Buying a used Yamaha piano from Rick Jones: U1, X, UX1 or YU1?
Patrick Teffenretter
I've been doing some research and am familiar with the arguments
against "grey market" pianos.
Suffice it to say that I'm going to get a used one and I favor a
Yamaha. Can people tell me if there's an appreciable difference
between the U1, X, UX1 or YU1 pianos?
Also, I'm talking to Rick Jones piano who is just outside of DC. Has
anyone dealt with his store? I've heard good things, but would
appreciate any feedback.
For the pianos listed above, I've seen prices in the mid $3000s to the
mid $4000s, and these pianos are about 15-30 years old.
Thanks.
ptooner
"Patrick Teffenretter" <pteffe...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3dcf9020.04010...@posting.google.com...
Okay, here's some food for thought. Ignoring the grey market thing for the
moment, by now everyone on this ng knows that the "list" price for a piano
is twice the wholesale price. So, if a piano "lists" for $12000 the dealer
pays $6000 plus shipping (maybe $500?) and then he has delivery and tuning
and other costs. Anyway, suppose you buy a piano new and then need to get
rid of it immediately. You go to a dealer, and he is going go offer you
something less than he can buy a new one for of course. So, in our example,
if you had actually paid $12k for the piano, the dealer would offer you
something less than $6k, probably more like $5k. Now, perhaps you could get
another $1000 from a private party so maybe you could sell it for $6k or
$6500. In the real sold, you probably paid between $8000 and $9000 for the
piano to begin with (25 to 30% off) so that isn't quite as bad as it sounds.
What I was getting to is this: If this shop tells you that a new model
sells for $12k and they're selling their 25 year old grey market import for
$6k and you think that's a bargain I have some water front property I want
to show you. Seriously, I can't see any pattern to his pricing. In one
example, he compares a 1927 (yes that year is right) cheap American Conover
to a modern Korean Conover. The only thing they have in common is their
length. I can't judge the quality of his pianos over the internet, but I am
not encouraged by the quality of his advertising.
Gerry
dave_holo
> news:3dcf9020.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > against "grey market" pianos.
> >
> > Suffice it to say that I'm going to get a used one and I favor a
> > Yamaha. Can people tell me if there's an appreciable difference
> > between the U1, X, UX1 or YU1 pianos?
> >
> > Also, I'm talking to Rick Jones piano who is just outside of DC.
Has
> > anyone dealt with his store? I've heard good things, but would
> > appreciate any feedback.
> >
> > For the pianos listed above, I've seen prices in the mid $3000s to
the
> > mid $4000s, and these pianos are about 15-30 years old.
I bought a 25yr old grey market U1 last July in Seattle for $3000,
delivered with bench. It had been reconditioned and looks, feels, and
sounds as good as a new piano. I found the thing through a technician.
We went to a warehouse where he helped me pick it out. He delivered it a
couple of days later, and spent a few hours in my home regulating,
tuning, and voicing.
I'm not a player. I'm a cornetist and band leader who needed a
rehearsal piano. Both of the piano players in my bands like the action
and the sound. Both assumed it was new until I told them how I came by
it. One - having a little tech in him - took the covers off and looked
it over. He gave it a thumbs up.
It's been six months now. It's held its pitch, the sound is still crisp
and clean, and the regulation is still great. It's a nice instrument
which has even interested me in attempting to play. It's actually fun
to practice, and I'm starting to feel some satisfaction from my efforts.
I used my previous old upright solely for arranging. I don't know if
I'll ever be a player, but I've certainly enjoyed having this instrument
in my home.
I'd recommend getting a technician involved. Also, read that great book
by Larry Fine. You'll at least be able to understand what your tech is
telling you when you look through the choices. The warehouse sold the
piano to my tech, who sold it to me. I assume his price was less than
mine would have been (if they would even have dealt with a retail
purchaser), and that he viewed it as a relatively uncomplicated moving,
tuning, voicing job that wouldn't have come to him any other way. It
appears to me to have been a good deal for both of us.
Again, I am not a piano player or piano tech, but I am a good musician.
I can hear what it the instrument sounds like when my piano-playing
friends use it, and I take their word for it that it's a nice instrument
to play. Hopefully, I won't discover a couple of years down the road
that the horror stories about grey market pianos aren't so exaggerated,
I don't know. For now, though, it seems as though I got about as much
from my budget as I had any reason to expect.
Here's hoping you do too.
Dave
H. Emmerson Meyers
in a warehouse unplayed) that I thought were a good buy. As far as the
Yamahas go the tag price is inflated like every where else. I don't know
what he actually sells them for. If you buy one of these pianos, however,
you should also be prepared to buy new hammers and shanks because they've
almost all have had the hell played out of them somewhere over in Asia, and
while they may be voiced to sound ok for a while that won't last long!! So
factor this into the price. New hammers and shanks are an expensive
proposition (like a couple of thousand dollars) and then be prepared to have
the action regulated to accomodate the new hammers!!
"Patrick Teffenretter" <pteffe...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3dcf9020.04010...@posting.google.com...
PaulYarishRPT
>anyone dealt with his store? I've heard good things, but would
>appreciate any feedback.
Your question is a relatively simple and straightforward one, but I would like
to use your question to address numerous issues raised over the years on this
newsgroup in reference to Rick Jones and the pianos he sells. Hopefully, much
of it will be of use to you, or others like you.
I am a Registered Piano Technician with the Piano Technicians Guild, and have
been servicing pianos in-home for Rick Jones' clients for 11 years. I am a
self-employed piano technician, not a Rick Jones employee, and I have many
clients of my own as well. In the past 11 years, I have literally performed
tens of thousands of tunings on thousands of Rick Jones' pianos, the vast
majority of which are Yamaha and Kawai pianos from Japan, the so-called
"gray-market" pianos you may have heard about.
First of all, I totally reject the term "gray-market," as it is a term coined
by new piano dealers whose sales are threatened by the these pianos, and wish
to brand them with a term that will make potential buyers of these pianos think
twice, or perhaps I should say, not think at all, but rather run to their
nearest new piano dealer.
