Kawai vs. Yamaha vs. Boston
Gary Coombs
Rudy Vandenbelt wrote in message <34A711A1...@magi.com>...
>We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright piano to a
>small (5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much shopping
>around and much more reading we are quite confused as to the relative
>merits or pitfalls of one brand to the next.
>
>Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands mentioned
>above... does anyone have a suggestion as to which would be the most
>appropriate for non-concert pianists,... best sound? trouble free
>ownership? and a best value purchase? ( Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM
>Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
>
>As a brief aside does anyone have any good experience with the Korean
>Young Chang pianos... tell me if I should stay clear please!
>
>We look forward to hearing from you!
>
You can't go wrong with any of the above. In the past, Young Chang, being
made in Korea, hadn't been held in as high regard. I understand that is
changing.
Rudy Vandenbelt
We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright piano to a
small (5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much shopping
around and much more reading we are quite confused as to the relative
merits or pitfalls of one brand to the next.
Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands mentioned
above... does anyone have a suggestion as to which would be the most
appropriate for non-concert pianists,... best sound? trouble free
ownership? and a best value purchase? ( Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM
Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
As a brief aside does anyone have any good experience with the Korean
Young Chang pianos... tell me if I should stay clear please!
We look forward to hearing from you!
Rudy Vandenbelt
Ottawa, Canada.
head...@magi.com
Frank Weston
Rudy Vandenbelt <head...@magi.com> wrote in article
<34A711A1...@magi.com>...
> We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright piano to a
> small (5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much shopping
> around and much more reading we are quite confused as to the relative
> merits or pitfalls of one brand to the next.
>
> Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands mentioned
> above... does anyone have a suggestion as to which would be the most
> appropriate for non-concert pianists,... best sound? trouble free
> ownership? and a best value purchase? ( Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM
> Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
>
Rudy,
All the brands you note above are fine pianos; but, do yourself and your
family a favor. Look at grand pianos in the 5' 8" to 6' 4" range. Grands
of the size you are considering are little more than pretty furniture.
You may also want to consider the new Mason & Hamlins, Petrof, and rebuilt
vintage pianos.
Frank Weston
pTooner
Rudy Vandenbelt wrote:
> We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright piano to a
>
> small (5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much shopping
> around and much more reading we are quite confused as to the relative
> merits or pitfalls of one brand to the next.
>
> Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands mentioned
> above... does anyone have a suggestion as to which would be the most
> appropriate for non-concert pianists,... best sound? trouble free
> ownership? and a best value purchase? ( Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM
> Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
>
> As a brief aside does anyone have any good experience with the Korean
> Young Chang pianos... tell me if I should stay clear please!
>
> We look forward to hearing from you!
>
> Rudy Vandenbelt
> Ottawa, Canada.
> head...@magi.com
Firstly, if you go as small as you indicate, I fear you will be
disappointed. Grands this small will not have the power or fullnes of a
good old upright. This is made even worse by the fact that you are
looking at very bright pianos. They will sound much brighter at home
than they do in a show room in my experience. I have two
suggestions. Firstly, look at larger pianos, and secondly look at the
Young Chang. In my experience they give more value for money than the
three admittedly well built brands that you mention. I suspect you
might get a 6 foot Young Chang for no more than you'd pay for the tiny
instruments you mention. I further believe you would be much happier
with the sound of a 6 foot korean piano than with that of a just over 5
foot japanese piano. Don't take my word for it - listen to both.
Gerry
--
邢 唷��
DZappa
>We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright >piano to a small
(5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much >shopping around and much
more reading we are quite confused >as to the relative merits or pitfalls of
one brand to the next.
>
You're getting confused and are coming to US??!!
>Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands >mentioned above...
does anyone have a suggestion as to which >would be the most appropriate for
non-concert pianists,... best >sound? trouble free ownership? and a best value
purchase? >(Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
>
The Kawai RX, Yamaha C and Boston all can be considered high grade consumer
pianos. They *pretend* to be Conservatory grade pianos, but they fall just a
tad short (mostly due to size) Certainly each one would give you years of
trouble free service. The issue of size is an important one, and it relates
directly to price. Frank mentions that a 5'8" - 6' piano would be more
appropriate and also mentions "off" brands such as Petrof or good rebuilds as
alternatives. Sound advice (as usual). If the issue of SPACE is primary -
then your choices mentioned are excellent ones. If PRICE is a greater
consideration then I would at least LOOK at the alternatives. But don't let
the "bigger is better" argument dissuade you from purchasing a piano you like.
>As a brief aside does anyone have any good experience with the >Korean Young
Chang pianos... tell me if I should stay clear >please!
>
Much better pianos than they were 10 years ago. The 6' mentioned in another
post as an alternative is certainly worth a look, however, YC is NOT even close
to the level of Boston, Yamaha C and Kawai RX - yet. It compares well when
looking at the Yamaha GP series or Kawai GM series, but not the upper line
stuff.
In the end, let your ears, fingers, heart and wallet make the call - and give
each one equal weight.
Happy Hunting!
Dave
Glenn Grafton
As far as the individual pianos I like the Yamaha the best, but I'm not
totally unbiased, since I also sell them. Even if I didn't it would be my
first choice. Of the three pianos mentioned Yamaha is used in more
recording studios than any of them and has an excellent reputation among
piano technicians. The Yamaha's outsell both Boston and Kawai by a wide
wide margin in units purchased.
One piece of advice about the three pianos that you mentioned:
The Boston pianos, in some areas of the country, often carry a
significantly higher dealer mark up for a similar dealer cost. A Boston
and Yamaha C1 cost the dealer almost exactly the same, but often times the
Boston will sell for thousands more since the Steinway dealer does not
have to be price competitive, since there usually is not a neighboring
dealer. This price premium has nothing to do with the dealer cost but in
higher dealer mark-up made possible by a lack of competition from other
Boston dealers.
The Ancott Product Directory lists the following models and prices for
these brands. The prices below are average or suggested retail prices. The
guide is significant in that it uses the same exact dealer mark up from
wholesale for all the brands of pianos and helps give a bench mark for
what value you are receiving by comparing the price you are able to find
with the price from the Ancott Directory. Of note is the fact that you are
comparing the Boston 5'1" GP-156 to the Yamaha C1. You should really
compare the Boston GP-163 to the C1 since they are closer in size and the
cost to the dealer is almost the same.
Yamaha C1 5'3" $17,090
Boston GP-163 5'3" $17,180
Boston GP-156 5'1" $13,980
Kawai RX-1 5'5" $16,990
The above prices are significantly higher than what we sell a Yamaha C1
for, but again it is a benchmark that you can work the percentages to see
how you are doing with the 3 respective brands. Dealers that want to
justify a higher mark up will howl at the mention of the above information
and try to discredit it, but it is valid and accurate.
The Boston Piano is made in the Kawai factory and shares many of the same
major structural components, with some changes to differentiate it from
the Kawais (no plastic action parts for example). I recently installed a
PianoDisk unit on a Boston grand that was only a few years old. On
inspection it had some irregularities that we have not seen in Yamaha
grands--slight delamination between the inner and outer rim, some pulling
away of the veneer of the lyre, etc., which confirmed my suspicions that
they are not at all of the same calibre of a Steinway for long term life.
All in all though it had a nice sound and was well made.
The Korean made Young Chang would be a notch below all three of the above.
Feed back from piano technicians of their track record in hard
institutional use such as colleges and schools has shown that they need
more frequent regulation and tuning.
If I can be of further help, feel free to give me a ring or e-mail.
In article <34A711A1...@magi.com>, head...@magi.com wrote:
> We are upgrading our current familial hand me down upright piano to a
> small (5'-1" to 5'-3") 'baby' grand style type. After much shopping
> around and much more reading we are quite confused as to the relative
> merits or pitfalls of one brand to the next.
>
> Currently we have narrowed the field to the three brands mentioned
> above... does anyone have a suggestion as to which would be the most
> appropriate for non-concert pianists,... best sound? trouble free
> ownership? and a best value purchase? ( Kawai RX Series, Kawai GM
> Series, Boston GP156, Yamaha C1)
>
> As a brief aside does anyone have any good experience with the Korean
> Young Chang pianos... tell me if I should stay clear please!
