Difficulty level of Joplin pieces

[Chet Strzepa]

Folks,
could anyone roughly list some Joplin rags by difficultly level? I'm
guessing that "The Entertainer" is on the easy end and Maple Leaf is
on the harder side. I'm also interested in Pineapple Rag, Gladiolus,
Magnetic, Easy Winners, Heliotrope Bouquet, or any others.

Also, I was wondering how the difficulty level of Joplin's rags
compares to some pieces in the classical repertoire...I know enough
that they aren't up with Chopin's etudes, for example, but what about
Chopin's waltzes?

I realize that my questions are subjective, and would depend a lot on
the individual (and that there are many different types of difficulty
which are hard to compare, both musical and mechanical). I'm just
trying to get some idea from those of you who play some of these
pieces so I have a better idea of where to head with my own playing.

Any help appreciated,
Thanks,
Chet Strepa

[chris_...@my-deja.com]

> Folks,
> could anyone roughly list some Joplin rags by difficultly level? I'm
> guessing that "The Entertainer" is on the easy end and Maple Leaf is
> on the harder side. I'm also interested in Pineapple Rag, Gladiolus,
> Magnetic, Easy Winners, Heliotrope Bouquet, or any others.
>
> Also, I was wondering how the difficulty level of Joplin's rags
> compares to some pieces in the classical repertoire...I know enough
> that they aren't up with Chopin's etudes, for example, but what about
> Chopin's waltzes?
>

> Hmmm, I dont think maple leaf rag is that much harder than the
entertainer. Anyway, I haven't played taht many of joplin's pieces,
but here is what i know. To me,, most of his works are easier than
chopin's , or bach's (the once that i have played), and all of the
yare definately easier than liszt's, if you play his stuff.

-Chris Sutton

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Fredisg]

The Joplin Rags are not harder or easier than classical music, just different.
You need the following to play them well:

1. Excellent muscular memory so you can grab the root/fifth octaves in the
left hand completely effortlessly and certainly without looking.

2. A great finger legato so that the melody can be brought out in a linear
fashion without over-pedaling.

3. The ability to not only bring out melodic countermelodies, but rhymic ones
too.

The two biggest things that pianists do to ruin ragtime is that they play the
rags way too fast and with too much pedal. Ragtime has an elegance to it when
played well.

Do NOT listen to the Joshua Rifkin recordings of the Joplin rags. They are too
studied and steile.

DO listen to the William Bolcom recordings of the Joplin Rags. They are
elegant and graceful. Also, you should listen to the rags written by Bolcom
himself. An excellent one is called "Graceful Ghost".

Some of the easier Joplin Rags, IMO are Weeping Willow, Pinapple, and Swipsey
Cakewalk.

The Entertainer, Easy Winners, Maple Leaf are difficult because everyone knows
them and any and all mistakes will become too transparent.

Ragtime is a wonderful fun part of piano playing. Good luck and most of all,
have fun.
Irwin Goldberg....pianist, conductor.

[eromlignod]

Hi, Chet:

In a broad sense I consider most ragtime pieces at an
intermediate level. To compare them to Chopin waltzes is
comparing apples and oranges. There are aspects that make
ragtime more difficult than waltzes (such as syncopation) and
waltzes more difficult than rags (Chopin's immense capacity for
creativity in structure as opposed to a more rigid Joplin
structure). I can see how one might see similarities with
waltzes in the left hand. The biggest differences would be that
the bass note in ragtime is usually played in octaves (requiring
good accuracy and memory) and, of course, 4/4 time as opposed to
3/4 time.

As you say, difficulty is a very subjective thing. You'll find
that the term "intermediate" is bandied about rather loosely in
this group. There are those who consider Chopin's prelude op.
28, #4 as intermediate and then those that say the Fantasie-
Impromptu is intermediate. Of course these two pieces are
vastly separated in difficulty. I think some people confuse the
term "advanced" with "virtuosic" and reserve its use for very
few works. On a scale from one to ten (ten being most
difficult), though, I would consider Joplin rags anywhere from 3
to 5 or perhaps 6.

Don

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
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[Stu P]

Chet Strzepa wrote:
>
> Folks,
> could anyone roughly list some Joplin rags by difficultly level? I'm
> guessing that "The Entertainer" is on the easy end and Maple Leaf is
> on the harder side. I'm also interested in Pineapple Rag, Gladiolus,
> Magnetic, Easy Winners, Heliotrope Bouquet, or any others.