In 11 years of servicing these pianos, I have never run across a single
so-called "gray market" piano that did not perform up to the same standards as
pianos made in the US for the US market. The question that usually arises is
whether the wood used to build these pianos is able to handle the dryness
created by the heating systems in most American homes. While it may be true
that the Japanese climate is very humid, and central heating is not nearly as
widely used in Japan as in the US, that doesn't seem to translate into wood
that falls apart or becomes damaged when exposed to American central heating
systems. Think of how foolish Yamaha and Kawai would have to be to make pianos
that could not survive outside their home country. Suppose a person purchased a
piano in Japan and then moved to the US with their piano only to find that it
falls apart or is heavily damaged after being exposed to sustained dryness.
Think of how damaging that would be to Yamaha and Kawai's international
reputation. My experience is the exact opposite. The thousands of so-called
"gray-market" Yamaha and Kawai pianos I have serviced have shown no such
problems. On the other hand, I have seen pianos made in Brazil, China, and
Russia that were purchased there and brought here by their owners only to
become crippled and unusable after only a year or two in an American home, due
to wood that wasn't prepared for dry heat. It's not a pretty sight. In fact,
it's quite sad. What a waste of perfectly good trees. If these so-called
"gray-market" Yamaha and Kawai pianos could not cope with life in an American
home environment, it would have revealed itself a long time ago.
Furthermore, I have owned one of these pianos myself for 5 years. I purchased
it from Rick Jones in 1999. It is a very typical example of what Rick Jones
sells. My piano is a Kawai vertical made in Japan in 1986. When I first saw it,
Rick Jones' crew had not yet done anything to it. It looked as if the previous
owner had played it very little, if at all. It was clean and new looking
inside. The piano now lives in my old apartment building with me where humidity
control is very difficult. On cold winter days like today, with the heat inside
running at full blast, the humidity can sometimes plunge to 12%! Furthermore, I
beat the hell out of this piano, pounding it mercilessly whenever I do play it.
And yet, besides some obvious wear to the hammers from all my ham-fisted
playing, the piano performs as it did when I bought it. Furthermore, several of
my best friends, who trust my advice, have bought similar pianos from Rick
Jones, and have been thanking me ever since for finding them such a great piano
at such a good price.
As a potential piano buyer, whether this is your first piano or not, you should
do your homework. Asking around this newsgroup is one way to do that, but you
should also read Larry Fine's "The Piano Book," now in its 4th edition, and in
which a new section about "gray-market" pianos has been added. On this topic,
he basically says the same thing as me, and like me, his conclusions are based
on years of field research, not rumor and speculation.
As far as Rick Jones Pianos is concerned specifically, you should not worry.
Every piano he sells comes with a 10-year warranty.
Every pianos he sells is reconditioned, which is to say that any wear that may
have been put on the piano by the previous owner, which is usually very little,
has been removed to make the piano pretty much like new.
Every piano he sells can be traded-in for any other Rick Jones piano of greater
value for the price you paid for it, forever, which means that any piano you
buy is like a down payment on a better future piano.
The people who work on the floor greeting customers are not commissioned sales
people in suits. They are piano workers, who double as piano technicians, piano
refinishers, and piano movers when they're not greeting customers. They don't
try to pressure you into buying anything, and don't try to sell you more piano
than you need.
In short, it's a good operation, and its success is due to a simple and honest
approach to doing business that most people find refreshing and comforting.
Rick Jones has a good reputation in the area and that is something that is very
important to him. He has worked hard for it. He will bend over backwards to
please you, and if by some freak occurrence you should buy a piano from him
that displeases you, he will stop at nothing to regain your happiness. Nothing
upsets him more that the idea that someone out in the world who bought a piano
from him is not happy with it, and is out there somewhere soiling his good
name.
Furthermore, I think highly enough of Rick Jones and his operation to put my
name and reputation on the line on this newsgroup to endorse his business, and
I have no concern that doing so will in any way reflect badly on me or my
integrity.
In short, you can buy from Rick Jones with confidence.
All the best,
Paul Yarish, RPT
Michael S.
experience.
In 1997, I went through an exhaustive search for a piano for our home,
visiting virtually every dealer in the DC area (we were new to the
area) and looking at both new and used pianos.
When I mentioned the possibility of a "gray market" piano to new piano
dealers, several salesmen warned me that I'd have sound board
problems, action problems, hammer problems, serious problems. In
short, they told me, "it'll fall apart."
Concerned, I began to call some area piano technicians -- not persons
whose names were provided by Rick Jones (and not Paul Yarish, whose
comments I've noted above and whom I've since come to know and respect
greatly). I made several calls, and spoke to at least two and perhaps
three technicians who told me that while they didn't know Rick Jones,
they had tuned used foreign market pianos he'd sold, and had not
encountered any problems or out-of-the-ordinary conditions.
I bought a used ("gray market," if you will) Yamaha upright from Rick
Jones Pianos in late 1997. It was by far the best sounding piano for
the money that I'd found during my extensive search (which even
included one quick trip to Philadelphia!)
The piano has been outstanding -- solid, big sound, holds tuning very
well, and we've had no problems at all. When played by an
accomplished pianist (regrettably, this absolutely excludes me), our
piano sounds wonderful. And while I'm no pianist, I am a music lover
and a fussy listener, having heard piano players like McCoy Tyner,
Cedar Walton, Ahmad Jamal, Walter Davis, Jr., Stanley Cowell, and even
the late Bill Evans and the late Michel Petrucciani -- all in small
jazz clubs where pianos are meant to be heard.
Incidentally, after my experience, I enthusiastically recommended Rick
Jones Pianos to close family friends of ours. They purchased a used
Yamaha upright and have had an excellent experience with it. And on
two occasions when I was in the store (the old store -- space in an
industrial-type warehouse development and most decidedly not swanky; I
understand the business has since moved to larger, nicer digs),
professional musicians -- one of them a repeat customer -- were there
buying used grand pianos for themselves.
