superimposition
Robby
different scales/chords/arpeggios over others. I've been messing
w/Leibman's 'Chromatic Approach' book a bit & am curious who uses any of
this & how.
I'd suggest discussing anything ranging from 'inside' stuff, like 'Em
pentatonic sounds good on Cmaj7' to 'outside' stuff like Coltrane
changes & tritone subs or 'Bbm pent is cool on G7' to ' I'm working on
resolving Dmaj7 lines over F7' etc.
I just started taping a vamp on one chord, then playing various 7th
chords (mi7, ma7,mi7b5,min/maj7, 7b5...) over it to learn what they
sound like- it's fun. Any takers? Peace, Robby
ps is there a jazz piano newsgroup?
jbd...@my-deja.com
I just took a lesson with Pat Martino, and he had some really
interesting chord sub ideas.
He seems to base everything on diminished and augmented ideas, from
which he derives all other chords and such. I can't say I understood
everything and I'm sure he only scratched the surface, but here's some
things I gathered:
Dominant chords:
A7 - if you inclued a #5 or a b9, you can extrapolate a Bb minor chord
over it. If you played piano rather than guitar, it would be easy to
see polychords like this. In a way, A7#5 is actually a Bbmin-over-Amaj
poly chord. I'm sure most have heard of this common sub. The minor
chord a half-step above the root of any dominant. this is what a lot
of the "altered scale" is all about.
Now if you take Bbmin and extend through a diminished cycle, you can
come up with Bbmin, Dbmin, Emin and Gmin. So all these can be then
superimposed on an A7 chord.
These are looked at not just as chord arpeggios, but also as scales and
just as in general, tonalities. If you chose Bbm, you could use the
chord arpeggio or any Bb minor type scale, or anything else that you
can extend onto when you think in Bb minor. You can then do the same
with Dbmin, Emin, or Gmin....or a mixture of any of them. I've tried
it with each one, and sure enough, it does work. Also, I'm not totally
sure that I got everything right with this, but I think that I'm right
as far as what I wrote here....Then he did other stuff with an
augmented cycle but I could only digest so much at one time.
He also does things like this with major7 and minor7 chords, but I only
got so far.
He also made a point that this is an idiomatic concept based on jazz
and more specificly on hard-bop and the like. These concepts don't
necessarily work with other idioms. Playing in Bbmin on the A7 chord
in a rock'n'roll song might not fit the characteristics dictated by
that idiom.
But check it out.
Josh
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Joey Goldstein
Robby wrote:
>
> Wondering if anyone wants to get a thread going about superimposing
> different scales/chords/arpeggios over others. I've been messing
> w/Leibman's 'Chromatic Approach' book a bit & am curious who uses any of
> this & how.
> I'd suggest discussing anything ranging from 'inside' stuff, like 'Em
> pentatonic sounds good on Cmaj7' to 'outside' stuff like Coltrane
> changes & tritone subs or 'Bbm pent is cool on G7' to ' I'm working on
> resolving Dmaj7 lines over F7' etc.
> I just started taping a vamp on one chord, then playing various 7th
> chords (mi7, ma7,mi7b5,min/maj7, 7b5...) over it to learn what they
> sound like- it's fun.
My first 12 lessons with Charlie Banacos involved something quite
similar to what you're messing around with. We examined 12 different 7th
chord types and looked for other 7th chords on which the tones of the
former chord were available as "chord sound". By "chord sound" I mean
either a chord tone or an available tension. I.e. Notes that fit the
chord vertically.
For example these 7 notes are the accepted list, by most musicians, of
the notes available as chord sound on a Cmaj7 chord:
C E G B D (9) F# (#11) A (13)
or
C D E F# G A B C expressed as a scale.
So any other 7th chord that is comprised of these 7 notes will sound
pretty good when superimposed over Cmaj7. Some of the possibilities are:
D7, Em7, F#m7b5, etc.
You can also create lines that use the chord tones of the secondary
chord I.e. the one being superimposed) as target notes surrounded by
chromatic approach notes a 1/2 step above or below the target note and
even with whole tone approach notes a whole step above and below the
target note. As long as you always resolve the inharmonics (i.e. notes
that do not fit the vertically on the primary chord) the entire 12 tone
scale can be utilised.
