Question re Stencil Samicks
H. Emmerson Meyers
German name on it?? Are people really duped into paying a higher
price for the piano by virtue of the German name, or into purchasing a piano
they would otherwise not buy if they knew it was a Samick?? Even more
interesting: Does the piano shop have any obligation to let the buyer know
the true origin of the piano (That is to say a Samick made in Korea, as
opposed to a Steiner made in Germany or South Africa)
Radu Focshaner
"H. Emmerson Meyers" <vkr...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:cjstai$km9$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> As a practical matter what is the point of taking a Samick and sticking a
> German name on it?? Are people really duped into paying a higher
> price for the piano by virtue of the German name,
People are really duped to buy those pianos (not necessarily paying a higher
price).
> Even more
> interesting: Does the piano shop have any obligation to let the buyer know
> the true origin of the piano (That is to say a Samick made in Korea, as
> opposed to a Steiner made in Germany or South Africa)
I don't think so. I met a saleman that genuinely did not know the source of
Weber or Kohler in the showroom (there were some Samicks too).
Moreover, I don't think they know if some of the pianos are manufactured in
Indonesia or Korea/Japan. A couple of years agao there was a nice guy at
Samick who answered questions about origin of the Samick pianos. That Samick
forum does not exists anymore.
Back in my days in Romania all uprights were "Austrian" and had a "bronze"
frame. Checking the "for sale" listings in Romania, yesterday, I found that
the pianos are still Austrian with "bronze" frame (" For sale Pleyel
upright, over 100yo, Austrian, bronze frame, 7000 euros ")
Cy Shuster
examining its design and construction. And unlike cars, many people buying
pianos don't play well enough to notice the differences in a test drive.
Have you ever seen a grand piano with "Hyundai" on it? I have... and was
taken aback. German is to pianos as Swiss is to watches, regardless of
actual quality. Here are some Chinese brands: Nordiska, Falcone, Carl Ebel,
even Henry F. Miller. Can it be long before Chickering is sold?!?
--Cy--
"H. Emmerson Meyers" <vkr...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:cjstai$km9$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
jrk011
> German name on it?? Are people really duped into paying a higher
> price for the piano by virtue of the German name, or into purchasing a piano
> they would otherwise not buy if they knew it was a Samick??
Well, we all know someone who actually fell for it, and then tried to
dump the instrument on somebody more naive than himself.
jrk
Michael Sayers
from the Handbook of Texas Piano Manufacture:
In 1991 there were four piano manufacturers with offices in Texas, all
of them German: August Forster Piano Company and Zimmermann Piano
Company in Houston, and Bernhard Steiner Piano Company and Dietmann
Pianos Limited in Dallas. Interestingly, the Whittle Music Company of
Dallas now controls the name commonly associated with the invention
and development of the first pianoforte in 1709-Bartolomeo Cristofori
of Padua, Italy.
Larry
>from the Handbook of Texas Piano Manufacture:
>
>In 1991 there were four piano manufacturers with offices in Texas, all
>of them German: August Forster Piano Company and Zimmermann Piano
>Company in Houston, and Bernhard Steiner Piano Company and Dietmann
>Pianos Limited in Dallas.
I have spoken to the publisher of this pamphlet, and they will be correcting
their error shortly.
Larry
The Wizard of Ahhhhs
Michael Sayers
They won't be correcting an error. They will be creating an error. MJS.
Larry
>They won't be correcting an error. They will be creating an error. MJS.
So in other words, you don't place any real confidence in their accuracy to
start with, but merely cite them because they are the only source that supports
your view. I see.
While they are in error, they are *the* authority on Bernhard Steiners, but
once they correct the error they are simply wrong.....
Sayer, you know that is a sign of mental illness, don't you? Seek help, fella.
Michael Sayers
> >From: mjs1...@yahoo.com (Michael Sayers)
>
> >They won't be correcting an error. They will be creating an error. MJS.
>
> So in other words, you don't place any real confidence in their accuracy to
> start with, but merely cite them because they are the only source that supports
> your view. I see.
I haven't researched the accuracy of documents by that publisher, or
made any claim that that document is accurate. What I have done, is
come up with several documents, all of which show that Bernhard
Steiners are German pianos.
What you have done, is come up with ZERO documents showing that
Bernhard Steiner is a Samick owned company or brand.
What you have done, is allege that the Handbook of Texas Piano
Manufacture is inaccurate, but you have provided ZERO evidence to that
effect.