Patrick, you're doing the right thing by shopping and asking around.
And good luck finding your piano. But for horror stories, I'm afraid
you'll have to stick to the movies. There just aren't any to be found
at Rick Jones Pianos.
Michael
PS While I've used the term "gray market," I've used it only to refer
to an instrument manufactured in another country and imported used
from that country, as distinguished from an instrument imported new to
the US through the manufacturer's regular new piano dealer network.
Too often, the term is used in a pejorative fashion, suggesting
something shady or shoddy. Those implications are absolutely
unwarranted in this context.
H. Emmerson Meyers
pianos AND MOST OF THEM THAT COME IN THE DOOR NEED THEM because the pianos
are played the hell out of in an institutional setting.
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040108101607...@mb-m18.aol.com...
PaulYarishRPT
>pianos AND MOST OF THEM THAT COME IN THE DOOR NEED THEM because the pianos
>are played the hell out of in an institutional setting.
Most of the pianos that come through the door need new hammers?
Where on earth did you ever hear that nonsense?
It's very simple:
In my experience, if a piano needs a new set of hammers, it gets a new set of
hammers. I've been in the shop when they're being put on, so I know it's being
done. One thing Rick Jones is not is stingy. However, if the original hammers
only need resurfacing, then they get resurfaced and voiced, not replaced. Why
waste a perfectly good set of hammers? The vast majority of the pianos do not
need new hammers, and have not been played to death in institutional settings.
Who told you that?
Certainly not someone who has bought or serviced a piano from Rick Jones. Many
of his pianos look like they've never been played at all by their previous
owners. I should know. I tune these pianos right after they are sold, and they
are tiptop. Just today, after I wrote my original reply to you, I went out and
tuned a Kawai vertical that I would swear was new. I doubt if it was ever
played at all. Not a trace of wear. Everything inside was original and
immaculate. I also tuned a Yamaha U-3 that was purchased from Rick Jones 9
years ago. I've been tuning this piano since the owner first bought it. It's
still in tiptop shape, and performs as well or better than many new pianos.
What's more, the owner loves it, and she's a trained pianist. Furthermore, I
love tuning it, because it does what it's supposed to do, and I don't have to
bend over backward to make it passable. I don't have to make excuses for it,
like I've had to do with other dealers' pianos I've serviced in the Washington
metropolitan area. I've seen how many corners are usually cut by other dealers
selling used pianos. Nobody does the stuff to used pianos that Rick Jones does,
and that's why technicians in the area love working on his customers' pianos.
Hell, most used pianos aren't even tuned by the shops that sell them, and you
can forget about regulation and voicing.
Like I said, in my experience, hammers are replaced if needed. Nobody gets a
piano with worn out, deeply grooved, flattened-out hammers.
What fool in the used piano business would sell a squeezed-out, beaten up piano
with a 10-year warranty and a guaranteed trade-in?
Someone who wanted to be out of business very soon.
Please, don't take my word for it. Go look for yourself. Go to the shop. Lift a
few lids. Play a few pianos. Look in the shop and see the work that being done
to the pianos before they are turned loose in the showroom. You don't need to
believe me...you can see for yourself. Personally, it makes no difference to me
whether you buy a piano from Rick Jones or not, but it sounds to me like you've
picked up some bad information about his business, probably originating from a
competitor who wished Rick Jones had never been born (he's quite a threat to
the new piano businesses in his area) and you don't know what to believe. I
don't blame you for being confused, but like I said, you don't need to take my
word for it...look for yourself, and by all means, have fun.
Best,
Paul
ptooner
personally familiar with Rick Jones operation, but I am familiar with the
piano business in the DC area in general and it is certainly nothing to be
proud of. If Mr. Jones is indeed satisfying his customers in the way
described it shows that there are still a few respectable people in the
piano business. I can't imagine where Mr. Jones is getting these pianos as
I looked into the possibility some years ago and all I found were exporters
selling 90% ex institutional pianos with new finishes applied. I will curb
my skepticism and accept the opinion from Mr. Yarish who is in a position to
know that they are worth the money. I am still a bit skeptical about the
pricing and advertising on their web site, but that is certainly a more
minor issue.
Gerry
PIANOS007
Paul, I lived in the Washington D.C. area for many years before
moving south for the winter and not returning. I have seen a couple
problems with the "grey Market" Yamahas and Kawais, but the problems
were self inflicted by the owners of the pianos (complete climate
control systems were improperly used....plugged in backwards) Other
than that I have never had a problem with the Pianos or Rick Jones
Pianos. I have found Rick to be a gentleman and an honest dealer.
several of my customers have bought pianos from Rick and are very
happy with them. Purchasing a piano from Rick Jones is one of the
safest ways to own a quality piano without paying an arm and a leg.
12AX7A
>The vast majority of the pianos do not
>need new hammers, and have not been played
>to death in institutional settings.
I've seen a few imported Japanese pianos that appear somewhat tired
and have been priced accordingly...and others that look and play
better than new ones at the local Kawamaha dealer. As with cars,
there can be different levels of used. Somehow it's ok to have a
showroom full pianos that are beat to death as long as they say
Steinway, yet as soon as you place a like new "gray market" U3 on the
floor you're a piano criminal.
Recycling is noble and politically correct as long as it's something
other than a Japanese piano.
H. Emmerson Meyers
from?? For the most part they are 5-10 years old or older. It seems to me
highly unlikely that these pianos come from private sellers. They have come
from institutions, like piano conservatories, where they are played to
death. Though I have not looked at the uprights, I have been to Rick's store
many a time and the grand pianos are shrill sounding as Yamahas that have
been played upon alot tend to be. Is this because they are gray market?? NO!
It is because the hammers are worn down and quite frankly I have never heard
of anyone resurfacing Yamaha hammers.
