Nordiska vs. Kohler and Campbell
br...@murfman.net
"Are the Samick pianos any good?" question. I have tried to do
some research (not enough though), but haven't been able to find
all of the answers.
I am having a small problem deciding which piano to buy. I have
searched the deja news archives and found several of the posts helpful,
but they didn't completely answer my questions. I have also tried to
purchase or borrow the Larry Fine Piano Book, but have been unable
to find a copy in a local library or book store (at least the most
recent edition).
I am on a tight budget when it comes to choosing a baby grand piano
($5000-$7000). Uprights are currently not being considered.
I am also planning on financing the purchase, so a used piano from a
private sale would be difficult.
So far, I have seen a Kohler and Campbell SKG400S (4'7") for $5000,
a larger Kohler and Campbell (not sure of the exact size, but not as
large as the Nordiska) for $6500 (a little high), a Nordiska (5'5") for
$5500, or a Yamaha (4'11" I think) for $9000 (out of my price range).
From the Deja searches, I was able to see that not too many people
were fond of the Samick pianos. I am understanding from talking to
sales reps that the K&C pianos are slight better than the Samick brand
pianos, but are made by Samick.
Nordiska is made in China and is distributed by Geneva International
Corp, but I haven't been able to find out too much more about them.
I understand that there are much nicer pianos out there, but I just
cant afford them. What I need to know is, for the money, which piano
is the best deal.
So, here's my question. Which piano do you recommend, the K&C, the
Nordiska, or neither (do without until I can afford something better)?
Speaking with the salesmen hasn't seemed to help much. The K&C rep.
says that the Nordiska is an inferior instrument. The Nordiska
salesman says the K&C is not as good. My shopping has been somewhat
limited, but a friend recently went to every local piano store and
finally decided on the Nordiska.
The Nordiska seems like a good deal. Would I be getting a relatively
decent piano for the money? Is it really any better/worse than the
K&C? Am I crazy for considering either of these?
Thanks for all of your help.
Brian
br...@murfman.net
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dwain Lee
real question. But I just wanted to compliment you for the way you framed
your position. Other than not detailing why an upright is not being
considered (or why you couldn't buy Fine's book at Amazon, even though I'm
not sure it would help you any more for your question), I thought you did a
very reasonable job of laying out your circumstances and thought process to
minimize many standard generic replies that a post like this often
generates. You might follow up with a little about "why" you want/need a
piano now, anyway - have you played for some time, just starting out,
potentially serious musician, etc. ( this could be helpful in answering the
potential "wait till you have more money" question). Any answer to the
question is perfectly valid; there's no right or wrong answer, it just may
help people in framing their advice to you.
I'll be interested to see what answers you get, and I hope that this is the
only post to your question that doesn't give you relevant information. :-)
Dwain Lee
Rick Clark
though all of the cheaper piano brands are less than perfect and more
troublesome than better brands. However the ones as small as under 5'
seem to be made to even a lesser quality standard than the larger
ones. It is an issue separate from tone and I would not consider one
in that size range for that reason. And the older ones are a bit worse
than the newer ones, so I would be more leery of used than new.
I'm not familiar with the Nordiska, but Chinese pianos in general
have so far been more troublesome and likely to have non-defeatable
defects than something like a Korean-made Kohler & Campbell.
Basically, I think you are making a mistake, unless you are simply
buying for show, in which case the only thing that matters is looks.
You seem to be limited budget-wise to what will invariably be the
lowest quality grands. I think it is much wiser to consider
better-quality uprights when one is in your price range. Better to
have something modest but well-made than showy but cheaply done. In
your price range I would urge toward something like a Charles Walter
upright.
Rick Clark
Brian Murphy
news:9227vg$rol$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> Hi Brian, first off let me say I am not knowledgeable enough to answer
your
> real question. But I just wanted to compliment you for the way you framed
> your position. Other than not detailing why an upright is not being
> considered
The piano purchase would actually be for my wife. She is shopping with me
and is evaluating the sound and feel of each of the pianos. I am not a
musician, I
am an engineer by nature and have been quite unsuccessful at playing
any instruments (trumpet in high school, guitar) musically. My wife has
played the piano recreationally for some time but has not had access to one
in
about 10 years. She would like to get back into it and become a little more
serious (not professional though). We also have two kids and would like to
have a piano available for them (piano lessons, etc.).
Now, that being said, my wife just doesn't want an upright. If the less
expensive
grand pianos are truly "cheaper" pianos, then an upright will have to be
considered.
However, I am ok with the less expensive pianos if in fact they aren't all
that bad,
just not as good as the more expensive ones. I have read on the archives
that
the chinese pianos (and the Samick ones) are often refered to as the Yugos
of the
piano world. I don't necessarily need a Lexus or Cadillac, but a decent
Chevy.
If in fact, if the cheaper pianos are pieces of junk, then maybe the
uprights will be
considered.
> (or why you couldn't buy Fine's book at Amazon, even though I'm
> not sure it would help you any more for your question),
I was able to find the book on Amazon, but we are shopping for the piano now
and wanted the immediate gratification of buying the book from a local store
or
borrowing it from a library. I will probably buy the book from Amazon and
hold
off on my piano purchase until I receive/read it.
Thanks
Brian Murphy
br...@murfman.net
vla...@my-deja.com
In the last couple years the Chinese pianos have made a lot of
progress, and every major piano company are having pianos manufactured
there. I have heard some very good things about the Nordiska piano, but
I cannot personally verify it. Your statement that
> Nordiska is made in China and is distributed by Geneva International
Says a lot. Geneva is a major company, and you should take comfort in
the fact that they are very customer service oriented, and they have a
very reputable dealer network.
I would not be afraid to purchase any chinese piano that was backed by
one of the major companies.
Rick Clark
you buy a better brand piano. You are buying inherent quality of
materials, knowledge, skill, and know-how in building. Conversely,
those are the very things you sacrifice with the cheap ones. Buy
either, and live with the consequences. Pianos are very complicated
pieces of Victorian-era design and engineering. Such things are not
stamped out of a mold. Each facet of the piano can be done in a better
way or a worse way, and the way it all adds up is the "quality" of the
instrument. You don't pull unskilled laborers out of third-world
populations and get German results. You don't engineer based on
demographics at the low end of the market and select the same kinds of
materials as when quality is the primarly issue.
Rick Clark
Larry
>populations and get German results. You don't engineer based on
>demographics at the low end of the market and select the same kinds of
>materials as when quality is the primarly issue.
>
>Rick Clark
>
That was one of the best stated and most valuable posts I've ever seen on this
NG.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Http://www.pianosinc.net
Mark Eisenman
I've played piano's in peoples homes and studios for years.
A small grand is usually a bad move. String length is everything in
pianos.
Small grands have shorter strings. (Remember, a 60 inch grand is 8 inches
shorter than a 60 inch upright.)
How? The measurement in the grand includes the KEYS!!! In the upright
however, the height of the piano is truly the length of the harp. More
sound, more string length means better intonation. (Lot's of physics
involved. See Scientific American article on coupled piano strings from
about 25 years ago)
Aside from this, the small grands that I've played that are only slightly
higher in price to a good quality upright are not even close in terms of
quality.
Basically, a $5,000 yamaha or Kawai upright is much more fun to play, and
lasts longer, has a better tone that any 8,000 dollar grand I've ever
played.
The most depressing pianos I've ever played are cheap Samick grands or any
small poorly made baby grand. They can't hold a candle to a quality
upright. Dollar for dollar give me a Yamaha or Kawai full sized upright
any day.