I've found two of Joplin's pieces in particular to be accessible to me
at
first:
- The Paragon Rag, and
- Binks's Waltz
I've had "The Complete Works" for about 6 months now, and I think it's
gonna
last a lifetime!

Stu

[Helge Gundersen [Mr]]

I've always thought that The Entertainer is harder than it looks. Has
anyone else had this experience?

Helge

In article <397f3bc7...@news.nycap.rr.com>, strzepa@i___b.c (Chet

[John H Remmers]

There's a range of difficulty in Joplin's work. I'd rank
"The Entertainer", "Maple Leaf", "Peacherine" as on the easier
side, and "The Cascades" and "Fig Leaf" as quite difficult.
"Pineapple", "Gladiolus", "Easy Winners", and "Heliotrope
Bouquet" are somewhere in the middle.

-John

Chet Strzepa wrote:
>
> Folks,
> could anyone roughly list some Joplin rags by difficultly level? I'm
> guessing that "The Entertainer" is on the easy end and Maple Leaf is
> on the harder side. I'm also interested in Pineapple Rag, Gladiolus,
> Magnetic, Easy Winners, Heliotrope Bouquet, or any others.
>

> Also, I was wondering how the difficulty level of Joplin's rags
> compares to some pieces in the classical repertoire...I know enough
> that they aren't up with Chopin's etudes, for example, but what about
> Chopin's waltzes?
>

[Smailliw]

John H Remmers <rem...@jremmers.org> wrote:
>There's a range of difficulty in Joplin's work. I'd rank
>"The Entertainer", "Maple Leaf", "Peacherine" as on the easier
>side, and "The Cascades" and "Fig Leaf" as quite difficult.
>"Pineapple", "Gladiolus", "Easy Winners", and "Heliotrope
>Bouquet" are somewhere in the middle.
>
>-John
>

Yes John, I'd go along with that. Fig Leaf is the hardest of all
I'd say, particularly the trio. I've always had problems with
The Sycamore too.

-William S.

[russtwarne]

In article <helge.gundersen-...@ppp071.uio.no>,

helge.g...@inl.uio.no (Helge Gundersen [Mr]) wrote:
> I've always thought that The Entertainer is harder than it looks. Has
> anyone else had this experience?

Yes, I agree... particularly since my hands can reach only an octave or
a ninth if I REALLY stretch. It's a piece that takes practice and is
absolutely wonderful once perfected.
--
-Russell Warne
Check out my Scott Joplin page at
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Bayou/9694

[russtwarne]

In article <39809A94...@jremmers.org>,

John H Remmers <rem...@jremmers.org> wrote:
> There's a range of difficulty in Joplin's work. I'd rank
> "The Entertainer", "Maple Leaf", "Peacherine" as on the easier
> side, and "The Cascades" and "Fig Leaf" as quite difficult.
> "Pineapple", "Gladiolus", "Easy Winners", and "Heliotrope
> Bouquet" are somewhere in the middle.
>
> -John

I disagree and offer my own subjective opinion. "Heliotrope Bouquet,"
was, for me, the easiest of the listed Joplin pieces. "Easy Winners,"
"Pine Apple Rag," and "Maple Leaf" were also quiet easy for me. In the
middle I'd place "The Entertainer" and "Peacherine," At the hard end of
the scale are "Fig Leaf," "Gladioulus," and "Cascades" (I never DID get
that trombone-ish trio theme right).

Once again, completely subjective and my only major disagreement is
placing "Heliotrope Bouquet" as a middle piece.

[Greg Shultz]

I'm a lousy piano player by most standards, but I can play The Entertainer
(not the easy version) rather well -- all three "parts". I need to work on
the right hand octaves, though...

"Helge Gundersen [Mr]" <helge.g...@inl.uio.no> wrote in message
news:helge.gundersen-...@ppp071.uio.no...

> I've always thought that The Entertainer is harder than it looks. Has
> anyone else had this experience?
>

> Helge
>
> In article <397f3bc7...@news.nycap.rr.com>, strzepa@i___b.c (Chet

[john...@my-deja.com]

> Do NOT listen to the Joshua Rifkin recordings of the Joplin rags.
> They are too studied and steile.

Amen! I laughed out loud the first time I heard a Rifkin recording, so
incongruous was his coy, over-nuanced interpretation. I agree that
Bolcom hits the "sweet spot" of ragtime with elegant, but vital
playing. His own compositions are fantastic, too. Have you played _The
Garden of Eden_?

