Altissimo NOT
AnalogMan1
I'm compiling a list of players who DON'T (Or Didn't!!!) use the altissimo
register...so far I can think of Zoot Simms, Charlie Parker and Stan Getz.. can
you think of any others??
TIA,
Tom
Keith Gemmell
<analo...@aol.com> writes
Johnny Hodges
Paul Desmond
Sidney Bechet
--
Keith Gemmell
Music Hot-House
w\wind sheet music links
http://www.music-hot-house.demon.co.uk
KSQ
>
> Johnny Hodges
> Paul Desmond
> Sidney Bechet
I remember hearing a live recording of Desmond where, IIRC, he went up
to at least an A (surprised me too).
Keith Gemmell
writes
I stand corrected!
--
Keith Gemmell
Music Hot-House
Jamie O
>>> Paul Desmond
>>> Sidney Bechet
>>
>>I remember hearing a live recording of Desmond where, IIRC, he went up
>>to at least an A (surprised me too).
>
>I stand corrected!
I can't believe there are any top saxophonists (bar the classical ones, and, of
course, there are *so* many of those) who haven't delved into altissimo once or
twice.
~ Jamie
KSQ
>
> I can't believe there are any top saxophonists (bar the classical ones, and, of
> course, there are *so* many of those) who haven't delved into altissimo once or
> twice.
Funny you should put it that way, since altissimo is much more of
standard training for advanced classical players than it is for jazz
players. I knew plenty of jazz players when I was at the conservatory
who did little or no playing in the altissimo register, whereas no
classical player would have been able to get away with avoiding the
extended range.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is *not* a comment on relative
ability/worth/skill/merit/whatever. And I also knew a lot of jazzers
who *did* play altissimo, and quite well. It's just that I don't think
one would have a problem not using altissimo if one were otherwise a
highly skilled jazz player, but if one wants to play just about anything
from the advanced classical rep, one had better be comfortable with
altissimo playing.
And there are more good classical players out there than you might
think.
-- Sam
Travis Pollard
no jazz tune I've played actually required it. It seems the really great
players don't need altissimo to impress, they just play music.
--
-Travis, tra...@usit.net
Steve Carmichael
high A. Even though he took the canenza down the octave. Plus! Check out
the rrecording (if you can find it) Of Cassals cunducting the
Brandenburgh Concerti. It's Mule not a trumpet!
Have you check out John Edward Kelly ? He has to be the master of
altissimo!
Steve
Michael Watkin wrote:
>
> In article <37BD97...@javanet.com>, KSQ <kals...@javanet.com> wrote:
>
> >Jamie O wrote:
> >>
> >> I can't believe there are any top saxophonists (bar the classical ones,
> and, of
> >> course, there are *so* many of those) who haven't delved into altissimo
> once or
> >> twice.
> >
> >Funny you should put it that way, since altissimo is much more of
> >standard training for advanced classical players than it is for jazz
> >players. I knew plenty of jazz players when I was at the conservatory
> >who did little or no playing in the altissimo register, whereas no
> >classical player would have been able to get away with avoiding the
> >extended range.
> >
> >Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is *not* a comment on relative
> >ability/worth/skill/merit/whatever. And I also knew a lot of jazzers
> >who *did* play altissimo, and quite well. It's just that I don't think
> >one would have a problem not using altissimo if one were otherwise a
> >highly skilled jazz player, but if one wants to play just about anything
> >from the advanced classical rep, one had better be comfortable with
> >altissimo playing.
> >
> >And there are more good classical players out there than you might
> >think.
> >
> >-- Sam
>
> I agree totally no advanced classical saxophone player is going to get
> away without a good grasp of the altissimo. So much of the advanced
> literature has altissimo in it. Three of the pieces I am currently playing
> (Ibert Concertino, Itturalde Pequeno Czarda and Cockcroft Black and Blue)
> all have altissimo ranging right up to F above high F
> In fact one of the few classical players this century I can think of who
> didn't use altissimo was Marcel Mule and one of the earliest exponents
> (who's exercises have become standard literature in both jazz and classical
> circles) of altissimo was Sigurd Rascher, a classical saxophonist.
> In response to there are "so many of those", well there are quite a number
> but maybe the
> recordings of which are not quite so easy to come by. The classical
> saxophone isn't so
> popular in the US but hey there is a world outside the USA.
