Different tech opinion on restringing quote.
Joanna Price
piano tuners have been out to take a look and they both want about $2200,
but they recommend different things re the bridges.
In this price they can not afford to adjust the plate which I think is fixed
in my piano anyway. One tuner says down-bearing, while it might be off due
to age (60+ years) does not need changing as the tone is fine. The other
wants to raise the bridges a little with a strip of something (my bridges do
not have caps to exchange) to compensate for a flattening sound-board. This
tuner says while the strings are off why not?
I'm not sure who to go with. Any input from any technical minded pianists
out there??
Thanks and luv yer
Joanne
Ed Foote
>to age (60+ years) does not need changing as the tone is fine. >The other
wants to raise the bridges a little with a strip of >something (my bridges do
not have caps to exchange) to compensate for a flattening sound-board. This
>tuner says while the strings are off why not?
Greetings,
The flattening of a soundboard will not be fixed by raising the bridges.
If there is one section that has collapsed, then perhaps lowering the plate in
that section,(often a tricky procedure and sometimes risky), may gain enough
bearing to improve the tone, but the flatness in the soundboard means that as
you lower the plate, the soundboard will continue to drop, since a flat board
has usually lost the ability to resist downbearing.
If the tone is fine, why are you changing strings? Pinblock problems?
Also, during the restringing, the bridge and agraffes, as well as the V-bar,
need to be carefully attended to. Ask the techs what they are considering for
that, and also, get torque readings on our existing pin-block.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
Well-tempered CD's at Gasparo.com.
GSCD #332, "Beethoven In the Temperaments"
GSCD #344 . "Six Degrees of Tonality"
Caution, these CD's contain pure intervals and extensive liner notes!
Rick Clark
>I'm not sure who to go with. Any input from any technical minded pianists
>out there??
How about a technical minded technician? There are not many (if any)
pianists with knowledge in this area.
Assuming you have *some* downbearing, the first technician is correct.
All pianos lose some downbearing with age. There is no evidence this
in and of itself, hurts the tone.
And if the soundboard had gone tonally bad, shimming the bridges is
not going to restore it, because the problem is really at the cellular
level.
Very fine sounding old pianos often have somewhat flattened
soundboards. It does not seem to hurt anything.
I did talk to one European trained rebuilder who was actually very
good, but he did believe in restoring crown or downbearing to "factory
specs". As I talked to him on the subject, it seemed that his training
was in building new pianos, and it was just his mindset that when he
rebuilt a piano he wanted to see those factory numbers restored. But
there was really no justification beyond that. So on the one hand, I
saw no reason for the practice, but on the other hand he was a very
fine rebuilder whom I otherwise wouldn't hesitate to recommend.
Then again, I've also met some dilettante techs not really tuned into
the information resources found at the professional level, who read
about issues like downbearing and get carried away thinking there is
some magic specification to shoot for. There may be value to
standardizing the measurments when installing a brand new board, but
it just doesn't translate to restringing old pianos.
Also, I very much agree with Ed's warning to make sure your candidates
are addressing the issues of bearing bars and agraffes. These are
oft-neglected by unprofessional rebuilders, and are issues that can
haunt you later in the form of 'funny sounds" (buzzing, etc).
Bottom line is I hope you will be able to select your rebuilder by
quality. The single issue of whether or not to shim the bridge is not
enough to judge by. On that issue alone, the piano will probably be OK
either way.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Joanna Price
why am I doing this? I told both the tuners upfront that I wanted to
restring and I did not ask is it necessary? Your questions have made me
think about the subjectivness of tone quality.
How do I know if my piano's tone quality is as it should be, could be, and
if there is room for improvement? How do I know if it is achieved by
restringing or these bridge adjustments? I'm told there is "some" as you say
down-bearing, mainly at the lower end but virtually none at the middle and
top, but there is some. Maybe I was thinking to much along cosmetic lines
cos the felts have all rotted away.
I know I should have asked these techs, and particularly the one who does
the tuning, for an evaluation and compared what they said but that is too
late now, there are no others around here.