>
> We look forward to hearing from you!
>
> Rudy Vandenbelt
> Ottawa, Canada.
> head...@magi.com
--
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co. Inc.
Souderton PA
(Philadelphia-Allentown area)
(800)272-5980
Gary Coombs
Glenn Grafton wrote in message ...
>
> <snip>
>
>The Boston Piano is made in the Kawai factory and shares many of the same
>major structural components, with some changes to differentiate it from
>the Kawais (no plastic action parts for example).
>
>
Perhaps you weren't around when rmmp had some long and informative threads
about ABS Styran and its use in action parts. Specifically in Jacks, which
often wear out and break when made of more fragile wood instead of a more
durable product like ABS. You might contact the engineers at NASA who make
mission critical moving parts from ABS Styran and suggest they make them out
of wood instead. ;-)
There always seem to be piano salesmen who love to use the word "plastic"
while rolling their eyes and looking at the ceiling. And we wonder why
piano salesmen get a bad reputation...
DeeZappa
>One piece of advice about the three pianos that you mentioned:
>The Boston pianos, in some areas of the country, often carry a
>significantly higher dealer mark up for a similar dealer cost. A >Boston and
Yamaha C1 cost the dealer almost exactly the same, >but often times theBoston
will sell for thousands more since the >Steinway dealer does no thave to be
price competitive, since >there usually is not a neighboring dealer.
Glenn:
As usual I agree and disagree with you. You post mentions the Ancott Directory
and dealer costs, etc.. Both these things are guides but not the bottom line.
Less competition is only one of the reasons Boston sells for more, but there
are other factors as well. Some of the price driven Yamaha dealers sell cheap
but don't offer the prep and services a good dealer offers. There is a price
associated with that. Supply and demand also comes into play - as you stated
there are simply more Yamahas to go around. Have you noticed as Yamaha has
been under a inventory crunch many dealers are holding the line on their prices
until they can guaratee they can have a stock replacement for the piano they
sell?
I feel that creating doubt about how much someone pays for a particular piano
is doing them a disservice. People should buy the piano they like for the
money they are willing to spend. After selling Yamaha for 10 years (and still
do) I always figured I could live with the tone to get the touch and the
quality. Boston has the touch AND tone I like and would my choice of pianos
should I buy one today. And I know I'd pay more for the Boston.
>This price premium has nothing to do with the dealer cost but in
>higher dealer mark-up made possible by a lack of competition >from other
Boston dealers.
See the above explination, and who cares about dealer cost? And so what if
Ancott uses the EXACT dealer mark-up for every piano. The reality is that
dealers mark pianos up differently. It's a benchmark based on a flawed idea.
So the Ancott directory is "significantly higher" than your Yamaha prices. Are
you insinuating that you might be shooting for a deal here?
>Dealers that want to justify a higher mark up will howl at the >mention of the
above information
>and try to discredit it, but it is valid and accurate.
Howwwwllllll - it's accurate, but by no means is it "valid". The 3 or 4
dealers I know that use the Ancott directory as a standard course of selling
are price driven and trying to cover up their lack of piano prep, after sale
service and product quality with a low price.
> On inspection it had some irregularities that we have not seen in >Yamaha
grands--slight delamination between the inner and outer >rim, some pulling away
of the veneer of the lyre, etc., which >confirmed my suspicions that they are
not at all of the same calibre >of a Steinway for long term life.
And you've NEVER seen a Yammie with some problems? I have. And if they were
the same calibre of Steinway, they'd say "Steinway" on the fallboard.
>All in all though it had a nice sound and was well made.
So why all the negative feedback?
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Dave
Please respond via e-mail to my regular account "Dza...@aol.com"
Death to Spammers!
Tom Shaw
Mike DeZelar wrote:
>
> "Gary Coombs" <Gary....@mindspring.com> wrote:
> If you're interested in reading about this information from the source
> (Kawai), you can go to http://www.kawaius.com/touch5.htm to get their
> take on the subject.
