Rhapsody in Blue fingering?
Tom Terwilliger
initial glissando at the beginning of Gershwin's 'Rhapsody in Blue'?
Thanks,
T T
Michael Haslam
This is a piano group not a clarinet one!
MJHaslam
Marie Fullerton
Good observation. However, I was wondering the same thing as Tom because
I have also been working on Rhapsody in Blue for PIANO.
MF
Adam Bravo
12341231234123... etc
"Tom Terwilliger" <to...@NOSPAMintcom.net> wrote in message
news:3c6d7c94$0$15796$724e...@reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
Ptnegun
>Can anyone provide me with (or point me to) a suggested fingering for the
>initial glissando at the beginning of Gershwin's 'Rhapsody in Blue'?
>
G
news:20020215215316...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> >
> >Can anyone provide me with (or point me to) a suggested fingering for the
> >initial glissando at the beginning of Gershwin's 'Rhapsody in Blue'?
> >
> I think the clarinets play that.
He is most likely trying to play from the urtext version of the sheet music,
which I have. If you can find it, listen to the piano roll of Gershwin
playing the entire song on the piano. I'm still looking to see if there is
a piano roll of Oscar Levant playing it, as well...
EROMLIGNOD
This is an interesting question. While this part is played glissando by a
clarinet in the original orchestrated version, the piano solo version shows it
as a series of seventeen 1/128th notes at a moderato tempo rather than the
usual symbol (a squiggly line). What's interesting is that the notes printed
are diatonic. Since a true glissando is a continuous, fluid raise in pitch
that can only be approximated on a piano you would think that a chromatic
passage would be used. The individual notes would have to be played almost
twice as fast, though, to get all of them into the same time frame (one beat).
Actually, I guess it's not too puzzling since when you play a piano glissando
by brushing your finger up the white keys, you're effecively playing a C
diatonic.
For the Bb diatonic version I use: 12341231234123...
For a chromatic version I would try: 12123412123121234...
Hope this helps!
Don
Tom Terwilliger
Gershwin. It was the arranger Ferde Grofe, working for concert promoter Paul
Whiteman, who developed the orchestration for a modern jazz concert on
Febraury 12, 1924.
Thanks to those who answered my question.
Tom T
"Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:3C6D9AA1...@mac.com...
Tom Shaw
Gershwin. That composition would not have seen the light of day had not
Whiteman and Grofe worked it up. Nuff said.
TS
"Tom Terwilliger" <to...@NOSPAMintcom.net> wrote in message
news:3c71696b$0$15675$4c41...@reader1.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
Michael Haslam
>
> The concerto was composition was originally written for the piano by
> Gershwin. It was the arranger Ferde Grofe, working for concert promoter Paul
> Whiteman, who developed the orchestration for a modern jazz concert on
> Febraury 12, 1924.
>
> Thanks to those who answered my question.
>
> Tom T
opening the piece with a clarinet glissando?
Please tell us where and when Gershwin performed the piece as a piano
solo before the Whiteman premiere.
Perhaps you can describe the difference between orchestration and
arrangement while you're about it.
MJHaslam
Adam Bravo
Grofe rearranged it for symphonic orchestra, which is the one we all know.
"Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:A61929B218876D5C.357274CB...@lp.airnews.net...
Michael Haslam
>
> I've actually heard that the original orchestration was terrible. Later,
> Grofe rearranged it for symphonic orchestra, which is the one we all know.
There's at least one modern recording of the original orchestration
conducted by Simon Rattle IIRC. I don't think it is terrible, just
different from the standard symphonic version.
MJHaslam
Mike Williams
a jazz band + piano, not a full symphony orchestra. The full orchestral
version came 3 years later.
According to http://www.loudounsymphony.org/notes/gershwin-blue.html :
"...Whiteman's band did not have the recourses of a full orchestra. The
string section consisted of eight violins, and a tuba player doubled on
contra-bass. All the woodwind parts were covered by three versatile
instrumentalists, while the brass section-at three trumpets, two horns a
trombone, and a part-time tuba-was rather smaller than we are accustomed to
hearing. In addition, Grofé called originally for banjo and celeste!
One final note: the famous clarinet smear that opens the work was not
invented by Gershwin, who had written a seventeen note scale figure in his
score. The smear was contributed by Whiteman's clarinetist, Ross Gorman, as
a joke on Gershwin during a particularly long and grueling rehearsal
session. Gershwin liked the effect so much he decided to keep it, and now
all published scores call for it, much to the dismay of clarinetists the
world over. "
"Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:3C72088E...@mac.com...
Michael Haslam
>
> The original "orchestration" (= arrangement for orchestra) by Grofe was for
> a jazz band + piano, not a full symphony orchestra. The full orchestral
> version came 3 years later.