But to summarize, I hear you saying, even if I do have it restrung there is
no point in re-capping the bridges as long as the strings bear down on them,
as they do, rather than float like a clothes line above them!
Thanks again, Joanna
"Rick Clark" <pianodoctor@mindspr*ng.com> wrote in message
news:3d8e854f...@news.mindspring.com...
Rick Clark
>Big thanks to Rick and Ed. You both ask good question and have me thinking
>why am I doing this? I told both the tuners upfront that I wanted to
>restring and I did not ask is it necessary? Your questions have made me
>think about the subjectivness of tone quality.
That's a very good point. If the piano sounds fine as is, that's a lot
of money to spend to get some additional brightness and a lot of
tuning instability for the next year or so.
>
>How do I know if my piano's tone quality is as it should be, could be, and
>if there is room for improvement?
My own judgements are based on how new strings sound v bad strings. If
you try different pianos in a piano store, and don't find your own
piano lacking in comparison, then why restring indeed? No matter what,
you *will* get more high harmonics with new strings (which most people
call "brightness") but whether this is musically valuable to you is
subject to your own taste. Some people are actually irritated by the
bright sound of new strings. However, they do mellow out somewhat over
the first couple years.
>How do I know if it is achieved by
>restringing or these bridge adjustments?
>I'm told there is "some" as you say
>down-bearing, mainly at the lower end but virtually none at the middle and
>top, but there is some.
Well- let's hold on here. When I said a piano should have *some*
downbearing- that means it should have some in every section.
Typically it's minimal in the middle of the board (upper bass-tenor
section) but there should definitely be some, and more in the mid-high
treble.
However, it's also tricky to get good downbearing measurements. Some
techs use cheap rocker gauges rather than precise gauges that give you
a readout in .001s of an inch (or mm). With a rocker gauge, it's easy
to mistake a little downbearing for NO downbearing.
So this leaves open the question, as perhaps you have lost
downbearing- but perhaps it just wasn't measured that accurately.
If it is true there is no downbearing at all, then it is a big gamble
spending the money on restringing and bridge shimming. Ed has given
the reasons why, you can consider them valid. If you are lacking
downbearing, you should be considering a new soundboard. However this
is so expensive (and hard to find good work) that it puts you in the
position of comparing it to the cost of replacing the piano with a new
one.
But I'll tell you from my experience, that it's very rare for a 60
year old piano to be totally lacking in downbearing. I am more
suspicious it may not have been measured precisely.
Also, one should consider humidity factors. A piano will have less
downbearing in low humidity conditions than high. If measurements are
made at low humidity, it makes sense to correct the humidity first
(42% is right for pianos), then make the measurement.
>But to summarize, I hear you saying, even if I do have it restrung there is
>no point in re-capping the bridges as long as the strings bear down on them,
>as they do, rather than float like a clothes line above them!
Yes, (taking the above coments into consideration) but there can be
other reasons to recap the bridge- like the holes are split where the
pins go in.
The real problem you are facing, as I see it, is that there are a lot
of techs out there with varying levels of knowledge and experience.
There are no enforceable standards in this business. Some techs are
just starting out, with a DIY book, trying to hustle up business. It's
probably the worst problem in the business. A lot of them seem to be
attracted to restringing as a first option, for some reason. Perhaps
because it's easy to understand in concept. (Though not easy to
execute well in practice.)
I think it's important to find someone more "holistic". Someone who
can outline and make clear to you the various operations that can
improve your piano, and the benefits (or lack of same) to each. If the
strings are blatantly bad, it may be valid to jump on restringing as a
first choice. But not if there is NO downbearing in sections- which
indicates deeper issues.
Do not assume that everyone who says he can restring or rebuild a
piano is capable of doing a good job. In fact, most aren't. Take the
time to find someone you can have a lot of confidence in. There are
almost NO pianos in which restringing is the ONLY thing that will
improve it. If restringing seems to be the only issue the tech is
aware of, it would make me suspicious of their knowledge and
experience.
Regards,
Rick Clark