bass/accompaniment from fake books
tyste...@aol.com
I was curious about how others here approach playing the bass parts
along with playing the right hand chords when playing accompaniment to
rock/pop song from fake books?
The reason why I ask is because, when I play accompaniment (I sing the
melody) my left hand bass parts are very simplisic. I usually don't
play anything but root notes in the bass, and I usually only play a
bass note when there is a chord change in measures where there are two
chord changes. If one chord is indicated above more than one measure, I
try to play try to add more bass notes here and there to give it a
sense of bass or when I feel more of a bottom is needed...adding a note
when I feel one is required to pick up the bottom end...sometimes
playing the bass as half notes...on other occassions I may add more
in...it just depends on how I feel like doing it...it's not always
worked out in an elaborate pattern. Usually, I just play by feel in
the bass. I almost always the bass note simultaneously with a right
hand part --- together. It's rare if I deviate from this.
So I was curious how others mix the left hand bass parts with the
right hand, or if you basically do what I'm doing when playing from
fake books? Or do you almost always work out your patterns
synchronizing the bass parts with the right hand parts by timing it all
out? By that I mean, look at a song like John Lennon's IMAGINE, where
a right hand chord is played on every beat, and the bass is played as
8th notes in alternating root octaves and this is pretty much the
pattern throughout....In order to pull this off, one would have to time
and subdivide this all out and practice it, by playing the chord and
lowest bass root together on the down beat, and on the upbeat play
another bass note an octave up from the first...and rock back and forth
in this pattern. I never synchronized my bass and chords together in
this way and trying that is a first for me from a fake book...I
described how I usually play and it's nothing like that when I play
from these fake books. . Just wondering how others approach this ----
looking for other perspectives.
thanks,
tysteel
Marc Sabatella
> along with playing the right hand chords when playing accompaniment to
> rock/pop song from fake books?
I assume we are talking about contexts in which the piano is the *only*
accompanying instrument? Obviously, if there is a bassist, the answer
changes tremendously, but it is also affected by whether there is a
guitar.
> The reason why I ask is because, when I play accompaniment (I sing the
> melody) my left hand bass parts are very simplisic. I usually don't
> play anything but root notes in the bass, and I usually only play a
> bass note when there is a chord change in measures where there are two
> chord changes. If one chord is indicated above more than one measure,
> I
> try to play try to add more bass notes here and there to give it a
> sense of bass or when I feel more of a bottom is needed...adding a
> note
> when I feel one is required to pick up the bottom end...sometimes
> playing the bass as half notes...on other occassions I may add more
> in...it just depends on how I feel like doing it...it's not always
> worked out in an elaborate pattern.
I couldn't have said it better.
> I almost always the bass note simultaneously with a right
> hand part --- together. It's rare if I deviate from this.
Well, that much I might suggest altering - your accompaniment will
usually be more effective to the extent you can create the illusion of
*separate* bass and chord parts.
> Or do you almost always work out your patterns
> synchronizing the bass parts with the right hand parts by timing it
> all
> out?
Some songs have such identifiable riffs or rhythmic hooks that seem to
require this sort of thing, but in general, no, it's not really what I
do. Admittedly, I play more often in a jazz context, where this is even
more true. But even in pop/rock context, it rarely seems necessary or
even appropriate to me to have anything to elaborately worked out.
> By that I mean, look at a song like John Lennon's IMAGINE, where
> a right hand chord is played on every beat, and the bass is played as
> 8th notes in alternating root octaves and this is pretty much the
> pattern throughout....In order to pull this off, one would have to
> time
> and subdivide this all out and practice it
Well, no, not really - this is something I'd consider simple enough to
just play without working it out (I would, however, work out exactly how
that RH figure works). But then, that's because I've played hundreds if
not thusdands of songs with basic accompaniment patterns like this.
When I think of something I'd still to work out between my hands, I mean
something with an actual independent part in the LH, or at least a
repeating pattern significantly more complex than alternating octaves.
I have a memory that "Lady Madonna" (a tune I think you mentioned
working on once upoin a time) has something like this.