Michael Sayers
> >From: mjs1...@yahoo.com (Michael Sayers)
>
> >They won't be correcting an error. They will be creating an error. MJS.
>
> So in other words, you don't place any real confidence in their accuracy to
> start with, but merely cite them because they are the only source that supports
> your view. I see.
I haven't researched the accuracy of documents by that publisher, or
made any claim that that document is accurate. What I have done, is
come up with several documents, all of which show that Bernhard
Steiners are German pianos.
What you have done, is come up with ZERO documents showing that
Bernhard Steiner is a Samick owned company or brand.
What you have done, is allege that the Handbook of Texas Piano
Manufacture is inaccurate, but you have provided ZERO evidence to that
effect.
Can you identify other documents by the same publisher or authors,
which are (in your view) inaccurate?
get real
wrote:
>larryin...@aol.composer (Larry) wrote in message news:<20041006101244...@mb-m19.aol.com>...
>> >From: mjs1...@yahoo.com (Michael Sayers)
>>
>> >They won't be correcting an error. They will be creating an error. MJS.
>>
>> So in other words, you don't place any real confidence in their accuracy to
>> start with, but merely cite them because they are the only source that supports
>> your view. I see.
>
>
>I haven't researched the accuracy of documents by that publisher, or
>made any claim that that document is accurate. What I have done, is
>come up with several documents, all of which show that Bernhard
>Steiners are German pianos.
>
>What you have done, is come up with ZERO documents showing that
>Bernhard Steiner is a Samick owned company or brand.
You were provided with innumerable web references which show BS to be
a stencil brand of Samick. You know this as well. With this incessant
harangue you are simply feebly attempting to relay the groundwork to
fool someone into paying way too much for your pso.
get real
From the Samick USA newsletter, May 2003.
http://www.samickusa.com/smc/SMC-Newsletter-May-2003.pdf
SMC will be offering aggressive
pricing on the following manufacturer
close outs:
Bernhard Steiner: From vertical
to grand pianos. SMC will no
longer be distributing this line
and all products must go!
CHICKERING: Grands. Large
quantities on 5’4“ and 6‘2”
grands, limited quantities on
5’9”. All pianos come with solid
quarter sawn spruce soundboard,
maple bridges, Renner hammers.
Warranted by SMC.
HOFFMANN: Grand pianos and
verticals, fine European pianos
guaranteed and backed by
Bechstein, all grands with soild
spruce soundboard and Renner
action (great competition for
Petrof).
SMC will also be liquidating
all discontinued product or nonstocking
product at special pricing
and or special terms. This will
represent any and all product in
any line that we sell that will no
longer be part or our new inventory.
Please contact your Regional
Sale Manager for complete
details on terms, pricing and
updated lists.
* NOTE: ALL PIANOS ARE NEW IN
BOX AND COME WITH FULL WARRANTY.
ALL PIANOS WILL BE
SOLD ON A FIRST COME BASIS.
by: Dan Babbitt
Manager, Sales Administration
********************************************************
Bernhard Steiner Pianos USA, 5840 Alpha Rd, Dallas, TX 75240
214-233-1967
Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
City of Industry,
***********************************************************
Samick Piano Co.
18521 Railroad St.,
City of Industry, CA 91748
818-964-4700
800-592-9393
Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
City of
Industry , CA
Postal address : 424 CHONGCHON-DONG,
PUPYUNG-GU, INCHON, KOREA
Telephone : 82-32-525-2104
Fax : 82-32-522-9330~1, 82-32-524-4233
Names used: Samick, Hyundai, Kohler & Campbell, D.H. Baldwin, Bernhard
Steiner,
Otto Altenburg, private label brands, no longer used: Horugel,
Stegler, Schumann
http://www.pianotuning.com/manufacturers.htm
*****************************************************************
Samick: Names used include Samick, Hyundai, Maeari, Knabe, Kohler &
Campbell, D.H. Baldwin, Bernhard Steiner, Otto Altenburg;
private-label brand names; no longer used: Horugel, Stegler, Schumann.