Merlin Allan Williams
Steve Carmichael <src...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Marcel Mule did use altissimo! He had to to play at the very least the
>high A. Even though he took the canenza down the octave. Plus! Check out
>the rrecording (if you can find it) Of Cassals cunducting the
>Brandenburgh Concerti. It's Mule not a trumpet!
I'm reasonably sure that Mule is playing soprano, not an alto in altissimo register on that recording.
Perhaps Paul C. could clarify?
Steve Carmichael
excited about Mule on Sopranino instead of a trumpet
PaulC135 wrote:
>
> << >Marcel Mule did use altissimo! He had to to play at the very least the
> >high A. Even though he took the canenza down the octave. Plus! Check out
> >the rrecording (if you can find it) Of Cassals cunducting the
> >Brandenburgh Concerti. It's Mule not a trumpet!
>
> I'm reasonably sure that Mule is playing soprano, not an alto in altissimo
> register on that recording.
>
> Perhaps Paul C. could clarify? >>
>
> Mule went through an evolving awareness/appreciation of the altissimo. His
> early recordings of the Ibert did not extend beyond the key range (except for
> the last note) while his later recordings did, undoubtedly acknowledging the
> logic and clarity of the scalar run at the bottom of the first page.
> Regarding the Bach Brandenbury, it is reported that Mule used a sopranino for
> that recording. It sounds so effective that it became a model for a suggestion
> I made to the conductor of the NJ Symphony when he lost his picc trumpet player
> for a series of concerts. (I already was playing the Milhaud Creation du
> Monde.) I wound up playing 16 performances of Bach Brand. #2 on sopranino that
> season. To stylize the sopranino playing (articulation, rhythm, vibrato, etc)
> to create a realistic illusion of a trumpet was a revealing and rewarding
> process.
> Paul Cohen
Michael Watkin
PaulC135
benja...@my-deja.com
"Travis Pollard" <tra...@usit.net> wrote:
> Yeah, so much of the classical saxophone repertoire requires
altissimo and
> no jazz tune I've played actually required it. It seems the really
great
> players don't need altissimo to impress, they just play music.
>
I can only think of one tune that I've played requiring it - Autumn
Nocturn (sp?) - a.k.a. the Mike Hammer theme, Lead Alto part required
an altissimo A
> --
> -Travis, tra...@usit.net
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Mitch
Mitch
Martin Williams
was not averse to popping out the odd high note. E.g. "What the world needs
now" album, the first cut has a super high D!
Martin
AnalogMan1 <analo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990818123544...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
b...@kesslerconsulting.com
it...I've slept once or twice since then :)
In article <37C86630...@mitchellandrus.com>,
PaulC135
plus the ta (french fingering) side key B flat fingering. This is not a
harmonic but an alternate fingering one which I have to use on my
MK VI as it doesn't have high F# key. >>
You may be more advanced than you think. This fingering is a harmonic, but one
that is so low on the series as to be accessable to most. Both the alternate
high E and F fingerings, as well as the F# with the side Bb key are harmonics
(from a different series than the standard high E, F and F# fingerings).
Paul Cohen
KSQ
Right. Paul beat me to it, but I was going to clarify my point about
the fact that there was no high F-sharp key at the time of Mule's early
recordings. The fingering Michael described *is* a
harmonic/altissimo/whatever-you-want-to-call-it fingering because there
is no new successive tone hole being opened to produce the F-sharp. The
palm key fingerings continue the pattern of opening a series of holes
rising up the stack; but, as Paul notes, the front E/F/F-sharp etc.
fingerings result from overblowing and producing a harmonic with holes
closed lower on the stack
-- Sam.
Michael Watkin
>
>Plus, keep in mind that Mule did play the F-sharp at the end of Ibert,
>and they didn't have high-F-sharp keys in those days.
High F-sharp can also be fingered with F plate (F plate and key no 2)
plus the ta (french fingering) side key B flat fingering. This is not a
harmonic but an alternate fingering one which I have to use on my
MK VI as it doesn't have high F# key. I also use this fingering when
moving quickly from F# to high G (like a trill) as you can play the G with
the F plate
(lift off key no 2), key 3 and the ta (side Bb key)
>> Michael Watkin wrote:
>> >
>> > In response to there are "so many of those", well there are quite a number
>> > but maybe the
>> > recordings of which are not quite so easy to come by. The classical
>> > saxophone isn't so
>> > popular in the US but hey there is a world outside the USA.
