Japanese Kawai vs American Kawai
BJ
A Kawai dealer told me today that the Japanese Kawais sound tinny or
"Bright" when compared to their American counterpart which is manufactured
in North Carolina. Is this true? He said the American Kawais have a much
deeper, rich sound. Which piano is better made? Which one holds it's value
better? WHICH ONE SHOULD I BUY??!!! Thanks in advance.
Don Mannino
BJ <sky...@fred.net> wrote in article
<skymed-2808...@skymed.fred.net>...
actions and hammers from Japan, and the soundboards and back structures are
also supplied from Japan. They are assembled, voiced and regulated by
different people, so it is inevitable that the sound will tend to be
different. However, some pianos from the US sound brighter than others, and
some from Japan are brighter than others - this is the nature of piano
building. We would hope that none would sound "tinny!" It is true that our
console models from North Carolina are now being voiced with a warmer
sound, so this may be the source of the dealer's comments.
Contrary to Julian Chen's message, a variety of piano models are made at
each factory. For example, the UST7 model is Kawai's finest studio upright
piano, and is made in North Carolina. Our CX-21D is a less expensive
upright piano, and is made both in North Carolina and in Japan. Our lowest
price vertical is the CX-5H, and it is also made in multiple locations.
I would suggest that you listen to the pianos for yourself and buy the one
which fits your use and budget, and more importantly the one which has the
tone you prefer.
Feel free to E-mail me directly if you have further questions.
Don Mannino RPT, Manager
Kawai Piano Technical Support
DonMa...@worldnet.att.net
-Chen,J.L.
In article <skymed-2808...@skymed.fred.net>,
BJ <sky...@fred.net> wrote:
>A Kawai dealer told me today that the Japanese Kawais sound tinny or
>"Bright" when compared to their American counterpart which is manufactured
>in North Carolina. Is this true? He said the American Kawais have a much
>deeper, rich sound. Which piano is better made? Which one holds it's value
>better? WHICH ONE SHOULD I BUY??!!! Thanks in advance.
Only the bottom of the line Kawai verticles are made in U.S., all higer
line uprights and grands are made in Japan. So go figure if this Kawai
dealer was telling you the truth.
Julian
-Chen,J.L.
In article <01bb9603$c7faeec0$1c54...@932137621.worldnet.att.net>,
Don Mannino <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Contrary to Julian Chen's message, a variety of piano models are made at
>each factory. For example, the UST7 model is Kawai's finest studio upright
>piano, and is made in North Carolina. Our CX-21D is a less expensive
>upright piano, and is made both in North Carolina and in Japan. Our lowest
>price vertical is the CX-5H, and it is also made in multiple locations.
>
Is this just happend recently ? I belive all Kawai uprights and grands were made
in Japan. BTW, in my opinion, the CX-5H is a rather an unimpressive piano
compares to other models of the Kawai verticles.
Julian
DZappa
>For example, the UST7 model is Kawai's finest studio upright
>piano, and is made in North Carolina.
I know this is going to make you mad Don, but I was looking at a UST7
today, one that was 1 year old out of a school. The teacher hates it and
is trading it on a Yamaha P22. I hope you can stand a little critisism.
To say the UST7 is Kawai's "finest vertical piano" is wrong. The US/NS
series is considered Kawai's "finest". I found in the recently inspected
UST7 cracked plastic bridge buttons, keybed looking like it was designed
by Thomas (remember those pieces of crap?), plastic (excuse me, ABS)
damper levers, backchecks, flanges, et al.... I never have minded a ABS
jack, but don't you think Kawai goes a bit overboard with it? By my
count, over 600 pieces of ABS. (Overkill IMO)
I have never seen a US/NS series, but I can take a guess that the design
is a bit more "traditional". Certainly they don't use that metal frame in
the keybed, and I'd be interested if they use quite as much ABS in the
bigger pianos. What exactly are the upgrades to the NS/US from the UST?
Kawai uses "new technology" in building a "better piano", but I am very
interested in what other technicians think of what I feel are serious
design shortcuts. Why don't they just build the UST8 again?? For me, it
just harkens back to the old Thomas piano days (although these pianos are
nowhere near as bad as the Thomas) when the guy played the piano in a
swimming pool.
Now for some serious flaming: The CX series is pathetic. This piano is
about as close to the Thomas as it gets today unless you buy a Chinese
piano. Bass bridge isn't even cantalevered, and you can see the floor
thru the keybed. Face it, they are building that piano solely to compete
with the cheaper Korean stuff. Building this piano just compromises an
otherwise strong lineup of reasonable to good quality product. Steinway
has proven over and over again that marketshare does not a profitable
company make.
sorry to be so critical of the Kawai Don, but I feel they have a long road
ahead of them if they continue to build products like the CX. BTW - I
played an RX2 recently, nice piano!
best regards:
dave
Donald E. Mannino
DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote in article
<50gbvg$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> In article <01bb9603$c7faeec0$1c54...@932137621.worldnet.att.net>, "Don
> Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >For example, the UST7 model is Kawai's finest studio upright
> >piano, and is made in North Carolina.
>
> I know this is going to make you mad Don, but I was looking at a UST7
> today, one that was 1 year old out of a school.
These stories get traded in both directions, and anyone can have bad
experiences with any piano. I have heard many P-22 and P-202 stories, and I
have had the misfortune of servicing some not-so-nice pianos in that line
personally as an independant technician. I won't go into details, but if
you want some serial numbers and owner's names, I can dig them up for you
privately.
No reason for me to get mad - I know our pianos aren't perfect - if they
were, I wouldn't have a job!
> To say the UST7 is Kawai's "finest vertical piano" is wrong. <
You are correct. That is why I didn't write "finest vertical piano." I
wrote "finest studio upright." Seems funny to me that your computer quoted
my message correctly, then you misquoted me in your reply. Was there a
_reason_ for the misquote, Dave?
>Keybed looking like it was designed by Thomas (remember those pieces of
crap?)<
No I don't. The UST-7 keybeds I have inspected were very, very strong -
what's wrong with the ones you have seen?
>I never have minded a ABS jack, but don't you think Kawai goes a bit
overboard with it?
Spoken like a true fan of our major competitor. No, as long as ABS
continues to prove itself so well it will be used more and more. It is used
throughout the Kawai piano line (verticals and grands), with only a few
exceptions because it works so well. Some day talk to a technician who has
installed a set of ABS-flanged hammer shanks in an older Kawai grand - they
are a dream to install and regulate, and the flange screws don't come loose
with seasonal changes. I can refer you to a University technician who
recently did this on some older Kawai grands, and he can relate his
experiences.
>Certainly they don't use that metal frame in the keybed. . .
If you want to criticize Kawai for it's keybeds, then you should also
describe some of the keybeds in your favorite brand. Have you seen a
keybed made of a cut-out particle board frame, covered top and bottom with
thin laminations, with foam rubber filling the cutouts in the particle
board frame? I have, and it was on an expensive, Japanese built vertical
piano, not made by Kawai.
I did a comparison of Kawai keybeds for my own satisfaction in our factory.
I propped up 2 keybeds by placing one end of each on a board on the factory
floor, one the steel frame and the other a "traditional" laminated hardwood
keybed. I then jumped up and down on them. I am not a lightweight man. It
was immediately clear that the steel keybed is much, much stronger. I
invite you to visit the factory in Lincolnton, NC and ask Dick Eckburg (the
plant manager) to allow you to do this test for yourself.
Unfortunately, I didn't have one of those foam-ruber filled ones to use for
comparison!
>Why don't they just build the UST8 again??
We never stopped. This is the studio upright with the metal keyframe. Are
you sure the one your customer is trading in on a P-22 isn't a UST8?
>The CX series is pathetic.
I will be sure to pass this on to our design and marketing departments.
>BTW - I played an RX2 recently, nice piano!
Thanks!
You know, piano makers and their dealers will forever tout the superiority
of materials and construction in their products. That is part of marketing.
It is better, though, to argue strengths without trying to belittle
competitors, as the mudslinging can just as easily be sent back at you.
Then both end up with mud in the eye. A good friend taught me a good
saying: "You can't throw dirt without loosing some ground." Kinda silly,
but has some truth in it.
Dave, I appreciate reading your contributions here, but when you write
messages like you did today you really should let people know that you are
not exactly an un-biased spokesman. A little strong on the Young Chang -
Yamaha praises. Gosh, you wouldn't have something to gain by selling those
brands, would you?
I suppose people can tell. Kinda turns the message into "take it with a
grain-of-salt" material.
Don Mannino RPT, Manager
Kawai Piano Technical Support
(Yep, I'm biased too!)
DZappa
In article <01bb9a2c$79bd2ca0$2f54...@cis.compuserve.com>, "Donald E.
Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>A little strong on the Young Chang -
>Yamaha praises. Gosh, you wouldn't have something to gain by selling
those
>brands, would you?
Hi Don:
For those who follow this newsgroup closely they know that I AM biased
because I DO sell against Kawai, among others. As you figured out, yes, I
sell YC and Yamaha, and I am not a fan of Yamaha's keybed design either.
Freakin things explode if ya drop them.
Young Chang, IMO is building the most durable (albeit not the best tonally
for me) Asian piano. No particle board, no ABS, no foam/steel/strapped
keybed design, etc.. A fine value in an Asian piano (and NOT a cheap
piano either - their vertical prices are right up there with Kawai and
Yamaha).
My personal feeling is that in a vertical piano (and YES, I sell these
too) Baldwin is one of the best VALUES on the market for a majority of
piano buyers. Their new Classic series pianos have been upgraded to "high
quality" status IMO and their agressive price points make them a great
buy.
In response to my "misquote". Isn't a 48" piano considered a studio? I
didn't mean to nitpick, which is what I did, and I apologize for that.
My main reason for posting a response was to find out what OTHER
technicians (perhaps someone who is not as biased as you or I) thought
about "new manufacturing" materials and technics in general. So far, no
response, but I am a patient person.
Regards
dave
Gary Coombs
DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote:
: My main reason for posting a response was to find out what OTHER
: technicians (perhaps someone who is not as biased as you or I) thought
: about "new manufacturing" materials and technics in general. So far, no
: response, but I am a patient person.
Dave,
I'm neither a dealer nor a technician. I have nothing to gain or loose.
I asked my tuner /technician what he thought of Kawai's ABS Styran jacks.
He replied that he was impressed. He put a Steinway wooden jack and a
Kawai ABS Styran jack in a vice. He applied pressure. The wooden jack
snapped under low pressure. The ABS Styran jack witheld an extreme amount
of pressure. He then told me that one of the real problems with wood was
that it absorbed moisture and would swell and contract with the
summer/winter cycle in a typical home. This summer/winter humidity change
causes most of the problems we find in pianos. He stated that to
circumvent the mechanical stresses that a wooden jack has with a material
that is stronger and doesn't swell and contract with humidity made sense.
In short, he has found no problems with ABS Styran jacks and has found many
problems with wooden jacks.
And now my own comment. If wood was a better material to build a critical
moving part from than ABS Styran, than NASA needs to know about the
reliability of wood, as they use ABS Styran in many critical mechanical
devices in the space program.
I would be happy to provide his name and number if you email me privately.
And Dave, I think we have had this conversation before. :-)
--
Gary
Coo...@MindSpring.com
jimg...@interserv.com
I bought a plastic Christmas tree 15yrs ago and it still looks fine but the wood one that I bought
the year before only lasted a couple of weeks. ABS has never let me down?