Samick is one of the world's largest piano manufacturers
as you can see, i did my yahoo search omitting pages with your name,
since you have so desperately tried to sell your pso and those pages
would clutter my search
*********************************************************************
Korean Pianos
The 3 major Korean piano producers are Young Chang, Samick, and
Sojin/Daewoo. These three conglomerates produce or have produced,
besides pianos with their own names on them, instruments with
recognizable American brand names such as Weber, Knabe, Wurlitzer,
Kohler & Campbell, Schafer & Sons, Sherman Clay, or PianoDisc, and
also with a wide assortment of "stencil" or "trade" names such as
Hyundai, Schumann, Stegler, Cline, Daytron, Royale, Wagner, Bernhard
Steiner, Otto Altenburg, Horugel, Maeri, and a host of others.
http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/shortguide2.htm
*******************************************************************
Samick Piano Co.
18521 Railroad St., City of Industry, CA 91748
818-964-4700
800-592-9393
Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
City of Industry , CA
Postal address : 424 CHONGCHON-DONG, PUPYUNG-GU, INCHON, KOREA
Telephone : 82-32-525-2104
Fax : 82-32-522-9330~1, 82-32-524-4233
Names used: Samick, Hyundai, Kohler & Campbell, D.H. Baldwin, Bernhard
Steiner, Otto Altenburg, private label brands, no longer used:
Horugel, Stegler, Schumann
http://www.jancso.ch/klavierhersteller.htm
********************************************************************
Samick Piano Company
18521 Railroad St.,
City of Industry, CA 91748
818-964-4700
800-592-9393
Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
City of
Industry , CA
Postal address : 424 CHONGCHON-DONG,
PUPYUNG-GU, INCHON, KOREA
Telephone : 82-32-525-2104
Fax : 82-32-522-9330~1, 82-32-524-4233
Names used: Samick, Hyundai, Kohler & Campbell, D.H. Baldwin, Bernhard
Steiner,
Otto Altenburg, private label brands, no longer used: Horugel,
Stegler, Schumann
http://sandiegopianotuning.com/manufacturers.htm
*********************************************************************
Samick Piano Co.
18521 Railroad St., City of Industry, CA 91748
818-964-4700
800-592-9393
Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
City of Industry , CA
Postal address : 424 CHONGCHON-DONG, PUPYUNG-GU, INCHON, KOREA
Telephone : 82-32-525-2104
Fax : 82-32-522-9330~1, 82-32-524-4233
Gebräuchliche Namen: Samick, Hyundai, Kohler & Campbell, D.H. Baldwin,
Bernhard Steiner, Otto Altenburg, private label brands, no longer
used: Horugel, Stegler, Schumann
Hope that helps!
On 7 Oct 2004 01:08:29 -0700, mjs1...@yahoo.com (Michael Sayers)
wrote:
>larryin...@aol.composer (Larry) wrote in message news:<20041006101244...@mb-m19.aol.com>...
Michael Sayers
> I hope this shuts you up re BS forever, you little twerp.
>
> From the Samick USA newsletter, May 2003.
>
> http://www.samickusa.com/smc/SMC-Newsletter-May-2003.pdf
This doesn't mention anything at all about Bernhard Steiners being
stencil Samicks, or state that Bernhard Steiner pianos are made by
Samick, or even state that Bernhard Steiner pianos are not German
pianos. Please read on.
> SMC will be offering aggressive
> pricing on the following manufacturer
> close outs:
> Bernhard Steiner: From vertical
> to grand pianos.
a) the article does not claim the Bernhard Steiner pianos are made by
Samick
b) the article does not claim that Bernhard Steiners are not German
pianos
c) it does not detail what Bernhard Steiner models are being referred
to
d) Bechstein pianos, which also are listed, are not made by Samick
e) Bechstein pianos, contrary to whatever you might impute, are German
pianos
d) Bernhard Steiners, contrary to whatever you might impute, are
German pianos
FYI, the upright Bernhard Steiners are now made in South Africa - but
they are still German pianos (just as the Steinway Bostons, made by
Kawai, are still American pianos).
I have communicated with a man who works in the factory in South
Africa. The outfit there is headed by one of the Kahns....I think his
name is Bill Kahn.
The number and address should be in South African indexes. No need to
read German, to find them.
>
> ********************************************************
>
> Bernhard Steiner Pianos USA, 5840 Alpha Rd, Dallas, TX 75240
> 214-233-1967
> Pianos made by Samick Musical Instrument Mfg, Inchon, South Korea and
> City of Industry,
>
> http://www.ptg.org/mfgrs.htm
> http://www.pianotuning.com/manufacturers.htm
> http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=%22bernhard+steiner%22+samick+-%22michael+sayers%22&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&b=11&u=www.keystopiano.com/pianobrands.htm&w=%22bernhard+steiner%22+samick&d=F52096C8BA&icp=1&.intl=us
> http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/shortguide2.htm
> http://www.jancso.ch/klavierhersteller.htm
> http://sandiegopianotuning.com/manufacturers.htm
> http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=%22bernhard+steiner%22+samick+-%22michael+sayers%22&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&b=21&u=www.tjancso.com/4602.html&w=%22bernhard+steiner%22+samick&d=60FD25E7BA&icp=1&.intl=us
No source for this information is given in even one of these
documents.
