Adding PianoDisc to Vintage Steinway?
mz
high-end vintage piano?) I love my 1942 5'11" Steinway but also want
PianoDisc in my livingroom. I haven't reached the point of deciding to have
2 pianos side by side, but I also shudder at the thought of permanently
defacing the Steinway. Does anyone have any experience, knowledge, etc. In
particular, do the modifications necessary to install the PianoDisc PDS
interfere with or otherwise compromise the sound or action of the piano?
And if so, are these modifications irreversible?
Any advice you can provide is appreciated. Please email me at
mailto:mzimm...@mediamaxx.com
Ed Foote
>defacing the Steinway.
>Does anyone have any experience, knowledge, etc.
> In
>particular, do the modifications necessary to install the PianoDisc PDS
>interfere with or otherwise compromise the sound or action of the piano?
I believe that this brand is the one that requires a large section of the
keybed be cut out. I have seen only one of these, and there were problems
associated with the pedals. Not only was the hardware less robust than the
original trapwork, but there was flex in the keybed that hadn't been there
before, and a firm foot on the pedal would unseat the glide buttons, i.e, when
using the una corda, and playing slightly more than pp, you could hear the
glide buttons knocking.
The back rail also required some creative work to bed properly.
>And if so, are these modifications irreversible?
Yes, but with great difficulty. The owner of the above mentioned installation
asked me to take the whole thing out of there and repair the damages. I had to
splice wood supports back across the long gap that had been cut into the
keybed.
regards,
Ed Foote
Nashville, Tennessee
(See the temperament revival)
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
Yogi Panda
Yogi
dppet...@hotmail.com
IMHO, every piano i've ever encountered with the PianoDisc system added to it
has been far less than the piano it started out as. If you really want a
PianoDisc, just buy oen already attached to one of the mediocre Korean pianos
they come on from the factory (usually Young Chang of origin). If you have any
regard for the value of your Steinway, a PianoDisc system should be the LAST
thing you're thinking of....
Diane Peterson
mz wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience adding a PianoDisc onto a Steinway (or other
> high-end vintage piano?) I love my 1942 5'11" Steinway but also want
> PianoDisc in my livingroom. I haven't reached the point of deciding to have
> 2 pianos side by side, but I also shudder at the thought of permanently
> defacing the Steinway. Does anyone have any experience, knowledge, etc. In
> particular, do the modifications necessary to install the PianoDisc PDS
> interfere with or otherwise compromise the sound or action of the piano?
> And if so, are these modifications irreversible?
>
Gordon Mansell
had one done on a new Steinway. It was never the same again.
LFletc6143
>keybed be cut out. I have seen only one of these, and there were problems
>associated with the pedals. Not only was the hardware less robust than the
>original trapwork, but there was flex in the keybed that hadn't been there
>before, and a firm foot on the pedal would unseat the glide buttons, i.e,
>when
>using the una corda, and playing slightly more than pp, you could hear the
>glide buttons knocking.
I have seen hundreds, both our installations and those done by others. The only
difference between the Pianodisc and the QRS as far as the selenoid rail slot
you have to cut is the Pianodisc has 88 selenoids and the QRS doesn't, so the
Pianodisc system requires a wider (left to right) slot than the QRS. The area
cut out is only about 2" wide, then the length needed for the number of keys
that will have a selenoid installed under it.
If the person doing the installation does it right, there is no need to be
concerned as far as the keybed. The only time you'll ever see that is if a
butcher did the job. There is no change made to the touch of the action - if
it's done properly you'll never know the player is there. The one thing that
*does* change permanently, however, is you have to sacrifice the middle pedal.
It will no longer function, but then most people don't use it anyway, so that
may not be a big loss.
As to the new trapwork, if it's done right, it is just as solid as before. The
key is doing it right. Whether or not it will "deface" your Steinway depends on
your point of view, and whether the installation was done by someone who knows
what he's doing or not. A bad job will ruin the piano. A good job will leave
the piano working just fine, except for the loss of use of the middle pedal.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/Technician
VOCE88
Hi Larry -
I have also seen hundreds of these installations. (We did almost 100 in '99).
