Why German Pianos
Zeng
There is something about those german pianos that make people squirm
with delight whenever they play on them. From Steinway to Steingraeber
to Sauter to Schimmel, german pianos seem not only to have a huge number
of fans in Europe but also from around the world. It seems that in
Europe, even pianos like Pleyel and Mason & Hamlin are second to their
german counterparts.
I know it is biased to say that german pianos are the best, though they
have been around for the longest.However, whenever I enter a music shop
that sells pianos(german,english,japan), german pianos would always
stand out from the rest(their prices!). The standard answer I get from
dealers is that labor cost in germany is the highest in the world(!) and
that it commands a premium(Steinway especially) given its long years in
production.
Personally, I would like to buy one of them, but it seems to me that the
choices that I have - Pleyel(french),
Steingraeber,Sauter,Ibach,Schimmel - all have something good about them
and the worst part is - I love every one of them.
I welcome any biased or unbiased views on the 5 pianos listed above.
Rick Clark
science, and craft of high-quality piano making, how long they have
been doing it without ever sliding into that attitude of building them
cheap and cutting corners, or being driven by marketing ideas.
Recognize that the average factory worker in a German piano factory
has actually received a true education in piano building. This
education is part of the German educational system, so they are quite
serious about pianos even as a society. As a final exam, these
apprentices are actually required to build an entire piano from the
ground up. That's what I call "skill". In addition, consider the
reputation of German engineers, plus that perfectionistic *something*
that seems to be in their character.
Rick Clark
Gary
Best regards
Gary.
Rick Clark wrote in message <388706d...@news.mindspring.com>...
Jim Yassick
>
> Basically, you just should know how dedicated Germans are to the art,
I have found this dedication to quality to be true of virtually
everything that is German made.
Fredisg
Irwin Goldberg....pianist, conductor.
George Gilliland
Bluthner more than ever. . . G.G.
Rick Clark wrote:
> Basically, you just should know how dedicated Germans are to the art,
Yogi Panda
I think. Any opinions about or comparisons between mass produced pianos
such as Kawai vs Schimmel or between hand made pianos such as Yamaha S
series vs ?
FWIW, it seems as if Larry Fine generally considers German pianos a bit
better than Japanese pianos.
Yogi
Radu Focshaner
>>Rick Clark wrote:
>>Basically, you just should know how dedicated Germans are to the art,
>I have found this dedication to quality to be true of virtually
>everything that is German made.
If my memory do not fails me, there were three countries that lost the
last war : Germany, Japan and Italy. Two super powers won the war :U.S.
and U.S.S.R. (not to forget the Great Britain).
Which countries recovered faster ? Germany and Japan. It is not
surprising when you know the Japanese obsession for the smallest
details , together with an infinite patience.
So the Germans produce the Hamburg Steinway, the Japanese the Yamaha,
the Italians Fazioli. The russians produce Belorus fire wood while
besides the Steinway, american dealers are not too much delighted with
their local production (I had to link my babbling to pianos).
As Henry Kissinger pointed out, the industrial boom of Germany, at the
beginning of the last century, was caused by their need to pay war
reparations to the French (the french were "blessed" after the victory
by a high rate of unemployement). As Pogorelich started his career by
losing the contest, Germany surpassed all the others by losing two wars.
Radu
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b...@thepianosource.com
>You forgot Bluthner.
>Irwin Goldberg....pianist, conductor.
What happened to that great Austrian piano,
the Bösendorfer. I know the topic was German but somehow Japan and
Italy got mentioned but no Bösendorfer.
I haven't seen a new Hamburg Steinway in a number of years, however I
remember not quite 2 years ago auditioning a Steinway D in New York
and of the 5 presented, all five were not what I would call showroom
ready as far as the body work was concerned. Really surprised me!
While each was voiced and regulated somewhat differently, part of the
audition, I didn't plan on having to explain away the defects and
flaws in the fit and finish of the casework. Something that I have
never seen in German (or Austrian) products that I have carried.