> Hope that helps!
It doesn't help, since a collection of self-referencing internet
documents is not useful for research purposes. They recent ones
probably just googled to find the other pages, and the earlier ones
(or the first one) probably relied on some misinformed source for the
data.
None of them states a source...to figure out something like this,
requires active and thorough research, not just internet searching.
The court decision specifically states that Bernhard Steiner was
founded by Kahn's family in Europe in 1886, and has been in the family
ever since. It also states that Ivan Kahn is a fourth-generation
master piano craftsman and rebuilder.
That finalizes the matter, since you haven't been able to show that
this judge issues inaccurate decisions, and since you haven't been
able to find any evidence whatsoever to suggest that the history of
Kahn's family and Bernhard Steiner Pianos, is not accurate as
portrayed in that one specific decision.
The discussion is now over. Everything that either side can say,
without some intensive research, has been said. The discussion has
annoyed many readers at r.m.m.p. due to this thing called "repetition
fatigue". We should stop now, and not annoy them further.
They might be interested in the findings of some new research. But
reposting the same old links and arguments over and over and over, I
think does wear on them.
Just becase we find it interesting, doesn't mean we should be clogging
up the board with these messages. There is nothing new to add at this
time - so the readers should be left to draw their own conclusions, if
they want to.
Feel free to email me privately, if you sincerely want to discuss
these subjects further. I have been enough of a nuisance posting on
this thread: please don't continue to be a nuisance yourself, by
posting about it in the effort to get me to continue to post.
I think people are tired of reading about it. There is a point of
diminishing return. A Charlie Chaplin movie isn't necessarily as
entertaining on the 100th viewing, as on the 1st viewing.
This has been going on for at least two weeks now - and I don't see
how it would be productive to talk about it forever. Someone,
somewhere, has to draw the line. Right now, I am that person, and I
am drawing the line.
The "fun" for you, as you so described it, is over.
get real
wrote:
>get real <suedo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ajdam0l9n3ulr7m91...@4ax.com>...
It doesn't help you because you are insane and a wannabe thief. But it
helps anyone who does a google search for BS in consideration of
buying your piece of drek. Forgive me for not wasting time replying to
the remainder of your nonsense.
Larry
>This doesn't mention anything at all about Bernhard Steiners being
>stencil Samicks, or state that Bernhard Steiner pianos are made by
>Samick,
Would you care to explain why a manufacturer liquidating pianos would be
liquidating pianos built by someone else?
>c) it does not detail what Bernhard Steiner models are being referred to
So what? It proves that Samick built Bernhard Steiners. Otherwise, they
wouldn't have a bunch to get rid of. The fact that they didn't break it down by
model is meaningless. ALL models of Bernhard Steiner are Samicks.
>d) Bechstein pianos, which also are listed, are not made by Samick
First, they didn't list any Bechsteins, they listed Hoffmanns. Second, Samick
owns an interest in Bechstein now, and as such now own an interest in the name
Hoffmann.
>FYI, the upright Bernhard Steiners are now made in South Africa
FYI, the South Africa "factory" (if one could call it that) has been closed for
years.
>I have communicated with a man who works in the factory in South
>Africa. The outfit there is headed by one of the Kahns....I think his name is
Bill Kahn.
Then you should be able to ask old Bill to provide us with proof to back up
your claims, huh? You're a liar, Sayer. The factory was a little two bit shop,
and it closed several years ago. You may have forgotten that one of the former
employees at that factory posts here from time to time, and he verified that no
grands were ever built there, only 2 sizes of verticals, and that the factory
closed.
Here's another source showing Bernhard Steiner is a Samick stencil:
http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/shortguide2.htm#Korean%20Pianos
And another one:
http://www.ptg.org/mfgrs.htm#S
And another:
http://www.pianoreports.org/Ratings/BabyGrands.html
Here's a good one! It's the Dallas/Fort Worth area Piano Directory. When it
gets to Kahn's and Bernhard Steiner, it says:...