[Don Kirkman]

It seems to me I heard somewhere that russtwarne wrote in article
<8ltrp9$pph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:

>In article <39809A94...@jremmers.org>,
> John H Remmers <rem...@jremmers.org> wrote:
>> There's a range of difficulty in Joplin's work. I'd rank
>> "The Entertainer", "Maple Leaf", "Peacherine" as on the easier
>> side, and "The Cascades" and "Fig Leaf" as quite difficult.
>> "Pineapple", "Gladiolus", "Easy Winners", and "Heliotrope
>> Bouquet" are somewhere in the middle.

>I disagree and offer my own subjective opinion. "Heliotrope Bouquet,"

>was, for me, the easiest of the listed Joplin pieces. "Easy Winners,"
>"Pine Apple Rag," and "Maple Leaf" were also quiet easy for me. In the
>middle I'd place "The Entertainer" and "Peacherine," At the hard end of
>the scale are "Fig Leaf," "Gladioulus," and "Cascades" (I never DID get
>that trombone-ish trio theme right).

>Once again, completely subjective and my only major disagreement is
>placing "Heliotrope Bouquet" as a middle piece.

We have an interesting spread of opinions and experiences here. For me
"The Entertainer" is medium, along with "Easy Winners." "Cascades"
comes hard for me, as does "Pineapple Rag," and my real bugaboo is
"Solace." "Peacherine" falls slightly on the easy side, as do
"Searchlight" and "Fig Leaf." I hasten to say I can't play any of them
with all the notes that are on the paper, however much I intend to (and
it's not just because of my short stiff fingers).
--
Don

[Chet Strzepa]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:30:41 -0400, "Greg Shultz"
<greg....@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:

>I rather enjoy Rifkin's recordings. Ironically enough, just for the reasons
>you mention. I use them as a guideline at first, and then add my own
>influence after having heard the "generic interpretation".
>
>Greg

>
>> Do NOT listen to the Joshua Rifkin recordings of the Joplin rags. They
>are too
>> studied and steile.
>

What do you think of Dick Hyman's playing of Joplin? It's the only
recording of Joplin I have right now.

Regards,
Chet

[Chet Strzepa]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 05:58:01 GMT, russtwarne <russt...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <39809A94...@jremmers.org>,
> John H Remmers <rem...@jremmers.org> wrote:
>> There's a range of difficulty in Joplin's work. I'd rank
>> "The Entertainer", "Maple Leaf", "Peacherine" as on the easier
>> side, and "The Cascades" and "Fig Leaf" as quite difficult.
>> "Pineapple", "Gladiolus", "Easy Winners", and "Heliotrope
>> Bouquet" are somewhere in the middle.
>>

>> -John

>
>I disagree and offer my own subjective opinion. "Heliotrope Bouquet,"
>was, for me, the easiest of the listed Joplin pieces. "Easy Winners,"
>"Pine Apple Rag," and "Maple Leaf" were also quiet easy for me. In the
>middle I'd place "The Entertainer" and "Peacherine," At the hard end of
>the scale are "Fig Leaf," "Gladioulus," and "Cascades" (I never DID get
>that trombone-ish trio theme right).
>
>Once again, completely subjective and my only major disagreement is
>placing "Heliotrope Bouquet" as a middle piece.
>

Interesting. For me, Maple Leaf and Gladiolus were probably the
hardest, then maybe Pineapple. I mention Maple Leaf because of the
third part (I think it changes key there if I recall)...where the left
hand is making pretty large strides. The other sections were pretty
easy. I've had trouble with the left hand and right hand octaves in
Gladiolus (my hands are small). For whatever reason, there are parts
of pineapple that I've stuggled to consistently play cleanly.

I should note that none of them have been "easy" for me, but that's
just due to my level of skill.

Regards,
Chet

[mr_j...@my-deja.com]

In article <8ltrp9$pph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
russtwarne <russt...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Heliotrope Bouquet,"
> was, for me, the easiest of the listed Joplin pieces. "Easy Winners,"
> "Pine Apple Rag," and "Maple Leaf" were also quiet easy for me. In the
> middle I'd place "The Entertainer" and "Peacherine," At the hard end
of
> the scale are "Fig Leaf," "Gladioulus," and "Cascades" (I never DID
get
> that trombone-ish trio theme right).
>
> Once again, completely subjective and my only major disagreement is
> placing "Heliotrope Bouquet" as a middle piece.
>