>
>I was interested and went to the Kawaii site suggested. I found that they claim that extruded aluminum, which they use for the action rail, will not warp, expand or contract. I am not sure about the extrusions warping but aluminum or other metal castings will certainly warp. I am sure about the expansion and contraction and that is that aluminum will expand and contract in response to temperature.
TS
Glenn Grafton
In article <19980104161...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
deez...@aol.com (DeeZappa) wrote:
> >One piece of advice about the three pianos that you mentioned:
> >The Boston pianos, in some areas of the country, often carry a
> >significantly higher dealer mark up for a similar dealer cost. A >Boston and
> Yamaha C1 cost the dealer almost exactly the same, >but often times theBoston
> will sell for thousands more since the >Steinway dealer does no thave to be
> price competitive, since >there usually is not a neighboring dealer.
>
> Glenn:
> As usual I agree and disagree with you. You post mentions the Ancott
Directory
> and dealer costs, etc.. Both these things are guides but not the bottom line.
> Less competition is only one of the reasons Boston sells for more, but there
> are other factors as well. Some of the price driven Yamaha dealers sell cheap
> but don't offer the prep and services a good dealer offers.
snip
Yes dealer prep does come into play as far as how much the piano sells
for. However, in practice there are dealers such as us who do perform
extensive dealer prep on the grands before they go out, do our own
delivieries, and have a shop where we do major re-building and
re-finishing to back it up.
The difference in our market area is that the Boston dealer charges
thousands more (about $4000 more for a 5'4" Boston) for the same size and
wholesale cost for a Boston grand and does no more dealer prep than we do.
That is the issue.
>
> I feel that creating doubt about how much someone pays for a particular piano
> is doing them a disservice. People should buy the piano they like for the
> money they are willing to spend.
snip
No, it's giving them information so they can make an informed decision,
which is one of the main points for people referring to this newsgroup.
> >This price premium has nothing to do with the dealer cost but in
> >higher dealer mark-up made possible by a lack of competition >from other
> Boston dealers.
>
> See the above explination, and who cares about dealer cost? And so what if
> Ancott uses the EXACT dealer mark-up for every piano. The reality is that
> dealers mark pianos up differently.
snip
The point here is that by referring to the prices from the Ancott
directory, a person can see how much of a premium they are paying for a
respective brand and model. For example, I have a customer who was quoted
$17,000 for a 5'4" Boston GP-163, which was quite a bit higher than the C1
that we were talking to him about, in fact he could buy a 5'8" Yamaha C2
for still less than the Boston 5'4". Since the Ancott directory reflects
the same mark up from wholesale a person can use it as a benchmark to see
how value they are getting. Again the prices on the 3 brands are:
Yamaha C1 5'3" $17,090
Boston GP-163 5'4" $17,180
Boston GP-156 5'1" $13,980
Kawai RX-1 5'5" $16,990
> you insinuating that you might be shooting for a deal here?
No, I'm not. The original poster is from Canada, and we are not really
interested in selling outside our normal trading area - the New Jersey,
Philadelphia, and Allentown area.
>
> >Dealers that want to justify a higher mark up will howl at the >mention
of the
> above information
> >and try to discredit it, but it is valid and accurate.
>
> Howwwwllllll - it's accurate, but by no means is it "valid".
snip
See what I mean. But it is valid in that it does give a person an accurate
idea of what the 3 respective brands would sell for at the same mark up.
If a person can buy a Kawai or Yamaha piano for $13,000-14,500 they may
want to give some thought to if they want to pay the added thousands for
the Boston. They may want to, but they would be going into it with their
eyes open. They should also take some time looking into the construction
materials of the respective pianos. The Yamaha grands actually use some
better construction materials than the Boston, but this is something the
individual would have to evaluate after looking at the different brands.
> >All in all though it had a nice sound and was well made.
>
> So why all the negative feedback?
Because many people are unaware that the Boston piano is made in the
Kawaii factory and are unaware of the fact that the added thousands of
dollars they may pay (depending on the market area) is only paying for
added dealer gross profit, not for the piano or dealer prep.
