Is $21,500 a fair price for a new Yamaha C3
fat_casper
I was quoted $21,500 for a new Yamaha C3. Is this a reasonable price?
Martin Paton
>Hi,
>
>I was quoted $21,500 for a new Yamaha C3. Is this a reasonable price?
Sounds very expensive to me.
Ambrose
>
> I was quoted $21,500 for a new Yamaha C3. Is this a reasonable price?
The dealer in my area lists that same price on their C3s. Have you
done some comparison shopping? Before I bought my C3 I visited dealers
in cities within an hour drive. I found large differences in prices.
Since these dealers can't advertise in you local phone directory,
you'll have to find them another way.
Ambrose
Niles Duncan
of some lower prices for them in other areas though,
Niles Duncan
http://www.pianosource.com
fat_casper
Thanks for your help.
After looking around some more, I think that price is pretty much what
the piano goes for new, but not a particularly good deal (although the
dealers will tell you it's a great deal) I get the impression that
these pianos are always on sale at that price.
I think I may get more for my money with a used piano. Today I looked
at a Yamaha C5 circa 1990. The dealer was asking $15,500 for it. It
comes with a 5 year warranty on parts and labor. To my ear, it sounds
fine, but not great. I think it may just not be voiced to my taste.
The dealer says that if I make an appointment with their tech, they'd
prep it to my liking so I can better evaluate it. I'll take them up on
their offer.
Martin Paton
>I think I may get more for my money with a used piano. Today I looked
>at a Yamaha C5 circa 1990. The dealer was asking $15,500 for it. It
>comes with a 5 year warranty on parts and labor. To my ear, it sounds
>fine, but not great. I think it may just not be voiced to my taste.
>
>The dealer says that if I make an appointment with their tech, they'd
>prep it to my liking so I can better evaluate it. I'll take them up on
>their offer.
Beware. Some dealers will place the piano with a group of quality
pianos that have been badly set up to try and convince you that the
one they want you to buy is better.
Just out of interest, in the UK you can get a CF III-S (Secondhand,
circa 1990) for £20k (about $28k). C3s go for about £9000 new (about
$13,500). For some reason Yamahas are about 1/2 the cost they are in
the states.
Niles Duncan
>at a Yamaha C5 circa 1990. The dealer was asking $15,500 for it. It
>comes with a 5 year warranty on parts and labor. To my ear, it sounds
>fine, but not great. I think it may just not be voiced to my taste.
>
>The dealer says that if I make an appointment with their tech, they'd
>prep it to my liking so I can better evaluate it. I'll take them up on
>their offer.
>
Might as well let them do it. I think the C5 is a lot more piano than the C3
and a big step up, although I'm not crazy about either. Make an appointment
with your tech to check it out too if you decide you are interested. Check on
the serial number, because in my neck of the woods dealers are known to lie
like crazy about the age of these pianos.
Niles Duncan
http://www.pianosource.com
Sonic
here..
Bri
"Martin Paton" <mpa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctk5fu476t21j16c6...@4ax.com...
Rick Clark
>The dealer says that if I make an appointment with their tech, they'd
>prep it to my liking so I can better evaluate it. I'll take them up on
>their offer.
Virtually all Yamahas go bright as the hammers wear down. It's the
most predictable thing in the world. The solution can be either hammer
reshaping (filing) or hammer replacement. Maybe some very shallow
needling after that. You don't really "voice" them in the traditional
sense. It has to do with their hammer design. Whether you need to file
or replace will depend on the degree of wear. If a tech is coming in
and just stabbing it with needles, that is not the way, and it can
actually ruin a Yamaha type hammer. Yamaha very much warns against
this. So be aware.
Also be aware that even when they are very new and in perfect
condition, there are people who are going to object to the degree of
brightness they have. Do not attempt to voice them down to be more
mellow than the factory intends. You can ruin the hammers right quick.
Also be aware that a lot of techs are not good filers, and the hammers
come out unevenly shaped. If the dealer does the work, be sure to have
it checked by a tech of known good quality. Your 5 year warranty is no
good if they don't have the skills and knowledge to do it right.
Along with hammer filing or replacement, the piano will also need
regulation. The same wear and tear that makes the hammers wear down
also causes the regulation to go out. If you don't have a good
regulation done (again, the dealer tech needs to be good, not just a
"tooner") you will never know what kind of performance the piano may
be capable of.
All in all, prepping a used piano with worn hammers can be an awful
lot of work. And a ten year old piano that was used intensely (hours
a day) may be ready for what amounts to a minor rebuilding- much
beyond "prep". A lot of dealers don't want to do this work, or may be
ignorant about it, or may not have a good tech working for them.
But now you, as the consumer, are informed. Caveat emptor.
Also, I ditto what Niles says. Make sure you're getting the age piano
the dealer claims.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Fabian Stolz
> the states.
This is due to Yamaha's exclusive-dealer-policies in the states.
MfG
Dave Andrews
No it's not. At least not a very big portion of that differential is
associated with distribution policies.
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
Tom Shaw
TS
"Dave Andrews" <dwas...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020528120732...@mb-cu.aol.com...
Dave Andrews
<< Huh? >>
One of your more lucid posts, Tom.
No -- it was a joke -- I was kidding. Stop. Stop. Not another cane whipping.
Aaauuugghhh!!!
=========================================
> Fabian Stolz wrote:
>
> > For some reason Yamahas are about 1/2 the cost they are in
> > the states.
>
> << This is due to Yamaha's exclusive-dealer-policies in the states. >>
>
> No it's not. At least not a very big portion of that differential is
> associated with distribution policies.
===========================================
Alright, here it is from the top. Fabian Stolz says that
"exclusive-dealer-policies" account for US prices twice what they are in
Europe. He is assuming that if Yamaha were distributed in a more
non-descriminate manner (i.e. many dealers selling Yamaha in the same market)
that this 50% pricing differential would disappear. This is bogus. The only
thing that would disappear is dealers trying to survive. If anything, margins
on Yamaha pianos are low in many US markets because Yamaha US oversaturates
their distribution in many markets compared to other product lines.