James Miller
DZappa
In article <01bb9b78$27eaca20$9394...@gary.coombs.sciatl.com>, "Gary
Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> If wood was a better material to build a critical
>moving part from than ABS Styran, than NASA needs to know about the
>reliability of wood, as they use ABS Styran in many critical mechanical
>devices in the space program.
>
>And Dave, I think we have had this conversation before. :-)
>
>
Hi again Gary: Once again, I would like to point out that #1, just
because ABS is used in the space shuttle doesn't necessarily mean its good
for a piano. #2The tech who put the Steinway jack and the ABS jack in a
vice, and the ABS held up better was no shock. My point has always been
what about 30 years from now? How well will the ABS hold up in the vice
then? No one knows. That's my whole point, the ABS is NOT TIME TESTED.
The other post regarding the wood Christmas tree vs the plastic tree is
just completely off the point. Maybe we should talk about putting wood on
car bumpers instead of ABS.
As was pointed out by Don, the Kawai tech, I AM biased but I will argue
this point over and over because I AM RIGHT, show me a 50 year old piano
where the ABS is still holding up and I will concede.
My reason for once again assailing the Kawai piano (which I know the group
has a great affinity for) was because I want (and Don, you're exempt from
this) you technicians to speak up and tell me what you think of the
OVERALL construction of the lesser expensive Kawai studios. What are YOUR
views on the keybed (esp. the one you can see the floor thru), plastic
bridge buttons and anything else good or bad BESIDES the ABS. The ABS
debate is going nowhere.
And just to be fair (and Don, you can jump right in on this one) lets talk
about Yamaha, Young Chang, Samick and any other Asian piano. Plus, lets
talk about your feelings on the differences in "traditional" manufacturers
(ie: -STEINWAY / BALDWIN) and "mass produced" pianos (ie: - Yamaha /
Kawai). Just for fun?
looking forward to the next few days
dave
Gary Coombs
DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote in article <50r769$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> In article <01bb9b78$27eaca20$9394...@gary.coombs.sciatl.com>, "Gary
> Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > If wood was a better material to build a critical
> >moving part from than ABS Styran, than NASA needs to know about the
> >reliability of wood, as they use ABS Styran in many critical mechanical
> >devices in the space program.
> >
> >And Dave, I think we have had this conversation before. :-)
> >
> >
>
> Hi again Gary: Once again, I would like to point out that #1, just
> because ABS is used in the space shuttle doesn't necessarily mean its good
> for a piano. #2The tech who put the Steinway jack and the ABS jack in a
> vice, and the ABS held up better was no shock. My point has always been
> what about 30 years from now? How well will the ABS hold up in the vice
> then? No one knows. That's my whole point, the ABS is NOT TIME TESTED.
> The other post regarding the wood Christmas tree vs the plastic tree is
> just completely off the point. Maybe we should talk about putting wood on
> car bumpers instead of ABS.
>
> As was pointed out by Don, the Kawai tech, I AM biased but I will argue
> this point over and over because I AM RIGHT, show me a 50 year old piano
> where the ABS is still holding up and I will concede.
Had my piano tuned yesterday after work and showed him our discussion thus far.
He said that in his reading the chemically projected stability and usable life
of ABS Styran was 40,000 years. What they "have" done is put a wooden jack and
an ABS Styran jack in a mechanical exerciser that will keep pumping the joint
over and over simulating many years of wear. After prolonged testing the ABS
jack wins that test hands down. It stays solid with a solid feel and the
wooden jack loosens and feels loose and wobbly. He said that the tolerances
that can be built in to the ABS jack are exact and wood tolerances cannot come
close. ABS tolerances stay exact and wood changes with wear and moisture
swelling and contracting. It makes good sense to me. (And to Kawai and NASA.)
> My reason for once again assailing the Kawai piano (which I know the group
> has a great affinity for) was because I want (and Don, you're exempt from
> this) you technicians to speak up and tell me what you think of the
> OVERALL construction of the lesser expensive Kawai studios. What are YOUR
> views on the keybed (esp. the one you can see the floor thru), plastic
> bridge buttons and anything else good or bad BESIDES the ABS. The ABS
> debate is going nowhere.
My tuner was really upset with the current USA made Kawai uprights. He felt
that they had changed some construction practices much to the detriment of
Kawai's reputation. He felt their Japanese produced instruments are as good as
ever, but not the ones made in the USA. He also mentioned the metal framed key
bed that was attached to the metal harp and the ability to look down through
the keys and see the floor. He said that to get the proper feel you need a
hardwood key bed and not a metal frame. He said the entire piano was lighter
and less solid with less bracing. He feels they are sacrificing quality for
price. I was very disappointed to hear him say this.
> And just to be fair (and Don, you can jump right in on this one) lets talk
> about Yamaha, Young Chang, Samick and any other Asian piano. Plus, lets
> talk about your feelings on the differences in "traditional" manufacturers
> (ie: -STEINWAY / BALDWIN) and "mass produced" pianos (ie: - Yamaha /
> Kawai). Just for fun?
He also said he was very impressed with the quality and workmanship in the
current Young Chang. I'll have to go play some Young Chang's now.
> looking forward to the next few days
Me too. I really love piano music and talking about pianos. And I do enjoy
your posts.
--
Gary
Coo...@MindSpring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~coombs
Thomas D. Seay
In article <01bb9d02$8d47a9c0$dd24...@932137621.worldnet.att.net>, "Don
Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Problem is, the material was only invented in the 60s, and was put in
> production in Kawai pianos in the 70s after very, very extensive testing.
> It has now been in our pianos for more than 20 years without failure.
>
> For Dave I guess we'll just have to keep counting until we reach 50. Do
> you apply similar skepticism to everything? I wonder if you were similarly
> critical of new materials being used in other products? Or are you
> requiring such extreme proof because you don't _want_ the ABS to be so
> good?
>
> When plastic action parts got their bad rap in the 1950s, the material had
> begun to fail within 1 to 3 years of manufacturing, and after 5 years none
> of the actions were without some degradation. Contrast this with Kawai's
> experience.
>
> Keep in mind that Maple is not scarce - there is no real reason to use ABS
> other than for consistency, longevity and performance. After another 20
> years go by and the controversy has finally died out, I am sure many other
> manufacturers will change over as well.
>
> Don Mannino RPT, Manager
> Kawai Piano Technical Support
I have to agree with Don on this one. Kawai ABS is clearly superior to
wood, IMO, both in terms of dimensional stability and the close tolerances
to which the parts can be machined. Speaking as a technician who works on
many different brands of pianos, Kawai and Yamaha are clearly the easiest
for me to work on because of the consistency and quality of their action
parts.
One of our local dealers bad-mouthed the Kawai piano for years because of
all those nasty plastic parts, etc. etc. Lo and behold, guess who the
Kawai dealer is now? How *do* you explain to the public that when you
didnÄ…t have the Kawai line, ABS was bad, but now that you have the Kawai
line, itÄ…s really o.k.? As Emily on Saturday Night Live used to say,
Å‚Nev-er mind!Ë›.
Regards.
--
Thomas D. Seay
The University of Texas at Austin
Don Mannino
Dave Wrote:
> That's my whole point, the ABS is NOT TIME TESTED.
> this point over and over because I AM RIGHT, show me a 50 year old piano
> where the ABS is still holding up and I will concede.
Problem is, the material was only invented in the 60s, and was put in
Craig Butcher
On 5 Sep 1996 00:44:21 -0400, dza...@aol.com (DZappa) wrote:
>because I DO sell against Kawai, among others. As you figured out, yes, I
>sell YC and Yamaha, and I am not a fan of Yamaha's keybed design either.
>Freakin things explode if ya drop them.
Is this an issue for an average retail customer? We just bought a C3
grand and it sounds gorgeous. It also feels very nice. Should I
worry about my keybed exploding?
Craig D. Butcher
test
DZappa
In article <01bb9cbc$d85ed960$0100a8c0@gary>, "Gary Coombs"
<coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>Had my piano tuned yesterday after work and showed him our discussion
thus
>far.
> He said that in his reading the chemically projected stability and
usable
>life
>of ABS Styran was 40,000 years. What they "have" done is put a wooden
jack
>and
>an ABS Styran jack in a mechanical exerciser that will keep pumping the
joint
>over and over simulating many years of wear. After prolonged testing the
ABS
>jack wins that test hands down. It stays solid with a solid feel and the
>wooden jack loosens and feels loose and wobbly. He said that the
tolerances
>that can be built in to the ABS jack are exact and wood tolerances cannot
>come
>close. ABS tolerances stay exact and wood changes with wear and moisture
>swelling and contracting. It makes good sense to me. (And to Kawai and
>NASA.)
Ok, fine the ABS debate goes on and on. Yes, I AM skeptical about many
new and improved materials, especially when used in a piano. I am sure
Kawai and NASA have tested ABS to death and I think we have debated it to
death as well. Let me just say that fine, whatever, I really can't fault
Kawai for using ABS if they feel it improves their products, but it is not
JUST the ABS I want to discuss here.
>
>My tuner was really upset with the current USA made Kawai uprights. He
felt
>that they had changed some construction practices much to the detriment
of
>Kawai's reputation. He felt their Japanese produced instruments are as
good
>as ever, but not the ones made in the USA. He also mentioned the metal
framed
>keybed that was attached to the metal harp and the ability to look down
through
>the keys and see the floor. He said that to get the proper feel you need
a
>hardwood key bed and not a metal frame. He said the entire piano was
lighter
>and less solid with less bracing. He feels they are sacrificing quality
for
>price. I was very disappointed to hear him say this.
Any other techs out there feel the same way about this?? I know Don has
been jumping up and down on keybeds at the factory but how about the
others? Any of you techs worked on a fairly recent CX? Impressions?
dave
DZappa
In article <3232670d.7576393@news>, cbut...@umich.edu (Craig Butcher)
writes:
Craig - This discussion concerns vertical pianos for the most part. Only
way your C3 keybed will explode is with dynamite.
dave
John Musselwhite
dza...@aol.com (DZappa) wrote:
>> If wood was a better material to build a critical
>>moving part from than ABS Styran, than NASA needs to know about the
>>reliability of wood, as they use ABS Styran in many critical mechanical
>>devices in the space program.
...
>Hi again Gary: Once again, I would like to point out that #1, just
>because ABS is used in the space shuttle doesn't necessarily mean its good
>for a piano. #2The tech who put the Steinway jack and the ABS jack in a
It doesn't necessarily mean it is, but it doesn't mean it isn't
either. If it stands up to the stresses of getting it into outer space
and keeping it there, at least it has a chance of lasting longer than
that stuff they used to use in inexpensive pianos.
>then? No one knows. That's my whole point, the ABS is NOT TIME TESTED.
...
>As was pointed out by Don, the Kawai tech, I AM biased but I will argue
>this point over and over because I AM RIGHT, show me a 50 year old piano
>where the ABS is still holding up and I will concede.
If _any_ of those pianos last 50 years with moderate use, whether they
have ABS in them or not, I would be surprised. Asian pianos in general
(IMO) are designed and built with a fixed lifespan. The Japanese
understand that, and often keep them for the warranty period and then
trade them in, after which they end up on our shores, purchased by
people who think a piano is a piano and that they all last as long as
Great Aunt Bessie's old Steinway upright.