So a line that uses just the chord tones of D7 might be (all 1/4 notes):
D, A, F#, D |C, A, , |
That would work well over Cmaj7.
Here's a line of 1/16 notes that uses the notes in the above line as
resolution points for a more chromatic line:
C# E D G#, B Bb A F, F# E Eb C#, D Eb D Db|C A B G, A, , |
The new line can also be used over Cmaj7.
So lesson 1 involved creating these types of lines with the chord tones
of a maj7 chord serving as target notes while other types of 7th chords
were sounding.
For example, we used:
The tones of Cmaj7 over: Cmaj7 (1 3 5 7), Fmaj7 (5 7 9 #11), Bb7 (9 #11
13 b9), A7 (#9 5 b7 b9), Eb7 (13 b9 3 b13), E7 (b13 1 #9 5), Am7 (b3 5
b7 9), Dm7 (b7 9 11 13), F#m7b5 (b5 b7 b9 11), G7sus4 (4 13 1 10),
B7sus4b9 (b9 4 b13 1)
There were a few others too but I can't think of them right now.
Lesson 2 involved creating these types of lines using chord tones from a
dom7 chord as target notes while another 7th chord type was sounding.
For example, we used:
The tones of C7 over: C7 (1 3 5 b7), Bbmaj7 (9 #11 13 1), Gm7 (11 13 1
b3), Eb7 (13 b9 3 #11), E7 (b13 1 #9 b13), F#7 (#11 b7 b9 3), A7 (#9 5
b7 b9), Dm7b5 (b7 9 11 b13), Em7b5 (b13 1 b3 b5), Gm7b5 (11 13 1 b3),
Bbm7b5 (9 b5 13 1), Edim7 (b13 1 b3 b5), Gdim7 (11 bb7 1 b3), Bbdim7 (9
b5 bb7 1), Dbdim7 (maj7 b3 b5 bb7) and a few others.
Lesson 3 was similar but using chord tones of min7 chords as target notes.
Lesson 4 was similar but using chord tones of min7b5 chords as target notes.
Lesson 5 was similar but using chord tones of dim7 chords as target notes.
Lesson 6 was similar but using chord tones of dom7sus4 chords as target notes.
Lesson 7 was similar but using chord tones of dom7sus4b9 chords as
target notes.
Lesson 8 was similar but using chord tones of dom7#5 chords as target notes.
Lesson 9 was similar but using chord tones of maj7b5 chords as target notes.
Lesson 10 was similar but using chord tones of maj7#5 chords as target notes.
Lesson 11 was similar but using chord tones of dom7b5 chords as target notes.
Lesson 12 was similar but using chord tones of min(maj7) chords as
target notes.
The actual order was somewhat different but you get the idea.
This is a very "inside" sounding way of playing "outside".
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
JB Sack
found them extremely useful.
Jeff
Robby wrote in message <39F2C7...@javanet.com>...
>Wondering if anyone wants to get a thread going about superimposing
>different scales/chords/arpeggios over others. I've been messing
>w/Leibman's 'Chromatic Approach' book a bit & am curious who uses any of
>this & how.
>I'd suggest discussing anything ranging from 'inside' stuff, like 'Em
>pentatonic sounds good on Cmaj7' to 'outside' stuff like Coltrane
>changes & tritone subs or 'Bbm pent is cool on G7' to ' I'm working on
>resolving Dmaj7 lines over F7' etc.
>I just started taping a vamp on one chord, then playing various 7th
>chords (mi7, ma7,mi7b5,min/maj7, 7b5...) over it to learn what they
Mark Garvin
>I just took a lesson with Pat Martino, and he had some really
>interesting chord sub ideas.
That must have been fun. Pat seems to relate back to four patterns
rather than the normal guitaristic five, at least for the dim-to-Dom7
transform.
>He seems to base everything on diminished and augmented ideas, from
>which he derives all other chords and such. I can't say I understood
>everything and I'm sure he only scratched the surface, but here's some
>things I gathered:
>
>Dominant chords:
>
>A7 - if you inclued a #5 or a b9, you can extrapolate a Bb minor chord
>over it. If you played piano rather than guitar, it would be easy to
>see polychords like this.