I think Russell and I had an agreement about the 'Cascades' strain C
once before...it's very difficult simply due to the speed required for
those left hand octaves. I'm not so sure why 'Gladiolus' should prove
difficult...I suppose it's the right hand octaves there. But it's a rag
that's worth learning as I think it's one of the best (Joe Lamb's
favourite I understand). I've never really got down to
learning 'Leola', as I confuse it easily with 'Gladiolus' and 'Maple
Leaf'...that's an aspect of difficulty in Joplin not talked about much,
confusing one rag for another, especially with the Maple Leaf
descendants.
The C strains of both 'Pineapple Rag' and 'Wall street Rag' could be
played either staccatto or legato but I think the latter has the best
effect (if only I could remember the name of the guy who recorded
the "Wall Street" that way). I find it incredibly difficult to play
that way with those particular passages. The "crazy chords" at the end
of "Wall Street" are also quite difficult I think. So I suppose "Wall
Street" is one of the ones I find most difficult to play really well.
Ollie

[Johnny]

Have to disagree on Rifkin. Have heard many pianists recorded music
on ragtime, and I think Joshua Rifkin is still the best, although there
are good players like Albright, Hymen, Bolcom. Rifkin's original
recordings in 1970 won and award, and helped spark the ragtime revival
in the 1970's. Rifkin's style has a smooth legago, and the tempos are
well chosen. I think the biggest problem I hear with others is tempos
that are generally too slow, to much stacatto playing, pianists adding
their own (often needless and misjudged) embellishements, and generally
a lack of interpretation of the piece (Dick Wellstood played Joplin'
s upbeated piece "Scott Joplin's New Rag" like a funeral march.)
Ragtime is nowhere near the level of the difficult classics, but it is
very rewarding music to play.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

[Fredisg]

>
>What do you think of Dick Hyman's playing of Joplin? It's the only
>recording of Joplin I have right now.
>

While I have several Dick Hyman recordings, especially of his stride playing, I
do not have any Joplin played by him. But,,,,,,,,,I adore William Bolcom's
playing in any and all styles.
Irwin Goldberg....pianist, conductor.

[Fredisg]

>Amen! I laughed out loud the first time I heard a Rifkin recording, so
>incongruous was his coy, over-nuanced interpretation. I agree that
>Bolcom hits the "sweet spot" of ragtime with elegant, but vital
>playing. His own compositions are fantastic, too. Have you played _The
>Garden of Eden_?
>

I do not know "Garden of Eden", but as I said earlier, I LOVE "Graceful Ghost".
I will check out Garden of Eden immediately.
Irwin Goldberg....pianist, conductor.

[Ron Keeper O'Dell]

"Greg Shultz" <greg....@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:

>I'm a lousy piano player by most standards, but I can play The Entertainer
>(not the easy version) rather well -- all three "parts". I need to work on
>the right hand octaves, though...

The Entertainer has four strains, unless your last name is Hamlisch.

--
Ron O'Dell -- kee...@cruzio.com -- Founder, rec.music.ragtime -- ICQ 2159831
http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files
http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 25 Jan
Sheet music available to five of my rags. See above page for info and MP3s.

[john_v_h]

>I think the biggest problem I hear with others is tempos
>that are generally too slow, to much stacatto playing, pianists
>adding their own (often needless and misjudged)embellishements,
>and generally a lack of interpretation of the piece (Dick
>Wellstood played Joplin's upbeated piece "Scott Joplin's New
>Rag" like a funeral march.)

I agree on the tempo observation-- too many pianists get
intimidated by Joplin's (and others') "Don't play fast!"
inscriptions, failing to put them in the context of exuberant
prestissimos prevalent in Joplin's day.

But what do you mean by "too much staccato playing"? It *is*
dance music, after all. Most pieces suggest legato in passages,
but some suggest levels of staccato all the way through. Then
you complain about lack of interpretation, embellishment and
Wellstead's surprisingly slow performance. Aren't the latter two
examples of interpretation, however disagreeable?

I'd rather hear a bucketful of improvised graces than a single
overwrought phrase trying to wring Chopinesque mania-depression
from a few jaunty little bars of syncopation!
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[Mark Lutton]

Ron Keeper O'Dell wrote:
>
> "Greg Shultz" <greg....@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm a lousy piano player by most standards, but I can play The Entertainer
> >(not the easy version) rather well -- all three "parts". I need to work on
> >the right hand octaves, though...
>
> The Entertainer has four strains, unless your last name is Hamlisch.
>

He said "parts", not "strains". Maybe he meant the bass part, the
melody and the chords.

[Bill Edwards]

Ron Keeper O'Dell wrote:
>
>
> The Entertainer has four strains, unless your last name is Hamlisch.