---------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Music, art, & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
tyste...@aol.com
Thank you for your reply, Marc. I do appreciate it. I'm glad that we
have this newsgroup as a resource. I have attempted in the last
couple of weeks to seek out a piano teacher who specializes in playing
and teaching popular styles, but it's difficult to find one where I
live in Texas.
Visitor
ask a question in the same area in an earlier thread. I hoped that someone
would tell of a book that guides one to this skill.
If you have mastered the art of playing a credible base accompaniment to the
melody line played from a fake book, could you please tell us how you
learned this skill. Does one need to have a teacher? Do you first need to
learn to play jazz? Would learning harmony help?
In other words, is there an easy route to learning to play a credible bass
with the melody line and chord names played from a fake book?
Is there a structured book or course that limits the teaching to just a few
major keys as would one of the equivalent easy-to-get started
teach-yourself-guitar tutors?
GR
.
<tyste...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166059246.6...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Marc Sabatella
> skill.
There are several books on plaing form fake books. I can't really vouch
for any in particular. Most of what I have seen is not very useful.
> If you have mastered the art of playing a credible base accompaniment
> to the melody line played from a fake book, could you please tell us
> how you learned this skill. Does one need to have a teacher? Do you
> first need to learn to play jazz
I'm not clear on what you're after here - are you talking about
literally playing a bass line? This is something distinct form the more
general sort of accompaniment you'd normally play as a pianist, which
would consist of some combination of bass notes and chord voicings. If
you're looking for help with bass lines in particular - meaning you
don't need help with chords because you already have those figured out
in your right hand or someone else is going to be playing them - then
I'd look at books aimed at bassists. Again, no specific
recommendations, but here at least i have confidence that there *are*
several good choices out there.
if, on the other hand, you mean left hand accompaniment in general, the
first thing to realize is that playing a "bass" part is only half the
story, and its by far the easy half - play roots down low, and you've
got it covered. Far more difficult are the questions of how to voice
your chords, and how to strike a balance betwene bass and chord roles.
No easy answers here, and like I said, I am not sure there exist any
good books. A teacher could help, for sure. As could hours upon hours
of serious listening to hear what other pianists you admire do.
> Would learning harmony help?
Some, but it's not a prerequisite. More the other way around - it's
hard to learn harmony if you can play the piano effectively.
> Is there a structured book or course that limits the teaching to just
> a few major keys as would one of the equivalent easy-to-get started
> teach-yourself-guitar tutors?
Well, a teach-yourself guitaqr book could do that only if it limits the
music covered to music that actually *stays* in one key. You mention
jazz, and in general, jazz doesn't. So if you do have an interest in
that style, limiting yourself to just a few keys is probably a mistake.
tyste...@aol.com
Visitor wrote:
> I have read this question and answer with interest, because I have tried to
> ask a question in the same area in an earlier thread. I hoped that someone
> would tell of a book that guides one to this skill.
>
> If you have mastered the art of playing a credible base accompaniment to the
> melody line played from a fake book, could you please tell us how you
> learned this skill. Does one need to have a teacher? Do you first need to
> learn to play jazz? Would learning harmony help?
>
> In other words, is there an easy route to learning to play a credible bass
> with the melody line and chord names played from a fake book?
>
> Is there a structured book or course that limits the teaching to just a few
> major keys as would one of the equivalent easy-to-get started
> teach-yourself-guitar tutors?
>
> GR
Hi visitor,
When I first started playing from fake books, I made the mistake of
limiting myself to playing single line melodies note for note as shown
on the lead sheet with the right hand, and I comped block chords with
the left hand --usually in the middle C octave or octave below on the
keyboard. That might be OK when you are just getting a feel for
things, but it's supposed to be much more than that. I find it much
easier to simply sing the melody and accompany myself by playing chord
patterns with the right hand, and giving it some sense of bass with the
left hand. There are times when it's appropriate for me to play the
melody on the piano itself, such as in the intro of a song or during
the middle of the song where a solo is required. For instance, with a
song like the beatles "in my life", I'd play the intro melody as a line
as pretty much outlined in the fake book, and as the accompaniment to
that I alternate bass note octaves with the left hand --based on the
chord symbol. That's how I'd do that...But there are so many ways one
can do this, by that I mean, play the melody and accompaniment/bass on
piano at the same time. you can play both chords and melody in the
right hand and consign the bass to left hand duties, or play
accompaniment and melody with separate hands. But generally it's good
for you to learn the chords and sing the vocal melody --accompanying
yourself.