--
Bob Shapiro - - located in paradise (southwest Florida)
A retail salesperson dealing in major brands with years of
experience in normal retail,in college and armory promotions, etc.
Represented most major and minor brands in the past
Currently representing Kawai, Petrof, Kohler & Campbell, Samick, Technics.
For credentials and also for the answers to many of your questions please see
http://www.thepianosource.com
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com
Yogi Panda <yogi...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Most of the attributes described below applies to the Japanese as well,
>I think. Any opinions about or comparisons between mass produced pianos
>such as Kawai vs Schimmel or between hand made pianos such as Yamaha S
>series vs ?
>
>FWIW, it seems as if Larry Fine generally considers German pianos a bit
>better than Japanese pianos.
I think the big problems with the Japanese instruments are
not in the mass-production, but rather in the engineering choices
made to make them possible to build in quantity at a specific price.
The most obvious element here is the rims, they're quite thin and
are made with laminated soft wood (luan, apparently).
Being mass produced probably makes them better, in some ways.
You won't see as much of the 'meathead with a chisel hacked the
crap out of the thingy to make it fit into the whatsit on this one'
syndromes. You probably will have less chance of the magic combination
of random factors making a truly remarkable instrument.
George Gilliland
methods are geared to produce more pianos than there is a demand for
presently. They've created this situation somewhat first, by building huge
numbers of high-quality instruments and saturating the market with them,
and second, but pushing their digital instruments.
If they lowered production, imported better quality woods, used their
precise production techniques and exhaustive acoustical research toward
building a higher-end piano with a sand-cast plate and rock-maple rim,
these illustrious German names would have to lower their prices or stay
home.
Kawai seems to be heading somewhat in that direction. . .
I'd still take the Bluthner, if Rich would just give me one. . .
G.G.
Jim Yassick
>
> I'd still take the Bluthner, if Rich would just give me one. . .
>
Great choice. You won't regret it.
Ryan Linderman
I have seen many German pianos inside and out over the last year and have
never seen
anything that looked like 'meathead' chisel marks. The fit and finish of
the parts is nothing
less than astounding, inside and out. I watched 5 German pianos get taken
out of their
crates, 2 Sauters, 2 Grotrians, and 1 Bosendorfer. They were in tune
(except one
Grotrian which had been in storage for 6 months in a slightly different
climate), and the
regulation was in such good shape that they were immediately very playable.
It wasn't a
very large sample, but I pretty darn impressed. And as far as having better
chance of
a 'magical combination of random factors', all six pianos were magical. I
don't think it's
random either; I don't think they will let a piano ship unless it's great.
Ryan
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com
Ryan Linderman <ry...@xilinx.com> wrote:
>
>I have seen many German pianos inside and out over the last year and have
>never seen
>anything that looked like 'meathead' chisel marks.
I have also never seen it! I have also not LOOKED. It's
just an impression I have that there's some of it. I know some of
our more illustrious contributors have expressed unhappiness with
the state of the current "high end" piano industry. It was pure
speculation on my part that this included ham-fisted guys with
chisels.
I would, in general, expect more attention to detail from
he Germans. As an America, I feel qualified to report that Americans
are actually pretty likely to think 'hey, who's gonna look under here?'
and hack away. Not to say that they DO, but they might.
Zeng
Do you or anyone on this list thinks that due to Bluthner's 'sweetness',
it is not as powerful(for playing Chopin's etudes) when compared to the
M series of Sauter?
And what about the deterioration of Ibach and Bosendofer in terms of
their constant switch in manufacturing companies over the years. Any
piano retailers know of this 'behind-the-scenes' information ?
...Zeng
LFletc6143
>their constant switch in manufacturing companies over the years. Any
>piano retailers know of this 'behind-the-scenes' information ?