"SEE SAMICK"..... bwahahahahaha!!!
http://kalmor.com/dealers.html
Even Kahn's admits they're Samicks!!!
Here's another page from their website, ranking Kahn's as a "minor player" in
the market.....
http://kalmor.com/dfwguide.html
Here's another page from it, showing Kahn's is a SAMICK DEALER:
http://kalmor.com/dealers.html
Here's a post to the Piano Technician's Guild by a technician in South Africa -
actually the same one I mentioned earlier that used to work at the Dietman
factory:
http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2001-March/083282.html
Note that the Bernhard Steiner name is nothing more than a name applied to
whatever piano they happen to be buying at the time, which in this case is
SAMICK.
Here's a messageboard post from a former Bernhard Steiner dealer correcting
Sayer after Sayer tried to pawn off his SAMICK on their messageboard:
http://www.bbdsedson.com/keyconnect/ontboard/Previous/messages/346.html
Proof that Sayer has been told repeatedly that his piano is a Samick, and he
simply is too stupid to accept it.
I could go on indefinitely, but what's the point? You have been told by no
telling how many people in positions to know that your piano is a Samick,
Sayer. You've been corrected by just about every possible source out there, as
well as old Ivan himself.
Your piano is a Samick. It's worth about 7 or 8K at this point. In the
condition it's in, probably half that.
Get over it.
Michael Sayers
If you genuinely want to discuss Bernhard Steiner pianos, or want
information about my pianistic history, you might want to at least
have not created the aura that your modus operandi in these
interactions is to do me some sort of harm, psychological if not also
physical. You might want to get a lawyer's advice concerning stalking
- especially wherein the internet is a tool of stalking - before you
go any further down your present path.
You also might want to read up on the behaviour characteristics of
trolls. These two apply distinctly to you:
1. people who are psychologically disturbed,
and seek to feel good by making other list
members feel bad.
Getreal, anyone who reads your posts unbiasedly, can see that you do
this. I don't even need to elaborate...."the worst banger in
Texas"....."your drek"...."your piece of drek"....."you little
twirp"....."a moron"....."wannabe thief"...."insane".....
2. people who pretend to be someone that
they are not - they create personae that you
think are real, but they know is fictitious.
Getreal, don't you remember when you claimed to be some sort of an
internationally famous concert pianist, with students calling you from
overseas for live phone consultations? You might deny this now, but
if the archives go back far enough, I should be able to dig up your
posts from a year or two ago.
If I claimed to be a world famous pianist, I would have to hide my
identity, because I would be telling a lie. But I just claim to be a
pianist who performs here or there - once or twice a year - and I
don't suggest that I have ever performed in places such as, say,
Carnegie Hall or Wigmore Hall. So, I don't have to lie.
You, on the other, do have to lie. The purpose of your lying is a
form of self-inflatement, so that you can make other people feel
diminished. The fact is, that your piano abilities are probably far
removed from being exeptional.
My abilities are exceptional, so I don't care if I am famous or not, I
don't mind from time-to-time making audio files of my recitals
available on the net, and I don't need fame as a butress to my
confidence or self-esteem....but your's are probably mediocre, and you
do need fame to butress your self-esteem, and you lie to create a
false effect on the internet. But when you sign off the net, the
truth is still there waiting for you.
It is okay to not be an exceptional pianist.......people go to bed
every night, not being an exceptional pianist, and they have their
piece of mind nonetheless. I think you are torturing yourself about
something unnecessarily - and, somehow, my peculiar traits of
obstinancy and persistence have brought this to the surface. I think
the notion that I might be a concert pianist (even if only a highly
semi-professional one), threatens your particular constructs in some
way.
Unless you learn to only worry about what is in your power to control,
you aren't going to be able to stop the self-torturing.
I am sure this post is going to fall on deaf ears....so, be sure in
your response to wail away, abuse, abuse, abuse.....after all, you
have an pseudo-ally in Larry Fletcher. Before abusing me in the past,
as in recent days, your procedure has been to wait for him to make the
first stab, and clear a path. Maybe you would listen to him if he
said to stop....I don't know.
I am not sure what is wrong with you, but I have the patience and
curiosity to see where it leads. Please don't stalk me illegally - as
in, making telephone calls to my relatives, or sending unnecessary
items in the regular mails. If you do that, I will feel compelled to
undertake lawful recourse. If you ever want to communicate privately,
we can - but it will have to be by email at the start, at the
confortable distance of one email at a time - no deluges, demands or
ultimatums. It also has to be sincere, honest and non-abusive. And,
of course, I would keep the emails 100% private.