The wholesale costs of Yamaha pianos are completely in line with the retail
prices charged here in the US when compared to all other pianos sold in the US,
and "exclusive-dealer-policies in the states" as an explanation for the
differences in price between the US and other countries is a non-starter.
Yamaha's pricing policies with other countries has everything to do with
"whatever the market will bear". In the US, we are essentially subsidizing
lower prices in Europe. Welcome to global affluence. More like effluent.
;-)
Fabian Stolz
they calculate their prices. But the exclusive-dealer or
protected-local-market policy theories sound more believable to me then the
poor-US-people-have-to-pay-for-lower-prices-elsewhere story.
Example: Prices like 7,500 USD for a CVP-207 can't be related to true
manufacturing costs in any halfways sane way, 4,900 EUR seem more
reasonable, though I've seen dealers offer this CVP for less than 4,000 EUR
in Germany.
Ok, a CVP is a digital instrument and things might be different regarding
acoustic pianos, but other brands' prices don't show such huge discrepancies
between US- and european prices.
MfG
Dave Andrews
<< Well, I'm neither a US retailer nor a Yamaha employee, so I don't know how
they calculate their prices. >>
Exactly. You don't know.
That's why when someone like you comes along and announces a reason in a more
or less conclusive and dogmatic fashion that is completely off base, I post a
response to balance out the misinformation when it's part of my knowledge base.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but your theory has at its core a
malicious intent -- namely, defaming US dealers.
<< But the exclusive-dealer or protected-local-market policy theories sound
more believable to me then the
poor-US-people-have-to-pay-for-lower-prices-elsewhere story. >>
If this were to be true (and virtually every major piano manufacturer has
exclusive distribution policies for their products in the US market) then why
don't
<< other brands' prices don't show such huge discrepancies
between US- and european prices. >> ?
When you come to grips with this contradiction, then you will be in a better
position to opine on the topic knowledgeably. Flying by your intuition is fine
as long as you preface your comments with "it seems to me" or "I suspect".
When you announce a "truth" in response to a post, it really ought to be true,
don't you think?
I have no direct Yamaha ties currently, but I have participated in Yamaha
factory authorized sales events in the past and have friends that are Yamaha
dealers. The last thing anybody in the industry needs is a round about
accusation that they are price gouging. If wholesale costs were the same on
both continents, and it was limited distribution policies that made up the big
price differential, then the Europeans would all be losing big bucks on each
and every transaction. I know roughly what the wholesale prices are in the US,
and what makes up the costs of doing business. Some dealers are higher than
others, but nothing like what we're talking here.
fat_casper
I've tried out several new Yamahas and I like the tone of pianos I
listened to (mainly the C3-C7 line).
This particular used C5 sounded overly bright, at times bordering on
harsh. It doesn't sound unpleasant, just not as nice as the new
pianos.
I looked at the hammers, and they did not seem worn to me. No grooves
or anything like that.
How much can I hope to achieve by having a decent tech work on a piano
(assuming that the piano is in good condition)?
I'd probably ask the tech to reduce the brightness and try to get the
piano to sound richer overall (especially in the lower notes) in an
effort to get the piano to sound more like the new pianos I liked.
Is this too much to ask?
pianodoctor@mindspr*ng.com (Rick Clark) wrote in message news:<3cf370a...@news.mindspring.com>...
Fabian Stolz
how
> they calculate their prices. >>
>
> Exactly. You don't know.
>
> That's why when someone like you comes along and announces a reason in a
more
> or less conclusive and dogmatic fashion that is completely off base, I
post a
> response to balance out the misinformation when it's part of my knowledge
base.
> I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but your theory has at its core
a
> malicious intent -- namely, defaming US dealers.
First of all it wasn't my intent to defame anyone here. I based my
statements on discussions I read at the CVP Users Group (www.cvpug.com)
which is not known to be hostile towards Yamaha or its authorized dealers.
Many people there keep wondering (and actually ordering their instruments
from abroad disregarding warranty or special US-edition [yes, there is an
exclusive US-edition of the CVP] issues) about the price differences. IIRC
it was Wally Laferty himself who voiced the opinion I stated in my initial
post. He also afirmed that Yamaha USA is turning its back to smaller dealers
and concentrating on bigger dealers, which makes it difficult for some of
the smaller ones to survive on the market. Since Wally is highly regarded in
the community and wasn't the only one to blame Yamaha's exclusive
distribution policies for the higher US prices I had no reason to doubt this
was true.
> << But the exclusive-dealer or protected-local-market policy theories
sound
> more believable to me then the
> poor-US-people-have-to-pay-for-lower-prices-elsewhere story. >>
>
> If this were to be true (and virtually every major piano manufacturer has
> exclusive distribution policies for their products in the US market)
Why? Ok, I understand that it is important for any manifacturer to be able
to rely on a net of authorized dealers to make sure that customers get the
best out of their instruments, but OTOH it is a fact that the lack of
competition in protected markets based on exclusiveness leads to higher
retailer prices.
> << other brands' prices don't show such huge discrepancies
> between US- and european prices. >> ?
>
> When you come to grips with this contradiction, then you will be in a
better
> position to opine on the topic knowledgeably. Flying by your intuition is
fine
> as long as you preface your comments with "it seems to me" or "I suspect".
> When you announce a "truth" in response to a post, it really ought to be
true,
> don't you think?
???
I don't see the contradiction... I made a comparison based on digital
instruments and came to the conclusion, that the lowest retail prices I
could find for Roland products in the US don't differ as much from the
cheapest prices I was able to find in Europe as their Yamaha pendants.