Now, you can voice these worn hammers and the piano might sound just fine
for a while but this will not last for long. A friend of mine purchased a C5
or C7 from Rick. Sounded great in the showroom, but then became very shrill
at home. When I looked at the hammers it was quite apparent that they were
substantially worn down. He had Rick re voice the hammers and that did not
do the trick. The piano was ok at first, then became shrill very quickly and
would not play quietly. The cost of replacing the hammers and shanks and
then regulating the action is several thousand dollars. My friend concluded
that his good buy was not such a great buy after all when he considered the
money that he would have to put into the piano.
Now most buyers will not notice the things that I have just pointed out so
it probably does not matter. That, and the fact that it is likely not cost
effective to do so, is probably why Rick does not replace hammers. But if
you are a discerning pianist (and I'm sure that this is the rare buyer at
Rick's store)---you will not be satisfied with a shrill piano that doesn't
play quietly and that needs new hammers. And I agree with you that Rick is
a reputable piano dealer!! I don't think, however, that this negates my
observations. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040108212011...@mb-m28.aol.com...
12AX7A
Yet that is what this thread is about. Kind of like saying "I'm not a
doctor, though I play one on TV".
>I don't think, however, that this negates my
>observations. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
Like anything used, the quality can be variable. My model year 1999
company car has 95,000 miles and shows signs of age whereas my own car
I recently sold, a Y2K with 30K miles, looked and ran showroom new.
The person who started this thread said:
++I've been doing some research and am familiar with the arguments
++against "grey market" pianos.
++Suffice it to say that I'm going to get a used one and I favor a
++Yamaha.
There is a pretty easy solution, tell the original poster that he
should save up his money until he can afford to buy new. Maybe the
piano is for a child just starting out in which case the kid will just
have to wait 5 or 6 years before he/she can start taking lessons.
PaulYarishRPT
unsuspecting public that have been first beaten like a rented mule, and then
sold AS IS, and at inflated prices to boot. It's almost as if you're talking
about some other piano dealer in the Washington area (I won't mention any
names). I'm certainly not going to try to change your mind, because it already
seems to be pretty well made up. Still, it's pretty hard for me to imagine how
you've arrived at the conclusions you have. I suppose you have a right to
believe whatever you like, but I can tell you that you're way off base on his.
If anyone should know, it's someone who's been working on these pianos for over
a decade now, and that's a claim I can make.
Like I said earlier, all Rick Jones' pianos come with a 10-year warranty. Only
a damn fool would sell a beaten up hunk of junk with a 10-year warranty. If
Rick Jones sold the kind of junk you've been describing, he would have gone out
of business years ago.
I will simply say once again to you that in 11 years of servicing pianos
purchased from Rick Jones Pianos, I have not seen the kind of worn out, beaten
up pianos you're describing. I have seen thousands of pianos from Rick Jones'
shop sold in great shape, and sometimes amazing shape to thousands of satisfied
customers, most of whom, years later, are still pleased with their pianos (and
if not, they always have the lifetime trade-in to fall back on)...and yes, I'm
including professional pianists and teachers as well, not just amateurs. I'm
also including myself as a client, since I've owned a Rick Jones piano for 5
years now.
As far as the story you related about your friend;
Why doesn't he just ask for a refund and go buy another piano somewhere else?
The Rick Jones I've known for 11 years can't stand knowing that someone out
there is unhappy with one of his pianos. It eats away at him. He takes it
personally. If a piano is unsatisfactory to a buyer, it either will be
modified, exchanged, or taken back for a full refund. Nobody ever has had to
keep a Rick Jones piano that they weren't totally pleased with. I know this
first hand. I have seen clients go through a piano or two before they got the
one that really pleased them, and yes, I've even seen people who could not be
satisfied have their money refunded and their piano taken back, often the same
day they complained to Rick Jones about. However, I have never once seen a
person who was forced to keep a piano from Rick Jones that they did not like.
Therefore, one way or the other, your friend should be able walk away from his
experience with Rick Jones a happy man.
I don't know what more any reasonable person could ask for.
H. Emmerson Meyers
junk nor did I accuse Rick of being a Charlatan. I simply made the
observation that his grands need new hammers---quite understandable given
the number of hours of playing that they have sustained over their lifetime.
Once the hammers are replaced and the actions regulated I am certain that
the pianos, in most instances, are quite fine. In fact, I recommended to my
friend that he do just that with the piano that Rick sold him. Had the piano
been a piece of junk I would never had made such a recommendation; rather, I
would have advised that he get rid of it! Replacing hammers, however, is a
fairly expensive proposition and is one of the reasons that it might be
worthwhile buying a new piano or one from a private seller (hard to find)
with lower mileage then the music school played pianos acquired by Rick!!!
When you factor in the cost of new hammers, shanks, and action regulation,
the fact that Japanese pianos have a limited life span due to the inferior
and softer Asian woods used in the rims, then Ricks pianos may not seem like
such a great bargain after all.
Now please answer my earlier question: Where do you think his pianos were
played while they were in Asia??
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040109220718...@mb-m14.aol.com...
PaulYarishRPT
junk nor did I accuse Rick of being a Charlatan. I simply made the
> observation that his grands need new hammers---quite understandable > given
the number of hours of playing that they have sustained over
> their lifetime.
...and I made the rebuttal that those pianos that need new hammers get them,
and those pianos that don't, don't. You contend that they ALL need new hammers,
based on a few visits to Rick Jones' shop. I contend that you're dead wrong,
based on 11 years of experience in the field.
>Once the hammers are replaced and the actions regulated I am certain > that
the pianos, in most instances, are quite fine. In fact, I
> recommended to my friend that he do just that with the piano that Rick > sold
him. Had the piano been a piece of junk I would never had made > such a
recommendation; rather, I would have advised that he get rid of > it! Replacing
hammers, however, is a fairly expensive proposition and > is one of the reasons
that it might be worthwhile buying a new piano or > one from a private seller
(hard to find) with lower mileage then the
> music school played pianos acquired by Rick!!!