Piano may be easier than guitar in that respect, but you can see it on
guitar. I was just thinking about the whole 'parallel visualization'
thing, and how tough it must be on sax. Bergonzi talks about sax
players visualizing notes in parallel on a staff line (form a sort
of cluster chord from scale fragments). That seems like it would add
some serious overhead to the process.
Anyway, for guitar, a common voicing of the 7+5-9 would be:
----------------
: : : : : :
----------------
1 : b7 : : :
----------------
: x : 3 +5 -9
----------------
: : : : : :
----------------
The top 3 notes form a minor chord. Or you could extend that:
The top 4 notes form a minor 6. (Conversely, you could build
the chord by finding a root and playing a min6 up a half step)
It might also seem that you could add a b5 where I put the 'x'
above, and that would allow you to use a Dom9 with the root on
the 'x'. IOW, the chord woult be a 7+5-5-9 (part of the ALT,
or Superlocrian series), and you could play up/down a tritone
almost as if you were playing over a straight Dom9. The diff
would be that the Dom9 would actually have a +4. (All of that
relates back to tritone subs, and it's covered well in texts.
The point was that you can often see those polychord patterns
in guitar voicings.)
BUT...the observation re tritone subs above assumes that the
base chord (7+5-9) is part of the Alt series. That's often
not the case.
In my experience, a 7+5-9 usually comes from the V7 chord of
a Harmonic Minor scale. Base scale would be analogous to
Phrygian with a major 3, or you could look at it as
Mixolydian b6, b9 (more appropriate derivation). In any
case, there's no b5 or #9.
Getting back to the minor6-up-a-halfstep: For melodies, you
could add in a Maj7 of the min6 chord.
C# D F A B
C#7 +5 b9 1 b9 3 +5 b7
D m6 Ma7 Ma7 1 m3 5 6
OK, so they're the same notes. <g> I'm suggesting it since I
find it easier to visualize the D min6 Ma7 notes than the notes
in a C#7 +5 b9.
MG
Mark Garvin
>Wondering if anyone wants to get a thread going about superimposing
>different scales/chords/arpeggios over others. I've been messing
>w/Leibman's 'Chromatic Approach' book a bit & am curious who uses any of
>this & how.
Well, Liebman uses it! <g> That book is great. Comes with a CD
now. It can save time if you just want to hear what Liebman is
up to. He uses those concepts when improvising, but they're
invariably woven into the context of the tune better than the
somewhat stark-sounding illustrations in the book. Without
any ramp into them, they sometimes sound a bit manufactured.
Check Liebman's band live to hear what he can do. (Guitarists:
Vic Juris usually plays with his quartet)
>I'd suggest discussing anything ranging from 'inside' stuff, like 'Em
>pentatonic sounds good on Cmaj7' to 'outside' stuff like Coltrane
>changes & tritone subs or 'Bbm pent is cool on G7' to ' I'm working on
>resolving Dmaj7 lines over F7' etc.
I've been into Jerry Bergonzi lately, so some will have to forgive
my umpteenth Bergonzi post (probably won't be my last. I love JB's
playing and melodic/harmonic concept).
Bergonzi does have a series of very methodical, well-sequenced books
(IMO). Also published by Advance Music (as is the Liebman book).
The 2nd book: "Pentatonics" covers a LOT of ground with juxtaposed
tonalities (Various types of pentatonics, too, by the way.)
Not nec. covered in the same sense as Dave Liebman; much of
Liebman's approach seems almost like classical polytonality, but
Bergonzi's 2nd book relates superimposed pentatonics back to root
tonality. I don't mean to sound like there's no overlap. Just
different approaches. Both interesting.
>I just started taping a vamp on one chord, then playing various 7th
>chords (mi7, ma7,mi7b5,min/maj7, 7b5...) over it to learn what they
>sound like- it's fun. Any takers? Peace, Robby
You're playing an additional CHORD over the first chord, or playing
an arpeggio?
MG
Bobby Knight
Robby wrote:
>
> Wondering if anyone wants to get a thread going about superimposing
I always thought that superimposing was having your in-laws stay with
you for more than two days :-)
bk
Joe Finn
Bobby Knight wrote:
Nice try, but that's a super-dooper imposition, baby. ...joe
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