>
>...Zeng
Boy, do you have your information wrong!. I know the "behind the scenes
information" you want quite well.
Christian Ibach is a friend of mine. There was a period where he entered into
an arrangement with Sojin of Korea where he sent some of his key people over to
help them try to redeign the garbage they turned out. In return, Sojin was to
be allowed to market in Korea only a series of upgraded pianos with a small
label in the corner of the fallboard that said "designed by Ibach. True to
their form, however, they continued to turn out the same crap as always, but
started exporting them with only Ibach on it, as if they owned the rights to
that name. Christian filed a suit against them, and they were not only forced
to stop, but as far as I know, stopped building pianos all together. The Ibachs
still handbuild some incredible pianos, but are very limited in production.
I was a Bosendorfer dealer for years. Kimball International is the owner of
that company, and having been one of the largest Kimball dealers in the US for
some years, I know all the top brass there as well. Other than moving the
factory into a larger facility back in the 80's, nothing there has changed.
I don't know what rumors you've been told, but there is no "switching in
manufacturing companies" going on at either maker. They continue to build their
pianos as always, and both do an excellent job of it. There is no
"deterioration" as you state. If anything they are better than ever. I don't
sell either brand, but I couldn't let this piece of totally false information
simply slide by unchallenged.
Hmmm.....when I get to the Namm show in a couple of weeks I may just have to go
pick up the Bosie line again. I might even call Christian and see if he has a
couple I can get as well. Wonderful pianos.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/Technician
"Never play poker with a man named Ace."
Rick Clark
> There was a period where he entered into
>an arrangement with Sojin of Korea where he sent some of his key people over to
>help them try to redeign the garbage they turned out. In return, Sojin was to
>be allowed to market in Korea only a series of upgraded pianos with a small
>label in the corner of the fallboard that said "designed by Ibach. True to
>their form, however, they continued to turn out the same crap as always, but
>started exporting them with only Ibach on it, as if they owned the rights to
>that name.
Hmm, heard a similar tale re another Korean Mfgr. Seems they hired a
"famous name" designer and proudly advertised the fact, but this same
designer made it known that they did not execute the design with all
the details he had specified. Thus the "famous scale designer"
marketing angle was little more than advertising hype.
(PS, before anyone misinterprets the above, this was a while back. I'm
not saying it applies neccessarily to the newest models- and I'm only
repeating from memory what I read. Can't reference the exact
publication/issue. One day I'll find the article again, but who knows
in a large stack of lit where it is?)
(PPS, I remember a similar story here in town where a respected
acoustician was hired to design a (municipal?) concert venue.
Unfortunately the morons in charge refused to believe that certain
design major details were acoustically important, and omitted them as
extraneous. The designer attempted to disconnect himself from the
project because he knew the result would be acoustical disaster. He
even got legal council on the matter. But the venue enforced that he
couldn't walk away from the project. The venue finally opened- an
utter acoustical multi million $ failure that people still haven't
stopped complaining about. The morons attempted to then blame it back
on the designer, but the designer had covered his ass with
documentation and was able to keep the blame where it belongs.
Rick Clark
b...@thepianosource.com
John S. Gray
I was in the factory in Schwelm, just after the 1987 Messe Frankfurt.
There were no finished, regulated and tuned model 240's there, although I
saw and touched several which were moderately near complete assembly. I
did play a 240 but it was at that darn Messe, the noisiest convention in
Europe. No way to judge, let alone enjoy a piano.
off-topic: I recall at that fair Samick had a relatively soundproof booth
with an SG-205 in it. I walked in there and Fenner himself was tweaking a
string with one of those ultra-compact extension hammers. He invited me to
try it out as he hid the hammer in his jacket pocket, and it sounded
gorgeous after all the racket on the floor of Hall 9.
JG
Ryan Linderman
Yes, that is the reputation we American's have, isn't it:-) Try to find some
German pianos
sometime and spend some hours playing them. It's a real treat.
Ryan