Tony Elka
marson <p...@telstar.net> wrote:
> Mr. Sayers - I have followed these threads with
> an increasingly jaundiced interest. I don't intend
> to disclose anything about myself, except to say
> that I am a piano professional of some 30 years.
> I wil state without reservation that the piano you
> have is most certainly a Samick. You are causing
> yourself a great deal of public embarrassment by
> insisting that it is not. Everything this Larry per-
> son has said is true.
Quite true. But despite the fact that everything this "Larry person"
has said is true, he's still a blood clot.
Tony
Michael Sayers
I have analyzed the so-called "evidence" in your post. The refutation
will be typed and posted after today's piano practice. There are
numerous and obvious inaccuracies, omissions, distortions, and
erroneous inclusions + erroneous attributions/disattributions in the
various pages, as well as related questions concerning the owner of
each domain and/or the webmaster of each directory.
If you can't see at a glance what is wrong with those pages, then you
probably are just a 4th-6th rate piano dealer, who sold Kimballs and
Bosendorfers at one time, and who has little experience regulating,
tuning, practicing and performing on any of these pianos.
If in your judgment these pages are reliably researched, accurate,
complete, and without subjective biases, then I sincerely doubt that
you have professionally regulated even one Samick grand, or one
Bernhard Steiner grand, during your entire reign as a possibly 6th
rate Kimball/Bosendorfer dealer of the South.
Lets make it 12th rate.
Regards,
Michael Sayers
Larry
>I have analyzed the so-called "evidence" in your post. The refutation
>will be typed and posted after today's piano practice. There are
>numerous and obvious inaccuracies, omissions, distortions, and
>erroneous inclusions + erroneous attributions/disattributions in the
>various pages, as well as related questions concerning the owner of
>each domain and/or the webmaster of each directory.
There are no inaccuracies Sayer, and you know it. You have posted your Samick
for sale all over the internet, from here to every two bit messageboard you
could find that related to pianos. Everywhere you've posted, you have met with
people who know your piano is a Samick, and everywhere you've posted it someone
has pointed it out to you.
In every case, you have repeated your same little mantra about "German built",
"prototype", "46,000$ from the factory", and all your other stupid lies. Every
time, someone with experience in the piano industry has told you better. You
have been provided evidence from literally hundreds of sources. The fact that
your piano is a Samick worth less than 10K has been established as fact more
solidly than gravity.
You can attack my place in the world of pianos all you want - quite a few
people here, and at several of those other sites you tried to con people into
buying your piano on know me, and know better. The fact is that at this point
it wouldn't matter if I was a janitor in Kalamazoo - you have had your claims
refuted by the top sources in the industry. You've even had your sources
refuted by old Ivan Kahn himself. We've had, in the previous round of suffering
through your madness, one of the main employees at the African factory post
refuting your claims - a man who worked there for several years, and knows what
is built there, and where your piano was built. I have been in email contact
with the author of your single supporting piece of evidence, the Texas Handbook
of Piano Manufacture, who is in the process of correcting the errors in his
handbook. He is quite a gentleman, wanting only accurate information in his
handbook, and has acknowledged the error. You'll be seeing the changes shortly,
if not already. Unlike you, he is an educated man, a sane individual whose only
interest is having the facts.
The simple fact is this - you are a mentally deranged wannabe. You have never
amounted to a damned thing, and you hide the fact that you aren't capable of
even making a living behind a facade of puffed up visions of grandeur, telling
yourself and everyone around you what an accomplished pianist you are, what a
great piano you have, and on and on. You are such low self esteem that you
cannot bring yourself to admit that your piano is just an average mass produced
piano, any more than you can admit that your piano skills fall somewhere around
Freshman year college preparatory level.
I have no doubt that you will continue to ignore the points you can't refute,
and twist logic on its ear to prove your point with yet another list of
schizophrenic perversions of things. It makes no difference at this point - you
have been shown to be either a complete idiot and loser, or mentally deranged,
or a stubborn asshole wannabe, or a total con man, or all of the above. One
thing you are NOT - is a rational, sane individual.