> I have no direct Yamaha ties currently, but I have participated in Yamaha
> factory authorized sales events in the past and have friends that are
Yamaha
> dealers. The last thing anybody in the industry needs is a round about
> accusation that they are price gouging. If wholesale costs were the same
on
> both continents, and it was limited distribution policies that made up the
big
> price differential, then the Europeans would all be losing big bucks on
each
> and every transaction. I know roughly what the wholesale prices are in
the US,
> and what makes up the costs of doing business. Some dealers are higher
than
> others, but nothing like what we're talking here.
Of course, no one likes bad publicity.
Why are wholesale costs suposed to be higher in the US than in Europe? AFAIK
taxes are much lower in the US (4-7% vs 16-21% in Europe), energy costs are
much lower, incidental wages costs in Europe are higher too and the
transport costs from Japan/Australia (where the CVP's are manufactured)
should be cheaper too. So where's the reason for that huge difference in
prices (up to 80%)?
MfG
Dave Andrews
<< First of all it wasn't my intent to defame anyone here. I based my
statements on discussions I read at the CVP Users Group (www.cvpug.com)
which is not known to be hostile towards Yamaha or its authorized dealers. >>
The rationale for the defamation is beyond the scope of my interest. However,
when you assert (or repeat an assertion) that prices are twice as high here as
in Europe and lay the blame squarely on US retailers overpricing products based
on the enablement of Yamaha's US distribution policies, it is defamatory
because first of all, it is an incorrect assertion that casts retailers in a
poor light; and secondly, because it has the effect of encouraging consumers to
avoid US retail sources in favor of overseas transactions. Do you see what I'm
saying? Therefore, when you repeat posts from another newsgroup as _fact_,
especially statements like this that are just flat out wrong, you become a part
of the problem regardless of your intent. Reposting them can be considered
libelous under certain circumstances, expecially if damages can be proven.
<< Many people there keep wondering (and actually ordering their instruments
from abroad disregarding warranty or special US-edition [yes, there is an
exclusive US-edition of the CVP] issues) about the price differences. IIRC
it was Wally Laferty himself who voiced the opinion I stated in my initial
post. >>
You might want to let Wally know that if he ticks off the wrong people, he may
end up in court.
<< He also afirmed that Yamaha USA is turning its back to smaller dealers and
concentrating on bigger dealers, which makes it difficult for some of
the smaller ones to survive on the market. >>
This is all part of the ebb and flow of retail. Virtually every manufacturer
dabbles in rampant stupidity. Some immerse themselves in it totally -- ala
Baldwin over the past 7 years. Baldwin built themselves into a powerhouse over
several generations by putting small folks with limited resources but with some
aptitude in business -- they provided a consignment program for floor planning
instruments. They provided retail financing for their customers. They
provided training in the form of sales schools at the factories and encouraged
and subsidized costs for everybody involved with their products. Baldwin grew
to an enviable position with a dealer organization that was loyal beyond all
reason, by cultivating small operators -- many of whom became very large
operators and quite well off financially. One of the biggest factors in
Baldwin's undoing is that, once their stature was secure in the marketplace,
they moved away from small operators and severed relationships with loyalists
to go with big gun retailers who exhibited no loyalty beyond the usual and
customary "what can you do for me today". The dumped their consignment
program, they sold off their retail financing arm, their trucking company, and
anything else that resembled dealer support, and in just 7 years of rampant
stupidity, Baldwin has nothing left except a delusional guy at Gibson trying to
hawk pianos like guitars. I would venture to guess that Yamaha is not that
stupid and will not follow suit, but who knows? I'm not a crystal ball type.
I only have a keen sense for the obvious.
<< Ok, I understand that it is important for any manifacturer to be able
to rely on a net of authorized dealers to make sure that customers get the
best out of their instruments, but OTOH it is a fact that the lack of
competition in protected markets based on exclusiveness leads to higher
retailer prices. >>
If everybody has Yamaha in Atlanta, then guess which guy sells the most?
Lowest price, right? Okay, now, after everybody else discovers the game, they
stop displaying the product, perhaps selecting a few hot selling models to
stock, and special ordering the rest. Now, the non-stocking dealer has a cost
advantage -- let Yamaha stock everything in the warehouse, and I take a
deposit, deliver the unit, pay Yamaha -- no floor plan costs. Now the big gun
dealer with the lowest price no longer has the lowest price because the guy
with a lower overhead can undercut him. He says -- whoa, this is nuts. Why
should I stock this stuff when I can just order it out of the catalogue like
the rest of these schmucks? Pretty soon, nobody stocks anything with the
Yamaha name on it. You want a Yamaha? Here's a picture and a CD of it
playing. I'll order one for you if you like it, but no, I don't have it here.
If you don't like it once I get it in, there will be a 15% restocking fee to
cover my hassle (read freight and floor plan expense). In the meantime, if
you're looking for a Yamaha, why not try this XYZ model that I have right here
(limited distribution) that I can sell you (at a decent margin) and it blows
the Yamaha away, etc. Get it? Limited distributorship is designed to allow
dealers to maintain profitability, not to fix prices at unrealistically high
levels. It also assures the manufacturer of adequate respresentation in the
marketplace.
There are probably about a dozen other factors here as well, but I think that
my illustration above pretty much gives you the big picture sans the rest of
the gory details of retail realities -- like competing for a dealers "open to
buy" with various incentives, etc.
<< ???
I don't see the contradiction... I made a comparison based on digital
instruments and came to the conclusion, that the lowest retail prices I
could find for Roland products in the US don't differ as much from the
cheapest prices I was able to find in Europe as their Yamaha pendants. >>
Roland is a limited distributorship product line for most of their products
here in the US -- just exactly the same as Yamaha. If your theory held any
water at all, then Roland would also have the same discrepancies between the US
and Europe. They don't because Roland in Europe apparently has the same
wholesale costs. Therefore, you have a huge gap in the logical basis of your
theory.
<< Of course, no one likes bad publicity.
Why are wholesale costs suposed to be higher in the US than in Europe? >>
They're not "supposed to be higher" but apparently they are according to you
and others I've heard from. I already answered this in a previous post and you
tried to refute it, but here it is again in a more simple and direct form.