>
> According to http://www.loudounsymphony.org/notes/gershwin-blue.html :
>
> "...Whiteman's band did not have the recourses of a full orchestra. The
> string section consisted of eight violins, and a tuba player doubled on
> contra-bass. All the woodwind parts were covered by three versatile
> instrumentalists, while the brass section-at three trumpets, two horns a
> trombone, and a part-time tuba-was rather smaller than we are accustomed to
> hearing. In addition, Grofé called originally for banjo and celeste!
> One final note: the famous clarinet smear that opens the work was not
> invented by Gershwin, who had written a seventeen note scale figure in his
> score. The smear was contributed by Whiteman's clarinetist, Ross Gorman, as
> a joke on Gershwin during a particularly long and grueling rehearsal
> session. Gershwin liked the effect so much he decided to keep it, and now
> all published scores call for it, much to the dismay of clarinetists the
> world over. "
Well, there you go! "...Gershwin, who had written a seventeen note scale
figure in his score" implies that indeed Gershwin wrote the scale for
the clarinet that started this thread.
MJHaslam
Tom Shaw
with that gliss. Apparently neither was Grofe.
TSnews:3C722DAC...@mac.com...
Tom Terwilliger
> Can you provide a citation for Grofe being the creative force behind
> opening the piece with a clarinet glissando?
nope
> Please tell us where and when Gershwin performed the piece as a piano
> solo before the Whiteman premiere.
In his apartment? at midnight?
> Perhaps you can describe the difference between orchestration and
> arrangement while you're about it.
You don't know??
Michael Haslam
>
> "Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:3C719A25...@mac.com...
>
> > Can you provide a citation for Grofe being the creative force behind
> > opening the piece with a clarinet glissando?
>
> nope
So you don't care how true your statements/implications are?
>
> > Please tell us where and when Gershwin performed the piece as a piano
> > solo before the Whiteman premiere.
>
> In his apartment? at midnight?
In front of an audience? The piece was a commission after all AFAIK.
>
> > Perhaps you can describe the difference between orchestration and
> > arrangement while you're about it.
>
> You don't know??
I wondered if *you* did.
MJHaslam
Tom Terwilliger
anyone had fingering for the opening riff. Pardon me for sticking my
uneducated nose into this ivory tower.
TT
"Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:3C72E545...@mac.com...
Michael Haslam
>
> I don't care if it were written for the =kazoo=. I just wanted to know if
> anyone had fingering for the opening riff. Pardon me for sticking my
> uneducated nose into this ivory tower.
You're forgiven +
MJHaslam
G
news:A61929B218876D5C.357274CB...@lp.airnews.net...
> Gershwin. That composition would not have seen the light of day had not
> Whiteman and Grofe worked it up. Nuff said.
> TS
Come on, Tom. Gershwin wrote Rhapsody for Whiteman, at Whiteman's request,
and he did it VERY QUICKLY. To have turned out such a great work as fast as
he did, whether he orchestrated it or not, is testament to his tremendous
creative ability. And to say it wouldn't have seen the light of day is
equally outrageous. I only wish Levant were alive to make you eat it on
this one!
G
> Please tell us where and when Gershwin performed the piece as a piano
> solo before the Whiteman premiere.
Well, I can't answer that. But I do have a piano roll of Gershwin playing
the whole thing himself, and it matches the urtext note-for-note. I have it
in MP3 format. Let me know how to get it to you, as it is a rather large
file (over 12 minutes long).
Michael Haslam
I know of the piano roll. All I am saying is that the piece was
conceived and composed by Gershwin for piano plus other instruments and
noone has shown in this thread that the opening scale was not conceived
or composed for anything except the clarinet. The original question
about fingering irked me by showing an assumption that RIB was a piano
piece first-and-foremost.
Incidentally I worked with the late Larry Adler who had played RIB with
Gershwin at a party in an impromptu version for piano and harmonica [or
mouth organ as Larry called it]. Those connections are funky!
MJHaslam
G
> I know of the piano roll. All I am saying is that the piece was
> conceived and composed by Gershwin for piano plus other instruments and
> noone has shown in this thread that the opening scale was not conceived
> or composed for anything except the clarinet. The original question
> about fingering irked me by showing an assumption that RIB was a piano
> piece first-and-foremost.
We may never know. Why are we to assume that GG couldn't come up with a
simple glissando? He wrote the piece pretty much on the fly, and while he
was sniffing burned rubber in the air, he could have come up with anything!
Tom Shaw
TS
"G" <nojun...@nul.dev> wrote in message
news:ASfe8.262523$jO5.34...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
G
> Levant who?