So post your "refutations", Sayer. Show us once again how mentally deficient
you are. And I will continue to show your errors and pester the hell out of you
until you shut up and go away. I can't protect the readers of any of the other
messageboards you litter, nor do I have any desire to try. But I frequent this
place on occasion, have a nearly 10 year history with the place, and I care
about what kind of information is presented here. I don't like seeing innocent
people who come here thinking this is a good place to get information on pianos
being screwed by dishonest con men like you. When I find someone trying it, I
correct them. When I find someone who is not only polluting the information
pool but the gene pool as well, I do all I can to flush you out.
You have been flushed.
Dave Tempo
right!
"Michael Sayers" <mjs1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:219226cd.04100...@posting.google.com...
get real
wrote:
What makes you think I have any interest in "discussing" BS pso's? I
am only interested in YOU ceasing and desisting in misrepresenting
them with the idea in mind of ripping someone off.
Michael Sayers
If you genuinely want to discuss Bernhard Steiner pianos, or want
information about my pianistic history, you might want to at least
have not created the aura that your modus operandi in these
interactions is to do me some sort of harm, psychological if not also
physical. You might want to get a lawyer's advice concerning stalking
- especially wherein the internet is a tool of stalking - before you
go any further down your present path.
You also might want to read up on the behaviour characteristics of
trolls. These two apply distinctly to you:
1. people who are psychologically disturbed,
and seek to feel good by making other list
members feel bad.
Getreal, anyone who reads your posts unbiasedly, can see that you do
this. I don't even need to elaborate...."the worst banger in
Texas"....."your drek"...."your piece of drek"....."you little
twirp"....."a moron"....."wannabe thief"...."insane"....."poor
mikey"...."your poor, diseased brain".....
Radu Focshaner
"get real" <suedo...@hotmail.com>
> What makes you think I have any interest in "discussing" BS pso's? I
> am only interested in YOU ceasing and desisting in misrepresenting
> them with the idea in mind of ripping someone off.
Every time someone advertises a piano for sale on this ng he is usually
warned that
1.this ng is not the proper place for advertising
2.the chances to sell a piano via this ng are practically nil.
So... why this SERIOUS concern about Michael Sayers ripping someone off ?
Did it ever happen on this ng ?
Oh... yes... you are right ... it happened. A valuable contributor , who's
hobby is to restore pianos, sold (via Ebay) a piano to another valuable
contributor (who happens to be a piano technician too...)
The story of Victor and Luella....(handkerchiefs might be handy)
-----
Luella Kohler:
I really believed Victor would sell me the piano as advertised.
I have proof that the piano is not as described. I trusted you, Victor,
which was a HUGE mistake. I wrote to you, telling you I was interested,
asking what's wrong with the piano and why you were selling it so cheap.
You said: "It's not cheap, the reserve is just set a little low to get
bidders interested. I hope it will go for a lot more than the reserve. If I
had to identify flaws, I would say that the action is on the heavy side, the
hammers could be voiced down, and a picky pianist might want a regulation.
The piano has very good power, and the tone is sweet. For $6500, it's a
steal. For $13,000 it's still a very good deal."
I've told the truth, admitted my huge error in judgment in order to warn
others about doing the same. People can read for themselves. I learned of
you here, mistakenly attached respect to you and your work, and when you had
a piano that fit my criteria of what I wanted, I bought it. I trusted you
because of your posts on this newsgroup. You seemed like a friendly
curmudgeonly tech who knew his stuff and wouldn't pass off a piece of
dogmeat for a piano. I learned differently.
It costs $15,000 to rebuild a piano. Refurbish mean to fix the broken
stuff,make it go, and replace worn parts but not everything. In your ad you
said the piano was just like two you'd sold for twice the price. That is
$13,000, not $17,000. In a letter to my charge card CO, you told them the
piano is worth $10,000. It has been stated by two respected rebuilders who
have seen the piano that it is ready for rebuilding and as it sits, is worth
$2500.
So Victor, I'm ready to ask again. Please take back the piano and refund my
money. I am willing to set up an escrow account and to pay the Ebay fee you
paid when the piano sold.
Luella Kohler, RPT
Los Paraguayos, CA
Victor:
Here are some things to think about:
Luella is an adult and supposedly an experienced technician.
No experienced technician in his right mind would hope to buy a perfect
Krakauer grand piano for $6,500, particularly from another knowledgeable
seller.
No experienced technician would ever recommend that anyone buy a piano sight
unseen.
It has been stated here quite often that the cost to refurbish a grand is
about $15,000. If the grand itself cost $2,500 unrefurbished, then a
knowledgeable buyer might expect to pay $17,500 for the piano which sold at
auction for $6,500. Did Luella expect me to sell her a $17,500 piano for
$6,500?