Good Luck
Mark
you'll live with this decision a long time, and if the piano is
fundamentally junk, no amount of tweaking will help it. Simply put,
"You can't polish a turd."
vla...@my-deja.com
You will recieve advice from people here that have an agenda, they
either hate or love a particular piano. Some will be dealers themselves.
I would question the motivation of someone that would say that a piano
that is made in China and has no established distributorship or dealer
network like the Conn piano is the greatest thing coming out of China
and is a great piano, and then run down another.
The Chinese pianos if backed by a reputable distributor or company are
excellent affordable entry level pianos.
Larry
>I would question the motivation of someone that would say that a piano
>that is made in China and has no established distributorship or dealer
>network like the Conn piano is the greatest thing coming out of China
>and is a great piano, and then run down another.
>
>The Chinese pianos if backed by a reputable distributor or company are
>excellent affordable entry level pianos.
>
>
Just to correct your information a bit, Conn most definitely has a formally
established distributorship. And they have as much of an established dealership
as one could expect for the short time they have shipped.
And not all Chinese pianos are "excellent affordable entry level pianos". Some
are junk, and some of the junk has very good "distributorship". A Chinese built
piano cannot be bought simply by relying on the criteria you have laid out.
Established distributorship and established dealer networks does not make a bad
piano good. You must examine the piano itself.
For full disclosure, I acknowledge being a dealer in every post I make. But I
try to be fair.
Brian Murphy
Well, most of you will be happy to hear that we have probably
decided to go with a high quality upright piano. We will wait for
a grand piano until we can afford a quality piano. Although this wasn't
an option when we started this search for a piano, it appears to be
our best option at this point in time. We are also waiting until Amazon
ships our preordered 4th edition of Larry Fine's book.
We are now starting all over again, looking at uprights this time. We
will probably start by looking at the Yamaha U1 and Kawai K50.
Also on the list are the Petrof P125 IV, and a few others. I won't
waste people time on this group for recommendations yet until I have
looked around and searched the deja archives (unless you just can't
keep your opinions to yourself, in which case, I would be glad to
listen.)
Thanks again.
Brian Murphy
br...@murfman.net
jaso...@my-deja.com
a personal loan to finance the piano. If you would qualify you could
then open up to getting a good used grand from a private party. Also,
it is likely the interest rate will be lower.
Of course, all the caveats of buying used come with this approach. Get
a good tech to check out any instrument before you decide. Consider a
Yamaha, Kawai, Young Chang, or an older Baldwin, Chickering, etc. Your
price range is still low, but at least you'll be more likely to end up
with a decent instrument.
Steve Cohen
Jasons Music Center
Rick Clark
>The Chinese pianos if backed by a reputable distributor or company are
>excellent affordable entry level pianos.
Being "backed" by someone is NOT an indication of the physical quality
of an instrument. Almost every type of horrible-quality piano is
originally "backed" by someone reputable.
Rick Clark
Richard Galassini
>that is made in China and has no established distributorship or dealer
>network like the Conn piano is the greatest thing coming out of China
>and is a great piano, and then run down another.
>
>The Chinese pianos if backed by a reputable distributor or company are
>excellent affordable entry level pianos.
>
A few salient points:
1 - NO Chinese built piano is a "great" piano.
2 - Not all Chinese built pianos are equal. Just like not all American built
pianos are equal. Some are entry level pianos that can be servicable, some
aren't.
3 - A lot of bad merchandise has been backed by reputable companies.
(Particularly true in pianos.)
My 2 cents. Merry Christmas !!
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila,. Pa.
1 (800) 394-1117
URL:http://www.hometown.aol.com/voce88/cunn.html
bebop...@my-deja.com
Sorry I'm late - just my luck...just when I get to the party,
everyone's driving home.
Like you, when I was shopping for my first piano, I had an extremely
limited budget AND I wanted a baby grand. Quite frankly, while I
respected others opinion (voiced MOST vociferosly on this thread as
well as virtually EVERY other thread about people with limited
resources not being able to afford a quote-unquote "QUALITY" grand
piano) about how the used upright option was the "best" way to go, I
wanted a grand, NOT an upright, PERIOD. It was going in the living
room of my new house, and no matter how good a Charles Walter upright
would have sounded, it would have looked like CRAP. And the piano was
going there - PERIOD.
After learning what was out there in my price range, which was less
than $10,000, I was able to find a rebuilt 1974 Yamaha G1 (5'3"), with
a 10 year warranty from a reputable dealer (Cunningham Piano in
Philadelphia) for $7200.
It CAN be done.
One of the most important things to do in ANY search for something
(house, car, piano, etc...) is to decide what you want and how much you
have to spend. You wanted a nice small grand piano for $6,000 to
$8,000. It also seems like you had done some homework and had very
realistic expectations about what you would get for that money (no, it
wasn't going to be a Mason and Hamlin or Charles Walter) - but you
wanted a functional, decent sounding piano in your price range.
Other than a couple of posts that tried to extol the virtues of Chinese-
built pianos (which were promptly beaten down by the "experts"), NO ONE
seemed to help with OPTIONS that SPECIFICALLY addressed your post. The
reason for this, of course, is that there are NO acceptable options out
there that fit your needs and budget...right, guys?
Wrong. I just gave you one above. Oh, and by the way, that Yamaha G1
that I bought four years ago? I just traded it at Cunningham a couple
of months ago towards a new Estonia 6'3" - my old Yamaha was sold in
about a week - probably for about $7200. It could have been sold to
you.
If you've decided to wait until you get more money, that's cool. If
you have been CONVINCED that the "quality upright" option is the way
you want to go, that's also good - it's a great alternative to get good
sound and tone for a reasonable price. If your options are still open,
though, I still think that you can get something that fits the bill - a
used small Yamaha or Kawai - a low-mileage YC Pramberger, perhaps.
Maybe even one of those dreaded...do I dare say it...Samicks!! (Oh
NO!!! Honey, take the kids and run for the hills as fast as you
can!!! The SAMICKS are coming!!!). Sorry - I couldn't resist :-).
On these forums, there will ALWAYS be those who believe that unless you
buy a "quality" piano (i.e. Yamaha, Walter, Sauter, Petrof, etc...),
you're just pouring money down the toilet. That's not true. People
drive Ford Escorts and Tauruses for a reason, and one of them is that
they cannot afford a BMW. They're looking for decent transportation -
relatively safe, reliable and AFFORDABLE. Last time I looked, there
are a LOT of Tauruses on the road. My advice, buy what you want, spend
what you can afford, and look to forums like this for HELP and
OPTIONS. Good luck!
Bill
In article <IGo16.92885$15.19...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com>,
ale...@my-deja.com
I think you could find something like a used Yamaha C2
in your price range, which you could finance via your bank.
Keep in mind that a decent grand will afford more dynamic
control than any upright due to intrinsic action design differences.
Tone can vary, but that's why you play 'em before you buy 'em!
Last year I went from a Steinway studio (beautiful tone in
certain parts of the scale) to a used Yamaha C3. The $ values
were similar but the C3 is on the whole twice the piano
musically.
Given that you originally hoped to get a grand, I don't think
you should give up on grands just yet. The hardest part is
just getting up the courage and patience to start looking in the
used market. You can still save up for something even
better, and since you bought used can probably recover
most or all of your original outlay toward your new piano.
good luck, Alec
In article
<IGo16.92885$15.19...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com>,
"Brian Murphy" <br...@murfman.net> wrote:
bebop...@my-deja.com
I forgot to ask...did you play the Samick/K&C? If you did have a
chance to play it, what did YOU think??