Europeans are broke. Americans are rich. You wanna' sell to Europeans and
kick the competitions' butts over there? Sell it cheaper where poor people can
buy it. But then, if you overcompensate, you have to make up the loss
somewhere. So sell it at higher prices to rich Americans to make up the
difference. They have money to burn and an "irrational exuberance" towards the
stock market, Yamaha, Steinway and Mercedes (among other things). They'll
gladly pay up.
<< So where's the reason for that huge difference in
prices (up to 80%)? >>
Economics has been a subject set adrift for way too many years in the public
school education system here because of the agenda of liberals in undermining
the free enterprise system. The product is easy to see -- tree huggers
condemning evil corporate America. This is not a "conspiracy theory" whacked
out perspective. It is fact. I would never have had to explain any of this to
the average non-business pedestrian 25 years ago. It's really sad that I do
now.
Once again, Fabian, I'm not picking on you. This is a symptom that extends to
the vast majority of the population in the US, and why we're on an economic
collision course with a socialistic government that will help save us from
ourselves by giving us something to eat and a place to live and maybe a small
allowance. Forget about being a rugged individualist anymore.
I'm depressed.
pianoguy
> Virtually every manufacturer
> dabbles in rampant stupidity.
The history of the piano business in seven words.
--
pianoguy
return email disabled
Jory A. Olson
news:10226003...@emil.nef.wh.uni-dortmund.de...
Hate to ruin a good pissing match, Dave and Fabian, but there is a very
simple explanation to this. It's called "economics". Right now the US
dollar is very strong against most every other currency, including the
Japanese Yen. Consequently, good purchased from Japan in the US will cost
more than the same goods sold to other countries like the UK where the
exchange rate is more even.
This is why places like www.pianodepot.com located in Belgium can clean up
selling digital pianos to Americans at about 1/2 to 2/3 the price they would
pay locally.
For example, a Roland KR-577 purchased in the US is about $6K (USD) or even
more. From www.pianodepot.com the same piano can be had for $3500 (USD).
It's simple economics and the reason why many US corporations, particularly
electronic manufacturers are lobbying the Bush administration to change the
policy of a strong dollar.
Jory
Fabian Stolz
things in your post I can't accept:
> The rationale for the defamation is beyond the scope of my interest.
However,
> when you assert (or repeat an assertion) that prices are twice as high
here as
> in Europe and lay the blame squarely on US retailers overpricing products
based
> on the enablement of Yamaha's US distribution policies, it is defamatory
> because first of all, it is an incorrect assertion that casts retailers in
a
> poor light; and secondly, because it has the effect of encouraging
consumers to
> avoid US retail sources in favor of overseas transactions. Do you see
what I'm
> saying? Therefore, when you repeat posts from another newsgroup as
_fact_,
> especially statements like this that are just flat out wrong, you become a
part
> of the problem regardless of your intent. Reposting them can be
considered
> libelous under certain circumstances, expecially if damages can be proven.
Ok, then I defamed them without intending to do so. BTW I use to think you
could say anything you _believed/thought_ in the US, no matter if it's true
or wrong... I guess you call that freedom of speech...
> << Many people there keep wondering (and actually ordering their
instruments
> from abroad disregarding warranty or special US-edition [yes, there is an
> exclusive US-edition of the CVP] issues) about the price differences. IIRC
> it was Wally Laferty himself who voiced the opinion I stated in my initial
> post. >>
>
> You might want to let Wally know that if he ticks off the wrong people, he
may
> end up in court.
Now I'm sorry for mentioning his name... I did some search over in the group
and discovered it were mainly other people who stated what I expressed
before.
Isn't that an argument against markets of limited competition?
I'm neither a kid nor am I stupid, no need to talk to me as if I was a
complete fool. And btw as you might have understood from my last post (you
even quoted it yourself above) I _am_ aware of the fact that manufacturers
depend on a net of competent dealers and their showrooms and as a customer I
am _willing_ to bear higher prices if I get a decent support from my dealer
and for having the opportunity to try instruments at a showroom. Anyway I
keep thinking that US prices, or at least the recommended prices _are_ at <<
unrealistically high levels >>. Not that I cared to much... I buy my
instruments in Europe anyway, but it still strikes me odd.
> There are probably about a dozen other factors here as well, but I think
that
> my illustration above pretty much gives you the big picture sans the rest
of
> the gory details of retail realities -- like competing for a dealers "open
to
> buy" with various incentives, etc.
That's capitalism... one has to live with it.
> << ???
> I don't see the contradiction... I made a comparison based on digital
> instruments and came to the conclusion, that the lowest retail prices I
> could find for Roland products in the US don't differ as much from the
> cheapest prices I was able to find in Europe as their Yamaha pendants. >>
>
> Roland is a limited distributorship product line for most of their
products
> here in the US -- just exactly the same as Yamaha. If your theory held
any
> water at all, then Roland would also have the same discrepancies between
the US
> and Europe. They don't because Roland in Europe apparently has the same
> wholesale costs. Therefore, you have a huge gap in the logical basis of
your
> theory.
So, if Roland can do it, why can't Yamaha. Maybe Roland uses a less
restrictiv policy or recommends fairer prices (no intention to flame, I'm
just defending my theory).
> << Of course, no one likes bad publicity.
> Why are wholesale costs suposed to be higher in the US than in Europe? >>
>
> They're not "supposed to be higher" but apparently they are according to
you
> and others I've heard from. I already answered this in a previous post
and you
> tried to refute it, but here it is again in a more simple and direct form.
> Europeans are broke. Americans are rich. You wanna' sell to Europeans
and
> kick the competitions' butts over there? Sell it cheaper where poor
people can
> buy it. But then, if you overcompensate, you have to make up the loss
> somewhere. So sell it at higher prices to rich Americans to make up the
> difference. They have money to burn and an "irrational exuberance"
towards the
> stock market, Yamaha, Steinway and Mercedes (among other things). They'll
> gladly pay up.