Everything Larry says is on the money, However, it is not necessary to lose the
sostenuto on an older Steinway. The trapwork does move though.
I would speak to several installers before having a system installed. Find out
how many they've done - and see some finished product - if possible on a piano
like yours. Remember that the installers work will have an effect on your
pianos final performance.
Good Luck
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila,. Pa.
1 (800) 394-1117
VOCE88
>Don't do it, particularly on a quality instrument. As a Steinway rep, we
>had one done on a new Steinway. It was never the same again.
>
Hi Gordon -
Again, the installer makes all of the difference. I have been told that
Steinway will do it in their Astoria factory (for new units only)
Is this true? And is that where the piano you speak of was done?
Thanks for the input.
LFletc6143
>artifact and antique.
Just a point: In order to qualify as an antique, the item must be a minimum on
100 years old. Even when a piano reaches this age, while it may qualify as an
antique, it rarely has any antique value, regardless of the name on the front.
It is only it's value as an instrument that you can ever count on, Steinway or
not.
If the man can't play it, and wants a player system on it, but is afraid to
because people are telling him he's going to ruin it, what value does it have
to him? None. Now he's worrying about what it is worth to someone else.
A digital piano won't give the man what he wants. Putting a player system on
his Steinway will. If he has it done by someone who knows what he's doing, it
won't harm the musical value of his piano in the least, and his wants and
wishes will be satisfied.
The things you have in this life are of no more importance than what you get
out of them. If having a player piano is what you want, do your homework on the
installer, and have at it. Your 1942 Steinway, while it is probably a nice
piano, is *still* just an item you own, that should do for you what you want it
to do. It is not a shrine.
Put the player on it. Then sit back and enjoy it. Let others worry about it's
"worship value" after you're dead.
Al Stevens
That's the operative phrase. Think of the value of the instrument as an
artifact and antique. Would you cut a hole in the dashboard of a 1940
Packard and install a new Japanese super-boomer sound system? Would you put
vinyl upholstery on that Louis XIV chair? Would you add an electric motor
and zig-zag attachment to Grandma's old treadle sewing machine?
When you upgrade an antique you lessen its aesthetic value until such time
as the upgrade itself becomes an antique, too, if ever.
>but also want PianoDisc in my livingroom.
I would leave the Steinway intact and get a digital piano with comparable
bells and whistles for not much more than you'll pay to install the
PianoDisc.
On the other hand, I am considering adding PianoDisc to my 1980 Yamaha C3.
But it's not a 1942 Steinway.
MidiOpera Co.
> On the other hand, I am considering adding PianoDisc to my 1980 Yamaha C3.
> But it's not a 1942 Steinway.
Funny, I'm thinking of adding a PianoDisk to my '88 Baldwin L but would
never consider putting one on my '57 R.
Anyone know basic cost for installation of the simplest
recording/playback system - no cds or other electronics and speakers
mounted in the piano.
RS
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera Co.
http://www.evcom.net/~midiopra/
http://www.tcol.net/~midiopra/
VOCE88
>If the man can't play it, and wants a player system on it, but is afraid to
>because people are telling him he's going to ruin it, what value does it have
>to him? None. Now he's worrying about what it is worth to someone else.
>
>A digital piano won't give the man what he wants. Putting a player system on
>his Steinway will. If he has it done by someone who knows what he's doing, it
>won't harm the musical value of his piano in the least, and his wants and
>wishes will be satisfied.
Just an additional thought - Steinway's factory showroom in NYC has pianos on
display with player systems in them. The Sales Manager there said they sell a
huge number of pianos with the disc system on them when new.
mz
Larry, your approach seems to be more towards the "household utilitarian"
side versus the "musical instrument" side, and therefore you suggest that I
should probably go ahead and have it done. This assumes that I am more of
an casual user than one who takes the "mechano-musical" aspects of the
instrument seriously.
Would your suggestions change if I were more interested in the latter? I am,
in fact, conservatory-trained and love my Steinway - - not because it's a
Steinway, but rather because the action is very good (7 to 8 out of 10 on my
own scale), and the sound is incredible (9 out of 10) for an instrument
under 6 feet.