Remember, NO ONE can tell you what sounds good to you. We can help
provide information, and let you know if you are getting a good deal or
whether there are other options out there to consider. However, at the
end of the day, if it feels right and sounds good to you, that's the
most important thing.
Happy Holidays!
Bill
In article <926ard$r18$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
vla...@my-deja.com
> Other than a couple of posts that tried to extol the virtues of
Chinese-
> built pianos (which were promptly beaten down by the "experts"), NO
ONE
> seemed to help with OPTIONS that SPECIFICALLY addressed your post.
The
> reason for this, of course, is that there are NO acceptable options
out
> there that fit your needs and budget...right, guys?
Bill
I have reread every post in this thread and I haven't been able to
identify those experts that you cited, would you point them out for me.
I also would not give much credibility to someone that bought a second
rate ex-russian piano and thinks it is the greatest thing in the world.
bebop...@my-deja.com
view of where Chinese-made pianos fall within the pecking order, your
hostility towards me is curious in light of the fact that my post tried
(pathetically, in your view, I guess...) to defend your position.
Both Rick Clark and Mark Eisenman wrote less-than-flattering pieces on
low-end (they would say cheap) grand pianos -- Mark's post went so far
to also rip entry-level Samicks as well. If you have been a regular to
this forum, this discussion should not be new to you, but in case you
have just recently started contributing to this forum, the dance goes
something like this:
1) Potential piano buyer wants to know if a particular inexpensive
and/or small (less than 6-foot) grand piano costing $10,000 or less is
a viable option for someone who does not have the money to buy a Mason
and Hamlin, but still wants to own a grand piano.
2) Responses come in. Some (such as yours) DO try and specifically
answer the question by putting the piano in question within some
price/value framework (i.e. Pearl River versus K&C versus Samick,
etc...) and provide options given the posters budget and desires (they
want a GRAND, NOT an upright). Others make the vaild suggestion that
perhaps a quality upright is an option worth considering - with or
without the always enjoyable "Samicks are CRAP" addendum. Still others
give NO substantive help to the posters - and the tone of the comments
will sometimes include some kind of pithy, self-serving rip at the
poster that reeks of condescension.
In my opinion (and you have clearly communicated to me in your response
what you think of that), there are some participants on this Forum who
think that anyone who buys a Chinese-made piano or (heaven forbid) a
small Samick grand is just throwing their money away. They are
entitled to that opinion. The REALITY is, however, that pianos at this
price point are still being purchased by SOMEBODY - because it fits
their needs (limited budget, modest expectations for the piano, they
don't want an upright, etc...). Fortunately there are those regular
participants (including people in the business like Larry Fletcher or
Rich from Cunningham) who will give honest, value-added information to
that piano buyer (and there are a LOT of them) looking for help.
And as far as your personal rip at me relating to Estonia pianos (which
is NOT the greatest piano in the world, but an solid price/value
proposition that others on this Forum would agree with) - I don't do
cockfights. Go find someone else to sling mud with.
Bill
In article <92akic$km1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
vla...@my-deja.com
I was really wanting that list of experts you talked about in your
first post, and what makes them experts.
In 2000 the Chinese increased their imports of verticals by 62%, and
their Grands by 28%. The forcast for 2001 is they will be second only
to Japan in Grands and the leader in verticals. They must be doing
something right, or the American public is stupid. In 3 years they made
as much progress as the Eastern block countries made in 10. What do You
think the next 3 years will bring?
Larry
>is NOT the greatest piano in the world, but an solid price/value
>proposition that others on this Forum would agree with) - I don't do
>cockfights. Go find someone else to sling mud with.
Oohh......Bebop....I didn't realize the guy was referring to Estonias. I
thought he was talking about a Belarus or something. So two points:
1. Estonia pianos are excellent instruments, and offer a lot of piano for the
money.
2. I *do* do cockfights.
;-)
Dave Zappa
vla...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92b4ic$1bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> or the American public is stupid.
We elected Clinton - twice. Not to mention we let him get away with
misusing his power to obtain a "hummer" (show me any other CEO who got his
unit caught in some 22 year old intern's oraface and didn't get fired and
I'll whistle Zippidy Doo Dah out my sphincter). We let him get away with
LYING RIGHT TO OUR FACE ON NATIONAL TV "I did not have sexual relations with
that woman" - PeeeeeeUuuuuuuuu. To top things off his wife who actually
put up with this behavior for years because she is simply POWER HUNGRY will
be a US Senator in 2 weeks. (That makes New Yorkers EXTRA stupid) If I
were a Democrat I would be embarrased beyond words. Any Democrat who has
any level of support of sympathy for the soon-to-be ex President or his wife
should be ASHAMED of themselves! (Please flame me on this - I'm tired of
arguing it with my dad, he just doesn't want to own up to the fact that
Clinton got caught with his pants down, literally, and should have resigned)
Other measures of our public stupidity:
The best we could come up with was Bush vs.Gore
We elected a dead guy Senator in Missouri (what's up with that?)
Playstation 2's were going for $800 on ebay last week.
Some idiot paid $70,000 for the Ryder truck that transported ballots in
Florida.
Lots of idiots paid $80+/share for toys.com stock (and I bash Baldwin for
having bad return.)
Two words: Michael Jackson
Three letters: WWF
Your high school football program is much better funded that the music
department.
John Lennon was killed in NYC because some psycho thought he was the Walrus.
Do I really need to rant on?
Trust me - the American public is incredibly stupid - Koo-koo kachoo.....
bebop...@my-deja.com
bebop...@my-deja.com
I AGREE with you. Did you miss that in my initial post? One of the
points that I was making in my initial post was that the only helpful
reply to the guy's initial query about value in a small, inexpensive
grand piano came from YOU...only to be promptly shot down by (among
others) this guy Dave Zappa, who once again joins the fray not with
something substantive, but a Beatles lyric.
After your initial response to me, I ONCE AGAIN referred to Chinese
pianos as a viable option to consider for the budget-challenged entry-
level piano shopper - remember my point about how some people on this
forum (you know, the ones who actually put themselves in the poster's
shoes and try to HELP) would compare and contrast Pearl River with
Samick or K&C. I do NOT have brand envy - witness my purchase of an
Estonia. I assure you that I could have purchased ANY PIANO I WANTED,
but I didn't need to spend 40 to 60 grand to show EVERYONE how WEALTHY
and REFINED I am. All I cared about was TONE and FEEL, and FOR ME, the
Estonia got the job done (quite nicely) for less than HALF of what some
on this board spent for their high-pedigree instruments. Point is, I'm
not putting down other pianos (there are a LOT of great instruments out
there) - it's just that I was definitely OK with the Estonia.
For those who want an inexpensive grand piano, have rational
expectations about what they're getting, and are healthy enough not to
worry what SOME will say about the name on the fallboard, a piano like
the Pearl River is a VIABLE OPTION. It's not the ONLY option. And if
I'm not mistaken, Larry Fletcher described a piano made by Pearl River
(a 5'3" Ritmuller) that has (among other things) a solid sitka spruce
soundboard, rock maple rim and a FULL Renner action for less than
$9,000. It may play and sound nice - it may play and sound like CRAP.
However, I believe that a shopper with an OPEN MIND (something that I
wish more posters would have around this issue) that is looking for an
inexpensive grand piano should at least check something like that out -
it sounds like a lot of piano for the money.
Or, they could just buy a "quality" upright :-).
I HOPE that I have made myself clear on this issue. Truce?
Bill
In article <92b4ic$1bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Dave Zappa
bebop...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92bkp5$dc4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Wait a minute.