> When you factor in the cost of new hammers, shanks, and action
> regulation, the fact that Japanese pianos have a limited life span due > to
the inferior and softer Asian woods used in the rims, then Ricks
> pianos may not seem like such a great bargain after all.
...and I contend that your friend wouldn't have to have a new set of hammer put
on his piano, because the piano comes with a 10-year warranty, so the hammers
would either be replaced free of charge if they proved unsatisfactory, or the
purchase price would be refunded.
This is the part of your argument that just doesn't add up. You keep saying
that a person buying a piano from Rick Jones would have to cough up a couple
thousand dollars to have a new set of hammers put on. Anyone who knows Rick
Jones Pianos knows that would never happen, because if any client were so
dissatisfied with their piano they felt compelled to have a new set of hammers
put on, Rick Jones would either do it free of charge, or give them their money
back. I've watched his business grow and thrive since 1993, so I know from
experience that what your saying simply doesn't add up.
Oh, and by the way, everything has a limited life span, not just Japanese
pianos.
> Now please answer my earlier question: Where do you think his
> pianos were played while they were in Asia??
How am I supposed to know?
What am I, a psychic?
No.
I'm a piano technician.
I'm not concerned with where these piano were played. I'm only concerned with
the condition in which I find them, and how they continue to perform under my
care in their new home environments. I've told you REPEATEDLY that the pianos I
work on SHOW NO EVIDENCE of having been played to death in any institution, in
Asia, or anywhere else, because if they were, it would be as obvious as an
albino rhinoceros. The pianos I work on are clean, and have little or no wear
on their mostly ORIGINAL parts. Remember, I've tuned several thousand of these
pianos over an 11-year period. I own one too, remember? So please, give me a
little credit for having just a little first hand experience. I'm not making
this up off the top of my head.
You also mentioned that these pianos are at least 5-10 years old, as if that's
a bad thing. For a car, I guess that would be a bad thing, but where talking
about a musical instrument built to last 60-80 years. Therefore, 10-year old
piano is roughly at the same point in its life span as a 10-year old child. My
piano is 18-years old, and I'm quite sure it will outlive me.
Frankly, this point that you've been hammering (pardon the pun) sounds exactly
like the argument new piano dealers give to potential buyers to dissuade them
from buying used pianos from the likes of Rick Jones. If you've been to a few
new piano dealers and heard that every piano imported from Japan, the so-called
"gray market" pianos, has been ridden hard and put away wet by legions of
Japanese piano students with sledge hammers for hands, I'm here to tell you
that it's not true. These pianos are hurting their business, so they lie to try
to keep people away from used piano shops. Why do you think I work on Rick
Jones' pianos instead of new pianos for big names dealers? Trust me, there's a
reason. But even if it were true that all Japanese pianos were all heavily
played former institutional pianos, do you actually believe that a respectable
piano dealer would buy such crap and try to sell it without doing anything to
make it better, plus offer a 10-year warranty on it to boot? Think for a moment
how ridiculous that would be.
Have you never considered that many of these Japanese pianos have been owned by
regular people, many of whom rarely, if ever, played their piano, which is why
they got rid of it?
Have you never considered that these pianos might be segregated from the
institutional pianos, and that dealers can choose to buy only these?
Have you never considered that regular Japanese people could be selling their
pianos after owning them for only a few years (maybe their kid's lessons didn't
take, just like kids here)?
One of my Japanese clients (who, by the way, is very happy with the Yamaha she
purchased from Rick Jones) explained to me that as a rule, Japanese people
don't care much for buying used products of any kind. Used pianos don't sell
very well there, even ones that are in great shape with very little wear.
That's why they send them here, where Americans love to save a few bucks by
buying used. For your own peace of mind, you should let go of this idea that
ALL the used Japanese pianos that are sold in this country are institutional
pianos. It's not even close to being true.
However, I will say this:
If the pianos from Rick Jones that I've been servicing all these years truly
are institutional pianos, as you contend, than I want to move to Japan and go
to work in such an institution that would GET RID OF such good pianos!
Take care.
Paul Yarish, RPT
H. Emmerson Meyers
like most of his other Yamaha grands!! The fact that he doesn't replace the
hammers (after all 95% of his buyers could not even tell the difference or
even care if he replaces the hammers--most of them probably wouldn't even
know that they could be replaced!) doesn't mean they don't need to be
replaced for the piano to sound at its optimal best--it simply means that he
is not going to engage in this expense ($3,000 plus for new hammers/shanks
and the action regulation it necessitates) because it eats into his profit
margin and most people don't know the difference anyway, so why bother???
And, by the way, please tell me how it is that he "resurfaces" Yamaha
hammers---I would like to know about that one.
If you were to ask Rick, and he was open with you, he would have to
acknowledge that most of his Yamahas come from institutional settings where
they have gotten alot of play. I doubt, however, that any salesman is going
to acknowledge this fact---particularly when the buyer has no way of
verifying where the pianos have actually been or even knows enough to ask
the question!! If asked he will simply tell the buyer that they were
purchased from a distributor in Asia.
By the way I do not work for Yamaha of America or any other piano dealer,
nor do I sell pianos or have any financial stake in the sale or regulation
of pianos.
You would have us believe that there is no difference between one of his
pianos and a new Yamaha. That is simply not so.
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040110030318...@mb-m14.aol.com...
H. Emmerson Meyers
> pianos.
The above comment is particularly disingenuous. Any piano tech worth his
salt will tell you that Asian pianos do not have the same lifespan as
American or German pianos with hard wood rims. That is why the latter are
often rebuilt and the former are never rebuilt!!!
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040110030318...@mb-m14.aol.com...
12AX7A
>after all 95% of his buyers could not even tell the difference or
>even care if he replaces the hammers--most of them probably wouldn't
even
>know that they could be replaced!
Allow me to translate...
"Ahhh, the savages and barbarians who are his buyers aren't musicians
of my caliber. As a piano snob I must flaunt the fact that I am above
the level of the mere amateur."