My dilemma is this: My profession since music-school days has been
computers but, as a hobby, I have done quite a bit of classical MIDI work
for piano and orchestra/string quartet. I do have digital keyboards for my
computer-based work. But I DESPERATELY want some way to combine the two
with ALL the benefits of having it in my living room. I still play a
rigorous repetoire of Chopin, Liszt, etc, which obviously requires an
intensely responsive instrument, not just a casual practice unit for the
kids and/or furniture-piece for my wife. I'm also considering hosting a
series of 'salon' recitals in my home. If I had any reason to believe that
adding a PianoDisc unit to the Steinway would compromise my enjoyment of a
great instrument, I absolutely wouldn't do it. For what it's worth, the
eventual resale value is of little concern.
I would be quite interested your opinion given the new information.
Thanks,
Michael Zimmerman
Austin, TX
LFletc6143 <lflet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000102135522...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> >Think of the value of the instrument as an
> >artifact and antique.
>
>
> Just a point: In order to qualify as an antique, the item must be a
minimum on
> 100 years old. Even when a piano reaches this age, while it may qualify as
an
> antique, it rarely has any antique value, regardless of the name on the
front.
> It is only it's value as an instrument that you can ever count on,
Steinway or
> not.
>
> If the man can't play it, and wants a player system on it, but is afraid
to
> because people are telling him he's going to ruin it, what value does it
have
> to him? None. Now he's worrying about what it is worth to someone else.
>
> A digital piano won't give the man what he wants. Putting a player system
on
> his Steinway will. If he has it done by someone who knows what he's doing,
it
> won't harm the musical value of his piano in the least, and his wants and
> wishes will be satisfied.
>
MAKitt
the factory happily installed a 100,000 DuoArt mechanical player systems during
the first half of the century. The difference, of course, is that it was not
an after-market modification. Specially trained installers did the work at the
factory with the kits they acquired from the player company, just like today
only the work is now done in a private techs shop. That is a great reason to
shop various techs. You can see what remains of these installations in many
older Steinways where the player-system was removed. There is a slot in the
keybed to accommodate the solenoids, though the slots I've seen were 1 1/2"
wide, not 2" and also I doubt if they were 88 note systems so the length of the
slot is shorter. The trapwork was designed from the beginning to allow for the
pump pedals and the cabinet that housed all the pneumatic components, and this
was done with an iron brace that the lyre is suspended from. The PianoDisc
trapwork is also designed to avoid the same. Ed was right, it is flimsier and
piano movers break the levers occassionally but all three pedals still
function. IMHO there are more similarities than differences between the old
and the new and I wince a little when people speak of butchering instrument
with a well done installation.
Ed Foote
>computers but, as a hobby, I have done quite a bit of classical MIDI work
>for piano and orchestra/string quartet. I do have digital keyboards for
>my
>computer-based work. But I DESPERATELY want some way to combine the two
>with ALL the benefits of having it in my living room.
Greetings,
With the above in mind, perhaps you might consider having a midi attachment
put on the piano. This allows the piano to provide a midi output, but doesn't
require much carving on the piano. Sensors under the keys is about all that is
involved. It won't play the piano for you, and touch sensitivity is not there
like in the Piano disc addition, but you can have it installed with a lot less
change than the alternatives.
Regards,
Al Stevens
LFletc6143 wrote in message
<20000102135522...@ng-bj1.aol.com>...
>Put the player on it. Then sit back and enjoy it. Let others worry about
it's
>"worship value" after you're dead.
I hope you don't own a 1940 Packard.
MAKitt
>like in the Piano disc addition,
Good advice, Ed regarding a MIDI interface. I've used one for ten years now -
the Gulbransen Crystal originally and the QuietTime by PianoDisc now. Both
transmit Velocity data so indeed, they are touch-sensitive to 128 levels of
expression. However I don't think the Quantization is very accurate for a
computer user and this is probably due to the lengthy travel the sensor must
make in its journey under the key. My Kurzweil digital piano is far more
accurate.