Again, as I said earlier, they are all fine pianos and most people would
be pleased with any of them.
DeeZappa
>The difference in our market area is that the Boston dealer >charges thousands
more (about $4000 more for a 5'4" Boston) for >the same size and wholesale cost
for a Boston grand and does no >more dealer prep than we do.
>
Glenn:
So the Boston dealer charges thousands more and doens't do any more prep than
you. Prep was only one issue that I brought up for the profit discrepency....
don't forget supply vs. demand, the fact that you have probably had to adjust
your pricing to be competitive with your friendly local Yamaha dealers who
DON'T do the prep you guys do and are willing to blow a C1 into your territory
for 10K, the premium of being a piano associated with Steinway, the fact that
Boston pianos, like it or not, are highly competitive pianos.
>it's giving them information so they can make an informed >decision
Ok, it's information. But the context you have put it in makes the Boston seem
like quite a gyp considering you can buy a Yamaha or Kawai for thousands less.
Boston is a damn good piano for the dough... as are Yamaha and Kawai.
>The point here is that by referring to the prices from the Ancott
>directory, a person can see how much of a premium they are >paying for a
respective brand and model.
I think this has been hashed over in the past, but I'll say it again. Is piano
mark-up an issue? I buy Rockport shoes (lots of them). They cost a lot more
than Dexters, but both pairs of Dexters I owned hurt my feet so I don't buy
them. Do I pay for shoes that say "rockport" and are made in Malaysia along
with every other shoe in the shop? yep. Do I care? no. The Rocks fit me,
pure and simple. And if the shoe salesman started (pardon the pun) "dogging"
the Rocks on markup, I'd find another shop. "Paging Al Bundy..."
>Since the Ancott directory reflects
>the same mark up from wholesale a person can use it as a >benchmark to see how
value *snip* ... it is valid in that it does >give a person an accurate idea
of what the 3 respective brands >would sell for at the same mark up.
Value is how the consumer perceives the price relative to the product. Ancott
can't even begin to assign value to a piano, nor can we - that is purely the
consumers choice.
(sorry about this HOWWWWWLLLLLL........) The Ancott directory shows what
pianos would sell for if EVERY piano was marked up at the same rate, but the
REALITY of the market is they aren't by a long shot. Do you think Honda marks
Acura up more because it is a premium, lower production auto? You bet your
sweet bippy they do. Same with pianos - mark the C series up a bit more than
the GP/GH? If you don't you should, the former is meant to sell at a more
aggresive price point. (I can't believe I'm going to say this) ...if you want
more realistic price info, check out the 1997-98 Fine Supplement. At least he
takes market conditions, prodution numbers and reality-based dollar figures
into account. :::checking for the impending bolt of lightning:::::: BTW -
whoever told me that was available thank you - I HAVE to keep more abreast of
that stuff......
Why shouldn't Boston dealers get a little more. It's worth it to many people.
Should consumers be aware of the premium? Of course, don't think they aren't
without having it crammed down their throat. Making an issue of it as a means
of presenting your product as better only makes the case for your piano weaker.
Markup is irrelevent to the consumer who buys premium products, or the soul
who (God forbid) LIKES THE PIANO!
How about the guy who wears a Tommy "Pull my finger" jacket, jumps back in his
Lexus, turns on the Blapunkt 10 disc and goes back to get that Boston piano,
just because you told him it was marked up too much? Trust me - they are out
there. Sell the strengths of your product and quit worrying about how much
piano X is marked up.
> many people are unaware that the Boston piano is made in the
>Kawaii factory and are unaware of the fact that the added >thousands of
dollars they may pay (depending on the market >area) is only paying for added
dealer gross profit, not for the >piano or dealer prep.
I can't imagine any consumer walking into a Yamaha or Kawai dealer and not
being told that Boston is an "OEM" Kawai. I think that the above points state
my case for why consumers pay more for the Boston.
