Can anyone involved in retail confirm this "Bergmann" rumour?

[Rick Clark]

OK, here's what my source says: "Bergmann" pianos are inferior
rebadged Young Changs. My source claims that the U.S. Trade Commision
(or somesuch name of branch of U.S. government) reported that Young
Chang has manufacturing facilities in China, and that the products
thus churned out have been so inferior that dealers have been
returning them in droves. These poor pianos were then rebadged as
"Bergmann" and sent out again for sale.

Does anyone have facts on this and can confirm or deny the reality of
these claims?

Thanks,

Rick Clark

[Buck]

Hi Rick,
I don't knpw about the rumor of dealers returning Young Chang pianos that
are built in China, but they should. The BERGMAN name is now being used on
all Young Changs built in their Tiajin Factory. They also still build Y.C
brand there and you can always tell by the serial number. All Young Chang
pianos whether under the Y.C. name or Bergman or what ever name they want to
use have a "T" prefix in front of the ser # to show it was built in Tiajin
in China. Hope this helps.
Frank
Classic piano Centre
Canada
Rick Clark <Ple...@LobotomizeMe.com> wrote in message
news:39e4e1c6...@news.mindspring.com...

[jaso...@my-deja.com]

Bergmann Pianos are NOT rebadged dealer returns. (By the way, thank
you for being clear in your post that you were ASKING not accusing).

The Bergmann Pianos are made in a relatively new factory, built by
Young Chang from scratch, and as a mirror image of their factory in
Inchon, North Korea. Young Chang decided to market these instruments
under the Bergmann label to distinguise them from their Inchon
production. The pianos are, of course, labeled as Made in China. While
they are not a premium piano by any means, compared to other pianos in
a similar price range they are quite reasonable.

Like Baldwin, with their Chickering and Wurlitzer labels, and Steinway
with Boston and Essex(coming 2/01), etc., Young Chang uses different
brand names for their different quality lines.

The dealer reception of these pianos has been excellent. The dealers
have NOT been "returning them in droves".

E-mail for more information and please visit youngchang.com for more
information on Bergmann or any other Young Chang product.

In article <39e4e1c6...@news.mindspring.com>,

Ple...@LobotomizeMe.com wrote:
> OK, here's what my source says: "Bergmann" pianos are inferior
> rebadged Young Changs. My source claims that the U.S. Trade Commision
> (or somesuch name of branch of U.S. government) reported that Young
> Chang has manufacturing facilities in China, and that the products
> thus churned out have been so inferior that dealers have been
> returning them in droves. These poor pianos were then rebadged as
> "Bergmann" and sent out again for sale.
>
> Does anyone have facts on this and can confirm or deny the reality of
> these claims?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick Clark
>

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Rick Clark]

jaso...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Bergmann Pianos are NOT rebadged dealer returns. (By the way, thank
>you for being clear in your post that you were ASKING not accusing).
>

I'm not accusing, but my source quotes a United States International
Trade Commission report, Publication #3196, "Pianos: Economic and
Competetive Conditions Affecting the U.S. Industry" as his source for
this information. However, as I do not have a copy of my own to look
at, I don't know if he may have misunderstood or misinterpreted
something. Are you familiar with what this report states?

Thanks,

Rick Clark

[Larry Fletcher]

>From: jaso...@my-deja.com

>The dealer reception of these pianos has been excellent. The dealers
>have NOT been "returning them in droves".

I beg to differ. The things are horrible. I've seen some with bridges that
looked like they were notched by a beaver. I've yet to see one with a good
finish - every one of them looks like they were final buffed with Comet.
Actions?.......give me a break. There is a standing offer to swap them out if
they're bad, and from what I hear about half of them need swapping out. I sent
all but one of them back myself..

>E-mail for more information and please visit youngchang.com for more
>information on Bergmann or any other Young Chang product.

Now *there's* a sales pitch if I ever heard one.

Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician

Doing the work of three men.........Larry, Moe, and Curly

[Gary Moran]

This report is available to download in PDF format at  : PIANOS: ECONOMIC AND COMPETITIVE CONDITIONS AFFECTING THE U.S. INDUSTRY (Publication 3196; May 1999)   http://www.usitc.gov/wais/reports/arc/w3196.htm

[jaso...@my-deja.com]

Larry, my experience is not at all like yours. While the finishes are
not "hand-rubbed" and are not particularly good, the instruments are
both cosmetically and structuarlly competative with other pianos in the
low-end price ranges.