I suppose there are books out there that can help. There is a book
that shows a lot of patterns you can use called "The Pop Piano book" by
Mark Harrison. I really don't follow much of what's in there myself,
though. Another book that might help is "how to play piano despite
years of lessons". It simplifies a lot of theory and gives you a good
overview. You should also check out books such as "how to play
keyboards" and "how to play piano" by Roger Evans, if they have them at
your local bookstore. But learning everything you need to be
competent..that's going to be a tough road to hoe, as I have realized.
It takes a lot of hard work to learn how to play an instrument
reasonably(unless if it just comes naturally to you), and I still
haven't been able to do it well enough to my satisfaction.
A Mike A
chord voicings, Marc Sabatella wrote something on a newsgroup several years
ago that I have found very useful. Here's the link ...
http://www.justjazz.com/discussion-hypermail/Mar-97/00000066.htm
tyste...@aol.com
Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to check that out a little later on
and make some notes.
The only question I have about creating bass parts is which patterns
are most appropriate for different situations. I have developed a
habit --maybe it's a bad habit --of usually playing alternating root
octaves in the bass, at least I tend to do this on the notes I can
reach without drastically changing hand position. Notes C to E. I
guess I started doing this so that I would feel that I'm doing
something a bit more of interest than just playing the same root note
over and over in the measure.
I do wonder how appropriate it is to play alternating root octaves in
cases where it's not in a simple pattern with the RH chord part like it
is for instance in a song IMAGINE mentioned in my OP ---basically with
alternating octaves playes as 8ths in the bass, right hand chord played
on every beat. This alternating octaves bass pattern works fine for
a song like this, but as mentioned before I've fallen into a habit of
playing alternating octaves on other songs picked out of fake books,
but I don't follow the kind of simplistic pattern in the song above.
I usually end up playing each alternating bass note simultaneously with
a right hand chord part, and I don't think this sounds very good if
done for too long of a duration. if that's how I'm going to play
alternating octaves maybe there is no sense in doing it as I should
probably just break my habit and just keep playing the same root for
the entire measure? And in measures where I want to speed up the
right hand chords by playing them as 8ths, I end up speeding up the
left hand part to match it. Knowing that this won't sound good for
long, I try to slow down the bass part ..maybe playing the alternating
octaves as quarter notes or half notes..but if I'm doing this, why even
bother playing alternating octaves? Might as well strike the same bass
note twice in the measure instead of bothering to reach an octave up to
get the other one, right?
Visitor
Thank you for your comments. Firstly let me say that I have read many of
your replies to questions over the past year and would wish you to know that
as an "improver at about Grade 5" I appreciate the encouragement you give to
inexperienced pianists like myself.
> There are several books on plaing form fake books. I can't really vouch
> for any in particular. Most of what I have seen is not very useful.
I have four of these books and I do not find any of them useful. I was
hoping that someone would tell me of one that moves forward in "tiny baby
steps". I have not get found one that does this. I recently purchased "The
Pop Piano Book" by Mark Harrison and found this closer to what I am after
than any of the others, but he too (perhaps in an effort to be
comprehensive) introduces 12 keys, 7 modal scales, major and minor etc..
before you even reach page 10! My gut tells me it does not have to be this
complex! This approach has a touch of learning Latin (4 types of nouns, 5
types of verb) or Xhosa (14 types of noun, I think and a lot more for
verbs).
In contrast, I have a guitar tutor that is dead simple. You can be stumming
along, making music in around 15 minutes from start. There is clearly a
great opportunity for someone to write the equivalent book for the piano.