Obviously you sir are more interested in stroking your own ego than
giving advice to a person who already seems to know the limitations of
used Japanese pianos and is simply asking if the dealer is reputable.
PaulYarishRPT
>like most of his other Yamaha grands!! The fact that he doesn't replace the
>hammers (after all 95% of his buyers could not even tell the difference or
>even care if he replaces the hammers--most of them probably wouldn't even
>know that they could be replaced!) doesn't mean they don't need to be
>replaced for the piano to sound at its optimal best--it simply means that he
>is not going to engage in this expense ($3,000 plus for new hammers/shanks
>and the action regulation it necessitates) because it eats into his profit
>margin and most people don't know the difference anyway, so why bother???
>And, by the way, please tell me how it is that he "resurfaces" Yamaha
>hammers---I would like to know about that one.
>
>If you were to ask Rick, and he was open with you, he would have to
>acknowledge that most of his Yamahas come from institutional settings where
>they have gotten alot of play. I doubt, however, that any salesman is going
>to acknowledge this fact---particularly when the buyer has no way of
>verifying where the pianos have actually been or even knows enough to ask
>the question!! If asked he will simply tell the buyer that they were
>purchased from a distributor in Asia.
>
>By the way I do not work for Yamaha of America or any other piano dealer,
>nor do I sell pianos or have any financial stake in the sale or regulation
>of pianos.
>
>You would have us believe that there is no difference between one of his
>pianos and a new Yamaha. That is simply not so.
Frankly, I've said everything I have to say on this topic.
I have no desire or need to change your mind. Your mind seems quite made up
already anyway, and based on an imcomplete set of facts. You say you're not in
the piano selling business, but unless you ARE INDEED in the piano selling
business, you could not know the stuff you CLAIM to know as FACT with the
certainty with which you claim to know it. Furthermore, even if you are in the
piano business, you could not know the specifics of Rick Jones' business with
the certainty you claim unless you work for him, or have worked for him. Your
intent is clear; to destroy Rick Jones' reputation, or at least the reputation
of any dealer who sells Japanese imports, and I can't figure out why. Perhaps
you could enlighten us all with an explanation as to how you came to be so
VEHEMENTLY opposed to the importation of Japanese pianos, and those dealers who
sell them.
I took the time to respond to you because after working on these pianos for 11
years, I KNOW what you've been saying here is either wrong or grossly
misleading, and I felt a need to present an alternative view. I've done that to
my satisfaction, and I really have nothing more to say. I'm not going to waste
my time here debating you. I have a life, and it's not sitting here at this
keyboard.
BTW, Yamaha hammers can be resurfaced and revoiced just like any other piano's
hammers. I've done it myself, with excellent results, and so have many other
piano technicians around the country. It's not a trade secret, nor is it taboo.
It's a normal part of piano reconditioning, and does not carry the negative
stigma you seem so desperate to imply.
Anyway, I'm done here. it's been fun.
Take care, and don't hurt yourself.
Paul
PaulYarishRPT
>> pianos.
>
>
>The above comment is particularly disingenuous.
I only meant to say that everything has a limited life span, EVERYTHING. To
single out Japanese pianos, or anything else as having a limited life span is
to imply that some things have an UNLIMITED life span, which is contrary to
reality.
What you were trying to say was the Japanese pianos are poorly made, and
therefore don't last as long as those made in America or Germany.
To that, I have said all along that I have yet to find any evidence of that in
the real world of piano care.
Draw your own conclusions.
Paul
H. Emmerson Meyers
> intent is clear; to destroy Rick Jones' reputation, or at least the
reputation
> of any dealer who sells Japanese imports, and I can't figure out why.
PLEASE STOP THE AD HOMINUM ATTACKS NO ONE IS ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY ANYONES
REPUTATION. I STATED EARLIER THAT I THOUGHT JONES WAS A REPUTABLE DEALER. I
AM SIMPLY MAKING THE STATEMENT THAT HIS PIANOS HAVE GOTTEN ALOT OF PLAY
BEFORE THEY GET TO HIS STORE. ONE OF THE RESULTS OF ALOT OF PLAY IS THE NEED
TO REPLACE THE HAMMERS FOR THE PIANO TO PERFORM A T AND SOUND ITS BEST. IT
DOESN'T MEAN THE PIANO IS NO GOOD. YOU DON'T GET NEW HAMMERS WITH A RICK
JONES PIANO. YOU DO GET NEW HAMMERS WITH A NEW PIANO OR LIKE NEW HAMMERS
FROM ONE PURCHASED FROM A PRIVATE OWNER THAT HAS NOT PLAYED IT VERY MUCH.
PaulYarishRPT
>You would have us believe that there is no difference between one of his
>pianos and a new Yamaha. That is simply not so.
Sorry, but I meant to address this point in my earlier post, but I missed it.
I don't contend that there is no difference between used and new pianos. That
would be absurd and contrary to the law of nature.
What I am saying is that a used piano in good shape, sold at a price
considerably less than an equivalent new piano, more often than not, is as
satisfying to play, service, and own, as a brand new piano. The fact that it
costs so much less only makes it more desirable. However, to expect it to be
exactly the same as a new piano is silly and unrealistic.
Nevertheless, I have run across some used Japanese pianos from Rick Jones, some
qute recently, that defied even this fundamental truism. Their serials numbers
indicated that they were 10-15 years old, but their guts and their performance
was as good, OR BETTER, than many new pianos I've worked on. I would swear that
they were never played at all by their previous owners, so clean and immaculate
were they. You can't fake that. Either it's true or it isn't, and I'm just
telling you what I've seen with my own eyes and ears. You and the other readers
of this thread will have to draw your own conlusions.
I hope that makes it more clear.
Paul
PaulYarishRPT
I haven't been attacking you sir. If I did, I assure you, you would know it.
Good-bye!
Radu Focshaner
> Like I said earlier, all Rick Jones' pianos come with a 10-year warranty.
Only
> a damn fool would sell a beaten up hunk of junk with a 10-year warranty.