I would argue that luan (Phillipino mahogany) is an excellent wood for
making the backs of knock-down bookcases, but as a piano wood it
leaves something to be desired.
>My reason for once again assailing the Kawai piano (which I know the group
>has a great affinity for) was because I want (and Don, you're exempt from
>this) you technicians to speak up and tell me what you think of the
>OVERALL construction of the lesser expensive Kawai studios. What are YOUR
Less-expensive pianos are exactly that. In order to compete with cheap
digitals and provide an entry-level instrument many of them are
designed and built to be disposable and probably more recycleable as
well. Kawaii's higher-end pianos are quite nice though, just as all
the higher-end Asian pianos are. I just don't think any of them will
still be viable instruments in 50 years and "student" pianos should be
built to implode after five years or so.
>views on the keybed (esp. the one you can see the floor thru), plastic
>bridge buttons and anything else good or bad BESIDES the ABS. The ABS
>debate is going nowhere.
I'll send it somewhere... B-}) If an "average" piano has an
estimated life of 10-20 years anyway, why waste good wood? At least
the ABS and steel keybeds can be recycled, whereas using the quality
of wood actually required to make a long-lasting piano would mean that
almost irreplaceable wood would just end up being burned or thrown
into a landfill.
Save the GOOD wood for pianos that will be around in another century.
>And just to be fair (and Don, you can jump right in on this one) lets talk
>about Yamaha, Young Chang, Samick and any other Asian piano. Plus, lets
Some of them are very nice pianos, but I have yet to see any of them
that are still alive and kicking after 50 years regardless of the
Asian manufacturer. The oldest Yamaha I work on was made in 1961 and
is a tired old G-7 that deserved a casters-up restoration 10 years ago
(including a new board and pinblock). The oldest Steinway I work on
was built in 1884 and still has the original board in it as well as
most of the original action parts and it still sings.
There's no luan in that Steinway... Mind you, it's all old-growth
maple and spruce too, so by its nature it should last longer, but even
the modern Steinways are maple where the Asian pianos mostly still use
inferior woods for rims and beams (and sometimes action parts).
>talk about your feelings on the differences in "traditional" manufacturers
>(ie: -STEINWAY / BALDWIN) and "mass produced" pianos (ie: - Yamaha /
>Kawai). Just for fun?
Just for fun? You must be one of those people who enjoy rope burns and
slivers too! B-})
Mass-produced pianos are fine for their purpose. They allow the
"masses" to have a nice piano all the time if they treat it like a
Chevy or a Toyota (one of my favourite palindromes I might add) and
trade it in on a new one when the mileage gets high and the warranty
runs out. I think their value is highly inflated, though, especially
once the warranty has run out.
People don't look at their pianos the same way as they do cars or even
other furniture for some reason and think that all pianos should
"last" almost the same amount of time and that "student" piano should
last as long as they're a student. Meanwhile, the "student" violinist
has just spend more on a BOW than what a decent vertical piano would
cost.
To put it bluntly, there are lots of very happy people who use
disposable lighters, write with Bic pens on knock-down desks made from
MDF, drive disposable cars and play disposable pianos - sometimes
failing to dispose of them properly when they're "empty" and we can't
fill it up any more.
Then there are those who would rather use Zippo lighters, write with
Cross pens on desks with actual dovetailed joints, drive Volvos and
play pianos meant to deliver pleasure as long as there is someone to
look after them. I don't want to invest a LOT of money in an
instrument from a factory that practically drops a piano off the
assembly line every few minutes when there are "traditional"
manufacurers (who may only build one line of pianos) - especially when
the traditional pianos can be LESS expensive than the supposedly
hand-made Asian ones.
Getting back to the original discussion, If you're building a piano to
last 100 years or more, build it out of the proper high-quality woods
in the proper manner using proper joinery. If you're only building
something that will be recycled after a relatively short time make it
from materials which won't waste precious resources.
While I have occasionally called some pianos a "waste of good wood" I
have never said a piano (or PSO) was a waste of good chipboard and
ABS...
>looking forward to the next few days
I hope I wasn't too wordy. <g> NEXT!
John
John Musselwhite Calgary, Alberta
mus...@cadvision.com Canada
http://www.cadvision.com/Home_Pages/accounts/musselj/ringing.html
Alec Weil
Gary Coombs wrote:
>
> I asked my tuner /technician what he thought of Kawai's ABS Styran jacks.
> He replied that he was impressed. He put a Steinway wooden jack and a
> Kawai ABS Styran jack in a vice. He applied pressure. The wooden jack
> snapped under low pressure. The ABS Styran jack witheld an extreme amount
> of pressure. He then told me that one of the real problems with wood was
> that it absorbed moisture and would swell and contract with the
> summer/winter cycle in a typical home. This summer/winter humidity change
> causes most of the problems we find in pianos. He stated that to
> circumvent the mechanical stresses that a wooden jack has with a material
> that is stronger and doesn't swell and contract with humidity made sense.
> In short, he has found no problems with ABS Styran jacks and has found many
> problems with wooden jacks.
>
In response, a few personal thoughts about wood and plastic in piano actions:
A well-constructed, all-wooden action can be regularly played for 100 years with no
problems. There are plenty of examples on hand. Thus, the durability of wood as a piano
action material is proven. You can, however, play a piano for 100 years, take out the
action, put it in a vise and destroy it in a second. Doesn't prove anything though.
ABS is an engineering plastic which is basically insensitive to changes in relative
humidity. Problems can, however, occur when such a humidity-insensitive material is
combined in a piano action with humidity-sensitive wood. An all-wood action expands and
contracts in unison, but if one plastic part is added to the mechanical system, you end
up with an action that is _more_ sensitive to humidity changes than a 100% wooden
action.
So, like it or not, plastic is used in piano actions to reduce costs, period. There is
no reason, however, why engineering plastics could not someday be used to produce a high
quality, 100% plastic action, using playability and not production costs as a criterium.
Unfortunately, it has not yet been produced and will probably never be. The development
costs would be high, and it is probable that the resulting action would have a different
"feel" from a traditional action, thus making it unlikely to be accepted by the piano
community.
In short, all quality pianos have 100% wooden actions, and this will probably never
change.
AW
-Chen,J.L.
In article <50u5vo$g...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote:
>Any other techs out there feel the same way about this?? I know Don has
>been jumping up and down on keybeds at the factory but how about the
>others? Any of you techs worked on a fairly recent CX? Impressions?
>
>dave
I am no tech but just a piano lover and player. I used to own a Kawai NS-20A
upright, so you know I like Kawai's in general. A few months ago I went to my
Kawai dealer to help a friend (and his wife) to buy their first piano.
They wanted to buy the new CX-5H. After me and my daughter played a bit on
this piano, I have to say this is the worst Kawai I have ever encountered.
The keys are too short to give a uniform touch and the bass section and
tenor section sound like from two pianos, very uneven. However, even after
I mentioned these major flaws to my frieds and recommended they should buy
the higher line Kawai's or a Yamaha P22, they still went ahead and bought
this piano. Reason ? They love the black shining finish and the furniture
style, and it is the only piano model in their price range has the polish
ebony with Europen style cabinet. So I guess CX-5H may not be a good piano
but as a furniture it sells!
Julian
DZappa
In article <510hlv$43...@elmo.cadvision.com>, mus...@cadvision.com (John
Musselwhite) writes:
>MOST TEXT DELETED
>, If you're building a piano to
>last 100 years or more, build it out of the proper high-quality woods
>in the proper manner using proper joinery. If you're only building
>something that will be recycled after a relatively short time make it
>from materials which won't waste precious resources.
John, In many ways you and I have similar views of Asian pianos. Although
I really can't say Asian pianos are built to go the warranty period and
not much longer, I do agree that more "traditional" methods and high
quality materials naturally will make a piano last longer. Your
recyclable materials view is an interesting twist to this saga.
You seem to be of the view that the pianos using steel keybeds and ABS
aren't designed to go the "long haul". This was my whole purpose of
continuing this thread (although we should rename it something like "How
should a Piano be built?") These pianos won't last a century (50 yrs
probably, but not 100). No Yamaha or Kawai is built as good as a
Steinway. BTW - Boston, is it a Kawai or a Steinway? Answer: It's a
Kawai with a Steinway design, but it's still a Kawai. Think your Boston
will last till your great-grandkids take lessons? Doubtful.
I wish everyone who bought a piano bought a Steinway/Baldwin/Walters/High
dollar German type piano. But the reality is John Q Pianobuyer isn't
going to lay out 6K for little Suzie's practice piano. That is why the
Asians got such a strong hold on the US piano market (although may I
inject here that Baldwin outsells every other Asian piano combined 2 to
1).
dave
Rosch
In article <510hlv$43...@elmo.cadvision.com>, mus...@cadvision.com (John Musselwhite) says:
>
>dza...@aol.com (DZappa) wrote:
>
Dear John, great article. This must be older correspondance by its origins.
Josef and I really enjoyed it. albeit, there are other great makes: Knabe,
Chickering etc... By the way, we just attended the inauguration of a new
'debutante', a rosewood Steinway A from 1876. We restored it entirely in
May, June, soundboard and all. It came to just over half the price of a new
one. Too bad its too late for you to see it...Check out
http://www.goldguide.com/pianos-by-rosch
Steven Abrams
"Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> I suggest you boys take a look at what is really happening in the
> marketplace. Look at what has happened with cameras. The Asians
> make the best cameras and the best optics.
Like those Asian optical behemoths Hassleblatt and Zeiss.
> Take a look at automobiles. same thing.
Mercedes-Benz. BMW. Saab. Cadillac. Uh-huh. All Asians. Compared
to the Hyundai. Whatever you say. I'll take a Ford Taurus over a
Hyundai, thankyouverymuch. OK, so I exaggerated, but comparing apples
and apples, the Taurus SHO is every bit the car as anything comprable
by Nissan, Honda, or Toyota. Seems to me that the Americans are
doing very well in the auto department these days. Or are you stuck
in the early 1980's?
> Take a look at electronics. ditto.
The "Asians" only have market cornered on mass-produced consumer
electronics and TVs; there's quite a bit of American and European-made
high-quality not-for-the-masses stuff. Much better than anything with
a Panasonic or Aiwa tag on it.
> It
> wasn't always that way. The USA is a country that no longer takes
> pride in tradition and workmanship. It is now strictly the bottom
> line.
See all above examples debunked. QED.
> You boys continue deluding yourselves with your mystique and
> tradition. But let's face it, how many times can Steinway be sold
> before the tradition is completely gone?
What has one thing got to do with the other? Mason & Hamlin, which
has been sold even more often than Steinway, is re-opening their old
factories, using old scale-designs, and old equipment to produce
brand-new pianos, which *should* be of top-notch quality.
Your article has way too many generalities to be understandable.
You'd rather play a 4'9" Samick than a Steinway D? Or were you saying
that if you had around $30,000 to spend on a piano, you'd rather put a
C3 upstairs and a C2 downstairs rather than buy single Steinway M? Or
what?!?
> I'm going to go make music on my choice of pianos. Gary
As you should. Just realize that your choice may differ from other
people's choices.
~~~Steve
--
Steven Abrams abr...@cs.columbia.edu
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
-Lennon/McCartney
Gary Coombs
I suggest you boys take a look at what is really happening in the marketplace.