>
>Also, part of the point I was getting at is that there are many
>accomplished classical players out there who don't even *have*
>recordings. This applies to the jazz world as well, of course, but
>there are many more opportunities (at least where I live) to hear such
>jazz players live than there are to hear classical players live.
>
>Only a few of the established teachers of classical saxophone at major
>universities and conservatories have recordings available, to say
>nothing of their advanced students. And the level of student playing
>seems to be getting better all the time. Last year I heard a student
>quartet in Boston play Xenakis's _XAS_. It was amazing! You can't find
>them at your local record store (at least, not yet).
>
>-- Sam
Point taken.... :)
MW
Jamie O
That's a Parker tune, isn't it? I don't think it's Monk, and it's one of the
two. Maybe I'm getting confused with Night in Tunisia, I don't know.
~ Jamie
Jamie O
>but maybe the
>recordings of which are not quite so easy to come by. The classical
>saxophone isn't so
>popular in the US but hey there is a world outside the USA.
You're right, sorry; I guess I just don't listen to much of the classical
stuff. I just don't see the saxophone as something especially suited to
classical playing, for some reason, although it obviously can fill that role
very well, I keep expecting it to shoot off into a solo all the time...
~ Jamie
KSQ
>
> I guess I just don't listen to much of the classical
> stuff. I just don't see the saxophone as something especially suited to
> classical playing, for some reason, although it obviously can fill that role
> very well, I keep expecting it to shoot off into a solo all the time...
You could check out a piece like Denisov's _Sonata_, the third movement
of which sounds kind of like a jazz solo (seen through a serialist
prism...). Then there's the sonata by Phil Woods, which is very
jazz-oriented, and in fact requires improv. And there's an ensemble
piece by Donatoni called _Hot_ which features a doubler on tenor and
sopranino. I don't think there's a recording out at the moment, but
there's one in the works led by pianist and new-music specialist Stephen
Drury.
Michael Watkin
vic...@aol.comnojunk (Jamie O) wrote:
>>In response to there are "so many of those", well there are quite a number
>>but maybe the
>>recordings of which are not quite so easy to come by. The classical
>>saxophone isn't so
>>popular in the US but hey there is a world outside the USA.
>
>You're right, sorry; I guess I just don't listen to much of the classical
>stuff. I just don't see the saxophone as something especially suited to
>classical playing, for some reason, although it obviously can fill that role
>very well, I keep expecting it to shoot off into a solo all the time...
> ~ Jamie
There are many good "classical saxophone" repertoire pieces which are either
Jazz related or have Jazz influences. Bonneau's Piece Concertante Dans L'esprit
"Jazz" is very similar melodically to a lot of Gershwin (not saying that
Gershwin
is a Jazz composer-but one who was directly influenced by the culture of
Jazz around
him), Black and Blue (by Australian Saxophonist Barry Cockcroft). The second
movement of Itteralde's Suite Hellenique (called funky) has a written out
solo over a vamp
piano part, the composer gives direction to improvise on mixolydian mode)
There is a piece by I forget who called the evil's Rag which is quite
difficult and hundreds
more. I think to me personally the beauty of the classical saxophone
playing is that one
moment you can be playing a transcribed Bach Cello Sonata and the next
Ornithology.
I think there is much greater variety in repertoire, style and tone
colour. It's not often
that one who sees themself as a Jazz Saxophonist plays in a Classical
Saxophone style.
It is much more often the other way around. But this is of course not to
say that all
classical saxophonists therefore play jazz well. Most often the
specialist will play the
style they are accustomed to better than one they are not. But there are
a few players
who are able to double styles very well.
Michael Watkin
>PaulC135 wrote:
>>
>> << High F-sharp can also be fingered with F plate (F plate and key no 2)
>> plus the ta (french fingering) side key B flat fingering. This is not a
>> harmonic but an alternate fingering one which I have to use on my
>> MK VI as it doesn't have high F# key. >>
>>
>> You may be more advanced than you think. This fingering is a harmonic,
but one
>> that is so low on the series as to be accessable to most. Both the alternate
>> high E and F fingerings, as well as the F# with the side Bb key are harmonics
>> (from a different series than the standard high E, F and F# fingerings).