>
>I AGREE with you. Did you miss that in my initial post? One of the
>points that I was making in my initial post was that the only helpful
>reply to the guy's initial query about value in a small, inexpensive
>grand piano came from YOU...only to be promptly shot down by (among
>others) this guy Dave Zappa, who once again joins the fray not with
>something substantive, but a Beatles lyric.
Whoa there pardner! Do you infer that because of my post (which was meant
as HUMOR) I am in any way minimalizing your opinion because I may disagree
with it? I'm not shooting you down at all. Please go back and notice I
nuked ALL of your post except the comment about the American public. Even
that statement was not offered as opinion or fact, but just as a qualifier.
I am of the personal belief that yes, the American public is rather stupid
or they just don't care (especially politcally). So I decided to comment.
Now, if you look at the header it read "OT" which means I was going off
topic, and not making a comment on that particular thread. The post was
meant to get a chuckle, it wasn't meant to demean your opinion or anything
of and nature toward you - it was just simply something to make one think
written in a humorous context.
Finally, if you want substance go look at my postings here dating back to
1996. There's plenty there. Part of my personality is I also like to go
off on tangents, therefore you will see that from time to time on the group.
So, your generalistic statement that I "once again join the fray not with
something substantive" may ring true with those posts of mine that you
choose to read, but I have offered plenty of substance to this group over
the years, and insulting me about a obviously TIC post won't score you any
points on the diplomatic-o-meter.
You want my opinion on Nordiska pianos vs. KC? Don't have one. I have
never seen a Nordiska piano. You want my opinion on buying a GP for $10K?
Get educated and buy a nice used one.
I don't know why you have a beef with me Bill, can you enlighten me?
DZ
vla...@my-deja.com
WHO ARE THE SO CALLED EXPERTS THAT WERE CITED IN THE ORIGINAL POST?
THAT IS A SIMPLE QUESTION, OR DO I HAVE TO ASK IT IN PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH
WITH A GEORGIA ACCENT FOR YA'll TO GET IT?
Trim the combs, and hone the spurs!
vla...@my-deja.com
a monopoly on stupid. The largest selling toy/item in Europe this
Christmas Season was Big Mouth Billy Bass.
bebop...@my-deja.com
You are an idiot.
Did you notice the quotations around the word *expert* in my initial
post?? In my language (Pennsylvania Dutch), that is called SARCASM.
This is hopeless. I have written two EXCRUTIATINGLY long posts to you
in an attempt to clarify my position (in support of your position on
Chinese pianos), and all you do is insult me. You insult my personal
choice of piano (Estonia), you insult my ability to communicate my
position clearly (something that no one on either piano-related forum
has ever had a problem with). I don't actually believe that I am
stepping down to your level to respond to you.
Bill
In article <92cq9r$70t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Tom W. Ferguson
What's incredible about it? Which gets your sentence down to five words.
What's American about it? Donald Duck, Poe, Jerry Lewis and Mickey Rourke
are favorites in Paris. Which gets it down to four words. On the other hand,
a lot of the most "stupid" people would sooner have used kerosene as a Big
Mac condiment than invest in a dot.com. So maybe it's all relative.
Richard Galassini
>choice of piano (Estonia), you insult my ability to communicate my
>position clearly (something that no one on either piano-related forum
>has ever had a problem with). I don't actually believe that I am
>stepping down to your level to respond to you.
>
>Bill
>
>In article <92cq9r$70t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> vla...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> I WILL ASK THIS REAL SLOW, ONE MORE TIME, SO YOU GUYS CAN UNDERSTAND.
>> WHO ARE THE SO CALLED EXPERTS THAT WERE CITED IN THE ORIGINAL POST?
>> THAT IS A SIMPLE QUESTION, OR DO I HAVE TO ASK IT IN PENNSYLVANIA
>DUTCH
>> WITH A GEORGIA ACCENT FOR YA'll TO GET IT?
>> Trim the combs, and hone the spurs!
>>
>> Sent via Deja.com
>> http://www.deja.com/
>>
>
I have refrained from joining this fray, but I must add that I am as
frustrated as you. Sometimes its best to "walk away".
Larry
Uh..............
>Donald Duck, Poe, Jerry Lewis and Mickey Rourke
>are favorites in Paris. Which gets it down to four words.
Uh............somehow I'm not coming up with the same totals as you. Did I fail
to carry a one or something?
Just kidding.
Larry
Cock Robin, William Tell, Donald Duck, and JOHN WAYNE....a great Amurikan
heero......y'all.....!
Are my spurs honed enough for ya?
Tom W. Ferguson
> fail
> to carry a one or something?
The public is stupid.
(Four words. Having subtracted "American" and "incredibly.")
> Just kidding.
I know, I think.
bebop...@my-deja.com
I apologize to you...it seems that I have gotten sucked into a black
hole of a thread that I can't get out of gracefully.
The frustration that I have is that while rational people can disagree
about whether a Pearl River or Samick piano is actually an instrument
worth considering for purchase (a point that we OBVIOUSLY disagree on),
the negative responses to queries by people looking at these low-end
grand pianos often do not come with any REALISTIC alternatives. The
guy that started this thread apparently did some homework, and, in my
opinion, knew what he was getting into in terms of what he was buying
(he knows that he's not getting a Charles Walter). He also clearly
stated that he did NOT want an upright. His question, then, was "based
on the framework that I have set out, should I buy Piano A, Piano B or
Piano C? Or is there a piano that I have not suggested IN MY PRICE
RANGE that I should consider?" Suggesting an upright is a good idea -
except he said he DID NOT WANT an upright. With all that said, to just
say "all these pianos suck - don't waste your money" may have some
informational value, but doesn't really answer his post (i.e. which one
of these pianos do you like?).
As far as your usage of humor in your posts, I think it's great! My
only problem is that the person that you were writing to was trying to
say something serious (defending the rapid increase in sales of Chinese
pianos in the American market). Yes, he did put that comment in his
piece about "either the American people are stupid..." - at which point
you went off on your funny (and Republican-slanted :-), I might add!)
description of America. However, you really did not answer his
question, which is if Chinese pianos are in fact worthless pieces of
trash, why are they selling so well? It can't just be that everyone
(including some pretty reputable dealers who I don't think would put
their franchise's reputation on the line by selling totally worthless
pieces of trash...) is stupid, can it? Maybe, just maybe:
1) The quality of these things are actually getting better, and
2) Maybe these pianos fill a niche in this market! Maybe people who
cannot afford a Charles Walter or M&H don't care about the name on the
fallboard. Maybe they only have "x" amount to spend, and they want a
NEW piano with a WARRANTY.
But you didn't extend the debate. You decided that it would be more
fun to write about how stupid Americans are. And it WAS a funny piece -
I DID enjoy reading it! But how did it help Brian in deciding whether
a Chinese-made Pearl River piano is a viable option or not?
That's the main point I was trying to make. The focus should be on
helping the poster (Brian) make a great decision, not on writing witty,
biting satire or getting into food fights with each other.
Once again, my apologies.
Bill
In article <2Yl26.27$Gl6....@news1.primary.net>,
"Dave Zappa" <dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com> wrote:
>
> bebop...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92bkp5$dc4
bebop...@my-deja.com
Thanks for the advice. Y'know, until the last post, I actually thought
that I was having an intelligent conversation with the guy. Shows how
naive I am.
Bill
In article <20001227091753...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
vla...@my-deja.com
when Dave posted, Brian had already changed his mind about an Asian
piano thanks to the "experts". He is ready to accept something now that
was definitely not up for consideration when he started. My reference
to "experts" was also sarcasm, where I come from 2 bit piano peddlers
are not considered experts.
vla...@my-deja.com
Your experts are 2 cartoon characters, one fictional person, and an
actor. This explains the mentality of your posts. Thank You very much
for clearing this up. I understand you a lot better now, and I think I
will be able to be more tolerant of you.
