Sympathetic resonance in digital pianos
Dick Norton
>
> By the way, i'm looking for a _portable_ digital piano, < $3000.
Me too.
Sorry to have nothing to add really, except an amplification to
the question: Is there any REALLY portable digital piano out
there, meaning one that I can take down into two sections? It
would be so simple - has the hernia lobby gotten to all
the manufacturers?
Thanks,
Dick Norton
Teppo
been the lack of sympathetic resonance. No matter how good the samples are,
they don't sound real when the "strings" don't have any effect to other
un-damped strings.
However, I was really pleasently surprised, when I found this from Kawai's
web-site:
"The MP9000 tone generation system adds "sympathetic resonance" that
introduces the harmonic information of the un-damped strings, plus dynamic
half-pedaling."
I haven't had a chance to try the MP9000. So does this sympathetic resonance
modelling really sound like the real thing, and does if affect always, or
just when holding the sustain pedal down?
How about other digital pianos (Roland RD600, GEM Pro 2 for example), do
they have a feature like this?
Don Mannino RPT
CA-950 and CP-170, and perhaps others) is created by the effects processor,
and it actually works pretty well to my "acoustic piano" ears. It is
adjustable, and I usually set it stronger than the factory default - this
really helps the treble notes to ring when the pedal is held down.
You'll have to try it for yourself.
Don Mannino RPT
(Kawai 'real piano' technician)
"Teppo" <mar...@norssi.jyu.fi.nospam> wrote in message
news:8b67jv$3hm$1...@tron.sci.fi...
Niclas
> How about other digital pianos (Roland RD600, GEM Pro 2 for example),
> do they have a feature like this?
I think there are several manufacturers who offer harmonic resonance
modeling but the techniques seem to differ.
GEM RealPiano seem to have succeeded with their solution as it has
received many good reviews, and the expander module costs only about
$500. I haven't yet tried it myself but the sound sample is impressing.
Also, Nemesys offer piano sample CDs for use with GigaSampler where they
claim to make use of this technique in some way but I'm not sure how and
in which degree. Keep in mind that their sample solutions use more than
1 GB piano samples (compare this with Yamaha's GT which use 32 MB).
/Niclas
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jory A. Olson
news:8b7pf7$4ps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I think there are several manufacturers who offer harmonic resonance
> modeling but the techniques seem to differ.
Most of the digital pianos that claim to have "sympathetic resonance"
features built into their pianos just filter the samples to emphasize the
harmonics. As I have gone into great length on this NG several times, it is
quite beyond the capabilities of ANY current system to model sympathetic
vibrations in real time. This especially applies to $2K pieces of consumer
electronics. An acoustic piano is a non-linear system. Modeling non-linear
systems is still in it's infancy. Pay no attention to the claims of the
manufacturers. What they try to do is to give the full sound of LOTS of
strings vibrating all at once. This is not sympathetic resonance.
On your acoustic piano slowly press down middle "C" so that the hammer
doesn't strike the string. While holding down middle "C" (so the damper is
lifted), play and release the "G" about 1 1/2 octaves above middle "C".
What do you hear? You hear the "G" sympathetically vibrating on the middle
"C" string. Remember that you released the "G" so the damper is down on it,
but yet you are hearing "G". If you could see the string it would have
three full standing waves on it. Fun with physics....
Now try this on your digital piano. What do you hear? That silence is your
guarantee that the manufacturer's marketing department is doing their job
:-)
This may be academic to some, but it is the easiest way for me to tell if
I'm listening to a recording of an acoustic or digital piano. It's a dead
giveaway.
Jory
--
Remove "NOSPAM" from address to reply
WindMill
> On your acoustic piano slowly press down middle "C" so that the hammer
> doesn't strike the string. While holding down middle "C" (so the damper
is
> lifted), play and release the "G" about 1 1/2 octaves above middle "C".
> What do you hear? You hear the "G" sympathetically vibrating on the
middle
> "C" string. Remember that you released the "G" so the damper is down on
it,
> but yet you are hearing "G". If you could see the string it would have
> three full standing waves on it. Fun with physics....
>
> Now try this on your digital piano. What do you hear? That silence is
your
> guarantee that the manufacturer's marketing department is doing their job
> :-)
>
> This may be academic to some, but it is the easiest way for me to tell if
> I'm listening to a recording of an acoustic or digital piano. It's a dead
> giveaway.
>
> Jory
If you try this on a GEM RealPiano, you do hear something...