Now that's an all American statement. It makes me doubt of your clear
perception of reality. I won't start a flame war on what I think about
America (only so much: at least I try to defend a more differentiated point
of view). BTW did you know that the percentage of poor people (and I mean
really poor) is much higher in the US than in Europe? And that Europe has
almost one and a half times as many inhabitants as the USA (go on, try to
figure out their market potential)? No global player company could afford to
sell their products in Europe at dumping prices over a longer period of time
(ok, there's Microsoft's X-Box but hey, they sell it under production cost
in the USA too).
> << So where's the reason for that huge difference in
> prices (up to 80%)? >>
>
> Economics has been a subject set adrift for way too many years in the
public
> school education system here because of the agenda of liberals in
undermining
> the free enterprise system. The product is easy to see -- tree huggers
> condemning evil corporate America. This is not a "conspiracy theory"
whacked
> out perspective. It is fact.
I am not condemning <<evil corporate America>> at all. On the contrary it
seems to me that policies of protected markets do much more damage to the
supposed capitalistic system of free trade than any <<tree hugger>> ever
could (were you just pissed when you wrote this post or are you really that
narrow-minded?).
> I would never have had to explain any of this to the average non-business
pedestrian 25 years ago. > It's really sad that I do now.
FYI though at school I didn't learn to much about economics, my economics
class at university should do the trick, don't you think?
> Once again, Fabian, I'm not picking on you. This is a symptom that
extends to
> the vast majority of the population in the US, and why we're on an
economic
> collision course with a socialistic government that will help save us from
> ourselves by giving us something to eat and a place to live and maybe a
small
> allowance. Forget about being a rugged individualist anymore.
First of all, I'm not part of <<the vast majority of the population in the
US>>, in fact I'm not a part of the US-population at all. And second: I'm
not quite sure whether I understand your criticism/fears/whatever but if
what you are trying to tell me comes even remotely close to what I think
you're trying to tell me, I'd love to know which kind of reed you smoke
(sorry, that was a low hit, but I couldn't help it). If the actual US
Government is socialistic I'm the pope.
> I'm depressed.
Obviously.
MfG
Dave Andrews
<< Hate to ruin a good pissing match, Dave and Fabian, but there is a very
simple explanation to this. It's called "economics". Right now the US
dollar is very strong against most every other currency, including the
Japanese Yen. Consequently, good purchased from Japan in the US will cost
more than the same goods sold to other countries like the UK where the
exchange rate is more even. >>
This is not a pissing match, Jory -- or at least it wasn't until Fabian's
latest post when he chose to incomprehensibly defend his assertion through
ridicule and pejoratives without any logical basis in fact.
Currency exchange rates do not account for a pricing differential of between
50% and 80% as claimed by Fabian and others in this thread. It would only
account for a very small portion of it, Jory.
Since the disputed pricing differential FAR exceeds retail gross margin points
achievable on either acoustic or digital pianos, the underlying premise as
advanced in this thread by Fabian is sheer fantasy.
By the way, comparing local stocking and displaying retailers to either
national or international mail order outfits is not an apples to apples
comparison, so your anecdotal Pianodepot illustration is no indication of
support for Fabian's baseless charge. The existence of mailorder across state
and international borders is a refutation of limited distributorship in the
first place. Secondly, most mail order outfits operate on similar profit
margins. So if Pianodepot can undercut a US based mail order outfit for
anything more than a percentage point or two beyond currency exchange rate
allowances, then somebody is getting a better wholesale price.
Dave Andrews
<< Ok, then I defamed them without intending to do so. BTW I use to think you
could say anything you _believed/thought_ in the US, no matter if it's true
or wrong... I guess you call that freedom of speech... >>
==============================================
Freedom of speech is afforded to "political speech". Slanderous speech and
libel are actionable. If you plan on any more damaging verbal assaults,
Fabian, make sure you retain a good attorney
==============================================
==============================================
No. It's a matter of choosing the right horses in each market to pull for you
in your limited distributorship marketing plans. It's also a matter of
possessing integrity above and beyond the pursuit of quick cash which by
definition, is not a long term relationship built on trust.
==============================================
==============================================
I called you neither and wrote to you with respect. I gave you a simple
illustration to highlight the concept because when I wrote in more general
terms, you did not grasp the concept. You still haven't.
==============================================
> Roland is a limited distributorship product line for most of their
products
> here in the US -- just exactly the same as Yamaha. If your theory held
any
> water at all, then Roland would also have the same discrepancies between
the US
> and Europe. They don't because Roland in Europe apparently has the same
> wholesale costs. Therefore, you have a huge gap in the logical basis of
your
> theory.
<< So, if Roland can do it, why can't Yamaha. Maybe Roland uses a less
restrictiv policy or recommends fairer prices (no intention to flame, I'm
just defending my theory). >>
=============================================
You're not defending your theory, you're ignoring what I'm writing to you.
Here are the underlying assumptions made:
1) Roland has a limited distribution policy in the US.
2) Yamaha has a limited distribution policy in the US.
3) Roland prices in the US are similar to Roland prices in Europe.
4) Yamaha prices in Europe are at least 50% lower than in the US.
Your conclusion: Limited distributorship is the problem.
My answer: If you can find one or more illustrations to refute a theory, the
theory is worthless.
=============================================
<snip the irrational and argumentative defense of an illogical opinion.>
=============================================
Here's a few more of your quotes I thought were indicative of the problem we
seem to have here, Fabian. I left out the pejoratives.
<< No global player company could afford to
sell their products in Europe at dumping prices over a longer period of time >>
False.
<< On the contrary it seems to me that policies of protected markets do much
more damage to the
supposed capitalistic system of free trade than any <<tree hugger>> ever could
>>
False.
<< FYI though at school I didn't learn to much about economics >>
True.