In article <20001227094359...@ng-df1.aol.com>,
bebop...@my-deja.com
new post came from :-). He is still looking at the Far East though
(the "value" pianos in Yamaha and Kawai) - quite frankly, it's going to
be hard NOT to look there when your budget limit is $11K. I think that
it's great that Brian has increased his budget - it makes the job of
finding a piano that will satisfy his needs much easier.
I'm not a piano salesman - I'm a financial analyst and money manager
that doesn't give a DAMN what anybody buys. All I try and do is help -
if I think I can. I have NO OTHER agenda. If someone says, "I have
$7,000 to $8,000 to spend on a NEW GRAND piano - what are my
options?", I will suggest options - PERIOD. They can take it or leave
it - it doesn't cost them anything. If it helps them, great! If you
don't agree with my opinion, that's cool, too. This forum is about
exchanging views and opinions. If I step on someone's toes in the
process, I assure you that's it's nothing personal - I'm not trying to
win any diplomacy awards. Before I FINALLY leave this thread, I
apologize to any and all that I have offended.
Bill
In article <92d5dk$fga$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Larry
>to "experts" was also sarcasm, where I come from 2 bit piano peddlers
>are not considered experts.
Since I'm not a 2 bit piano peddler, I can tell that wasn't aimed at me.
I'm worth 4 bits if I've got a cent.
Larry
>
>I know, I think.
I was.
imagin...@my-deja.com
"Dave Zappa" <dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com> wrote:
> I'll whistle Zippidy Doo Dah out my sphincter).
One of my favorite songs! (Except it's spelled Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah on the
original sheet.) Gilbert/Wrubel are two of the must underrecognized
songwriters around.
I usually play it in Bb..In what key do you "whistle it out your
sphincter"? Perhaps we can record a duet and post it to MP3.COM. Can
you also do "Ev'rybody Has a Laughing Place?"
--
ib
Larry
>Your experts are 2 cartoon characters, one fictional person, and an
>actor. This explains the mentality of your posts. Thank You very much
>for clearing this up. I understand you a lot better now, and I think I
>will be able to be more tolerant of you.
Gee, thanks. Now all we have to do is come up with a way to tolerate you, and
we've covered all the bases, haven't we?
I don't even know what you guys are talking about. I'm just trying to add a
little levity to the thing. From what I have seen, the whole thread needs it.
vla...@my-deja.com
to bring their roosters down. The would come in swaggering and boasting
with their pretty birds, but they would leave a little poorer, and a
lot more humble with a handful of feathers. It is good to see that some
things don't change:-)
Tom Shaw
I think I have already mentioned that opinion is a matter of faith and that
logic has nothing to do with it. I love your post but it will not change
anybody's faith. One of the wonderful comments you will hear from the
electorate is " I always vote Democrat (or Republican or whatever)"...that
is a mind embedded in concrete. In other words, with respect to the case in
point, Clinton would have won a third term if he could have run because
some folks "...always vote Democrat".
my 2 cents
TS
"Dave Zappa" <dza...@qni.com> wrote in message
news:y_a26.19$Gl6....@news1.primary.net...
Thomas D. Seay, III
wrote:
> In article <y_a26.19$Gl6....@news1.primary.net>,
> "Dave Zappa" <dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com> wrote:
>
> > I'll whistle Zippidy Doo Dah out my sphincter).
>
> I usually play it in Bb..In what key do you "whistle it out your
> sphincter"?
Would that be in a "hole-tone" scale?
Happy holidays to you all.
--
Tom Seay
School of Music
The University of Texas at Austin
WP
range, I will buy a quality used grand. A good upright offers more
musical value, but my dream is owning a grand. I would not buy a new
chinese made piano. Others have made some good points about questionable
quality and reliability. I see them as like japan and korean makes in
early days. Initially, there were many problems with their pianos. It
took them a long time to solve problems and started making competitve
pianos. They needed to prove themselves. You will read about them in
Larry Fine's book. For me, I don't need a new piano. There are good used
grands for that price range, why bother with a questionable one?
The other factor is resale. The resale value of the pianos you mentioned
aren't going to be good compare to name brands like a used Yamaha,
Kawai, Petrof, etc. The name brands are also easier to sell because
people recognize their names (doesn't mean the best values). Since your
wife is getting back to piano and your two kids are just learning, their
needs are probably modest. If I were you, I would buy a quality used
grand (or upright in your case) and if their needs increase, I can
resell it at reasonable price and buy a better one.
Just my $0.02.
WP
In article <92b4ic$1bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
vla...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Bill
> I was really wanting that list of experts you talked about in your
> first post, and what makes them experts.
Are you new here? There are many piano technicians in this newsgroup.
>
> In 2000 the Chinese increased their imports of verticals by 62%, and
> their Grands by 28%. The forcast for 2001 is they will be second only
> to Japan in Grands and the leader in verticals. They must be doing
Yes, it has been reported that the chinese increased their imports of
SS, MH, Boston, Yamaha to study the quality of these pianos so as to
raise their own for exports.
> something right, or the American public is stupid. In 3 years they
made
> as much progress as the Eastern block countries made in 10. What do
You
> think the next 3 years will bring?
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
These numbers doesn't mean a damn thing about their quality. What they
are doing right is providing cheap labors and export oriented economy.
China makes millions of DVD players now, but nobody are comparing their
quality to Sony, Panasonic, etc.
You like to question other people's statement. Are you a lawyer? Tell me
what's attractive to the chinese pianos beside low price?
vla...@my-deja.com
WP <cok...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> In article <92b4ic$1bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> vla...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Bill
> > I was really wanting that list of experts you talked about in your
> > first post, and what makes them experts.
>
> Are you new here? There are many piano technicians in this newsgroup.
>
> These numbers doesn't mean a damn thing about their quality. What they
> are doing right is providing cheap labors and export oriented economy.
> China makes millions of DVD players now, but nobody are comparing
their
> quality to Sony, Panasonic, etc.
>
> You like to question other people's statement. Are you a lawyer? Tell
me
> what's attractive to the chinese pianos beside low price?
I was asking about specific "experts" that made comments, I wasn't
able to identify the "experts" from any one else and I am new here and
would sure like to know who are considered experts and why, so I can be
in awe of them like everyone else.
The Chinese in 2001 will, except for Japan, probably export more pianos
into the U.S. than any other country. I was not comparing their pianos
to any other!!!! The "experts" were telling how inferior Chinese pianos
are to all the other pianos in the world. These "experts" also praised
their chinese pianos in other posts. I am just trying to get things
sorted out, so I can understand. When you have dealers of Eastern Block
pianos say that there is nothing great about Chinese pianos, it gets
confusing, and you question their motivation.
Dave Zappa
Thomas D. Seay, III wrote in message ...
>> I usually play it in Bb..In what key do you "whistle it out your
>> sphincter"?
>
>Would that be in a "hole-tone" scale?
Thomas: You've been MIA for quite a while. How are you? And thanks for
beating me to the punch......
Yogi Panda
> played the piano recreationally for some time but has not had access to one
> in
> about 10 years. She would like to get back into it and become a little more
> serious (not professional though). We also have two kids and would like to
> have a piano available for them (piano lessons, etc.).
I found the postings in this thread amusing rather than anything else,
although perhaps not for the original poster. I'd like to point out that
the original poster is buying a piano for the above stated purpose.