Look at what has happened with cameras. The Asians make the best cameras and
electronics. ditto. It wasn't always that way. The USA is a country that no
longer takes pride in tradition and workmanship. It is now strictly the bottom
pride of workmanship to take their place. Without that I'm afraid there isn't
much left. You can fall back on a name for only so long. It's only a matter
of time.
Anyone with an eye at all can see the sloppy workmanship in today's Steinway.
Look underneath a Steinway and look at the splinters of wood hanging off and
the crayon and pencil markings. It looks like the bottom of a packing crate.
Then look at the workmanship of an Asian piano. The difference is not subtle.
Look at the harp. The sloppy hand painting on a Steinway looks childish and
pathetic. The places where you can see the grinder marks. The places where
they didn't even bother to smooth out the jagged edges. Then look at the
precision markings and precision workmanship of an Asian piano. Boys, the
difference is night and day. You can brag about hand made all you want but it
looks "home made". If that is the care they take with what you can see, what
are they doing with what you can't see?
You boys continue deluding yourselves with your mystique and tradition. But
let's face it, how many times can Steinway be sold before the tradition is
completely gone?
I'm going to go make music on my choice of pianos.
Gary
DZappa
In article <01bb9f84$dc8abd40$0100a8c0@gary>, "Gary Coombs"
<coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>Look at what has happened with cameras. The Asians make the best cameras
and the best optics. Take a look at automobiles. same thing. Take a look
at
>electronics. ditto. It wasn't always that way. The USA is a country
that
>no longer takes pride in tradition and workmanship. It is now strictly
the
>bottom line. The old piano craftsmen are dying at Steinway and Baldwin.
There is
>no pride of workmanship to take their place.
Asians make the best cameras? Funny, when I dropped my Canon the plastic
body exploded like a light bulb. My Pentax however could be hit by a Mack
truck and only come out with a scratch. CARS??? Gary, where have you
been? In the late 70's the Asians made better cars than the Americans,
but you know what? WE MADE BETTER CARS as a result. In the meantime
Honda, Nissan, Toyota and others made SIGNIFICANT investments in US
manufacturing. I'm sure they don't feel the US worker has lost their
"pride of workmanship". As far as electronics, I would rather have a
Bang&Olefson or Bose than a Sony anyday. Most of the electronics built
overseas today is built in Taiwan, Indonesia and other "third-world"
countries, not Japan & Korea. Those countries workforce takes pride in
their work because they are HUNGRY. The corporate honchos pay them a few
bucks a day and they live in around raw sewage. Now tell me who the
"bottom line" matters to.
I think saying the USA is a country who's workers no longer take pride in
their work is a insult to all of us. I take great pride in what I do, as
does EVERY person I've ever been associated with in the manufacturer's end
of our business. (Wait, I take that back, my YAMAHA rep is pitiful, even
tho he is a caucasion . I hate ORDER TAKERS.) Your comment that "it's
strictly the bottom line" strikes a chord with me. Manufacturers bottom
line is staying liquid and turning a profit. To do that in todays
marketplace you must constantly move forward. Product R&D at Baldwin is
at an all time high. I personally know Baldwin's VP of Manufacturing and
his primary goal is producing consistant high quality products using the
best materials and workmanship available. You obviously haven't visited
the Baldwin factory in some time. Craftsmanship is alive and well there.
Call anyone in Conway, Ark that works at the plant and ask them if they
have "no pride of workmanship". Aeolian is a primary example of a company
that sacrificed quality for the bottom line, and look where they aren't
now. Explain why Baldwin is the largest selling piano in the USA if they
have no pride in their product.
>>Look at the harp. The sloppy hand painting on a Steinway looks childish
and
pathetic. The places where you can see the grinder marks. The places
where
they didn't even bother to smooth out the jagged edges. Then look at the
precision markings and precision workmanship of an Asian piano.<<
Gary - just because the V-Pro plate the Asian pianos employ comes out much
smoother and shines better than a sand cast plate doesn't mean it's a
better piano. I can't speak for Steinway because I don't sell them, but
the Baldwin plates I see are finished and look just fine. There's no
pencil marks and "splinters of wood" hanging off the bottom of any Baldwin
I've ever seen.
>>You boys continue deluding yourselves with your mystique and tradition.
But
let's face it, how many times can Steinway be sold before the tradition is
completely gone?
I'm going to go make music on my choice of pianos.<<
Gary it is you who are deluded if you think that Asian manufacturing
companies (and I'm not talking just pianos here) are committed to nothing
but quality, price be damned. Your views are rooted firmly in the late
70's/early 80's when we were being beat by the Japanese. Their labor
force was motivated and productive (not to mention cheap). Guess what?
They get paid a heck of a lot more today than the American workforce which
is why Yamaha, Matsushita, Sony, Canon, et al have moved their
manufacturing to other Asian countries. Same thing has happened in the US
with all the companies moving jobs to Mexico.
AND NOW FOR A PAID POLITICAL ANNOUNCEMENT................
NAFTA was a mistake. Our government is PAYING American companies to move
jobs across the border to Mexico where they can pay $5/ day and keep the
Mexican population impoverished while lining their own and their
stockholders pockets. It's happened right under our noses and we've done
NOTHING to stop it. Blame Washington and the Dept. of Commerce, and blame
the Democrats and Republicans. Vote Libretarian or Reform. This country
needs another party to shake things up and REPRESENT THE PEOPLE, not the
CEO's.
Sorry, but this struck a nerve with me.
dave
Gary Coombs
: Asians make the best cameras? Funny, when I dropped my Canon the plastic
: body exploded like a light bulb. My Pentax however could be hit by a
Mack
: truck and only come out with a scratch.
Funny that you should own a Japanese camera in the first place? :)
Anyway,
the most used pro camera in the world is the Nikon. I believe it is made
in Japan.
CARS??? Gary, where have you
: been? In the late 70's the Asians made better cars than the Americans,
: but you know what? WE MADE BETTER CARS as a result.
We did learn to make better cars. We had to, we had lost much of our
business to Japan. In my opinion we never have made a car that really
competes with the precision of Japanese workmanship. I've tried very hard
to buy American cars and always end up with a Japanese car. There must be
a reason that Japanese cars still outsell ours.
: In the meantime
: Honda, Nissan, Toyota and others made SIGNIFICANT investments in US
: manufacturing.
No, they BUILT their OWN manufacturing facilities here and trained our
workman in Japanese manufacturing methods using Japanese tooling and
Japanese designs.
You know we could pick apart each other's comments for weeks and all we
would do is throw mud about and accomplish very little. All I'm really
saying is that the workmanship in an Asian piano is far superior to an
American piano. Unless you are blind, you cannot deny that simple
statement.
My point, and the real bottom line, is that I'm simply disappointed in the
workmanship of pianos built in this country. I like the way a Steinway
sounds. I just don't like the way they look upon closer examination.
Gary
Alec Norton
>
> Asians make the best cameras? Funny, when I dropped my Canon the plastic
> body exploded like a light bulb. My Pentax however could be hit by a Mack
> truck and only come out with a scratch.
Dave,
Pentax is Japanese. Sorry.
Alec
DZappa
In article <01bba021$d3c52c20$9394...@gary.coombs.sciatl.com>, "Gary
Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> All I'm really
>saying is that the workmanship in an Asian piano is far superior to an
>American piano.
Gary, I agree that we could throw this around day after day without
getting anywhere. But this above blanket statement is just too general to
be true. And I'm sorry, but I also disagree with your views on the
American workforce (and I'm not even Union!)
best regards
dave
Gary Coombs
DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote in article <517sk5$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
OK. I'll try repeating specifics one more time. By lack of workmanship I mean
looking at the soundboard and seeing brush marks and an embedded brush hair.
Looking at the harp and seeing grinder marks and sharp pieces of metal sticking
up. Looking at the black paint on the lettering on the harp and seeing wavy
edges that would bug me every time I would look at them. Looking at the piano
hinges and seeing black paint edging in to the hinge itself. Looking at the
underside and finding it rough and unfinished. I know these things don't
effect the sound and they don't effect the playability, but darn it Dave, as a
consumer of a Steinway B that would cost me almost forty thousand dollars, I
think I should expect workmanship that would at least come close to a Japanese
piano. That is all I am trying to say. Can you actually say you consider the
above fine workmanship and there is nothing wrong with it? I'm sorry Dave, but
I guess we will have to agree to disagree about what workmanship consists of.
Gary (Who looked it up and found a Pentax IS a Japanese camera. :) :) )
Donald E. Mannino
Alec Weil <alec...@iac.co.jp> wrote in article
<3234F7...@iac.co.jp>...
> A well-constructed, all-wooden action can be regularly played for 100
years with no
> problems.
No problems? That's a pretty strong claim there, Alec. You mean the parts
never come loose? You mean the regulation doesn't go out? You mean action
centers never need service? No jacks breaking at the glue joint? No hammers
coming loose? No balancier posts coming loose from the whippen? No damper
flanges glued to a wood damper rail popping off? Any technicians who
service high quality older grands are intimately familiar with these kinds
of problems, and you have established the whole tone of your message with
such an inaccurate statement.
How much less maintenance would the action have needed had it been made of
ABS? And who can say if the wood action would be in better condition than
the ABS? Yet it is easily demonstrated that even in a few short years the
ABS has clear advantages over the wood in many parts of the piano action -
it is stronger, lighter, more accurate and more stable than the equivalent
maple parts.
> ABS is an engineering plastic which is basically insensitive to changes
in relative
> humidity. Problems can, however, occur when such a humidity-insensitive
material is
> combined in a piano action with humidity-sensitive wood. An all-wood
action expands and
> contracts in unison . . . .
This is not in the least bit true, and is a typical argument used on the
sales floor on the unsuspecting piano buyer who is not familiar with the
basic concepts of wood technology. It is an argument that assumes the
action designers using ABS are stupid and don't understand the properties
of the materials they are using. Making such an assumption is a foolish
thing to do.
When you glue together a jack out of 2 pieces of wood (the "traditional"
way these small parts are made by most quality wood action builders), the
grain orientation of the two pieces of wood are no longer aligned with each
other, and there is a good chance of failure of the glue joint because of
the dissimilar movement of the two wood pieces during environmental
changes. They may all be swelling and shrinking at the same time, but not
at all in the same directions! Not my idea of working in unison!
If you work with old grand pianos you know that actions with excessive
aftertouch are prone to breaking jacks, because the glue joints in the
jacks are no longer strong enough to handle the stress the poor regulation
is putting on them. New wood jacks do not fail so easily, which is clear
evidence contrary to what you wrote above. An ABS or similar jack will
never fail in this way. Weak jacks in old rebuildable pianos are one of
the many reasons the old parts are usually thrown out and replaced when a
piano is rebuilt. In another 100 years technicians will be replacing worn
cloths, felts and skins on the ABS actions rather than throwing out all the
parts.
If a wood hammer shank is attached via the center pin and cloth bushing to
an ABS flange, there is no conflict between the dissimilar materials. If a
wood shank is glued into an ABS hammer butt, the hole in the hammer butt
does not open and close from moisture changes as it would with wood, so
this glue joint lasts longer than one with all wood, where the different
grain orientations cause the wood to move in different directions with
humidity changes.
> So, like it or not, plastic is used in piano actions to reduce costs,
period.