>
>Right. Paul beat me to it, but I was going to clarify my point about
>the fact that there was no high F-sharp key at the time of Mule's early
>recordings. The fingering Michael described *is* a
>harmonic/altissimo/whatever-you-want-to-call-it fingering because there
>is no new successive tone hole being opened to produce the F-sharp. The
>palm key fingerings continue the pattern of opening a series of holes
>rising up the stack; but, as Paul notes, the front E/F/F-sharp etc.
>fingerings result from overblowing and producing a harmonic with holes
>closed lower on the stack
>
>-- Sam.
First lemme say I find this a very interesting thread. Secondly I have to
ask then
when playing high F# with the F plate and the high F# (C5) key the 3rd
palm key (C4)
is opened (with the F plate) plus the high F# key is opened. Therefore
isn't this the same
length of tubing used as in the 3 palm keys and the high F# key? If so
doesn't this mean
you're not overblowing but fingering pitch?
Michael
Jon-o Addleman
(Michael Watkin) wrote:
>First lemme say I find this a very interesting thread. Secondly I have to
>ask then
>when playing high F# with the F plate and the high F# (C5) key the 3rd
>palm key (C4)
>is opened (with the F plate) plus the high F# key is opened. Therefore
>isn't this the same
>length of tubing used as in the 3 palm keys and the high F# key? If so
>doesn't this mean
>you're not overblowing but fingering pitch?
That's a good qusetion... here's what I've always been told: what's
happening is you're playing an A, and the high F (fork fingering)
opens the high F key a bit - note that it doesn't open all that much,
just a crack. What's it's really doing is acting as a vent - the same
as the octave key, so that the A overblows up to the F (it's actually
overblowing an octave plus a fifth, but for some reason that I'm not
sure of, it's REALLY sharp, so plays a decent F instead of an E).
To test this out, try using a forked F fingering, but adding some
other notes - for example you can play an E by adding your third
finger (as if you were playing G). It's often really out of tune
without the G# key, but that depends on the sax.
Now, the F# key is interesting though, because it's open above the F
that is supposedly just a vent... In that case, I really don't know
what's going on - I'd take my sax out now and attempt it, but I don't
think my neighbours would appreciate it right now... <G> But can
anyone say what happens if you're playing that high E, via forked F
and G that I mentioned above, and add the F#? Very curious indeed....
--
Jon-o Addleman
Jon-o Addleman
wrote:
>You're right, sorry; I guess I just don't listen to much of the classical
>stuff. I just don't see the saxophone as something especially suited to
>classical playing, for some reason, although it obviously can fill that role
>very well, I keep expecting it to shoot off into a solo all the time...
If you want to hear something more or less "traditional" classical, I
suggest the Glazunov concerto - it sounds like many other late
romantic pieces, so it's definitely mainstream classical in style.
However, it's GREAT on sax. What recordings do people suggest? I have
one by John Harle, and one by Rousseau (I expect he has several - this
is on a CD of concertos recorded in the late 60's). I'm not a huge fan
of either of them though - both play without much expression, and are
very flat sounding - they even leave out some of the written tempo
changes. Are there any recordings with a bit more fire to them?
--
Jon-o Addleman
KSQ
>
> First lemme say I find this a very interesting thread. Secondly I have to
> ask then
> when playing high F# with the F plate and the high F# (C5) key the 3rd
> palm key (C4)
> is opened (with the F plate) plus the high F# key is opened. Therefore
> isn't this the same
> length of tubing used as in the 3 palm keys and the high F# key? If so
> doesn't this mean
> you're not overblowing but fingering pitch?
But we were talking about the F-sharp played with the side B-flat key,
which obviously doesn't count as an instance of opening an additional
key in a succession up the stack.
GARY IN LA
them
Jon-o Addleman
<kals...@javanet.com> wrote:
>But we were talking about the F-sharp played with the side B-flat key,
>which obviously doesn't count as an instance of opening an additional
>key in a succession up the stack.
In that case, it's that you're overblowing a Bb instead of an A..
I find that fingering just about impossible, btw.. <G>
--
Jon-o Addleman