My take on it is that a Korean grand piano within your budget can be
satisfactory for up to intermediate level of playing. So, if your wife
plays at around a grade 5 level of a 10 grade conservatory, then you are
in luck, me thinks, i.e. a straightforward purchase of a new piano from
a dealership. If your wife plays better than that, then the acquisition
becomes trickier, I agree with the notions of _carefully_ shopping for a
used Japanese piano being your best bet.
I have said the above a number of times and perhaps a little analogon is
helpful here. My neighbor's son has a $2K bike, he does competitive
biking, and thinks his parents ought to buy him a $20K bike. I myself
have a $20 bike that I picked up somewhere, I ride around the block and
to the closest park once in a blue moon, and think that a $2 bike would
make me happy already. The point is what you want to do with the
piano/bike.
Yogi
Dave Zappa
bebop...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92d3qh$e4c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Dave:
>
>I apologize to you...it seems that I have gotten sucked into a black
>hole of a thread that I can't get out of gracefully.
Apology accepted, and thank you.
>The frustration that I have is that while rational people can disagree
>about whether a Pearl River or Samick piano is actually an instrument
>worth considering for purchase (a point that we OBVIOUSLY disagree on),
>the negative responses to queries by people looking at these low-end
>grand pianos often do not come with any REALISTIC alternatives.
I would not ever completely disregard the option of a Chinese-built piano,
as I do believe they are getting better. I remember the first one that
really impressed me was the 48" that Young Chang made (can't remember the
model U121C?) that was built in China and seemed vaguely familiar to a U1.
It was no U1, but it only cost $3000 retail and I thought was a solid value
for what you were buying (this was about 4 years ago) I sold several to
people who wanted the BIG tone but didn't want to shell out the dough for a
Japanese or Korean studio. I certainly thought they were better than the
grey market pianos we had been experimenting with.
> Maybe, just maybe:
>1) The quality of these things are actually getting better, and
>2) Maybe these pianos fill a niche in this market! Maybe people who
>cannot afford a Charles Walter or M&H don't care about the name on the
>fallboard. Maybe they only have "x" amount to spend, and they want a
>NEW piano with a WARRANTY.
I agree with you 100% on both these points.
>But you didn't extend the debate. You decided that it would be more
>fun to write about how stupid Americans are. And it WAS a funny piece -
> I DID enjoy reading it! But how did it help Brian in deciding whether
>a Chinese-made Pearl River piano is a viable option or not?
Now I am extending the debate by agreeing that if you educate yourself about
pianos, know what your fiscal limitations are, and look at options in both
the new and used market you will probably get the right piano - whether it
is built in China or 100 years old. For 10k in a grand piano I personally
would exercise a little patience and find a decent used C3, but I have
connections and don't mind buying a piano with no warranty. If I were the
average consumer (like Brian) I would take some time to learn about pianos
in general from several sources, explore what options were available to me
at that time, decide if one of them fit and if so buy it. If I didn't feel
comfortable buying a used piano, or wanted a solid warranty I would
certainly consider a Chinese-built piano.
***WARNING: THE NEXT PARAGRAPH IS PURE SATIRE DESIGNED TO BRING A SMILE TO
LARRY FLETCHER AND STEVE COHEN***
Actually I think that because the YC warranty is superior in every way,
shape and form to the warranties of other Korean pianos (including the
second-rate "off-brands" made by YC) I would get one. Also because they are
designed and personally crafted by the only Steinway engineer ever to make a
significant impact on S&S in a century, Joe Pramburger. Not to mention it
is the only Chinese piano built with a hard-rock maple rim, asymetrically
crowned soundboard, crowned ribs (please God, make me stop...), a tunneled
bridge design and each and every instrument being personally inspected,
voiced and regulated by the ghost of William Steinweig.
***END OF SATIRE***
>That's the main point I was trying to make. The focus should be on
>helping the poster (Brian) make a great decision, not on writing witty,
>biting satire or getting into food fights with each other.
<perk> food fights? :-)
>Once again, my apologies.
TWO apologies? I like you.....
DZ, but my friends call me Zap :-)
Thomas D. Seay, III
<dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for asking. I've been fine, mostly lurking about rmmp these days.
Had a death in the family four days before Christmas, so this year was
not so joyous for us. But I'm okay.
Dwain Lee
Pennsylvania Dutch is your language, do you use the phrase "outen the
lights?"
Dwain
bebop...@my-deja.com
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I didn't mean to mess with a
Forum "lifer" - and PLEASE do NOT stop flexing your satirical wit on my
behalf ("Don't worry about that..."). Between you and Larry, we need
all the levity we can get on this board.
You seem nice for a Republican :-).
Bill
In article <pgw26.48$Gl6....@news1.primary.net>,
bebop...@my-deja.com
The only Pennsylvania Dutch I know is from "Witness".
I'm glad this thread is finally dead. I got into a hissing match with
Dave Zappa (hopefully, we've patched that up), and gave that guy more
ammo to flap his gums. He's not worth going OT. Time to move on.
Thanks anyway!
Bill
In article <92e9is$d2d$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
Larry
>to bring their roosters down. The would come in swaggering and boasting
>with their pretty birds, but they would leave a little poorer, and a
>lot more humble with a handful of feathers. It is good to see that some
>things don't change:-)
I understand. But unlike Algore, I'm a Tennessean. We don't play games with our
food in Tennessee. If I want chicken, I go to Ramon's on Thursday nights - if
I want to gamble I go to Vegas (or open the doors on my business each morning
;-) )
Larry
>Dave Zappa (hopefully, we've patched that up)
I'm sure you have. Dave's OK.
Richard Galassini
>are to all the other pianos in the world. These "experts" also praised
>their chinese pianos in other posts. I am just trying to get things
>sorted out, so I can understand. When you have dealers of Eastern Block
>pianos say that there is nothing great about Chinese pianos, it gets
>confusing, and you question their motivation.
Did I say "walk away"?
Anyway, I have to add my 2 cents. I have a degree in music performance and
music education and I have worked with Cunningham Piano Co. of Philadelphia for
13 years. I have performed and have taught and have studied "what makes a piano
tick" in ways that not many salespeople are able to. On the premises we have 18
piano craftsmen and our rebuilding has brought customers from Japan, Korea,
Canada, Germany, and even New Jersey! :-)
We carry some Chinese pianos and some former Eastern Bloc pianos. Anyone who
knows something about how pianos are built could not compare them on an equal
plane. However, both regions can offer, when properly chosen, a very good value
in their respective price ranges.
Not all Chinese pianos or former Eastern Bloc pianos are made to the same
quality. It would be a mistake to lump all pianos (or any product, for that
matter) into a single category based on WHERE they are assembled/manufactured.
(Remember the Tokai, guys?)
I have never called myself an "expert", but others on this NG have. I hope this
input helps.
Dave Zappa
bebop...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92ea3j$dl8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>DZ:
>You seem nice for a Republican :-).
Actaully I am neither a Democrat or Repulican, but I do come across as
having plenty of Republican slant just because I think the Democrats (in
general here) are not terribly capitalistic, and would like to turn the US
in to a social state (ie: healthcare for EVERYONE - which in concept is
great but in practice, well ask Canada). If you had to align me with any
one party I'm Libertarian, but even that philosphy has some issues I don't
agree with.
Bottom line, I'm a hard-ass on social issues (work for welfare - in this
economy every able-bodied person should have a job), conservative on fiscal
issues and think that the federal governement should do what it was formed
to do, protect the soverignty of the US. Let the states decide everything
else. If you don't like the way your state is run politically you move,
enough people move and the state is forced to make changes. It's pure
capitalism - make the government work for your business (taxes). Patriots
in the 18th century threw tea into Boston Harbor because the British
government was collect taxes from them and not representing their interests.