>> If you have mastered the art of playing a credible base accompaniment to
>> the melody line played from a fake book, could you please tell us how you
>> learned this skill. Does one need to have a teacher? Do you first need
>> to learn to play jazz
>
> I'm not clear on what you're after here - are you talking about literally
> playing a bass line? This is something distinct form the more general
> sort of accompaniment you'd normally play as a pianist, which would
> consist of some combination of bass notes and chord voicings. If you're
> looking for help with bass lines in particular - meaning you don't need
> help with chords because you already have those figured out in your right
> hand or someone else is going to be playing them - then I'd look at books
> aimed at bassists. Again, no specific recommendations, but here at least
> i have confidence that there *are* several good choices out there.
>
> if, on the other hand, you mean left hand accompaniment in general, the
> first thing to realize is that playing a "bass" part is only half the
> story, and its by far the easy half - play roots down low, and you've got
> it covered. Far more difficult are the questions of how to voice your
> chords, and how to strike a balance betwene bass and chord roles. No easy
> answers here, and like I said, I am not sure there exist any good books.
> A teacher could help, for sure. As could hours upon hours of serious
> listening to hear what other pianists you admire do.
Your comment is helpful in distinguishing between a "guitar type" of
strumming base played on the piano and a well voiced accompaniment, where
every note has meaning and context. I am after the former... let us call it
"piano strumming" for want of a better description.
When I was small I think the skill I am after was broadly referred to as
"syncopation" (although I realise that to a purist this is a particular mode
of playing off the beat).
I think that there was also an earlier time when a type of easy strumming
style was some referred to as "vamping". In the days of "music hall" I
believe people who could ad lib on any melody sometimes played a stylised
vamping accompanyment. I knew an old lady who could play in this way.
Another term I have heard in the context of an accompanyment style is
"playing stride". I am not sure what this sounds like, but I think it is a
jazz term.
>> Would learning harmony help?
>
> Some, but it's not a prerequisite. More the other way around - it's hard
> to learn harmony if you can play the piano effectively.
>
>> Is there a structured book or course that limits the teaching to just a
>> few major keys as would one of the equivalent easy-to-get started
>> teach-yourself-guitar tutors?
>
> Well, a teach-yourself guitaqr book could do that only if it limits the
> music covered to music that actually *stays* in one key.
Fair comment, but if you are at the level of "Michael Row the Boat" it would
be great if you had a dozen or more exercises that keep it simple. Is there
any book that does this?
You mention
> jazz, and in general, jazz doesn't. So if you do have an interest in that
> style, limiting yourself to just a few keys is probably a mistake.
I am not keen on jazz, and mention it only in the hope that this may give me
a route to a better skill.
Perhaps a trivial example makes the point I am after.
a. Picking out a melody in the right hand is easy.
b. Adding a root note (or octave) in the base at each chord change is
easy (can use the Fake Book as a guide for this)
c. Adding the Fake Book's suggested chord (played on the intermediate
beats) in the area below middle C is easy.
d. Playing an extra triad note in the right hand below the melody is
easy.
Now putting this all together should theoretically, in my opinion, sound
good, but it actually sounds very amateurish.
So, is there value in playing in the a..d manner described above in the hope
that one will be lead by one's ear to a better sound, or is this a dead-end?
Thank you for any comment
GR
Visitor
<tyste...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166162048.6...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I am very interested in your comments and since I have just started two
weeks of leave I shall have a good chance to explore your suggestions.
I have commented above (to Marc) about the Mark Harrison Book... which I do
not find helpful, because it just moves along too quickly.
I bought the "...despite years of lessons" book about 20 years ago and apart
from the title, which I find delicious, I did not find it took me forward.
I will have a look at it again. Thank you.
When I was in my teens (50 years ago!) several of us learned to strum along
on the guitar at about the same time. As each of us mastered something new
it was shared with the group. At the time there were others picking up the
same sorts of skills from each other on the piano, so eventually those who
stayed the road picked up quite a lot of skill. Your answer to my question
has a touch of this learning from another learner, and I thank you for it.