>The Yamaha grands actually use some
>better construction materials than the Boston
Such as? As a dealer for both I have to say that when spec'd out side-by-side
until you get to the C3 there ain't a Yamaha that specs out like a Boston.
They use good materials. I think Kawai has even brought the material quality
of their piano up a notch since the inception of the production contract.
I guess we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this issue. Chalk it up
with the Don/Dave diatribe on ABS about a year ago.
Cheers and go Steelers - beat those a***ole Broncos who took my Chiefs out of
the Bowl!
Tom Shaw
Mike DeZelar wrote:
>
> Tom Shaw <a000...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >I was interested and went to the Kawaii site suggested. I found that
> >they claim that extruded aluminum, which they use for the action rail,
> >will not warp, expand or contract. I am not sure about the extrusions
> >warping but aluminum or other metal castings will certainly warp. I
> >am sure about the expansion and contraction and that is that aluminum
> >will expand and contract in response to temperature.
>
> and contraction due to humidity; something that I believe doesn't
> affect aluminum.
>
> Yes, aluminum expands, contracts and can warp, but how much so
> compared to wood? Is this really that much of an issue? Do any piano
> manufacturers use wood action rails anymore?
>
>
We were not on the same page. On the next page, under a heading of
aluminum action rails, they state quote It will not warp, crack, or
expand under any climate conditions. unquote.
This is simply not true. As to whether anybody uses wood for action
rails anymore, or whether wood changes dimensions more or less than
aluminum, is irrelvant. I was simply pointing out an extravagant
statement in the specifications section of the Kawaii site.
As far as that goes the values of linear and volumetric temperature
coefficients of expansion for aluminum are among the highest among
common substances.
Finally apparently Kawaii feels it is quote much unquote of an issue
since they feature the aluminum action rail very prominantly in two
places on the Website.
TS
Rudy Vandenbelt
Guys:
Come on... coefficients of expansion of aluminum wrt action rails is only
relavent if you decide to keep your new Grand in wildly variable temperature
conditions! ( I think that Kawai rightly assumes that you won't keep it in
your unheated garage in Minnesota.)... So the only real relavent point is how
aluminum is affected by variations in humidity ( to which any wood is highly
succeptible) right?
My partner is a "marketing guy"... and having experienced how he presents
products taht we develop, I do feel that we must give them a little leeway in
their sales pitch.... as long as they do not try to deceive! Fundamentally,
aluminum action rails, under normal use and conditions, are considerably
better than wood... Said, done, delivered, no lies!
Thanks all for your comments on this every growing string of conversation...
I think that we've decided on a Kawai RX 5'3"... we like the tone, we like
the price, we like the quality, and we cannot justify in room or in cost a
larger grand (sorry to you all who don't like furniture baby's!)
All the best,
Rudy Vandenbelt (P.Eng)
Ottawa, Canada
( The origional poster)
DeeZappa
> Do any piano
>manufacturers use wood action rails anymore?
>
>
Only one I know of is Baldwin. They really play it up too.
Tom Shaw
Rudy Vandenbelt wrote:
>
> Guys:
> Come on... coefficients of expansion of aluminum wrt action rails is only
> relavent if you decide to keep your new Grand in wildly variable temperature
> conditions! ( I think that Kawai rightly assumes that you won't keep it in
> your unheated garage in Minnesota.)
>
... So the only real relavent point is how
> aluminum is affected by variations in humidity ( to which any wood is highly
> succeptible) right?
>
> products taht we develop, I do feel that we must give them a little leeway in
> their sales pitch.... as long as they do not try to deceive! >
I consider the statement I quoted from the Kawaii Website deception
typical of the mewlings of your friends the "marketing guys". It is a
flat out lie.
TS
Tom Shaw
> >typical of the mewlings of your friends the "marketing guys". It is a
> >flat out lie.
> >TS
>
> truth-spin and white-lie made by marketing types. Not that I don't
> agree with you on being truthful. They really should be clear in
> pointing out the *practical* advantages of aluminum vs. wood in piano
> action rails (less warping and expansion/contraction due to humidity).
> Gross generalizations are almost never valid.