Anyone feel that we're back at that point?
PAC money has to stop. "Lifers" in Congress has to stop (is Strom Thurmond
dead yet?) We have to take away the financial incentives to run for
government, then big business and power lobbys will not be able to dictate
our domestic policy (which sucks). We need to quit being the world's
policeman. In some cases it's appropriate, but Somalia was a DISASTER and
we should not have stepped in. For the record, I think the Bosnian effort
and the Gulf war were appropriate uses of our military.
Anyway - I rant on......
DZ
vla...@my-deja.com
take no prisoners boasts, and have read as you attacked good people on
this board, I expected that this Georgia peach would have whiskers
instead of fuzz. You really disappoint me larry, but I am not surprised.
Well you and dickie enjoy yourselves in your fantasy world where ya'll
think that you are so great. You convinced me.
In article <20001228005701...@ng-ce1.aol.com>,
vla...@my-deja.com
have Chinese pianos, and ex-Russian pianos, but do you sell any real
pianos?
In article <20001228070725...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
bebop...@my-deja.com
cajones to take on the extremes of either party. Despite the fact that
he was a moral reprobate, Clinton at least tried in certain areas (i.e.
welfare reform) to take on the hard left. I also find it interesting
that the major party most aligned with the concept of getting
government out of our lives (the Republicans) sees no problem placating
the hard right with its continued advancement (particularly at the
state level) of legislation restricting a woman's right to
choose...Hey, what is it - we want less government except in situations
where we believe that we have the "moral" authority to do something (a
game that Democrats have played very well for a long time).
A pox on both their houses. Even though I am a Democrat, I would have
voted for John McCain in a heartbeat (even though he wants to repeal
Roe v. Wade...). Heard him speak at the Charles Schwab conference in
September -- I would think that two of you have much common ground.
Bill
In article <M9H26.67$Gl6....@news1.primary.net>,
"Dave Zappa" <dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com> wrote:
>
> bebop...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92ea3j$dl8
bebop...@my-deja.com
PLEASE let this thing die...your rapier-like wit is unquestioned on
this board - it's not worth wasting on this guy.
Bill
In article <92fg4l$8hc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Yogi Panda
> have Chinese pianos, and ex-Russian pianos, but do you sell any real
> pianos?
You will rarely get any agreement in this newsgroup (or get any
agreement anywhere else on the Internet, for that matter) but there does
seem to be some agreement among those who visited the store, that
Cunningham is selling real pianos as well, such as Steinways,
Boesendorfers, Mason & Hamlins, etc and anything that you may want to
call real pianos, they carry a large selection.
Yogi
LEC
nice selection of rebuilt Steinways amongst others.
I visited over 50 dealers before I bought my piano, from Cunningham. They
have an excellent selection, and their pianos are the best prepped that I
saw anywhere.
vla...@my-deja.com wrote in message <92fgh7$8ti$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
mason clark
>Actaully I am neither a Democrat or Repulican, but I do come across as
>having plenty of Republican slant just because I think the Democrats (in
>general here) are not terribly capitalistic, and would like to turn the US
>in to a social state (ie: healthcare for EVERYONE - which in concept is
>great but in practice, well ask Canada).
I have (my wife's family is Canadian). They like their system
and think ours is criminal.
( Noww someone will tell the story of Canadians travelling to
the U.S. for medical care. Such ignorant someones are
not aware of the relative size of the U.S. and Canada and
the consequent specialized care in the U.S. They've never
heard of the Mayo Clinic, for one example.)
Mason C
mason clark
> Somalia was a DISASTER and we should not have stepped in.
We went into Somalia for one reason: starving people. We stopped
the starvation. Our expedition was a success. (Yes, we lost some
lives because of an incompetent military command -- sometimes
soldiers get killed.)
Mason
sorry to be posting this on rmmp where it doesn't belong, but a
response to stupidities was necessary
Dwain Lee
mason clark <mas...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:0m5n4tk01kar6vgnb...@4ax.com...
No one would have ever heard of it, if we had socialized healthcare here.
Dwain
Larry
>
>PLEASE let this thing die...your rapier-like wit is unquestioned on
>this board - it's not worth wasting on this guy.
>
>Bill
oh........okee dokee......... ;-)
I was having a good time, though!
Brian
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 07:28:29 -0600, "Dave Zappa" <dza...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>>Actaully I am neither a Democrat or Repulican, but I do come across as
>>having plenty of Republican slant just because I think the Democrats (in
>>general here) are not terribly capitalistic, and would like to turn the US
>>in to a social state (ie: healthcare for EVERYONE - which in concept is
>>great but in practice, well ask Canada).
>
> I have (my wife's family is Canadian). They like their system
> and think ours is criminal.
Ditto. And we also know how to count votes in a non-partisan way.
Brian
Downunder
vla...@my-deja.com
Rapier-like wit, Heh Heh Heh that is a good one. You know when I read
that I about fell on the floor, I had this vision of old fuzzy in a
pink TuTu doing a ballet with a rapier as a prop. Is that warped or
what. I guess it kind of shows what my opinion of him is. Rapier-like
wit :-):-) Heh Heh that takes the cake.
In article <20001228171922...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
so...@webtv.net
"rapier" post.
Good to see-> there are at least a very precious few on here-> that have
a sense of the absurd!! And, let me tell you, the absurdity that
permeates heavily throughout this-> Spaceship RMMP-> is at such an
extreme level sometimes you don't even need to have a "sense of it"->
'cause it literally hits you over the head with amazing force. We are
talking-> nuclear-> absurdity!!!! "Oh, the humanity!!"-> ABSURDITY!! But
still very few acknowledge the obvious. I am convinced that the people
who do not "acknowledge the absurdity of many of these posts at the
RMMP" are either insufferable idiots or just unimaginable wimps. Good to
see you are neither.
Peace,
David
(c)2000 "Davey Slayer"
*********************************************
<snip>
Re: Nordiska vs. Kohler and Campbell
Group: rec.music.makers.piano Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000, 5:35am (EST-7)
From: vla...@my-deja.com
Richard Galassini
>You convinced the hell out of me, I am realllly impressed. You say you
>have Chinese pianos, and ex-Russian pianos, but do you sell any real
>pianos?
>
>
For the record, most former Eastern Bloc citizens (Estonia and The Czech Rep.
for example) would be insulted that they are being referred to as
"ex-Russians". I made the mistake of speaking Russian to the President of the
Estonia company when he visited Cunningham. He politely explained that the
Russians invaded his country and this wasn't a polite thing to do in Estonia.
Anyway, at Cunningham we carry Mason & Hamlin, Bosendorfer, Charles Walter,
Estonia, and many other "not real" :-) pianos?
Thank you for your interest
Endo
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 07:28:29 -0600, "Dave Zappa" <dza...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>>Actaully I am neither a Democrat or Repulican, but I do come across as
>>having plenty of Republican slant just because I think the Democrats (in
>>general here) are not terribly capitalistic, and would like to turn the US
>>in to a social state (ie: healthcare for EVERYONE - which in concept is
>>great but in practice, well ask Canada).
>
Ask a "poor" American which system they prefer.
Tom Shaw
TS
"Endo" <n...@no.email> wrote in message
news:2m7p4tol807gsb5ea...@4ax.com...
Tom W. Ferguson
No. Ask a lower-middle-class American. Poor Americans have Medicaid, which
spends more than the entire national budget of a good many countries.