Oh PLEEAAAASSEEE Let's not go there again. My character was soundly
thrashed by someone with no humor the last time we went after Marvin,
and I don't intend to have to try to justify the position of many
ragtime artists (much less my own) again in order to maintain some
integrity.

Even if it's true that the C strain was too much strain for ol' Marv to
handle, let's just be civil and let Let's let sleeping composers lie.

With all due respect to his talents, RAGards, Bill E.

[Mark Slater]

John wrote:
>I'd rather hear a bucketful of improvised graces than a single
>overwrought phrase trying to wring Chopinesque mania-depression
>from a few jaunty little bars of syncopation!

I enjoy playing these pieces immensely. The admonitions about not playing too
fast aside, the rags need to swing. I get such a kick out of the pedalling.
Pedal every other beat, stomp your heel on the floor. It must drive the
downstairs neighbors crazy, but, what the hey. These are fun pieces to play.
The syncopations are challenging enough to make it interesting. Chopin and
Joplin are galaxies apart. Just have fun playing them! I know I do.

Mark Slater

Non occidete cantorem; ut optimum faciat.
"Pray ye do not shoot the Harpsichordist;
He doeth the best He can."

[LstPuritan]

>Mark Slater
>
>Non occidete cantorem; ut optimum faciat.
>"Pray ye do not shoot the Harpsichordist;
> He doeth the best He can."

You sure? Final answer?

[john_v_h]

See my post of August 4 for more comments on the interpretation
of ragtime. I believe ragtime embodies an exuberance that should
never be eclipsed by "sensitivity." I put the word in quotes
because I value sensitivity as an artistic concept, but in this
context I refer to the fussy, ideosyncratic, cloying impression
left when phrasing, rubato, accent and voicing draw more
attention to the interpretive heroism of the performer than to
the music itself.

Judging from the inferiority complex so painfully displayed in
his preface to "School of Ragtime," I'm not sure I care how
Joplin played the rags himself. I only know that they possess a
vitality that cannot be improved by overburdening them with the
values of European "seriousness."

[Chet Strzepa]

>I think Russell and I had an agreement about the 'Cascades' strain C
>once before...it's very difficult simply due to the speed required for
>those left hand octaves. I'm not so sure why 'Gladiolus' should prove
>difficult...I suppose it's the right hand octaves there. But it's a rag
>that's worth learning as I think it's one of the best (Joe Lamb's
>favourite I understand). I've never really got down to
>learning 'Leola', as I confuse it easily with 'Gladiolus' and 'Maple
>Leaf'...that's an aspect of difficulty in Joplin not talked about much,
>confusing one rag for another, especially with the Maple Leaf
>descendants.
>The C strains of both 'Pineapple Rag' and 'Wall street Rag' could be
>played either staccatto or legato but I think the latter has the best
>effect (if only I could remember the name of the guy who recorded

Gladiolus has been tough for me because of the octaves in both left
and right hands (I can barely reach a ninth). However, since I wrote
the original post, I'm now able to play Gladiolus pretty well (I mean
"pretty well" for me which really means that I can get through it MOST
of the time without any wrong notes). Practicing Chopin prelude #21
helped me improve my left hand octaves quite a bit.

I started to tinker with Pineapple again. I find the 3rd and 4th
strains of Pineapple tough to play cleanly...I have more trouble
getting the right hand part clean. Maybe I'm choosing fingerings
poorly.

Regards,
Chet

[Joel Richman]

I noticed you all are interested in Joplin. Please take a couple
minutes to check out markreichle.com There are mp3's from his new
Joplin recording (Complete Piano Works Vol. 1).

Also feel free to cc him on some of your discussions
(ma...@markreichle.com). He's a new artist on my label and has many
opinions about how the music should be performed. I'm trying to get him
to participate in these discussions!!!

Thanks

Joel Richman
President, R and R Records
rnrre...@aol.com
eatd...@eatdrums.com

[Dick and Janet Moulding]

There is no easy answer to your hard question. Joplin's rags are
challenging because all have parts that fall so easily and naturally to
hand that you immediately intuit that your were born to play this
music. Most also have parts that will throw you right off your piano
stool if you don't slow down. These passages require careful attention
to fingering and lots of slow, precise practice before they start to
come together.
In short, the easy ones are the ones you have studied and
practiced the most. The hard ones are The Cascades and Euphonic Sounds.

Dick Moulding

[cham...@gmail.com]

I agree with that