I think the error of this statement is pretty obvious. Your statement is
an effort to imply that, because costs are slightly lower, then the
material must be inferior. Not very good logic these days.
The ABS material results in action parts that are more accurate and more
stable, stronger, lighter (for better response from the action) and longer
lasting. There happens to be an added bonus of slightly lower production
costs than milling away large amounts of wood to make small action parts,
plus the accuracy and consistency allows easier regulation in the factory.
This is a type of win-win situation where all benefit.
Perhaps some companies are not willing to invest in the necessary research
to convert their piano actions to the new materials. Tradition has its
place, but rejecting new technologies merely because of tradition is a
dangerous path for a company or an industry to follow, at least if it wants
to survive.
Alec Weil
As my previous post was strongly attacked by Don Mannino, let's go through the points
one at a time:
> > A well-constructed, all-wooden action can be regularly played for 100
> >years with no problems.
> No problems? That's a pretty strong claim there, Alec. (snip)
I think we all agree that "no problems" can be read as "no problems, assuming proper
care and maintenance". That being said, I am currently rebuilding a 1910 Steinway. Even
though a mere 86 years old, the action requires nothing more than new hammer heads --
all the rest remains original, and in great shape.
> How much less maintenance would the action have needed had it been made of
> ABS? And who can say if the wood action would be in better condition than
> the ABS? (snip)
I have no comments concerning the durability of ABS actions. My comment was merely that
high quality wooden actions have proven their durability.
> Yet it is easily demonstrated that even in a few short years the
> ABS has clear advantages over the wood in many parts of the piano action -
> it is stronger, lighter, more accurate and more stable than the equivalent
> maple parts.
If there are advantages from the point of view of the pianist, top of the line pianos,
would use ABS (but more on that in a moment....).
> > ABS is an engineering plastic which is basically insensitive to changes
> > in relative humidity. Problems can, however, occur when such a humidity-insensitive
> > material is combined in a piano action with humidity-sensitive wood. An all-wood
> > action expands and contracts in unison . . . .
> This is not in the least bit true, and is a typical argument used on the
> sales floor on the unsuspecting piano buyer who is not familiar with the
> basic concepts of wood technology. It is an argument that assumes the
> action designers using ABS are stupid and don't understand the properties
> of the materials they are using. Making such an assumption is a foolish
> thing to do.
An ad hominem attack avoids issue I raised, and I assume no foolishness on the part of
action designers employing ABS. I am, however, certain that most pianos are manufactured
under certain cost restraints that encourage the use of plastic parts in actions. My
point is simple:
1) The coefficient of expansion of wood when exposed to changes in humidity or
temperature far exceeds that of ABS.
2) In a piano action, if one moving part does not share the same coefficient of
expansion of its connected components, this will lead to changes in piano action, should
changes in humidity/temperature occur.
3) A piano is not built for "all-weather use", rather for operation in a narrow range.
Within that range, it has been my experience that the consistency of a high-quality
all-wood action exceeds that of one employing plastic parts.
This has also been the experience of a great many pianists.
> When you glue together a jack out of 2 pieces of wood (the "traditional"
> way these small parts are made by most quality wood action builders), the
> grain orientation of the two pieces of wood are no longer aligned with each
> other, and there is a good chance of failure of the glue joint because of
> the dissimilar movement of the two wood pieces during environmental
> changes. (snip)
Once again, I had in mind high quality pianos, properly maintained. I agree completely
that ABS will be more durable under unusual conditions. However, if you are a _pianist_,
you will not willingly submit your instrument to such conditions.
Thus I am quite willing to accept, for instance, that a plastic action is better suited
for an inexpensive piano; for a family who will not give the piano good care. This was
not the point I was originally discussing however.
> > So, like it or not, plastic is used in piano actions to reduce costs, period.
> I think the error of this statement is pretty obvious. Your statement is
> an effort to imply that, because costs are slightly lower, then the
> material must be inferior. Not very good logic these days.
>
> The ABS material results in action parts that are more accurate and more
> stable, stronger, lighter (for better response from the action) and longer
> lasting.......
>
> Perhaps some companies are not willing to invest in the necessary research
> to convert their piano actions to the new materials. Tradition has its
> place, but rejecting new technologies merely because of tradition is a
> dangerous path for a company or an industry to follow, at least if it wants
> to survive.
>
> Don Mannino RPT, Manager
> Kawai Piano Technical Support
Earlier, I called up Kawai headquarters to ask about the actions currently used in their
top-of-the line EX concert grand. Surprise, surprise: the only plastic to be found in
that action is the whippen flange. All the rest -- including the jack -- is made of
wood. Thus, if Don's company, which has invested so much in plastic actions will not
use them in their flagship instrument, what does this tell you?
Please understand -- I am all for research and development into piano actions. There is
still much more to be done. Although I have yet to play a superior action to an
all-wood action, when a superior product is built, I will be delighted to acknowledge
it.
AW
-Chen,J.L.
In article <01bba021$d3c52c20$9394...@gary.coombs.sciatl.com>,
Gary Coombs <coo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>My point, and the real bottom line, is that I'm simply disappointed in the
>workmanship of pianos built in this country. I like the way a Steinway
>sounds. I just don't like the way they look upon closer examination.
>
>Gary
Gary :
I noticed the "Bottom" side of my Steinway has some rough part that is
less than desirable from a pure furiture point of view. However, just
as you have noticed, it is the sound of the Steinway that really makes
Steinway stands apart from other makers. I will wish Steinway pay a little
more attention and make it looks better but it is really not noticable
unless you get under the piano. It is not a big deal to me and it has
a very very small weight in my mind when I select my piano. To me, the
tone, action and long term durability are much much more important when
I want to select a piano.
Since I do woodworking as a hobby, I know it is very easy to correct the
problem : I believe I can use a smooth sander to make the bottom as clean
as anyone may desire in a few hours (and paint it black after that). But
just as I said it is really not a big deal and I would rather to spend the
few hours on to other side of the piano, that is to play and enjoy it!
Julian
ScttPKssr
> A well-constructed, all-wooden action can be regularly played for 100
years with no
> problems.
<<No problems? That's a pretty strong claim there, Alec. You mean the
parts
never come loose? You mean the regulation doesn't go out? You mean action
centers never need service? No jacks breaking at the glue joint? No
hammers
coming loose? No balancier posts coming loose from the whippen? No damper
flanges glued to a wood damper rail popping off? Any technicians who
service high quality older grands are intimately familiar with these kinds
of problems, and you have established the whole tone of your message with
such an inaccurate statement.>> etc., etc.
I have worked on Kawai pianos for over 25 years and although I do not
remember just when plastic parts were introduced (I would guess 20 years
ago), I have had surprisingly little trouble with them. Of course,
nothing is ever ideal, the trouble that I have experienced is mainly the
wood shank to plastic joint often comes loose. Kawai catchers on uprights
are always comming loose and clicking. I have never felt much confidence
in regluing them (i.e. the strength of the resulting glue joint). I do
not believe that we will ever see plastic shanks, but who knows?
I still feel more comfortable with maple action parts, I always wonder
and hope that plastic parts (especially of a specialized design) will
always be available for repairs in the future. I do not have confidence
that large companies will maintain old designs for us (repair people) and
smaller companies are more likely to go out of business leaving us with no
source of proper replacement parts. Then we will have to make or modify
an existing wood part to replace it. To imply that we will never need to
make such replacements is foolish, I just had a situation where a student
ripped out about 45 hammers out of a Kawai upright, and I was very happy
to be able to replace flanges and hammer butts with the exact
replacements. None the less, they are here to stay! ScottPK
ScttPKssr
<<Earlier, I called up Kawai headquarters to ask about the actions
currently used in their
top-of-the line EX concert grand. Surprise, surprise: the only plastic to
be found in
that action is the whippen flange. All the rest -- including the jack --
is made of
wood. Thus, if Don's company, which has invested so much in plastic
actions will not
I think I could answer for Don M. -- These are marketing decisions and do
not really have anything to do with the quality of the instrument or the
confidence that the manufacturer has or does not have in the product.
There is still a lot of badmouthing of plastic brought on by salespeople
(the competition-informed or otherwise) and results in Kawai's reluctance
to go ahead and install them in the high end products. To me, plastic
parts have proven themselves. I do not think any pianist can pass the
blindfold test.....that is "feel" plastic as opposed to wood. The only
issue here is the longevity of life of the plastic partsas opposed to
wood. Its humourous to me to hear of all the silly little arguements to
prove that something is good or not. -- Like "NASA uses these parts" or
I remember one-where Wurlitzer dealers had their hammers soaking in a fish
bowl to prove that they were superior to others. No one is going to
take their piano to outer space and no one is going to soak their hammers
in a bucket of water. They have nothing to do with weather a part or
piano is good or bad. This is known as HYPE and is irrevelant.
ScottPK
A440A
Gary Coombs writes;
" All I'm really
saying is that the workmanship in an Asian piano is far superior to an
American piano. Unless you are blind, you cannot deny that simple
statement. "
"My point, and the real bottom line, is that I'm simply disappointed in
the workmanship of pianos built in this country. I like the way a
Steinway sounds. I just don't like the way they look upon closer
examination."
-----------------------------
Greetings, I got this $.02 right here...............
There is a fundamental difference between the Steinway and Yamaha
pianos. The Yamahas seem to be designed to be built by machines, If I am
not mistaken, they are one of the most highly automated musical instrument
makers around. They produce a level of consistancy that I have not seen
surpassed. In the process, the rough edges have been engineered out of
existance.
In contrast, Steinways have traditionally been more hand built, from
the gang of men that carry the case laminations to the press and tighten
the cauls by hand, to the action and damper department, where craftsmen
decides upon the shims and dimensions needed to make that particular
action set-up feel and play like a Steinway. Managing the cumulative
error in such a labor intensive process produces instruments that are both
unique and instantly recognizable,(no small feat!)
The Asian piano may have a perfect finish on the board, and a
beautiful job of casting on the plate, but is the case made of maple ?
Is the trapwork a bunch of pressed metal hinges, or solid maple blocks for
the levers? There may be a lot more differences in American pianos and
Asian pianos than are visible to the eye.
The hair in the soundboard finish is inexcusable, but not
important , and Steinway, I think, is perhaps putting their resources
into the tonal esthetic first, cosmetic second.
Regards to all,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tn.
Steven Abrams
"Donald E. Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> The ABS material results in action parts that are more accurate and more
> stable, stronger, lighter (for better response from the action) and longer
> costs than milling away large amounts of wood to make small action parts,
> plus the accuracy and consistency allows easier regulation in the factory.
> This is a type of win-win situation where all benefit.
Don,
Is the ABS material used in the actions in Kawai concert grands?
Don Mannino
> Don,
>
> Is the ABS material used in the actions in Kawai concert grands?
>
> ~~~Steve
>
Yes, the GS-100 concert grand has many ABS parts and the black jack, and
the EX also has the black jack and some ABS.
Don
Don Mannino
Alec Wiel wrote,
> Earlier, I called up Kawai headquarters to ask about the actions
currently used in their
> top-of-the line EX concert grand. Surprise, surprise: the only plastic to
be found in
> that action is the whippen flange. All the rest -- including the jack --
is made of
> wood. Thus, if Don's company, which has invested so much in plastic
actions will not
> use them in their flagship instrument, what does this tell you?