Alan Jones
"Jory A. Olson" <jo...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:MeSM4.3771$RQ1.6...@nntp3.onemain.com...
| Niclas <nje...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:8b7pf7$4ps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|
| > I think there are several manufacturers who offer harmonic resonance
| > modeling but the techniques seem to differ.
|
| Most of the digital pianos that claim to have "sympathetic resonance"
| features built into their pianos just filter the samples to emphasize the
| manufacturers. What they try to do is to give the full sound of LOTS of
| strings vibrating all at once. This is not sympathetic resonance.
|
| doesn't strike the string. While holding down middle "C" (so the damper
is
| lifted), play and release the "G" about 1 1/2 octaves above middle "C".
| What do you hear? You hear the "G" sympathetically vibrating on the
middle
| "C" string. Remember that you released the "G" so the damper is down on
it,
|
|
Jory is right, of course, but for some music and for some purposes the lack
of real sympathetic resonance is of little consequence. I want my digital
piano to make a nice sound and to be reasonably responsive to touch, but I
don't expect it to be a perfect substitute for an acoustic. At the price, I
think its advantages in my particular circumstances outweigh its
shortcomings.
Even so, on my Clavinova 860 there is reasonably convincing resonance with
the sustain pedal down. Playing a bass C one can hear a G at the twelfth and
(more faintly) a higher C, as well as very faint higher harmonics I can't
identify. (For the effect to work well the appropriate "function" setting
has to be at or near the maximum.) I suppose this is achieved by the
filtering Jory describes. It doesn't work so well from middle C upwards.
As with all the other variable settings, including temperament, there has to
be a period of trial and error before the most pleasing sound is obtained;
for instance, very slight variations in the volume and tone settings can
dramatically modify the "realism" of the tone, and the "touch" setting does
much more than change the touch!
Alan Jones
Steve_K
AJ> Jory is right, of course, but for some music and for some purposes
AJ> the lack of real sympathetic resonance is of little consequence.
I guess it might be, depending on your viewpoint. But just personally,
every time I hear the latest generation of digitals I am underwhelmed.
Any individual _note_ usually sounds OK, but the whole thing put
together does not sound or act like a piano. I keep hoping that
eventually they'll get good enough to be convincing.
Listen to some classical piano mp3's from mp3.com, and it's always
painfully obvious which were recorded with real pianos and which are
digitals. IMHO, the digital ones are not very pleasant to listen to,
even when the performance itself is good. (Although many times the
performance is really a midi stream, instead of a human player, which
makes it even worse).
- steve
Darryl Greene
practice. I find the Yamaha to be quite an acceptable substitute for
practice sessions or as a replacement for poorly-maintained
instruments that are found in most locations. Personally, I see the
advantage of having both.
- Darryl
Jory A. Olson
news:8e17hf$l3k$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> If you try this on a GEM RealPiano, you do hear something...
Okay, I'll bite....what do you hear? Make sure that the effects are all off
and you actually release the "G" while holding down middle "C". What do you
hear?
Jory
WindMill
>
> Okay, I'll bite....what do you hear? Make sure that the effects are all
off
> and you actually release the "G" while holding down middle "C". What do
you
> hear?
At first I tried this at the (real wooden box known as)piano. Actually, I
don't hear to much. When you try this at a RealPiano, you hear about the
same effect. The effect is more obviuos when you lay down a chord, let's say
C major, without the hammers touching the strings and hit/release C one
octave above. On the wooden box and the RealPiano you get the same results.
If you want to experience these effects for yourself, visit a local dealer
and try some more.
FYI, I'm not stating the RealPiano is a perfect substitute for a real piano
(it's not), but it has very convincing sound effects (like sympathic
resonance) build in and can be made to sound close to a real piano.
Jory A. Olson
> At first I tried this at the (real wooden box known as)piano. Actually, I
> don't hear to much. When you try this at a RealPiano, you hear about the
> same effect. The effect is more obviuos when you lay down a chord, let's
say
> C major, without the hammers touching the strings and hit/release C one
> octave above. On the wooden box and the RealPiano you get the same
results.
> If you want to experience these effects for yourself, visit a local dealer
> and try some more.
Assuming an acoustic piano:
If you are holding down middle "C" (pressed slowly so it made no sound) and
then play and release the "G" a fifth above middle "C" and hear nothing
much, then your piano is severely out of tune or it is completely shot. You
should hear the "G" one octave above the "G" you played sounding quite
nicely on the middle "C" string. This is the basis for the "Circle of
Fifths". Pure physics.
Jory
WindMill
>
> If you are holding down middle "C" (pressed slowly so it made no sound)
and
> then play and release the "G" a fifth above middle "C" and hear nothing
> much, then your piano is severely out of tune or it is completely shot.
You
> should hear the "G" one octave above the "G" you played sounding quite
> nicely on the middle "C" string. This is the basis for the "Circle of
> Fifths". Pure physics.