GR
Visitor
advice is far too grown-up for me.
I would put myself at about Grade 5 Piano, but am at the very, very
beginning of trying to play an credible accompaniment to a melody line. I
think this is called comping? Is that right?
The fact that the world is full of Fake Books makes me wonder where those
can use them get their skill. As I indicated above there seems to be a
wonderful opportunity for someone to write a very simple tutor that does not
introduce 12 keys x 2 (major/minor) in the first 10 pages.
If there is anyone out there that wants to be the author I will happily give
you the structure for the book. I has got to be a best seller. Any takers?
GR
"Mike A" <Mike A@.......> wrote in message
news:fHzgh.209111$Fi1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
tyste...@aol.com
To be quite honest, I'm kind of jealous of guitar players. All they
have to do is strum the chords on guitar and sing and that is generally
considered acceptable for them. But for those of us who play piano, we
are expected to balance out more things on our instrument, including
adding bass along with chords, and if we don't balance these out well,
our playing isn't considered adequate. Guitarists get by with much
less.
I guess maybe the way I approach piano is probably the way a guitarist
may approach his instrument. I liked to work out the chords, and when
I sing the melody, I always have something going on with the right hand
part. If it's a rock song, a lot of times I stick to simple patterns,
such as either playing block chords or playing them as broken chords
(such as playing 3rd and 5th of chord on downbeat, playing the root on
the upbeat) but I really don't like working out the bass whatsoever.
I don't like juggling all of that...the guitarist doesn't have to
juggle this all, and it's kind of not fair. I just try to keep it
simple. I just play the root note of the chord indicated on the
chart as my bass note...playing it whenever I "feel" the need to give
the music a sense of bass. I don't switch fingers on repeating the
bass note either, like they do with classical music. Maybe I should
but I don't. I like it when my left hand stays in one position....if
I have to reach a left hand note out of reach for my bass, like Bb, I'd
just stretch the thumb over there and hit it at the chord change, and
return back to postion. Sometimes I add more to it, such as a line
here and there, but that's just for fluff.
I don't know how good my approach is...I'm sure it is pretty poor by a
lot of others standards because sometimes such as inadequate bass sound
won't work for some other songs. I don't think this would work well
for piano songs that have more drive in the bass...such as a lot of
beatles songs like 'let it be' and 'hey jude' which have alternating
octaves in the bass.
A Mike A
news:em16f3$585$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> Perhaps a trivial example makes the point I am after.
> a. Picking out a melody in the right hand is easy.
> b. Adding a root note (or octave) in the base at each chord change is
> easy (can use the Fake Book as a guide for this)
> c. Adding the Fake Book's suggested chord (played on the intermediate
> beats) in the area below middle C is easy.
> d. Playing an extra triad note in the right hand below the melody is
> easy.
>
> Now putting this all together should theoretically, in my opinion, sound
> good, but it actually sounds very amateurish.
>
Hi Visitor,
Here are some (non-expert) thoughts:
- If you can do a.-d. above easily, and at the same time, then you're
well on your way. Keep practicing. It definitely will evolve from there.
- Think about exactly what makes it sounds amateurish, and work on those
specific things. Here are three things you might consider:
1 - You might not be keeping good time. A steady rhythm is
incredibly important to a good sound. Even a bone-simple arrangement,
played in steady rhythm, can sound good. Get a groove going.
2 - It might be sounding repetitive, and may have an "oom-pah"
flavor to it as you alternate between LH root bass note and LH chord ...
root-chord-root-chord-root-chord-oom-pah. Some suggestions: Instead of
playing the root all the time, alternate playing the root and the fifth.
Root-chord-fifth-chord. This will still be repetitive, but at least you'll
have different notes going on. Also, mix it up a little.
Root-chord-chord-fifth, etc.. On some measures, just chord. On some
measures, arpeggiate chords rather than just playing all the chord tones
together. Maybe some walking bass sprinkled in. In other words: create
variety.