Could you explain what is covered by the 10-year warranty ?
r.
Larry
>"PaulYarishRPT"
>> Like I said earlier, all Rick Jones' pianos come with a 10-year warranty.
>Only
>> a damn fool would sell a beaten up hunk of junk with a 10-year warranty.
Not necessarily. One of the oldest tricks in the book for moving old junkers is
to offer a big long warranty on them. Lots of people want something for nothing
- they want a wonderful, magnificent piano, but they only want to spend 500
bucks. Fine - take an old worn out junk bucket with an iffy pinblock and tell
them you'll give them a 25 year warranty! Wow! What a deal! And it must by a
good piano, or he wouldn't put such a good warranty on it!
Three weeks later when the customer discovers that it won't stay in tune, he
calls the dealer. No problem - it has a 25 year warranty! The tech goes out,
tells them the piano is shot, it would cost more than the value of the piano to
repair, but not to worry, the dealer will take care of him! All he has to do is
stop by the store and see them.
The customer goes to the dealer, who says "I'm so sorry! Who would have known!!
Don't worry - just pick out any other piano in the store and I'll give you a
100% credit of your 500 bucks toward it!
The customer says "But the cheapest piano in here is 2500 bucks! I don't want
to spend that much. I want another 500 dollar piano!
Tough. The dealer *has* your 500 bucks, you have a piano that can't be fixed,
and he's offering you a full credit. You can't say he's not honoring his
warranty, but things aren't going the way you expected. So - you're stuck.
The guy holding the money is the one in charge at this point.
Larry
Doing the work of 3 men - Larry, Curly, & Moe
Caution: I do not brake for sales weasels
PaulYarishRPT
Complete satisfaction.
I have a mandate from Rick Jones to do whatever needs to be done to make a
customer happy. I am not limited to how many visits I need to make to
accomplish this nor how much money I charge Rick Jones for the work I do. The
customer's happiness is paramount, and he and I never discuss money. He pays me
whatever it costs to please a customer. Usually the problems I encounter are so
minor that they can be corrected in one 15-minute service call. It's rarely
more that a stuck key or squeaky pedal.
If a customer cannot be satisfied by me, the piano is turned over to the shop.
The bottom line is this:
Nobody ever gets stuck with a piano they don't like unless they don't bother to
speak up. If a customer cannot be made to be satisfied with their piano, the
piano will either be exchanged for another simililar piano of the customer's
choosing, or the cost will be refunded and the piano picked up. I've seen it
done.
However, this an extremely rare occurance. Rarely does dissatisfaction ever get
to that point. If it was a regular occurance, Rick Jones would have gone out of
business long ago. He has confidence in the pianos he sells, and for good
reason.
It's about the most risk-free way I know of to buy a used piano.
Paul
PaulYarishRPT
Yes, I suppose your right. I have known and done business with dealers who
operated just like that. If there's one thing I can't abide, it's being put in
a position where I have to either lie to a client, which I won't do, or tell
the truth about what a crummy deal they got, which I will do, but at a heavy
price, as in NO MORE REFERRALS from that dealer.
However, for 11 years now, I have been able to have honest dealings with all of
Rick Jones' clients. I don't need to lie or make excuses to these clients about
Rick Jones or the pianos he sells. I sleep like a baby, and have a very happy
and loyal group of clients that I am proud to serve. I enjoy my work and the
relationships I've formed. Rick Jones' clients are happy with their pianos, and
I'm happy working on them. That usually means something to most people.
I have no reason to lie or exaggerate. I'm a free lance piano technician trying
to make an honest living in a world that seems to thrive on dishonesty. For 11
years, Rick Jones has proven to me that honesty and fair dealing make a better
foundation for a successful business than sleazy bait-and-switch tactics, or
whatever else you can think of.
I happen to think he deserves better than to be lumped in with some of the
sleazy pianos operations out there in the world. That's why I took the trouble
to put in my two cents on this thread.
Paul
Dave Tempo
one of the "good guys" in the pianos business. I am not a big fan of the so
called gray market pianos (really they're "used imports") for 2 reasons:
1) If you buy anything other than A grade pianos from the importer you're
going to need to do some service beyond just the usual tune and deliver.
Many dealers don't do that - they misrepresent what you're buying and you
get stuck with a $3000 piano that needs $1000 in service.
2) You have no factory backing - if your dealer is a charlitan you're SOL.
And some of these dealers (as Larry pointed out) have a demonstrated history
of taking your money and leaving the customer VERY unhappy.
Both of these issues essentially revolve around the dealer, so if Rick Jones
is doing it right then bully for him!
"PaulYarishRPT" <paulya...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040108101607...@mb-m18.aol.com...
Larry
>Yes, I suppose your right. I have known and done business with dealers who
>operated just like that
>However, for 11 years now, I have been able to have honest dealings with all
>of
>Rick Jones' clients.
Let me state for the record that I don't know Rick Jones, nor do I know
anything about his business, nor was my post intended to reflect on him or his
business in any fashion. I was merely addressing the issue of whether a
warranty on a used piano was any indication that the piano could be trusted.
I've heard others talk of Rick Jones in the past, and I've never heard anyone
say anything bad about him.
Al Stevens
> In the past 11 years, I have literally performed
> tens of thousands of tunings on thousands of Rick Jones' pianos
You are a busy guy. Eleven years is just over 4000 days. Tens of thousands
of tunings is, at the very least, 20,000 tunings. That's an average of five
tunings a day, but only if you work seven days a week and don't take any
days off.
All in good fun, of course.
PaulYarishRPT
>of tunings is, at the very least, 20,000 tunings. That's an average of five
>tunings a day, but only if you work seven days a week and don't take any
>days off.
>
>All in good fun, of course.
Yes, well you're right, of course, but hey, I never said I could add.
In actual numbers, my most accurate estimate is that I have performed something
very close to 11,000 tunings on pianos purchased from Rick Jones Pianos, or
roughly 1,000 a year (hey, look at me, I'm adding!).