>
> Jory
I've tried this once again. In fact, this only works (on my piano) on the C
as long as it is one of the three C-keys on the left of the keyboard. I
assume middle C is the C-key on the left to A=440? On this key, it doesn't
work on my piano. So now we know for sure: I need a tuner!
As I've never had piano lessons, I am not aware on how the "circle of fifths
works", but playing the piano has never been a problem for me without this
knowledge. However, maybe it's time to dip into the pool of theory?
Jory A. Olson
news:390B6F8C...@dircon.co.uk...
> On an equal-tempered piano the effect will be less noticeable than on one
where
> the C held down and the G that is struck are tuned as a pure 3:2 fifth.
My piano is tuned about four times a year using ET tuning as is most popular
these days. The "effect" as you call it is quite noticeable. The Q of most
piano strings is not so high as to eliminate excitation at frequencies
within a several cents of the 3:2 ratio. My friends piano that is tuned to
some HT (Historical Temperament) seems to behave about the same as mine.
I'm not sure which HT my friend is currently experimenting with. He seems
to change every few months. In any case, it doesn't seem to matter, in
terms of the experiment I describe.
I conclude that "WindMill's" piano is either exceedingly out of tune, or the
mechanical coupling between the strings is so poor that the middle "C"
string cannot be excited by the "G" string in my example.
Jory
Michael Haslam
"Jory A. Olson" wrote:
> WindMill <pensi...@freemail.nl> wrote in message
> news:8ebfv2$jpn$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...
> > At first I tried this at the (real wooden box known as)piano. Actually, I
> > don't hear to much. When you try this at a RealPiano, you hear about the
> > same effect. The effect is more obviuos when you lay down a chord, let's
> say
> > C major, without the hammers touching the strings and hit/release C one
> > octave above. On the wooden box and the RealPiano you get the same
> results.
> > If you want to experience these effects for yourself, visit a local dealer
> > and try some more.
>
> Assuming an acoustic piano:
>
> If you are holding down middle "C" (pressed slowly so it made no sound) and
> then play and release the "G" a fifth above middle "C" and hear nothing
> much, then your piano is severely out of tune or it is completely shot. You
> should hear the "G" one octave above the "G" you played sounding quite
> nicely on the middle "C" string. This is the basis for the "Circle of
> Fifths". Pure physics.
>
On an equal-tempered piano the effect will be less noticeable than on one where
the C held down and the G that is struck are tuned as a pure 3:2 fifth.
Michael H.
>
> Jory
WindMill
> I conclude that "WindMill's" piano is either exceedingly out of tune, or
the
> mechanical coupling between the strings is so poor that the middle "C"
> string cannot be excited by the "G" string in my example.
>
Dear Jory,
Today I got out the tuning fork to check the piano. In fact, it isn't really
that out of tune, just a bit lowered over the entire keyboard. But I'll have
it tuned within a month or two.
My guess is you're right with the mechanical part. The piano came cheap from
the Rosler factory, but otherwise is great for practise. I've been looking
for about a half year now to buy a quality replacement.
All the best,
WM
A. Prins
Or is this an example of a digital "sympathic-resonance" piano that
actually sounds more "natural" (when it comes to resonance) than some
(/a lot?) accoustic piano's?
So the conclusion would be: OK buy a really good piano, and maintain
it very well, and it will sound better than a digital piano, but when
it comes to the "less-expensive", "less-maintained" (ex: tuned once a
year in stead of once a month, and not tuned by a concert-piano-tuner)
the digitals actually sound better?!?!?
Arian Prins
A Kawai MP9000 (with Symp. res.) player.
But: always enjoys playing a *true* grand piano.
On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:23:15 -0700, "Jory A. Olson" <jo...@ieee.org>
wrote:
>Michael Haslam <mike...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:390B6F8C...@dircon.co.uk...
>> On an equal-tempered piano the effect will be less noticeable than on one
>where
>> the C held down and the G that is struck are tuned as a pure 3:2 fifth.
>
>My piano is tuned about four times a year using ET tuning as is most popular
>these days. The "effect" as you call it is quite noticeable. The Q of most
>piano strings is not so high as to eliminate excitation at frequencies
>within a several cents of the 3:2 ratio. My friends piano that is tuned to
>some HT (Historical Temperament) seems to behave about the same as mine.
>I'm not sure which HT my friend is currently experimenting with. He seems
>to change every few months. In any case, it doesn't seem to matter, in
>terms of the experiment I describe.
>
>I conclude that "WindMill's" piano is either exceedingly out of tune, or the
>mechanical coupling between the strings is so poor that the middle "C"
>string cannot be excited by the "G" string in my example.
>
>Jory
>
>
>