Michael Kitt
LFletc6143
>
>Thanks,
>
>Michael Zimmerman
Michael,
Ed Foote makes a good point regarding the midi strip under your keys. I do
think there are some that have touch sensitivity, however, but don't know
enough about the different ones to tell you which one does.
The midi strip is much less intrusive. It doesn't require any major cutting of
the keybed at all. So with this information, the question would be - do you
need or want the playback ability of the player system, or do you just want the
ability to send midi information from your piano? That can be sent, as you
know, to your computer or whatever other hardware you're driving. But the keys
won't go up and down, and it won't act like a player piano on playback.
Either way, even with the knowledge that you are a seasoned pianist, go for it.
Just make sure of the credentials of the guy who will do the installation, and
make sure you talk with *him* prior to the work, and not just a salesman or
something. Do whichever one will give you what it is you're looking for.
Once you decide, and then have it done, you'll enjoy it. And if done right, you
will be able to play it just as before and won't be able to tell anything has
changed.
Janet Wentworth
however I have tried both approaches and here is what I learned.
1) I had a 1926 Chickering 5'9" grand piano. We added a Gulbranson MIDI
retrofit unit to it. It did not require any modifications to the piano (the
sensors were just laid in on top of the keybed) but also it did not actually
play the keys-- you got MIDI output to the sound unit. I found it rather
unsatisfactory. The quality of the piano samples were poor. Also I found
that discs I purchased and other MIDI songs I obtained over the internet and
from other sources never sounded as good as far as the other instruments as
I felt they should. I did spend some time using CakeWalk to correct various
problems (reassigning sound patches etc.) but it took a lot of effort and I
finally gave up. Of course, I could have put more money into the unit and
bought a better sound module, but I decided to quit putting money and time
into the unit.
One of the biggest disappointments was the record function. It recorded the
key strokes adequately but I was never able to get the sustain pedal
recording properly, so all the recordings sounded very choppy. I was never
able to really use it as a self-teaching tool (as EVERYTHING I recorded
sounded bad) which was my original intent. Perhaps if I had been able to
find a qualified Gulbranson technician, I could have solved the problem, but
I couldn't find one in my area.
Another major issue was when I went to have some major regulation work done
on the piano. The technician was terrified of the electronics and felt that
it was interfering with the action. He felt he could not guarantee a good
job as long as the Gulbranson was still installed. So I finally removed it.
2) As a Christmas present to myself this year I bought a Mason & Hamlin BB
with the PianoDisc installed. The unit was installed at the factory. I
really like it. The playback is much better than the Gulbranson. The
record function also works well - I can really reproduce my playing (pedals
and all). It is a great teaching tool. I plan to have the unit serviced
and the piano tuned and cared for by the dealer who sold it to me. They are
well versed in the Piano Disc system. Perhaps it is because I live in
Northern California, but the dealer said if I wanted to buy an acoustic-only
M&H and add the PianoDisc later, they recommended I send the piano back to
Sacramento, CA (the factory) rather than have anyone (including themselves)
do it locally.
Summary,-
I understand the feelings of those who expressed concern over "defacing" a
vintage Steinway. But I also agree with the comments that it is only a
piano and something to be used by you for your enjoyment. So if you really
want the advantages of the PianoDisc in your Steinway--go for it.
BUT, BEFORE you make this big step, make sure you have a local technician
who understands the unit you are installing and is capable of maintaining it
(and the piano). Make sure he/she has installed many of them and has happy
customers. Don't go with anyone who has no experience but is willing to
"give it a try." You need the very best to make sure you will be happy with
the result.
By the way, anyone want to buy a used Gulbranson retrofit unit?
Janet
Ed Foote <a4...@aol.com.omit> wrote in message
news:20000103122954...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
> > My profession since music-school days has been
> >computers but, as a hobby, I have done quite a bit of classical MIDI work
> >for piano and orchestra/string quartet. I do have digital keyboards for
> >my
> >computer-based work. But I DESPERATELY want some way to combine the two
> >with ALL the benefits of having it in my living room.