True, it's not "tens of thousands" of tunings, but I suppose the real question
is:
Is 11,000 tunings enough to know whether the pianos Rick Jones sells are
respectable, desirable intruments or battered hulks of intrinsically poor
quality?
You decide.
Paul
Al Stevens
> Is 11,000 tunings enough to know whether the pianos Rick Jones sells are
> respectable, desirable intruments or battered hulks of intrinsically poor
> quality?
Are those my only two choices? :-)
As to your perceived objectivity: Even though you are a freelance
technician, you must admit to some amount of loyalty to a client who gives
you that much business; such a relationship compromises your position as an
objective observer and commentator. Not that you aren't objective. Only that
you will be regarded as less than objective by those who choose to question
your opinions. The true measure of the integrity of your client is the
degree of customer satisfaction he enjoys, the number of referrals he gets
from satisfied customers, and the respect he commands from others, like
yourself, who are in the business.
PaulYarishRPT
>technician, you must admit to some amount of loyalty to a client who gives
>you that much business; such a relationship compromises your position as an
>objective observer and commentator. Not that you aren't objective. Only that
>you will be regarded as less than objective by those who choose to question
>your opinions. The true measure of the integrity of your client is the
>degree of customer satisfaction he enjoys, the number of referrals he gets
>from satisfied customers, and the respect he commands from others, like
>yourself, who are in the business.
Yes, of course. Despite my best effort at objectivity, I realize that people
who know neither me nor Rick Jones personally could conclude that I am loyal to
him mainly because he is keeping my schedule filled with tuning referrals. I
suppose there's nothing I can do about that. It's too bad many people assume
that everything boils down to money. Money's fine, but as long as I have enough
of it, I'm happy. I never lay awake at night wishing for more money. The things
I wish for money can't buy.
The last time I did any work for a dealer other than Rick Jones, I left a stack
of cards with a dealer (who will not be named), and within days, my answering
machine was filled with calls from its clients wanting to schedule their first
tunings. Like Rick Jones, this dealer promised that all pianos would be
regulated and tuned just prior to delivery. I scheduled a group of appointments
and went to them feeling optimistic. What I found was a horror show; the pianos
shined on the outside, but inside they were filthy. They had not be tuned or
regulated in years, perhaps not since leaving their maker's factory, but
certainly not while in the care of this dealer. Each piano was hideously out of
tune, and the regulation was grotesque. To say that many hours of work would be
needed on each piano just to bring it back to a passable state would not be an
overstatement. The puny little service call that I was being paid for wouldn't
have begun to scratch the surface. For the first couple of calls, I did the
best I could and moved on, feeling pretty bad about the state in which I had to
leave the piano. Finally, after the third or fourth such piano in a row, I
phoned the dealer's office to ask for advice. I needed to know if they would be
willing to pay me for servicing these pianos properly, that is to say, to
restore them to THE CONDITION IN WHICH THEY WERE PROMISED TO BE when they left
the dealer. My explanation and request was greeted with icy silence followed by
something very close to hostility. I was told that, under no circumstances
should I do more than absolutely necessary to make the pianos palatable to the
typical neophyte/amateur, and to get the hell out of the house as quickly as
possible. I was told that other techs they worked with could tune a piano in as
little as 15 minutes! I was told not to try to make it perfect. This person
asked me if I was another one of these pain-in-the-ass piano techs who are
always trying to make the pianos "too perfect." I was left with the admonition
that under no circumstances was I to do "too much" to these pianos, nor was I
to reveal to the clients how far out of whack their pianos actually were. I was
told to either get with their program, or find some other dealer to freelance
for.
Can you guess which choice I made?
To the last client, I explained as tactfully as I could that the dealer and I
could not agree on the work required, and that another technician would be sent
by the dealer in my place. I then left, without pay, and canceled the rest of
my appointments with the clients of this dealer, also with a tactful
explanation, and moved on. Rarely have I felt as relieved about anything as the
day I washed my hands of this dealer, though I felt terrible for its woefully
deceived clients. From sharing this story with other techs and clients, I get
the sense that this scenario is more the norm than the exception.
In 11 years, Rick Jones pianos has never once put me in the position that the
other dealer put me in just one day. I have never encountered a piano from Rick
Jones in which the pre-delivery service promised to the customer at the point
of sale had not been done. I have never had to argue with Rick Jones on the
phone about how much or how little I could do to make a client happy with their
piano. He does his job, and he let's me do mine.
I have never had to lie, exaggerate, or otherwise deceive a customer to cover
Rick Jones' ass, or because he's too cheap to pay for quality work. I am free
to do whatever needs to be done without prior authorization, but most of the
time, that amounts to little more than tuning and fixing the occasional
mechanical glitch. His pianos arrive at their owner's homes tiptop, as
promised, and I take over from there.
So sure, I'm loyal, but it would be a mistake to think that it's all about the
referrals. My loyalty is inspired by the quality of the pianos Rick Jones
provides to his clients for me to work on, and the fact that I am allowed to do
as I see fit to these pianos without argument or prior authorization. The fact
that his clients are generally very happy with their pianos, and rarely have
any doubts about the wisdom of their dealings with Rick Jones only makes my
days even less stressful than they already are. This may sound ridiculous to
anyone who has not been a freelance piano technician, but I can't tell you how
good it feels not to have to lie to clients every day about their pianos and
the dealer who sold it to them in the normal course of my work.
So, though I may not be the last word in objectivity (though I try), one need
not rely on me for objective feedback. Rick Jones' business has produced one
humongous body of happy piano owners. Just pay a visit to his shop. The walls
of his cavernous shop space are very nearly covered with dozens, perhaps
hundreds of letters from satisfied clients from all over the region, and many
from outside the area. They include professional pianists, teachers, music
schools, and a great many regular people. I think these letters are the closest
thing to purely objective feedback we have when it comes to Rick Jones and his
pianos, and are far more meaningful than anything I have to say.
Paul