The EX concert grands now use some ABS and have the black jack. The people
in that department have full autonomy in the choice of materials for the
pianos, and they are similarly conservative like most of the piano
industry. The limited production EX and RX-A models were changed from wood
jacks to the black jacks earlier this year. Sorry if the person you talked
to here in the office was misinformed.
Please do not take my message as any more of an attack than yours was upon
ABS. My message was merely a point - by - point rebuttal, correcting some
misconceptions in your original post.
Environmental extremes are not required for swelling and shrinking of wood
to take place. Although wood has served reasonably well over the years
under good conditions as you stated, this does not justify an argument that
it is trouble free. I listed some of the common areas of failure in my
previous post.
Although tastes will always vary amongst pianists, Kawai grand actions have
achieved a very good reputation for the quality of their touch. Each of us
has a preference, of course, but this is not a valid argument against the
materials used, only the design employed by the manufacturer.
Gary Coombs
-Chen,J.L. <ch...@ihgp3.ih.att.com> wrote in article
<51951p$a...@nntpb.cb.lucent.com>...
: In article <01bba021$d3c52c20$9394...@gary.coombs.sciatl.com>,
: Gary Coombs <coo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: >My point, and the real bottom line, is that I'm simply disappointed in
the
: >workmanship of pianos built in this country. I like the way a Steinway
: >sounds. I just don't like the way they look upon closer examination.
: >
: >Gary
:
: Gary :
:
: I noticed the "Bottom" side of my Steinway has some rough part that is
: less than desirable from a pure furiture point of view.
I wonder what would happen if you were to complain and ask for it to be
fixed under warranty? I'm sure the warranty covers problems due to
faulty workmanship.
: However, just
: as you have noticed, it is the sound of the Steinway that really makes
: Steinway stands apart from other makers. I will wish Steinway pay a
little
: more attention and make it looks better but it is really not noticable
: unless you get under the piano. It is not a big deal to me and it has
: a very very small weight in my mind when I select my piano. To me, the
: tone, action and long term durability are much much more important when
: I want to select a piano.
:
: Since I do woodworking as a hobby, I know it is very easy to correct the
: problem :
For the investment a Steinway requires, I would expect them to never
have the probem in the first place. Especially if it is easily
correctable.
: I believe I can use a smooth sander to make the bottom as clean
: as anyone may desire in a few hours (and paint it black after that). But
: just as I said it is really not a big deal and I would rather to spend
the
: few hours on to other side of the piano, that is to play and enjoy it!
No one paints the bottom of their piano, but they do take a little time
and pay attention to detail and make it look good. If I were you I would
ask them to fix the cosmetics under warranty.
I play may teacher's B every week at my lesson. I know how you
feel about the sound of your B ! :)
Enjoy!
Mike Imbler
engineer, I like new technology as much as the next guy, and have used plastics
in new applications (sometimes successfully). I appreciate Kawai doing the R&D,
but I agree with the folks writing in saying only time will tell. Accelerated
time testing gives indicators, but is not totally reliable. The respondent
concerned about future parts availability also had an excellent point.
As for the slight against the Americans being resistant to change, I believe Steinway
has more important patents than any off-shore competitor - one of them being their
ill-fated foray into plastics (teflon buttons).
ABS is a very difficult material to glue, and although it is a very inert material
a lot of engineers have been surprised by their space age miracle plastic's
unforeseen reaction to a solvent/lubricant/finish/uv/heat/whatever.
For the investment I have in my Steinway B, I'm glad it has a wood action.
Regards,
Mike
Don Mannino
Mike Imbler <MIKE-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<51a5k5$6...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> As for the slight against the Americans being resistant to change, I
believe Steinway
> has more important patents than any off-shore competitor - one of them
being their
> ill-fated foray into plastics (teflon buttons).
Yes, I thought about mentioning the teflon. Please don't read into anything
I said that I am critical of American companies - there are many companies
in all countries who are holding back on new materials, and there are also
piano makers in the U.S. who are using some plastics in their actions. It
is my personal opinion, knowing a little about the Steinway family and
their amazing impact on the development of the modern piano, that Theodore
Steinway would have been at the forefront of ABS research had it been
available to him. This is only personal speculation, of course, so it's
not worth anything when discussing the merits of the material.
> ABS is a very difficult material to glue, and although it is a very inert
material
> a lot of engineers have been surprised by their space age miracle
plastic's
> unforeseen reaction to a solvent/lubricant/finish/uv/heat/whatever.
Yes, you are very correct about the difficulty of gluing. In the grands
there are no plastic - to - wood glue joints, but in the vertical actions
there are, and the glue used is important. UV and normal heat levels have
been thoroughly tested and found to be harmless to ABS. Some oils and
solvents could weaken the material, but these are not materials which
people should be putting into piano actions anyway, whether wood or ABS.
> For the investment I have in my Steinway B, I'm glad it has a wood
action.
And I'm sure your piano will serve very well for your entire life, and
perhaps the lives of your children as well, as would many of the
instruments available today. A good Steinway B can be a wonderful
instrument, and you are fortunate to have one.
Don Mannino RPT
Steven Abrams
"Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> I wonder what would happen if you were to complain and ask for it to be
> fixed under warranty? I'm sure the warranty covers problems due to
> faulty workmanship.
Define "faulty" -- cosmetics on the underside don't count, and there
is nothing broken or faulty. I doubt that they'd do that.
Gary Coombs
Steven Abrams <abr...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in article
<y8siv9j...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu>...
> "Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> > I wonder what would happen if you were to complain and ask for it to be
> > fixed under warranty? I'm sure the warranty covers problems due to
> > faulty workmanship.
>
> Define "faulty" -- cosmetics on the underside don't count, and there
> is nothing broken or faulty. I doubt that they'd do that.
Knowing Steinway, you are probably right.
--
Gary
Coo...@MindSpring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~coombs
Richard m
> "Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
> My point, and the real bottom line, is that I'm simply disappointed in
the
> workmanship of pianos built in this country. I like the way a Steinway
> sounds. I just don't like the way they look upon closer examination.
>
> Gary
I agree. And then play one for ten minutes and see how your arms feel.
But if you want a new Steinway to be the way you want it to be and you
could find one better, don't they still make 'em in Hamburg??
Richard Moody Tuner Technician
DZappa
In article <01bba05c$06bcea20$0100a8c0@gary>, "Gary Coombs"
<coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>OK. I'll try repeating specifics one more time. By lack of workmanship
I
>mean
>looking at the soundboard and seeing brush marks and an embedded brush
hair.
>Looking at the harp and seeing grinder marks and sharp pieces of metal
>sticking
>up. Looking at the black paint on the lettering on the harp and seeing
wavy
>edges that would bug me every time I would look at them. Looking at the
>piano
>hinges and seeing black paint edging in to the hinge itself. Looking at
the
>underside and finding it rough and unfinished. I know these things don't
>effect the sound and they don't effect the playability, but darn it Dave,
as
>a
>consumer of a Steinway B that would cost me almost forty thousand
dollars, I
>think I should expect workmanship that would at least come close to a
>Japanese
>piano.
Gary:
Well, I am not a Steinway dealer so I can't speak to the "finish" of their
product. I am a Baldwin/Yamaha dealer and the "problems" you are not
present on anything I've seen recently. Maybe Steinway should get their
standards up to Baldwin if ALL their pianos are coming out looking as you
describe, which I tend to doubt. Maybe our resident Steinway guy can shed
some light on this issue? Bob?
regards
dave
DZappa
In article <01bba05f$fcb3ce00$8c55...@cis.compuserve.com>, "Donald E.
Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> If a
wood shank is glued into an ABS hammer butt, the hole in the hammer butt
does not open and close from moisture changes as it would with wood, so
this glue joint lasts longer than one with all wood, where the different
grain orientations cause the wood to move in different directions with
humidity changes.<<
This does bring up one point I'd like to make. So if you're gluing a wood
hammer shank into an ABS hammer butt, do you use PLASTIC epoxy or WOOD
epoxy?? Seems to me that in a situation where glues are being used the
best possible scenerio would be to use wood glue on WOOD to WOOD joints or
plastic epoxy on ABS to ABS joints.
Also, the ABS hammer butt may not change with temp and humidity changes,
but the wood sure will. What kind of longevity in the glue joint can you
expect when one material is NEVER changing and the other is CONSTANTLY
changing.
I think Alec had a very valid point in his post when he asked if ABS is so
great, why isn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE of the action made out of it?? Seems
to me then you'd have the ULTIMATE servicable action, no?
regards
dave
DZappa
In article <5198qp$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sctt...@aol.com
(ScttPKssr) writes:
>There is still a lot of badmouthing of plastic brought on by salespeople
>(the competition-informed or otherwise) and results in Kawai's
reluctance
>to go ahead and install them in the high end products.
Scott:
This is weak logic. If Kawai is basing their decisions on piano design on
badmouthing by the competition they need a lesson in "Design Quality 101".
I think Kawai uses all wood in the high end stuff because of little
problems you described early in your post ie: the incompatability of wood
and ABS glue joints.
>>Its humourous to me to hear of all the silly little arguements to
prove that something is good or not. -- Like "NASA uses these parts" or
I remember one-where Wurlitzer dealers had their hammers soaking in a fish
bowl to prove that they were superior to others. No one is going to
take their piano to outer space and no one is going to soak their hammers
in a bucket of water. They have nothing to do with weather a part or
piano is good or bad. This is known as HYPE and is irrevelant.<<
I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. Buy the piano you like the
tone and touch of from the guy/gal you trust at a reasonable price for all
involved.
dave
Steven Abrams
"Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> Steven Abrams <abr...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in article
> <y8siv9j...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu>...
> > "Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> > > I wonder what would happen if you were to complain and ask for it to be
> > > fixed under warranty? I'm sure the warranty covers problems due to
> > > faulty workmanship.
> >
> > Define "faulty" -- cosmetics on the underside don't count, and there
> > is nothing broken or faulty. I doubt that they'd do that.
>
> Knowing Steinway, you are probably right.
I'm trying to picture Honda fixing, under warranty, an uneven paint
job in the car's undercarriage.
I'm not having much luck.
Steven Abrams
"Don Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> It
> is my personal opinion, knowing a little about the Steinway family and
> their amazing impact on the development of the modern piano, that Theodore
> Steinway would have been at the forefront of ABS research had it been
> available to him.
Interesting that you should mention this, because I was thinking about
this exact thing in regards to this ABS discussion.
Now, I'm neither a piano technician nor a materials specialist, but
from what I know, Theodore Steinway worked with some of the greatest
physicists of the day to improve the acoustics of the piano, and made
significant improvements to the action as well. However, there were
very few (if any?) Steinway Flops until the teflon situation. At
least few that I knew of. That tells me that either he was very
lucky, or very, very careful in deciding what actually got to
production.
So I agree he'd be at the forefront of ABS research, but there is, of
course, no way of knowing if he'd be using the stuff in production
yet.
> This is only personal speculation, of course, so it's
> not worth anything when discussing the merits of the material.
That's true; but it's a lot of fun to speculate!
Gary Coombs
Steven Abrams <abr...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in article
<y8sbufa...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu>...
: "Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
: > Steven Abrams <abr...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in article
: > <y8siv9j...@mahi.cs.columbia.edu>...
: > > "Gary Coombs" <coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
: > > > I wonder what would happen if you were to complain and ask for it
to be
: > > > fixed under warranty? I'm sure the warranty covers problems due
to
: > > > faulty workmanship.