>
> Greetings,
> With the above in mind, perhaps you might consider having a midi
attachment
> put on the piano. This allows the piano to provide a midi output, but
doesn't
> require much carving on the piano. Sensors under the keys is about all
that is
> involved. It won't play the piano for you, and touch sensitivity is not
there
LFletc6143
>
What good is a 1940 Packard to a guy who wants to take a cross country trip?
Janet Wentworth
collect vintage cars and take great pride in restoring them to their
original glory. These are beautiful specimens and the joys of restoring
plus owning and showing the car are the goals. But, As Larry points out,
these are not cars you take to the grocery store.
Pianos can fall into the same category. Do you own the Steinway as a
collector, in which case you would never modify the instrument or is it a
tool for your art, in which case you might modify it if the modification
achieved your goal? I am not proposing any random "butchering" of a fine
instrument -- just trying to keep the decision in perspective to why one
owns the piano in the first place.
I think the discussion needs to go back to the original question-- what is
the impact of a retrofit of a PianoDisc (or other unit) to a piano -- sound,
value, structural integrity, etc. -- when done by a qualified technician.
Janet
LFletc6143 <lflet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000103130934...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
dppet...@hotmail.com
WOW!!! I've never heard it stated any more clearly..... it's simply too bad
that all of the "piano salesman" types won't understand your post.... ya see,
they all have a point to prove....
diane
VOCE88
>side versus the "musical instrument" side, and therefore you suggest that I
>should probably go ahead and have it done. This assumes that I am more of
>an casual user than one who takes the "mechano-musical" aspects of the
>instrument seriously.
>
>Would your suggestions change if I were more interested in the latter? I am,
>in fact, conservatory-trained and love my Steinway - - not because it's a
>Steinway, but rather because the action is very good (7 to 8 out of 10 on my
>own scale), and the sound is incredible (9 out of 10) for an instrument
>under 6 feet.
>
>computers but, as a hobby, I have done quite a bit of classical MIDI work
>for piano and orchestra/string quartet. I do have digital keyboards for my
>computer-based work. But I DESPERATELY want some way to combine the two
>rigorous repetoire of Chopin, Liszt, etc, which obviously requires an
>intensely responsive instrument, not just a casual practice unit for the
>kids and/or furniture-piece for my wife. I'm also considering hosting a
>series of 'salon' recitals in my home. If I had any reason to believe that
>adding a PianoDisc unit to the Steinway would compromise my enjoyment of a
>great instrument, I absolutely wouldn't do it. For what it's worth, the
>eventual resale value is of little concern.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Michael Zimmerman
>
>
Another thought - There is a piano player available today made by QRSMusic that
can be installed easily to sit ON the keyboard and play it with many electronic
"fingers".
This would require no cutting at all and may satisfy your need to use a player.
See www.QRSMusic.com
Yogi Panda
> can be installed easily to sit ON the keyboard and play it with many electronic
> "fingers".
>
> This would require no cutting at all and may satisfy your need to use a player.
I was thinking of this option for breaking in a new piano.
Yogi
LFletc6143
>that
>can be installed easily to sit ON the keyboard and play it with many
>electronic
>"fingers".
>
>This would require no cutting at all and may satisfy your need to use a
>player.
>
>
>
>Richard Galassini
Good point, Richard. I had completely forgotten about that one.
LFletc6143
>that all of the "piano salesman" types won't understand your post.... ya see,
>they all have a point to prove....
> diane
Diane, if you did anything besides just pop in now and then and halfway read
things before dropping in your snide comments, you'd have known that the points
the lady is making is exactly what the "piano salesman types" were saying. It
wasn't the "piano salesman types" who got off point. We understood it very
clearly. As did Janet. You, however, haven't even read the whole thread.
Al Stevens
LFletc6143 wrote in message
<20000103130934...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
>What good is a 1940 Packard to a guy who wants to take a cross country
trip?
Properly maintained, it is as good for that purpose as it was in 1940.
Al Stevens
read
>things before dropping in your snide comments, you'd have known that the
points
>the lady is making is exactly what the "piano salesman types" were saying.
Thanks. Her message was kind of bewildering. Like, where did that come from?
> It
>wasn't the "piano salesman types" who got off point. We understood it very
>clearly. As did Janet. You, however, haven't even read the whole thread.