Oscar Levant! The top-grossing American concert pianist of the first-half
century (20th). Movie star, wit, and close confidant of George Gershwin.
Levant's recordings of Rhapsody In Blue, with the Whiteman orchestra, was
the most popular selling version between 1940 and 1950. His
"interpretations" of Gershwin's works are the most widely hailed.
Read Oscar's books, available on Amazon, and really learn about concert
pianists of the late 19th century all the way through Levant's life, which
ended in 1972.
Tom Shaw
Michael Haslam
Didn't the burned rubber come much later and is it not a now-known
symptom of the thing that he died from?
MJHaslam
G
> Didn't the burned rubber come much later and is it not a now-known
> symptom of the thing that he died from?
Not too much later, but yes, after the composition was created. He had a
brain tumor, and the phantom smell of burnt rubber is a common symptom.
Tom Shaw
TSnews:3C7A9FE0...@mac.com...
Radu Focshaner
>
> Oh that Levant!
Since you are most active on Levantine newsgroups, I understand your
confusion.
--
========================================
I really have no life...
I go around reading posts and,without having any original thought,
or adding anything to the subject,simply make short simpleminded
remarQs.
Tom Shaw
dw...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> "Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I know of the piano roll. All I am saying is that the piece was
> > conceived and composed by Gershwin for piano plus other instruments
> > and noone has shown in this thread that the opening scale was not
> > conceived or composed for anything except the clarinet. The original
> > question about fingering irked me by showing an assumption that RIB
> > was a piano piece first-and-foremost.
>
> We may never know. Why are we to assume that GG couldn't come up with
> a simple glissando? He wrote the piece pretty much on the fly, and
> while he was sniffing burned rubber in the air, he could have come up
> with anything!
There was a longish discussion about this glissando on BBC Radio 3
(classical) the other day. Gershwin wrote RIB as a piano solo and Ferdy
Grofe orchestrated it, with the piano glissando written out for the
clarinet. Paul Whiteman's clarinettist (it was said) immediately turned
it into a true slide and that's how it stayed, for ever.
If you get to hear the original recording with GG on piano, it's
uncannily true to the piano roll (or the other way around), dynamics and
all, with just a few added bars. George could swing, but his attack was
pretty wooden.
===
| \
| \ dwi...@cix.compulink.co.uk
| [] D Dan Wilson (Friends of the Pianola Institute, London)
| / antispam: remove 2 if emailing
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===
dw...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> "Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Didn't the burned rubber come much later and is it not a now-known
> > symptom of the thing that he died from?
>
> Not too much later, but yes, after the composition was created. He
> had a brain tumor, and the phantom smell of burnt rubber is a common
> symptom.
Unfortunately it doesn't indicate the condition, because other brain
obstructions can do the same, such as an aneurysm or a minor thrombosis.
G
news:a5ha96$n5i$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
> G <nojun...@nul.dev> said:
> If you get to hear the original recording with GG on piano, it's
> uncannily true to the piano roll (or the other way around), dynamics and
> all, with just a few added bars. George could swing, but his attack was
> pretty wooden.
Yeah, I got the original recording on piano roll. You're right, a bit
wooden on the attack. Levant made Rhapsody his piece, even though he got
sick of it in later years...
Sonarrat Citalis
> >
> > Oh that Levant!
>
> Since you are most active on Levantine newsgroups, I understand your
> confusion.
*falling out of my chair laughing*
That must qualify for some sort of award.
--
-Sonarrat Citalis.
Email: Remove the fish, replace the net.
Signature at http://sonarrat.stormloader.com/sonarratsig.html
Error: Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue.
Tom Shaw
G
news:dK0f8.5$DY4...@inet-nntp1.oracle.com...
>
> "Radu Focshaner" <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
> news:3C7B68...@writeme.com...
> > Tom Shaw wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh that Levant!
> >
> > Since you are most active on Levantine newsgroups, I understand your
> > confusion.
>
> *falling out of my chair laughing*
I hate to admit when something goes over my head, but what is so funny?
G
> I got sick of it the first time I heard it.
Too bad. I think it is great.
Radu Focshaner
Levant:The countries bordering on the eastern Mediterranean Sea from
Turkey to Egypt
We also use "Levantine" as a pejorative when we refer to someone who
acts like in one of the Levantine countries (is very loud, agitated,
speaks with the hands, acts as in an oriental market, a "colourful"
person ). It also came to my attention that mr. Shaw Thomas is a very
active and energetic contributor to egypt, israel and mideast newsgroups
(of course RMMP is something different : it is dedicated to European
Classical Music only). His initial question was about Oscar Levant .
Tom Shaw
Tom Shaw
TSnews:BF3A6B4575F88ED2.DCCBDBCA...@lp.airnews.net...