: > >
: > > Define "faulty" -- cosmetics on the underside don't count, and there
: > > is nothing broken or faulty. I doubt that they'd do that.
: >
: > Knowing Steinway, you are probably right.
:
: I'm trying to picture Honda fixing, under warranty, an uneven paint
: job in the car's undercarriage.
:
: I'm not having much luck.
My point exactly! You don't have an uneven paint job in the first place!
That's why I own a Honda Accord EX Coupe.
I'm so pleased you brought up this example !
--
Gary
http://www.mindspring.com/~coombs
Scott Vande Pol
In article <01bba104$d4ed8e60$ca24...@932137621.worldnet.att.net>, "Don
Mannino" <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Mike Imbler <MIKE-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> <51a5k5$6...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> > As for the slight against the Americans being resistant to change, I
> believe Steinway
> > has more important patents than any off-shore competitor - one of them
> being their
> > ill-fated foray into plastics (teflon buttons).
>
> Yes, I thought about mentioning the teflon. Please don't read into anything
> I said that I am critical of American companies - there are many companies
> in all countries who are holding back on new materials, and there are also
> piano makers in the U.S. who are using some plastics in their actions. It
> is my personal opinion, knowing a little about the Steinway family and
> their amazing impact on the development of the modern piano, that Theodore
> Steinway would have been at the forefront of ABS research had it been
> available to him. This is only personal speculation, of course, so it's
> not worth anything when discussing the merits of the material.
>
STUFF DELETED
There are several amusing features to this ongoing discussion:
If a new material of obvious potential superiorty had to prove itself for
50 years before more widespread adoption, there would never be improvement,
and you would still be playing pianos without metal plates.
What person could seriously contend that a wood action will be "trouble
free" for 50 years. Trouble for wood parts over this span of time in our
climate is not a probability, it is a CERTAINTY. Contrast this with the
POSSIBILITY of synthetic materials causing problems over the same period of
time, and the certainty of superior performance in the present.
A piano is a manufactured object. As such the relevant parameters are
design, materials and assembly tolerances. The reverence for "hand build"
pianos as opposed to "manufactured" pianos is irrelevant. It is ironic
that the same people who decry the use of new materials also worship pianos
built in the 1920-30's, a time of great innovation and experimentation in
piano design and fabrication. While we fully expect other manufactured
objects such as cars, airplanes, floor coverings , paint, etc to evolve for
the better, there is an irrational belief that piano design and manufacture
reached its apex over 50 years ago. This might be true, but it need not
be. Perhaps it is the conservatism of piano buyers that is retarding the
progress of the instrument.
--
Scott Vande Pol
Gary Coombs
Scott Vande Pol <s...@pop.cwru.edu> wrote in article
<sbv-1309...@path22304.path.cwru.edu>...
: There are several amusing features to this ongoing discussion:
A voice of reason. Very well said, Scott.
--
Gary Coombs
DZappa
In article <51a5k5$6...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Mike Imbler
<MIKE-...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>ABS is a very difficult material to glue, and although it is a very inert
>material
>a lot of engineers have been surprised by their space age miracle
plastic's
>unforeseen reaction to a solvent/lubricant/finish/uv/heat/whatever.
>
>For the investment I have in my Steinway B, I'm glad it has a wood
action.
Mike:
it's very interesting to see the point of a aerospace engineer in regards
to the use of materials from your field expertise in a piano (which we
like to think is our field of expertise). of course I only say this
because you support my point of view :-)
THANKS!
dave
Gary Coombs
DZappa <dza...@aol.com> wrote in article <51b22g$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> I think Alec had a very valid point in his post when he asked if ABS is so
> great, why isn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE of the action made out of it?? Seems
> to me then you'd have the ULTIMATE servicable action, no?
Dave, can't you just hear the pundits arguing when Steinway first introduced
the advanced technology of a cast iron harp in a wood piano back in the last
century?
"If Steinway is going to put a piece of cast iron on top of the sound board,
then why the heck don't they just make the sound board out of cast iron too???
In fact, if cast iron is so good, why doesn't Steinway just make the whole
piano, EVERY SINGLE PIECE, out of cast iron and have the ULTIMATE piano,
huh???"
<grin>
Makes Alec's "very valid" argument sound kind of silly, doesn't it?
Gary
pdm...@tiac.net
Many of the plastic vs. wood arguments here are surprisingly similar to the
arguments that took place when fiberglass was beginning to supplant wood as
the material of choice for small to medium sized boats. Part of the
analysis is scientific, but part of it has to do with the tendancy of people
to identify more strongly with natural materials, perhaps....
Peter M.
Gary Coombs
Alec Weil <alec...@iac.co.jp> wrote in article <323C3D...@iac.co.jp>...
> That's the "straw man" fallacy in argument. Leather is also a good material
for making
> pianos, but the result is kinda floppy....
>
> How about Dave's question: Why not replace all the moving parts of the action
with ABS?
>
> Another point from an earlier post. The information I reported, that only the
whippen
> flange of the Kawai EX is made of plastic, came from Kawai HQ in Hamamatsu (I
live in
> Japan).
Alec, you missed my point entirely. It was a tongue in cheek parody!
What it really boils down to was distilled in the post a while back that stated
the silliness of thinking that the evolution of piano development reached it's
apex a half century ago in the technology of the day and that there can be no
improvements after that point.
My dad can whip your dad and my piano is better than your piano! :-)
Gary
Alec Weil
That's the "straw man" fallacy in argument. Leather is also a good material for making
pianos, but the result is kinda floppy....
How about Dave's question: Why not replace all the moving parts of the action with ABS?
Another point from an earlier post. The information I reported, that only the whippen
flange of the Kawai EX is made of plastic, came from Kawai HQ in Hamamatsu (I live in
Japan).
AW
Mike Imbler
The difference is that fiberglass was superior to wood in the application
where it was used (in boats which spend time submerged in water). In pianos
plastics have been used with less than
universal success. No knowledgable person will deny that in every
piano application, plastics were introduced as an advancement; and in
many, though not all, instances time did not prove them to truly
be a superior application. It might surprise many people that in the
aircraft most concerned with weight to mechanical properties, (which would
be gliders), wood is still a favored material.
Mike
Donald E. Mannino
> This does bring up one point I'd like to make. So if you're gluing a
wood
> hammer shank into an ABS hammer butt, do you use PLASTIC epoxy or WOOD
> epoxy??
There are appropriate glues for this process which serve for both - and
they are not epoxy type glues. As with any gluing process, if the glue is
not applied correctly the bond will be weak and the parts could come loose.
> Also, the ABS hammer butt may not change with temp and humidity changes,
> but the wood sure will. What kind of longevity in the glue joint can you
> expect when one material is NEVER changing and the other is CONSTANTLY
> changing.
It is better than a joint between two parts where the dimensional changes
are in 2 different directions This is often the case between hammer heads
and hammer shanks, which is an area in all actions where, if the glue is
not carefully applied between the two parts (which are always both wood),
the joint will fail. This type of failure is also fairly common with wood
_or_ ABS catchers on wood catcher shanks, because the glue area is small
and the parts' dimenional changes are not aligned. Proper glue application
is critical, no matter the materials.
> I think Alec had a very valid point in his post when he asked if ABS is
so
> great, why isn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE of the action made out of it?? Seems
> to me then you'd have the ULTIMATE servicable action, no?
No, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Let's use an automotive analogy for a
moment. Many automakers have switched to aluminum engine blocks and
cylinder heads. This is an excellent solution for most companies. Does this
mean that the crankshaft and piston rods should also be changed? Of course
not.
Hammer shanks benefit from the properties that the wood brings, which is
why they have not been changed. In addition to the qualities of stiffness
Vs. mass, wood in this area has some other beneficial properties when
aligning and servicing the parts. In addition, the limitations of using
wood are not so detrimental in long, straight grained structures like
shanks and keys.
By the way, this is another nice illustration of the fact that ABS is not
used merely to reduce cost. If it does impact performance or tone
adversely, as it would in hammer shanks, it is not used. If cost were the
only purpose of using the material, then the whole action _would_ be made
of ABS, including the keys.
Thank you for bringing this point up.
Donald E. Mannino
the whippen
> flange of the Kawai EX is made of plastic, came from Kawai HQ in
Hamamatsu (I live in
> Japan).
Next opportunity you have, ask them again, and tell them that Kawai America
corrected you, stating that there are now "Black Jacks" in the EX. After
checking, whoever told you this will confirm that they have been changed.
Kawai America has received 3 or 4 to date with the new wippens.
Donald E. Mannino
> I think Kawai uses all wood in the high end stuff because of little
> problems you described early in your post ie: the incompatability of wood
> and ABS glue joints.
One more time, Dave -
The EX and RX-A pianos are the 2 limited production pianos we make, and
they both _do_ have plastic parts in the actions. You are hearing this
from the source, not the rumor mill. There was a long delay in adopting
these new materials, and this type of delay will continue in the future
because of the conservative nature of the workshop in Ryuyo which produces
these instruments.
After a long research and development process, our RX line of grand pianos
will have ABS wippens next year (a little secret I'm letting out here).
The new parts are to be phased in starting with the larger models. We are
only now making this change, in spite of Kawai's commitment to ABS since
the mid 70s. Anyone who thinks Kawai is brash and does not properly
research these kinds of changes is not familiar with the company. Keep in
mind, the RX grands are not low cost models!
Because of their conservative approach, it will probably be quite a few
years before the EX / RX-A department will use the new parts, if I know
them. Given the level of approval for our EX pianos by pianists at piano
competitions all over the world in recent years, I for one will not argue
with this department's conservatism.
Richard m
>
> If a new material of obvious potential superiorty had to prove itself
for
> 50 years before more widespread adoption, there would never be
improvement,
> and you would still be playing pianos without metal plates.
The use of metal plates in the manufacture of pianos was ESSENTIAL in the
developement of the modern piano, for the tone as we know it is produced
by some 211 steel strings exerting some 20 tons of tension that only a
metal plate can hold it together. This is why the piano is "loud" enough
to be played with a symphony orchestra. It was the desire of musicians
who wanted an instrument that could do this. The harpsichord couldn't.
Thus the piano came to be. Now why a musician wants plastic parts in the
action is beyond me. So who wants these plastic parts??
Richard Moody piano technician
Perhaps it is the conservatism of piano buyers that is retarding the
> progress of the instrument.
>
> --
> Scott Vande Pol
Its the musicians who want the best instruments. In the case of pianos,
its the buying public that support the piano makers whom the best
musicians endorse. rm
>
Richard m
> dza...@aol.com (DZappa) wrote in article
<51cg7n$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
The only people that want plastic parts are the manufacturers. I don't
know of a player or a technician who is asking for plastic parts.
Those who take an instrument with plastic parts are shall we say "beta
testors" but in the case of pianos the test period is 100 years. Take a
look at pianos from the 1890's See how they are holding together.
Unless they have been in a fire or a flood or stored in a barn. Ever
replace plastic elbows on cheap spinets?? The use of plastic parts is a
money saving endeavor on the part of makers. Of course the makers of top
quality instruments don't think about saving money on parts. Neither do
the technicians who service them. Neither do the buyers who shell out
extra money for superb quality.