You are implying that I got "off point." I don't think anyone got "off
point." (I also don't think it's written anywhere that no one may change the
subject or offer alternative viewpoints in these discussions.) The question
was about the advisability of the installation. Mz did not seem to want to
restrict the scope of answers. There are many things to consider when you
make such a decision.
LFletc6143
>point." (I also don't think it's written anywhere that no one may change the
>subject or offer alternative viewpoints in these discussions.) The question
>was about the advisability of the installation. Mz did not seem to want to
>restrict the scope of answers. There are many things to consider when you
>make such a decision.
I had no problem with our discussion, Al. I didn't view any of it as "off
topic." Just a difference of opinion, which is each of our right to express. My
problem is with Diane Peterson. Go back and do a search on her and you'll find
that all she does is pop through every once in a while, drop in a comment
that's designed to be smart aleck in content, then she's gone again. I'm just
calling her hand on it. Nothing was aimed at you.
And I'd like to have a 1940 Packard. I'd sell it and trade in my Town Car on a
new Prowler.
Jon Parker
Al Stevens <alst...@midifitz.com> wrote in message
news:Xrpc4.13637$Ia2.4...@newscene.newscene.com...
And today, with that Japanese sound system it might be fun to take
cross-country.
--
Jon Parker
Jazz Pianist
Denver
--
SEMarcus
We are now confident that the proper installation of the PianoDisc by
trained/authorized technicians does not affect the warranty of Steinway & Sons
pianos or Boston pianos."
--written by Frank Mazurco, Vice President, Steinway & Sons, in a letter to
Lamont Bohoman, Technical Services, MSR PianoDisc, April 21, 1992.
Kindest regards,
Steve Marcus (SEMa...@aol.com)
http://members.delphi.com/stevemarcus/index.html
Director of Sales, THE BEAUTIFUL SOUND, INC. (630) 325-9999
http://www.qrsmusic.com/mrktng/dealers/Beautsound/BeautSound.htm
Al Stevens
>topic."
Sorry. I misunderstood.
piano...@aol.com
> Does anyone have any experience adding a PianoDisc onto a Steinway (or other
> high-end vintage piano?) I love my 1942 5'11" Steinway but also want
> PianoDisc in my livingroom. I haven't reached the point of deciding to have
> 2 pianos side by side, but I also shudder at the thought of permanently
> defacing the Steinway. Does anyone have any experience, knowledge, etc. In
> particular, do the modifications necessary to install the PianoDisc PDS
> interfere with or otherwise compromise the sound or action of the piano?
> And if so, are these modifications irreversible?
>
> Any advice you can provide is appreciated. Please email me at
> mailto:mzimm...@mediamaxx.com
Hi, if you do not want to have the system installed permanently, you could buy the system from QRS that sets on top of the keys. Here is a link that might help in your decision. http://www.qrsmusic.com/Playola.asp
J.B. Wood
some interesting issues. I had considered purchasing a Yamaha
Disklavier grand piano but then I wondered what happens after, say, 20
years or more when the piano itself is perfectly OK (assuming proper
maintenance over the years) but the add-ons (circuits, switches,
solenoids, etc) that made it into a player/recording piano begin to fail
and spare parts are no longer available or only on flea bay. I do know
that piano tuners don't particularly like to service conventional player
pianos because of all the reach-around.
Marantz had its cassette-driven "PianoCorder" add-on decades ago. Is
this system still in operation anywhere? Or are you stuck with perhaps
in great acoustic piano with dead electronics and a lack of replacement
parts? My advice is that if you want a player/recorder piano buy a
high-quality weighted-key digital piano with that capability built-in
and leave the acoustic piano the way it came from the factory. To do
this especially to a S&S Sons grand in good repair is sacrilege IMHO.
My .02 worth. Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_1...@hotmail.com
robertd...@gmail.com
Imperative to "bed the key frame" part of regulation. There is no degridation to the sound or appearance if the install is done correctly. Go visit jobs completed by your installer and take a credentialed tech w/ you. Rdare piano tech Lapeer, MI