Also, I was not aware that you were a Young Chang dealership.

In article <20001016231835...@ng-xb1.aol.com>,

[Rick Clark]

Jason,

I have now spoken again to the person who originally told me this
Bergmann info. He did not lift this particular info concerning the
rebadging from the government report spoken of. The report does
mention quality problems with the Young Chang Chinese products,
however, and that's how he got on the subject.

It is simply that the conversation we were having was about this
government report, and he tossed in the rebadging idea based on 1.
That early Young Changs from the new Chinese factory factory were
returned in large numbers. 2. Subsequent to this, Young Chang decided
to create the new Bergmann name for the pianos coming out of the
Chinese factory, which are clearly of lower quality than Korean Young
Changs. 3. He doesn't believe all the returned Young Changs simply
disappeared or were thrown in the trash, but he believes them to have
been rebadged as Bergmann, and sent out with newer Chinese-made
Bergmans. But he doesn't know it for a fact, and it doesn't say that
in the government report.

Thanks,

Rick Clark

[jaso...@my-deja.com]

Most of the few earlier units that were returned we sold as used pianos
by a dealership in Texas and several other areas. These instruments
were sold (or are for sale), mostly over the Internet as used pianos,
with "as-is" cabinets. In most cases any instruments with problems,
the original purchasing dealer solved them, as they do with all other
brands. YC reimbursed dealers, in full for all work. In this way they
tried to be sure that any work necessary was done.

The position that there were huge quantities of returns is false. The
problems were quite typical for newer piano factories. The Bergmann
line has improved considerably over the past year. This is due to
their gaining experience and for a reduction in quantity produced to
provide more time in the factory to attend to greater detail.

In article <39ec9586...@news.mindspring.com>,

[Rick Clark]

Jason,

Thanks for the info provided. "Huge" of course is a relative term. I
don't know how many were returned, I'm sure the person I was talking
to doesn't know, and if you know, you haven't said. In any case, I
guess the Texas used piano shoppers or Internet bargain hunters are
the ones stuck with them now. I can't say I feel this was a wise
course of action for Young Chang- having bad product circulating
around, even if labelled "used", but that is their business not mine.

RC

[jaso...@my-deja.com]

Most of the problems werecabinet damage due to poor packaging. We
receive several instruments with bad scuffs on or cracks in the legs,
particularly in the curved leg models. The way the units were packed
did not allow for the often rough handling that pianos get in shipping.

Dealers who had no refinishing facilities sent them bak, thos with such
facilities fixed them and billed Young Chang. So the units sold were
not "bad product", just cosmetically flawed.

In article <39ed07be...@news.mindspring.com>,

[Larry Fletcher]

>Does anyone have facts on this and can confirm or deny the reality of
>these claims?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rick Clark
>

I don't have a document signed by Young Chang saying the piano is a piece of
crap, but I can tell you with all certainty that every dealer I know who sells
YC has had the same experience with them that I have. All of them tell me the
same story - over half of them are sent back because of workmanship, and I
don't mean finish flaws caused by improper packing. In fact, the packing was
the *only* thing they seemed to be able to do right.

I mean pin blocks that wouldn't hold, bridges notched so poorly they looked
like a beaver had chewed them out, bridge pins you can pull out with your
fingers, sticking out at every possible angle and driven to every possible
depth (or lack of it), bridge pin holes drilled right through the side of the
bridge with the pin sticking out through the hole, string windings coming
undone, Bass strings with the hex core coming right up through the agraffe and
around the pin, actions that collapse within a week, regulate them and they
collapse again in 2 weeks, no crown, loose ribs, finishes that look like they
had Comet on the pad, and a standing offer to replace them as often as the
dealers wanted until they got a good one. Whether or not the returned ones are
getting rebadged I can't say. But I *can* say the piano is about one notch
below a Belarus. If the Trade Commission makes these claims, I can tell you
they are trying to be kind.

I sent all of them back but one. I should have sent that one back, but the lady
who bought it made it clear she wanted a coffee table, and was happy.

[jaso...@my-deja.com]

Obviously, you have a real ax to grind here. I am a YC dealer and
received the Bergmanns from the beginning. You say YOU returned all of
tem. I repeat my question - Are you a Young Chang dealer?

In article <20001018183500...@ng-ca1.aol.com>,