<< If the actual US
Government is socialistic I'm the pope. >>
False.
=============================================
Come back when you get an education, Fabian. Debates can be productive
exchanges. Arguing with a person intent on winning where logic is the primary
casualty is an exercise in futility.
Fredisg
University, but unless I am way off the mark, when the dollar is strong against
another currency, it makes American goods expensive for the other country to
buy, but a strong dollar makes foreign goods LESS expensive.
Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor
pianoguy
> Arguing with a person intent on winning where logic
> is the primary casualty is an exercise in futility.
The following link is not meant to insult anyone...I only
posted it for the benefit of Dave...and anyone else who
possesses a warped sense of humor.
http://users.pandora.be/p0p0/argue.jpg
M. Slater
>The following link is not meant to insult anyone...I only
>posted it for the benefit of Dave...and anyone else who
>possesses a warped sense of humor.
>
>
>http://users.pandora.be/p0p0/argue.jpg
>
>
>pianoguy
Do you really think that is funny?
Mark
Jeff
It's *not* funny at all, and even given the disclaimer, it's still a
little hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
>>The following link is not meant to insult anyone...I only
>>posted it for the benefit of Dave...and anyone else who
>>possesses a warped sense of humor.
Sorry, but Dave's sense of *reality* is what's warped. His sense of
*humor* is, evidently, non-existent.
Dave Andrews
<< Sorry, but Dave's sense of *reality* is what's warped. >>
I see. Another fan.
Perhaps you'd like to be brave enough to tell us all where your version of
reality differs with mine, Mr. Jeff Noaddress Nodomain and Noguts, and then
we'll see how well it holds up under public scrutiny. My experience has been
that guys like you who launch nondescript generalities from afar condemning
another person are pretty much weasals from the inside out. But I'd be willing
to give you the benefit of the doubt if you can manage a reasonable defense of
a closely held position or two.
<< His sense of *humor* is, evidently, non-existent. >>
Oh really? Humor is a hit and miss proposition. For example, I fully
understood PianoGuy's intent and his link was designed to give me a jab --
which I appreciated and accepted as a token of his "deep love" for me ;-) --
as opposed to demeaning special ed folks. One of the interesting things about
building relationships with people is that it prevents you from having "brain
in neutral" knee jerk reactions to superflous diversions. Now that we know you
are a politically correct protector of all society, Jeff, let me take this
moment to paraphrase what the Reverend Spooner might say at this point: "You
are a bit of a Shining Whit, aren't you".
Fabian Stolz
point of view.
> Fabian, make sure you retain a good attorney
I'll take this one for a joke.
> << I'm neither a kid nor am I stupid, no need to talk to me as if I was a
> complete fool. >>
> ==============================================
> I called you neither and wrote to you with respect. I gave you a simple
> illustration to highlight the concept because when I wrote in more general
> terms, you did not grasp the concept. You still haven't.
> ==============================================
See, these are statements which made (and still make) me think you
take me for a fool, ok maybe you really do so by now, but anyway, no
need to show it this obviously.
> << So, if Roland can do it, why can't Yamaha. Maybe Roland uses a less
> restrictiv policy or recommends fairer prices (no intention to flame, I'm
> just defending my theory). >>
> =============================================
> You're not defending your theory, you're ignoring what I'm writing to you.
>
> Here are the underlying assumptions made:
>
> 1) Roland has a limited distribution policy in the US.
>
> 2) Yamaha has a limited distribution policy in the US.
>
> 3) Roland prices in the US are similar to Roland prices in Europe.
>
> 4) Yamaha prices in Europe are at least 50% lower than in the US.
>
> Your conclusion: Limited distributorship is the problem.
>
> My answer: If you can find one or more illustrations to refute a theory, the
> theory is worthless.
You didn't get my point here. In a begining I said it was _Yamaha's_
distribution policy which was the problem. I never denied there were
other factors influencing the final retail prices (such as that the
Americans accept higher prices). Another point is that I didn't accuse
the dealers (alone), it might be that Yamaha takes advantage of their
distribution policies raising the prices they take from their
dealers... that was my point from a begining, maybe I didn't express
myself clearly before. Now I have no proves for this and may be
mistaken, but it still seems valid to me, as long as nobody gives me a
better reason to believe in.
Now don't start telling me about wholesale costs again, they have to
be based on something too, don't they?
> =============================================
> <snip the irrational and argumentative defense of an illogical opinion.>
> =============================================
IIRC the part you snipped out here dealt more with your socialistic
conspiracy theories than with my theory, didn't it? Evenso I still
think my arguments weren't irrational and no theory is illogical as
long as you can find rational arguments to base it upon.
> Here's a few more of your quotes I thought were indicative of the problem we
> seem to have here, Fabian. I left out the pejoratives.
Though I can't say I'm especially proud of what I wrote the other
night, I back up every word of it. Some of your statements seemed
narrow-minded to me then and still do. But let's not argue any further
and come to an end somewhere.
> << No global player company could afford to
> sell their products in Europe at dumping prices over a longer period of time >>
>
> False.
Please, don't make me laugh. Do you know a single example? I pretty
much doubt it.
> << On the contrary it seems to me that policies of protected markets do much
> more damage to the
> supposed capitalistic system of free trade than any <<tree hugger>> ever could
> >>
>
> False.
Why?
> << FYI though at school I didn't learn to much about economics >>
>
> True.
You skipped the last part of my sentence and therefore you're quoting
it out of context.
> << If the actual US
> Government is socialistic I'm the pope. >>
>
> False.
What you can observe in my statement above is called a 'metaphor'. You
can't have taken it seriously.
> Come back when you get an education, Fabian.
What do you know about my level of education? Nothing, so either don't
tell me not to talk about things I'm not supposed to know about or
keep to it yourself.
> Debates can be productive exchanges. Arguing with a person intent on
> winning where logic is the primary casualty is an exercise in futility.