Plastic is cheaper, that's the bottom line. (for the next 100 years)
Richard Moody piano technician
DZappa
In article <01bba28f$947a80e0$0100a8c0@gary>, "Gary Coombs"
<coo...@mindspring.com> writes:
> just make the whole
>piano, EVERY SINGLE PIECE, out of cast iron and have the ULTIMATE piano,
>huh???"
Maybe not the "ultimate piano", but certainly the heaviest! :-)
dave
wa...@ari.net
Bottom line for the owner/pianist:
How does it play, and how long does it last? If it plays well and lasts a long time, who cares what it is?
So far, no one has complained about how ABS components actually work. How long will they last? Answer that question in another 70 years.
I'm into wooden parts, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a manufacturer developing better materials. So far, so good for Kawai.
Frank Weston
islp...@atl.mindspring.com
ch...@ihgp3.ih.att.com (-Chen,J.L.) wrote:
>In article <skymed-2808...@skymed.fred.net>,
>BJ <sky...@fred.net> wrote:
>>A Kawai dealer told me today that the Japanese Kawais sound tinny or
>>"Bright" when compared to their American counterpart which is manufactured
>>in North Carolina. Is this true? He said the American Kawais have a much
>>deeper, rich sound. Which piano is better made? Which one holds it's value
>>better? WHICH ONE SHOULD I BUY??!!! Thanks in advance.
>Only the bottom of the line Kawai verticles are made in U.S., all higer
>line uprights and grands are made in Japan. So go figure if this Kawai
>dealer was telling you the truth.
>Julian
The only upright that is primarily put together in the US would be the
CX21 and that would be the best of the American made ones but
certainly no match for those imported from Japan like the NS20a, etc.
Stay away from the CX5H as it really is a poor excuse for a piano.
Bob
Donald E. Mannino
Richard m <rem...@iw.net> wrote in article
<01bba386.00ddc660$196f1dce@remoody>...
>
> So who wants these plastic parts??
>
> Richard Moody piano technician
People do not seek new technologies, they seek the benefits of those
technologies. Pianists are always asking for more control, power, sustain,
and faster repetition in their pianos. If the manufacturer finds a way to
provide this, the pianists are happy to get the results.
No one asked Steinway for a tubular metalic action rails, and many people
lambasted that company for putting them in during the 19th century, but the
benefits were clear so Steinway stuck with them. This is the same process
of improvement which is continuing today.
Don Mannino RPT
Barrie Heaton
In article <51jm0v$5...@ari.ari.net>, wa...@ari.net writes
>Bottom line for the owner/pianist:
>
>How does it play, and how long does it last? If it plays well and lasts a long
>time, who cares what it is?
I remember back in the seventies when Bentleys, Knights pianos were
raving about this fantastic new product for pianos plastic flanges and
plastic jacks and of course, Barrat & Robinson floating centres. But of
course now in the 90s the problems are just coming to light, the plastic
flanges shatter if you tighten a screw too much, the jacks squeak, and
grafite does not cling to them for a lengthy period. As for the
floating centres the dick head who designed those, wants shooting as
didn't he realise that plastic and wood react differently in humidity
changes. So we will see in another 20 years the problems ABS flanges
and jacks will cause us.
As I am well aware that more and more plastic parts are going to be
introduced in to the piano, not as someone put it on the list because
they improve performance. But is purely and simply in the long term
they will cost less.
Kind REgards,
Barrie.
>
>So far, no one has complained about how ABS components actually work. How long
>will they last? Answer that question in another 70 years.
>I'm into wooden parts, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a manufacturer
>developing better materials. So far, so good for Kawai.
>
>Frank Weston
--
Barrie Heaton | Be Environmentally Friendly
URL: http://www.airtime.co.uk/forte/piano.htm | To Your Neighbour
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pgp key on request | HAVE YOUR PIANO TUNED
Don Mannino
> Scott Vande Pol wrote:
> However, the fact remains that today's actions employing plastic parts
are not at the
> same qualitative level as the all-wood actions.
On what do you base this statement, Alec? Are there really some facts to
back this up, or is it your opinion?
Don Mannino RPT
Alec Weil
Scott Vande Pol wrote:
>
>
> There are several amusing features to this ongoing discussion:
>
> 50 years before more widespread adoption, there would never be improvement,
> and you would still be playing pianos without metal plates.
> free" for 50 years. Trouble for wood parts over this span of time in our
> climate is not a probability, it is a CERTAINTY. Contrast this with the
> POSSIBILITY of synthetic materials causing problems over the same period of
>....... there is an irrational belief that piano design and manufacture
> reached its apex over 50 years ago. This might be true, but it need not
> be. Perhaps it is the conservatism of piano buyers that is retarding the
> progress of the instrument.
I agree for the most part. Synthetic actions, electronic "play by wire" actions; all of
these are possibilities and I would love to have the chance to play them.
However, the fact remains that today's actions employing plastic parts are not at the
same qualitative level as the all-wood actions. There is, however, every reason to
believe (as Scott points out) that an "alternate action" (definition: a non-wooden
action intended for professional pianists) could be preferable in many aspects.
Nevertheless, there is the all-important issue of "feel". Why do electronic keyboard
manufacturers find it necessary to devise all sorts of complicated mechanical devices to
simulate a piano's touch? If you play piano, you already know the answer.
Similarly, an "alternate action" would also have to strive to re-create the touch of
wooden action, thereby demoting it automatically to the level of an "imitation".
In summary, if there is conservatism in piano buyers, I suspect that has more to do with
expectations of the piano's performance than preference for one material over another.
Development costs being what they are, considering the small number of top-end pianos
produced, a major R&D project for piano actions would probably not pay. At the time of
the piano's heyday (see Scott's example), this was not the case.
AW
Alec Weil
Don Mannino wrote:
> > However, the fact remains that today's actions employing plastic parts
> > are not at the same qualitative level as the all-wood actions.
> On what do you base this statement, Alec? Are there really some facts to
> back this up, or is it your opinion?
>
> Don Mannino RPT
First, we have to define our terms. Although there are many objective measurements one
can make of a piano action (and every technician must make), the only _meaningful_
criterium of quality is the judgement of the pianist.
If we accept this, then the only "facts" I can back up my claim with are the opinions of
pianists.
If we further accept that the opinions of concert pianists carry the most weight, then I
submit the Steinway & Sons Artist's list as proof (over 1000 names of currently
concertizing pianists). If you wish, you can add the Boesendorfer and Yamaha lists as
well (I do not know about Baldwin's action).
AW
Donald E. Mannino
> First, we have to define our terms. Although there are many objective
measurements one
> can make of a piano action (and every technician must make), the only
_meaningful_
> criterium of quality is the judgement of the pianist.
>
> If we accept this, then the only "facts" I can back up my claim with are
the opinions of
> pianists.
>
> If we further accept that the opinions of concert pianists carry the most
weight, then I
> submit the Steinway & Sons Artist's list as proof (over 1000 names of
currently
> concertizing pianists). If you wish, you can add the Boesendorfer and
Yamaha lists as
> well (I do not know about Baldwin's action).
I submit to you that there are many reasons pianists endorse and use
Steinway pianos in concerts (many of which were discussed in another thread
recently), and saying that even one of those reasons is related to the
materials used in the actions is leaping to a conclusion that has no
evidence to support it. As I said in my last posting, where are the facts?
Most people know that there are many fine Steinway D pianos available in
nearly every city, and the availability of so many good pianos, and the
average level of quality of those pianos, makes it a foregone conclusion
that Steinway will be used much, much more than everyone else. These
Steinway pianos are not bad instruments - they are usually quite good,
sometimes they are truly great, and they are almost ubiquitous.
Kawai does not have the production capacity of Steinway to make our EX
concert grand pianos. We probably never will - it would be very difficult
to produce so many EX instruments without compromising the unusual
characteristics and quality of this model. We also regularly sell our
concert instruments, leaving very few available to reserve for concert use.
In all of Southern California we currently have only 3 available, and 1 or
2 is more common.
You may want to take note of the pianists performing at piano competitions
all over the world in the last 5 years or so, and notice the percentage of
those choosing Kawai pianos over other makes. The percentage is quite high,
and is increasing, at least at those competitions which don't limit the
choice of pianos. Kawai offers no incentive to the pianists to use our
pianos other than the quality of the touch and tone, yet many choose Kawai,
even with ABS parts in the action. If you would like a listing of who has
chosen Kawai pianos at competitions (where Kawai has been allowed to
participate), I will be glad to post it.
As an example, at the William Kapell competition this summer 17 of the 31
contestants chose the Kawai, this over a NY Steinway, a Hamburg Steinway, a
Yamaha, and a Baldwin. All 3 finalists performed on the Kawai EX. The piano
used there has ABS parts in the action.
Do not stretch reason to try to prove an argument. The more the facts are
stretched, the thinner and weaker the argument becomes.
If you simply do not like the idea of having ABS parts in your piano, then
I will not dispute your choice, as this is a matter of taste. The one fact
that _does_ remain is that there really are no factually based arguments
against using ABS in piano actions, while there are many good facts to
support the material's use.
-Chen,J.L.
In article <01bbac2f$5761fae0$1554...@cis.compuserve.com>,
Donald E. Mannino <DonMa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>...
>Kawai does not have the production capacity of Steinway to make our EX
>concert grand pianos. We probably never will - it would be very difficult
>to produce so many EX instruments without compromising the unusual
>characteristics and quality of this model. We also regularly sell our
>concert instruments, leaving very few available to reserve for concert use.
> In all of Southern California we currently have only 3 available, and 1 or
>2 is more common.
>
>You may want to take note of the pianists performing at piano competitions
>all over the world in the last 5 years or so, and notice the percentage of
>those choosing Kawai pianos over other makes. The percentage is quite high,
>...
>
>Don Mannino RPT, Manager
>Kawai Piano Technical Support
Don :
I had the opportunity to play on an EX at our local dealership. It is
an impressive instrument. Its bass has the authority that is clearly better
than my Steinway B. However, I don't like the light action of the piano.
Although I am a fan of Steinway I have to say this is one of the piano that
I wish to own myself. Too bad the rest of the Kawai pianos do not sound like
the EX at all. In that day I also tried Kawai RX-A, GS60 and GS70, none of
them came even close tone wise except all had the light actions.
Julian
Don Mannino
> I had the opportunity to play on an EX at our local dealership. It is
> an impressive instrument. Its bass has the authority that is clearly
better
> than my Steinway B. However, I don't like the light action of the piano.
> Although I am a fan of Steinway I have to say this is one of the piano
that
> I wish to own myself. Too bad the rest of the Kawai pianos do not sound
like
> the EX at all. In that day I also tried Kawai RX-A, GS60 and GS70, none
of
> them came even close tone wise except all had the light actions.
>
> Julian
>
a 9'1" EX with a Steinway B, especially in the bass. The touch weight
standard on the EX is about 53 grams (which is lower than the Bs I have
measured), and the total moving mass is somewhat lower than a B, making the
touch feel lighter even if the downweight measures the same.
The RX-A piano can have a very impressive bass for a 6'5" piano, but they
tend to be voiced too bright for my personal taste. If voiced down to a
softer tone they sound much richer and fuller.
The GS piano have been discontinued, and have been replaced with the RX-6
and the (yet to be released) RX-7. The GS pianos tended towards a bright
and brassy tone, which was their goal when they were developed in the 80s.