>
> By the way, it is spelled Kawai. Kawaii is an island in the state of
> Hawaii.
>
Thank you for the spelling correction.
I would like to point out that the information I was questioning is in a
section called "specifications" and I do not expect to find spin in
specifications. I wouldn't dream of calling anybody a liar as long as
all he was doing was bsing the public...what are salesmen for? I do
draw the line when somebody tells me to look at the "specifications" of
a product and find that the sales department has been messing around
therein. It is purely an old fashioned prejudice on my part to expect
specifications to be factual as opposed to advertising copy. But that
is my right no matter how forgiving of sales excesses the baby boomers
and thirty somethings are who abound these days.
TS
Rick Simmons
DeeZappa wrote:
> (I can't believe I'm going to say this) ...if you want
> more realistic price info, check out the 1997-98 Fine Supplement. At least he
> takes market conditions, prodution numbers and reality-based dollar figures
> into account. :::checking for the impending bolt of lightning::::::
What do you mean by "more realistic"? Closer to standard markup? We're still left
with the actual negotiation on selling price, huh? All the supply/demand and other
factors are affecting that as well. That's what makes it so hard.
I know, I know, we gotta be willing to pay for the one we really want. But we also
want to feel like it was a fair deal fair -- both ways. It's hard to judge. And
being basically a lousy negotiator doesn't help.
> BTW -
> whoever told me that was available thank you - I HAVE to keep more abreast of
> that stuff......
That would be me. De nada.
Rick
Aegrotat1
>I consider the statement I quoted from the Kawaii Website deception
>typical of the mewlings of your friends the "marketing guys". It is a
>flat out lie.
Good God! Lighten up.
RLD
Tom Shaw
TS
Glenn Grafton
The major advantage of an aluminum action rail is that the screws tend to
stay tighter than with wooden action rails.
I have observed in many many instances with used pianos that I have worked
on that I have to pull the action out and snug up the screws that hold the
action parts to the rail. The loose screws cause clicking and some shoddy
response. This is due to the wooden rails shrinking from the time the
parts were installed. This procedure is hardly ever needed on pianos with
with metal action rails, unless the piano was really dried out and then
the screws are usually loose because the wooden flanges have shrunken.
BTW, Yamaha does not just use aluminum for their action rails, it is a
magnesium/aluminum alloy which is considerably harder than regular
aluminum.
I was under the impression for years that Yamaha was the inovator of this
type of rail until I worked on a Chickering console piano (a fairly high
end piano in it's day) which had a metal action rail.
In article <34B262BB...@magi.com>, head...@magi.com wrote:
> Guys:
> Come on... coefficients of expansion of aluminum wrt action rails is only
> relavent if you decide to keep your new Grand in wildly variable temperature
> conditions! ( I think that Kawai rightly assumes that you won't keep it in
> your unheated garage in Minnesota.)... So the only real relavent point is how
> aluminum is affected by variations in humidity ( to which any wood is highly
> succeptible) right?
>
snip
>
> > Mike DeZelar wrote:
> > >
> > > Tom Shaw <a000...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > > >I was interested and went to the Kawaii site suggested. I found that
> > > >they claim that extruded aluminum, which they use for the action rail,
> > > >will not warp, expand or contract. I am not sure about the extrusions
> > > >warping but aluminum or other metal castings will certainly warp. I
> > > >am sure about the expansion and contraction and that is that aluminum
> > > >will expand and contract in response to temperature.
> > >
> > > If we're reading the same web page, I believe they refer to expansion
> > > and contraction due to humidity; something that I believe doesn't
> > > affect aluminum.
> > >
> > > Yes, aluminum expands, contracts and can warp, but how much so
> > > compared to wood? Is this really that much of an issue? Do any piano
> > > manufacturers use wood action rails anymore?
snip
Tom Shaw
Glenn Grafton wrote:
>
> The major advantage of an aluminum action rail is that the screws tend to
> stay tighter than with wooden action rails.