This is a complex issue, even more so than piano plate technology, and I'd
love to go at it with those whose simple-mindedness on the subject is
exceeded only by Dame Hillary's. Anybody know the proper forum to do so? I
keep looking here for Larry vs. Panda et al, and all this medical stuff gets
in the way.
Dwain Lee
Endo <n...@no.email> wrote in message
news:2m7p4tol807gsb5ea...@4ax.com...
> wrote:
> Ask a "poor" American which system they prefer.
Ask anyone who has less money than you if they would like to have yours.
Tom Shaw
capitalism and communism which is now, in the politically correct way of
saying, called socialism. I would suggest we keep it out of rmmp lest blood
be let :-).
TS
"Tom W. Ferguson" <t...@pathwaynet.com> wrote in message
news:B6721645.955%t...@pathwaynet.com...
vla...@my-deja.com
they were occupied/dominated for over 40 years by the Russians, and the
pianos in those countries were developed during this period, the
biggest customer during this period were the Russians and they were
made to their specs, wouldn't this make them Russian pianos?
In article <20001229085706...@ng-mc1.aol.com>,
Larry
>TS
Did you realize we are the only country that has fat poor people?
Richard Galassini
>they were occupied/dominated for over 40 years by the Russians, and the
>pianos in those countries were developed during this period, the
>biggest customer during this period were the Russians and they were
>made to their specs, wouldn't this make them Russian pianos?
I understand your confusion. But if Mexicans invaded .....say...British
Columbia.... would that then make the British Columbians Mexican?
** The above post is an example of sarcasm**
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
> Did you realize we are the only country that has fat poor people?
With all due respect, this is non-sense and mean. Bad food can cause
people to be very fat and ill. When, like in Russia, all the courses of
a meal are based on potatoes, there is no wonder that some people get
fat.
R.P.F.
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
>
> What we seem to be considering is a discussion on the relative merits of
> capitalism and communism which is now, in the politically correct way of
> saying, called socialism. I would suggest we keep it out of rmmp lest blood
> be let :-).
As a former follower of comrade Che Guevara I say Let's take it outside,
like men should do. Let blood paint our flag ! Red snow in Larry's
backyard ! Young Chang forever !
Avante popolo, a la riscosa....
Rodolfo Roso
vla...@my-deja.com
with 40+ years of influence, the products of the Eastern Block were
more Russian than American. The B.C.'s may not be Mexican, but after 40
years of domination they would be eating a lot of Tacos.
>
> I understand your confusion. But if Mexicans
invaded .....say...British
> Columbia.... would that then make the British Columbians Mexican?
>
> ** The above post is an example of sarcasm**
>
> Richard Galassini
> Cunningham Piano Co
> Phila,. Pa.
> 1 (800) 394-1117
> URL:http://www.hometown.aol.com/voce88/cunn.html
>
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
> Ask anyone who has less money than you if they would like to have yours.
William Gates was fishing. He caught a golden fish. Disgusted he was
about to throw it back in the river...but the fish asked him : "Hey,
Bill ! I'm a golden fish. What about a special wish ?". Bill pondered
for a while and then replied :"Okay, okay. Make your wish and I'll grant
it for you."
Dwain Lee
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:3A4DB4...@writeme.com...
> As a former follower of comrade Che Guevara I say Let's take it outside,
> like men should do. Let blood paint our flag ! Red snow in Larry's
> backyard ! Young Chang forever !
Ah, you bleeding heart, Socialist pig-dogs are all alike! All you want is
socialized healthcare, thin poor people, no rich people, fluoridated water,
cheap mass produced pianos from the Peoples Republic, and world domination!
Watch out, I warn you - there's a Commie spy hiding under every propstick
shipped out of Dogbei!!!
Outside you say? Outside it is!! I'll climb the ramparts with a broken,
Capitalist, bourbon bottle to fight for God, unblemished white snow, and my
Hoyt Clagwell upright! Let the war begin!!!
Dwain
(did I say Hoyt Clagwell? Extra trivia points to you if you know where that
phrase came from.)
Dwain Lee
Heh heh, that's good! I just saw a clip of him on the evening news tonight,
addressing a crowd. He broke the ice by asking, "So has anyone heard any
good lawyer jokes lately?"
Dwain
Richard Galassini
>like men should do. Let blood paint our flag ! Red snow in Larry's
>backyard ! Young Chang forever !
>
>Avante popolo, a la riscosa....
>
>Rodolfo Roso
Radu -
Dove abitato in Italia?
O, Tuo famiglia, dove vessuto in Italia?
Sono corretto?
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
> (did I say Hoyt Clagwell? Extra trivia points to you if you know where that
> phrase came from.)
"Green Acres" ?
Dwain Lee
> "Green Acres" ?
Yes, it was the brand of tractor that Oliver owned. Wow, you're good. But
after that last email, nothing would surprise me anymore!
Still looking for the horn helmet,
Dwain
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
> Dove abitato in Italia?
No, I never lived (nor visited, yet) Italy
>
> O, Tuo famiglia, dove vessuto in Italia?
No connection of my family to Italy
>
> Sono corretto?
No, you're wrong.
We were singing the Bandiera Rosa song as a joke.
In fact, I stopped learning Italian when I was not able to correctly
pronounce the double consonants (ragazza, I think). We were aiming for
perfection ...and it was easier to give up than to fail....
Between us, only, any romanian understands Italian. Italian music
(together with Italian movies and french music) was very popular in
Romania (almost no english spoken music). Domenico Modugno was my
favorite (although when he was singing in the Napolitan dialect I could
not understand a word).
To paraphrase our dear Arlene: "who spoke Latin ? The ancient romanians
!" (she said ancient italians).
Ciao,
Paolo
Patria nostra Romania, pulchra est !
Dave Zappa
Richard Galassini wrote in message
<20001229173535...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
>I understand your confusion. But if Mexicans invaded .....say...British
>Columbia.... would that then make the British Columbians Mexican?
>
>** The above post is an example of sarcasm**
If the Mexicans do want to invade British Columbia they're going to have to
go thru US! Oh wait, they have to go thru us anyway.....
**the above response is an example of taking sarcasm and expanding on it**
Tom Shaw
TS
"Dwain Lee" <dl...@dlarch.com> wrote in message
news:92je5u$2kr$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Radu Focshaner
Tom Shaw wrote:
> I knew Radu was smart but I cant believe he remembered that reference.
> TS
> >
> > > "Green Acres" ?
What is www.google.com for ?
Tom Shaw
TS
"Radu Focshaner" <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:3A4E453A...@writeme.com...
Dwain Lee
I'll have to take those points back. :-)
Dwain
Radu Focshaner <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:3A4E453A...@writeme.com...
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil
>
> I'm sorry, but web searches are not permitted in trivia contests.
Yes they are ! For a small fee, you might get help from a friend, via
the telephone. No one said the friend cannot do a web search or consult
an encyclopedia.
>I'm afraid I'll have to take those points back. :-)
How can you take back those points when you never gave them to me (or my
browser did not show them in your post).
Any way, have some ...............................................
Radu
Dwain Lee
Rodolfo Portamento Fritzweil <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:3A4EE6...@writeme.com...
>
> Any way, have some ...............................................
>
Dwain
Larry
>>
>Now I owe you. I only gave you .....
Don't you boys make me have to take my belt off.
;-)
Anonymous
news:20001230212041...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
> >> Any way, have some ...............................................
> >>
> >Now I owe you. I only gave you .....
>
>
> Don't you boys make me have to take my belt off.
>
I'd watch out .... When the belt comes off Larry, his pants aren't far
behind.
;-)
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