Very true. I once heard someone say arguing on the internet was like
participating in the Paralympics, even if you won you were still
retarded.
So winning is not a point here, if I was utterly wrong I'd appreciate
your help to understand things better, but up to now I haven't heard a
single _convincing_ argument from your side.
See my point? On one hand there are people whom I regard with respect
for their knowledge and their will to help others (the people over at
the cvpug) telling me one thing which I have no reason not to believe,
on the other hand there's you telling me something completely
different - which until now nobody has backed up - without giving me
any reason to change my mind other than "I know about things you don't
know about and therefore I'm right when I tell you it's all a question
of wholesale costs".
If you had some figures supporting your point or at least a decent
explanation of why wholesale costs for Yamaha dealers are so much
higher in the US than in Europe when other brands don't have this
problem you would probably have convinced me yesterday.
You know, it doesn't augment your credibility if you say things like
"big companies compensate their losses in Europe with higher prices
and margins in the USA during long periods of time" (it might be true
for shorter intervals though) and mention Mercedes Benz as an example
to back that statement up, because Daimler Chrysler is utterly
dependend on their European markets, since Chrysler - which is much
more present in the USA then Daimler - is the part of the company with
negative income.
So either you go and find some _convincing_ way to make your point
valid or we might aswell stop wasting other peoples time for reading
our posts.
MfG
PS: Sorry for the long post.
Dave Zappa
"M. Slater" <harpsic...@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20020530022229...@mb-ci.aol.com...
While not being politically correct, it's damn funny.
Deepak Subburam
news:20020530022229...@mb-ci.aol.com...
>
I don't think it is funny. I think it is trollish.
Deepak
pianoguy
> Do you really think that is funny?
Hmmmm, must have hit a nerve.
pianoguy
How ya doin?
It's interesting that you get insulted because of my antics.
What's this world coming to?
--
pianoguy
return email disabled
"Dave Andrews" <dwas...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message news:20020530031231...@mb-mv.aol.com...
Jeff
Whoa, slow down.
First of all, I thought the "Dave" in question was the slayer of all
things pompous, not you, so I apologize.....as far as I know, your
version of reality is fine. We all know what the other Dave's version
of reality is like.....
Second, why do the Daves on this forum have such an issue with my lack
of an e-mail address? As I asked the slayer the first time he brought
it up, why would I want to see these types of diatribes in my e-mail
box?--the newsgroup is clearly the proper place for these things.
Third, I agree that someone should be able to send something to a
friend that might otherwise be seen to cross arbitrary boundaries of
good taste, PC, etc. However, those of us that know retarded people
would rather have had pianoguy send that via e-mail.
Jeff
e-mail unavailable--please respond on the newsgroup--that's why it
exists.
On 30 May 2002 07:12:31 GMT, dwas...@aol.comnospam (Dave Andrews)
wrote:
Dave Andrews
<< Hi Dave,
How ya doin? >>
============================================
If I were any better, you wouldn't be able to stand me, PG.
Come to think of it ...
;-)
============================================
<< It's interesting that you get insulted because of my antics.
What's this world coming to? >>
============================================
I enjoyed it, Pianoguy. No problem here. Keep up the good work.
As for what the world is coming to, it beats me. If I try to be a peacemaker,
I'm toasted. If I defend another contributor in the face of an attack, I'm
toasted. If I offer a strong opinion, I'm toasted. If I offer a lame joke,
I'm toasted. If I try to correct misinformation, I'm toasted. If I make
several attempts at educating someone, I'm toasted.
The only constant in all of this is me getting toasted. That being the case,
I've given up "charm and grace" for Lent -- on account of the fact that I
"lent" it to Larry. You can really sense it in his posts, can't you?
;-)
Hope all is going well for you, Pianoguy -- and when rooting through Larry's
dumpster, make sure you prop the lid up on it securely. One more bonk on the
head, and you might start making sense to everybody else besides just me.
Dave Andrews
<< Dave -
Whoa, slow down.
First of all, I thought the "Dave" in question was the slayer of all
things pompous, not you, so I apologize.....as far as I know, your
version of reality is fine. >>
Now you've really gone off the deep end, Jeff. It was easier to deal with you
when I thought you were insulting me.
Okay, my apologies back at you, Jeff. I have a great memory, but it's about 3
seconds long. Therefore, I didn't remember any previous posts or some other
context for any exchanges. Likewise, if you hadn't been paying attention to
Pianoguy's and my long history of friendly tweaking back and forth, you might
have thought that the link was far more insidious than it was ever intended to
be.
<< We all know what the other Dave's version
of reality is like..... >>
Understood. Just for the record though, he is not Dave or David. He is davey
with a small "d".
<< Second, why do the Daves on this forum have such an issue with my lack
of an e-mail address? >>
Doesn't bother me. My post used the occasion to launch back at what I
misunderstood as being a broadside.
<< Third, I agree that someone should be able to send something to a
friend that might otherwise be seen to cross arbitrary boundaries of
good taste, PC, etc. However, those of us that know retarded people
would rather have had pianoguy send that via e-mail. >>
Maybe so, but look -- like I said, Pianoguy and I enjoy making spectacles of
ourselves here on RMMP. He's a very bright guy -- I taught him everything he
knows. So don't go too far off on a PC tangent. We both show the utmost
respect for all folks and especially those with limitations of one kind or
another. We only get testy with people that have a penchant for poking sticks
into beehives.
May we all live happily ever after.
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I have enough other people on my list that
I'm trying to straighten out. ;-)
Larry
>Jeff noaddress@nodomain wrote:
>
><< Dave -
>
>First of all, I thought the "Dave" in question was the slayer of all
>things pompous, not you,
Dave responded:
>Okay, my apologies back at you, Jeff.
Just for the record, my reading of Jeff's post left me with the understanding
that he was talking about the "great oui oui" as well. After I saw your
response and realized you had misunderstood him, I expected their to be a train
wreck, but Jeff handled it with much grace. As did you Dave, when you realized
your error.