>
> I have observed in many many instances with used pianos that I have worked
> on that I have to pull the action out and snug up the screws that hold the
> action parts to the rail. The loose screws cause clicking and some shoddy
> response. This is due to the wooden rails shrinking from the time the
> parts were installed. This procedure is hardly ever needed on pianos with
> with metal action rails, unless the piano was really dried out and then
> the screws are usually loose because the wooden flanges have shrunken.
>
> BTW, Yamaha does not just use aluminum for their action rails, it is a
> magnesium/aluminum alloy which is considerably harder than regular
> aluminum.
>
> I was under the impression for years that Yamaha was the inovator of this
> type of rail until I worked on a Chickering console piano (a fairly high
> end piano in it's day) which had a metal action rail.
>
pianos...which was never questioned. Now if we could just get Kawai to
stop saying that aluminum will not warp, crack, or expand under any
climate conditions I would be happy. That statement is so patently
false that I am surprised that anybody would stoop to defend its use in
any context.
TS
, even in this ng which .
Ragtimbill
>The major advantage of an aluminum action rail is that the screws tend to
>stay tighter than with wooden action rails.
>
>I have observed in many many instances with used pianos that I have worked
>on that I have to pull the action out and snug up the screws that hold the
>action parts to the rail. The loose screws cause clicking and some shoddy
>response. This is due to the wooden rails shrinking from the time the
>parts were installed. This procedure is hardly ever needed on pianos with
>with metal action rails, unless the piano was really dried out and then
>the screws are usually loose because the wooden flanges have shrunken.
>
>
Really?!! My experience has been just the opposite. I have had to snug up a
higher percentage of screws in aluminum action rails than in wooden. I always
supposed it was because of expansion: the wood has more "give" than the metal,
and accepts the expansion/contraction better because the other has its joining
of dissimilar metals with different coefficients of thermal expansion.
. . . just my $.02.
(Heat shields up . . . Incoming!)
Bill Rowland
Broken Arrow, OK
Ragti...@aol.com
Tom Shaw
TS
pTooner
Ragtimbill wrote:
> . . . just my $.02.
>
> (Heat shields up . . . Incoming!)
>
> Bill Rowland
> Broken Arrow, OK
> Ragti...@aol.com
Hi Bill, my experience parallels yours. When I have had to tighten a lot of screws
it has generally been due to shrinkage of flanges. This is particularly prevalent
on fairly recent vintage Kawai uprights in institutional settings.
I guess that makes $.04. ;-)
Gerry
--
邢 唷��
DeeZappa
In article <gleng-07019...@max2-15.phl.fast.net>, gl...@fast.net (Glenn
Grafton) writes:
>The major advantage of an aluminum action rail is that the screws tend
>to stay tighter than with wooden action rails.
I am under the impression that screws hold tighter to wood than aluminum. I
agree that with the changes of climate wood flanges will tend to losen from
wood rails, but that's the material's fault - not the screw.
Steinway has used a bronze rail with a wooden dowel for decades to take
advatage of both the screw-holding capability of wood and the stability of
metal. Even Samick has a hardwood dowel under their aluminum rail (in grands
at least).
-Chen,J.L.
>...
>The point here is that by referring to the prices from the Ancott
>directory, a person can see how much of a premium they are paying for a
>$17,000 for a 5'4" Boston GP-163, which was quite a bit higher than the C1
>that we were talking to him about, in fact he could buy a 5'8" Yamaha C2
>the same mark up from wholesale a person can use it as a benchmark to see
>
>Yamaha C1 5'3" $17,090
>Boston GP-163 5'4" $17,180
>Boston GP-156 5'1" $13,980
>Kawai RX-1 5'5" $16,990
The above argument is based on an assumption that every make/model
should have about the same percentage of markup. It totally ignored
in a complete market analysis (the 4'Ps), pricing is only one of
the 4 major factors. And the wholesale price is again one element of the
pricing strategy. I have no intention to go into the fundamentals of
marketing, I just want to point out that
between two products, say product A and B, buying a product with a
smaller markup does not guarantee you get more value for your money.
Otherwise manufactures/distributors
can just simply boost up the wholesale/retail price and then give consumers
huge discount thus create illusive value for their money.
Julian