3 - You might be using chords that are too stripped down for the
level you're at, and it might be time to learn some richer chord voicings.
For example, some beginning level songbooks use only triad chords: "C"
(=C-E-G), "F" (=F-A-C), "G" (=G-B-D) etc. Adding some extensions can make a
big difference. You may already be know this, but just to explain what I
mean: If you do nothing more than add the dominant seventh to the "V"
chord, you'll get a much richer sound. In the key of C, the V chord is the
G chord. The dominant seventh of G is the note F. So, G7 = G-B-D-F.
Adding that F makes a big difference. Likewise adding a major seventh to
the "I" chord. In the key of C, the I chord is the C chord. The major
seventh is the note B. So, Cma7 = C-E-G-B. ("I" and "V" are with reference
to the scale tones of the key. In the key of C, the first scale tone is C,
so the C chord is the "I" chord. The fifth scale tone is G, so the G chord
is the "V" chord.) And so on.
Hang in there!
Marc Sabatella
> beginning of trying to play an credible accompaniment to a melody
> line. I think this is called comping? Is that right?
Yes.
> The fact that the world is full of Fake Books makes me wonder where
> those can use them get their skill.
Good question. I'd say very few would answer "from books". Most
probably more or less taught themselves through years of trial and error
and lots of listening. Quite a few probably got some lessons along the
way.
> As I indicated above there seems to be a wonderful opportunity for
> someone to write a very simple tutor that does not introduce 12 keys x
> 2 (major/minor) in the first 10 pages.
For the reaosns I outlined, what you are accustomed to on guitar simple
cannot exist for piano. The results would be *terrible*. Unlike the
guitar method, which can produce results that sound good in a short
period of time, taking the same approach on piano would not only take
far longer, but would produce *far* worse results. Terrible, actually.
A complete waste of time.
neqer
> I have read this question and answer with interest, because I have
> tried to ask a question in the same area in an earlier thread. I hoped
> that someone would tell of a book that guides one to this skill.
>
> If you have mastered the art of playing a credible base accompaniment
> to the melody line played from a fake book, could you please tell us
> how you learned this skill. Does one need to have a teacher? Do you
> first need to learn to play jazz? Would learning harmony help?
>
> In other words, is there an easy route to learning to play a credible
> bass with the melody line and chord names played from a fake book?
>
> Is there a structured book or course that limits the teaching to just a
> few major keys as would one of the equivalent easy-to-get started
> teach-yourself-guitar tutors?
You may try this book "Solo Jazz Piano, the linear approach" (Neil
Olmstead) : it starts from scratch : roots-chord only, roots-five,
root-five chromatic, walking bass, etc... Each chapter is very short
and easy to understand, with written and recorded examples to pratice
on at the end.
Jacques
neqer <ne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is a nice book, but I don't think it's quite what "Visitor" is
looking for. Like every other jazz piano book I've seen, it expects you
to learn the chords in all keys right at the start. Indeed, unlike some
jazz books I've seen, it expects you to learn *altered* chords in all
keys right at the start!
If you don't actually want to play jazz, I doubt that learning jazz is a
particularly efficient way of learning other styles. You need to decide
what style you want to play, and focus on that. If you can't find/afford
a suitable teacher, you need a book about that style. I think I have
seen it said (by way of criticism) that Simon Schott's "Play Piano by
Ear" focuses on certain keys only, but I don't know this book myself.
Mark Harrison's "Pop Piano Book" deals with various non-jazz styles, but
it isn't a particularly gentle approach.
--
Jacques
news
news:mail-76A7DA.1...@news.plus.net:
>> >
>> > In other words, is there an easy route to learning to play a
>> > credible bass with the melody line and chord names played from a
>> > fake book?
>> >
One way is to get the program "Band In A Box" from PGMusic.com. You type in
the chords for a song and it generates an arrangement. There's wide veriety
of styles to pick from. The results aren't bad. Among a few million of its
features it will display any generated part on screen in real time and let
you loop thru a section if you like. You can also print out and part.
They might have a demo available.