Now shake hands.
>I have a great memory, but it's about 3
>seconds long.
Whew! For some reason it took the word "memory" a few seconds to load. I wasn't
sure what you were confessing to there, Dave......... ;-)
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
group on my website:
pianoguy
> As for what the world is coming to, it beats me. If I try to be a peacemaker,
> I'm toasted. If I defend another contributor in the face of an attack, I'm
> toasted. If I offer a strong opinion, I'm toasted. If I offer a lame joke,
> I'm toasted. If I try to correct misinformation, I'm toasted. If I make
> several attempts at educating someone, I'm toasted.
In that case...you're the ToastMaster!
Congratu-bleeping-lations!
Now...where's that prune marmalade?
pianoguy
> Third, I agree that someone should be able to send something to a
> friend that might otherwise be seen to cross arbitrary boundaries of
> good taste, PC, etc. However, those of us that know retarded people
> would rather have had pianoguy send that via e-mail.
OK, post your email address and I'll send it to you.
M. Slater
the other picture without being offensive to anyone:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/personal/intnetdg.gif
Mark
Jeff
Thanks for the conciliatory message. I apologize again for wrongly
assuming where the thread was directed.
>Understood. Just for the record though, he is not Dave or David. He is davey
>with a small "d".
....probably the smallest d on the Internet, I suspect <g>.
>May we all live happily ever after.
That would be nice, but I'm sure you'd agree that's probably not
realistic here on RMMP....
>Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I have enough other people on my list that
>I'm trying to straighten out. ;-)
I can relate <g>.
Jeff
Pierre-Normand Houle
"Fredisg" <fre...@aol.com> wrote:
This confused me also. I think that when your currency becomes stronger,
this leads the "prices" of some imported goods to go up. It also leads the *prices*
of these same goods to go down at the same time! Let me explain this paradox:
I know from experience that Kawai pianos are much "cheaper" in Canada than
in the U.S. They're also much more "expensive" in Canada than in the U.S. !!
What happens is that Kawai sells pianos to Canadian dealers for "cheaper"
(in *constant* currency: say gold) than to U.S dealers. If they weren't doing this,
poor Canadians couldn't afford to buy Pianos. This is because where the
average U.S.A. citizen makes 40,000$ a year (I am making this figure up), his
Canadian brother only makes 40,000 CAD.
For example, a Kawai RX-2 might sell for 20,000 CAD in Canada and
for 16,000 USD in the U.S.
19,000 CAD is about 12,700 USD. So the Kawai RX-2 is less *expensive*
in Canada but it's also more "expensive" in Canada. (The Canadian buyer
would be better off if its currency were in parity with the U.S currency. He would
spend a smaller chunk of his salary to get a piano.)
Jeff
>that he was talking about the "great oui oui" as well. After I saw your
>response and realized you had misunderstood him, I expected their to be a train
>wreck, but Jeff handled it with much grace. As did you Dave, when you realized
>your error.
Thanks Larry--I've never been accused of having any grace before <g>.
I was certainly was at fault to start with, though.
Jeff
Gary Rimar
responding because of any particular affinity or disdain for the
participants.
I'm assuming your heterosexual. I'm not. If I hit on you and you have a
strong reaction in the aversive, should I assume you're just a closet case
putting on a good show?
Do NOT think you know someone and intuit their motivations, at least and
expect to be at all accurate.
You hit a nerve with me (based on disabilities and other related issues) and
I'm obviously NOT retarded (at least mentally <grin>).
Gary (smart alecks please stay out of this one) Rimar
"pianoguy" <oo...@doobie.com> wrote in message
news:76sJ8.1043$tw1....@eagle.america.net...
Eve Rybody
wrote:
>"M. Slater" wrote:
>> Do you really think that is funny?
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>=3D=3D=3D
>Hmmmm, must have hit a nerve.
>
>
>--=20
>pianoguy
>return email disabled
>
There's an interesting article in Scientific American this month about
savant syndrome. There's mention of Leslie Lemke, who, although he
suffers from cerebral palsy and has never studied piano, composes
music, and can play thousands of pieces after having only heard them
once. There's another form that manifest itself at the onset of
fronto-temporal dementia. Current thinking is that some sort of injury
to the brain allows other areas to develop in a compensatory way and
results in "rain man". So, even though somebody may be retarded, they
still have something to offer, and they might even play piano better
than you! :)
Eve Rybody
All the World Over
pianoguy
Woof!
--
pianoguy
return email disabled
"M. Slater" <harpsic...@aol.comedy> wrote in message news:20020530223409...@mb-fk.aol.com...
M. Slater
>What about the dog coalition?
Yep, I'm imagining that dogs will be offended these days, too.
Mark
Curt Simon
>For example, a Kawai RX-2 might sell for 20,000 CAD in Canada and
>for 16,000 USD in the U.S. 19,000 CAD is about 12,700 USD.
>So the Kawai RX-2 is less *expensive* in Canada but it's also
>more "expensive" in Canada. (The Canadian buyer
>would be better off if its currency were in parity with the U.S currency.
He would
>spend a smaller chunk of his salary to get a piano.)
You are using the word price in 2 ways: relative scarcity and standard
of living.
Price usually means the amount of other goods and services
that must be sacrificed. If there were two goods: pianos and houses,
and they both sold for 10,000 units of domestic currency
in Canada and the U.S., the price of pianos would be the same:
1 unit housing = 1 piano.
If labor productivity is higher in the U.S., the typical U.S. resident
will be able to afford more units of housing and more pianos,
so the standard of living is higher. But 1 piano still = 1 house!
Curt Simon
LstPuritan
Dave Andrews
<< What about ITAG? >>
=========================================
You've had some pretty obtuse posts before, Justin, but the "International
Trepanation Advocacy Group" is a new record. Next thing you know, you'll be
coaching people on how to dig holes in rocks with sharp pointy sticks while
wearing protective face masks and funny shoes.