Miles Donovan:
I've seen the piano in question in this dispute between Victor and Luella,
a 5'7" or so Krakauer from the 1920's. I'm speaking for myself here.
Luella
is a friend of mine, Victor I've never met and do not know other than from
this newsgroup. Although I rebuild pianos I don't consider myself Victor's
competition. He is in Pittsburgh, I'm in California. We're too far apart
geographically to be competitors (at least in my opinion).
It would take a great stretch of the imagination to say that the piano was
exactly as described in the eBay auction. It's been six or seven months
since I read Victor's description in eBay so I don't remember everything
that he said, however I do remember that the description specifically said
"recently rebuilt" and spoke in glowing terms about the finish and
appearance of the piano. When I went to Luella's apartment and looked at
the piano last December I recognized at once that this was not "recently
rebuilt" - my estimate was rebuilt about 25 to 30 years ago. Further
examination revealed an April 1971 date stamped on the bottom of the
pinblock, a note dated in April of 1971 in the action regarding the hammer
installation, and several other dates pointing to April 1971. I think that
my estimate was borne out by these items as well as by the
amount of corrosion and wear. I hardly think that rebuilt 30 years ago
could be considered "recently rebuilt". Victor when confronted by Luella in
an email about this amended "recently rebuilt" to "recently rebuilt compared
to the age of the piano". I'd call that an admission by Victor that he
misrepresented the piano. The appearance did not come anywhere near
Victor's description. The finish was old and oxidized. It was for the most
part the gun finish: sprayed on but not rubbed out. The lid had split into
two pieces and had been glued back together with the seam prominently
visible across the width of the lid. In spite of the soundboard being
replaced when it was rebuilt and having adequate crown it did not sound
good - a flat colorless sound overall, dead bass strings. Larry's
assessment - it's due for another rebuild and worth at most $2500 - is the
same as mine.
This isn't a piano that a little regulation and voicing is going to make any
significant improvement on. Assuming "competent individual" to be a
technician or rebuilder, I can't imagine any competent tech or rebuilder
considering this piano to be worth $6500 or willing to pay that much for it.
I certainly wouldn't. Again Larry's figure of $2500 maximum is about it.
Victor's offer was to take the piano back, put it up for sale again and
reimburse Luella after the piano was resold. Who would consider this an
acceptable offer? After all Victor would then have Luella's money as well
as the piano and very little motivation to move in an expeditious manner.
Luella would be without her money and no piano, even an unsatisfactory one,
and no leverage with Victor being 8000 miles away.
I think Victor should do the responsible thing and take the piano back and
refund Luella's money with some compromise between the two on shipping
costs. Sure, Luella made a serious mistake buying this sight unseen, however
she did do this based on the impression of competency and
straightforwardness that Victor has created in this newsgroup plus Victor's
assurances about the piano.
Finally while "caveat emptor" is valid advice for anyone making a purchase,
it is not in my opinion an ethical principle for a vendor to use in selling
his wares to his customers.
The Masked Terror:
Victor is a regular here and has posted for-sale ads here. Luella who bought
the piano in question...is also a regular.
If sales are being consummated because of this newsgroup I would think the
good or bad outcome of these sales would be important to future shoppers who
come here for guidance. I don't know who's right or wrong in the current
situation but the
credibility of the regular posters who offer professional advice would IMHO
certainly be on topic.
As LionHeart points out...people have been reading this thread and I'm
betting that they are wondering what the credibility level of piano sales
people might be.
--- The END ---
Radu Focshaner
"Radu Focshaner" <ra...@writeme.com> wrote in message
> A valuable contributor , who's hobby is
Sorry for this terrible mistake... sorry for my terrible English...I am so
ashamed of my self.... From now on I shall post in Romanian only. Not that
my Romanian is better... but you'll never know...
Traiasca PCR !
Traiasca RSR !
Traiasca Ceausescu !
Radu Focshaner
news:20041007202527...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Here's a messageboard post from a former Bernhard Steiner dealer
correcting
> Sayer after Sayer tried to pawn off his SAMICK on their messageboard:
> http://www.bbdsedson.com/keyconnect/ontboard/Previous/messages/346.html
> Proof that Sayer has been told repeatedly that his piano is a Samick, and
he
> simply is too stupid to accept it.
I wonder why Peter Etheridge (aka JBY' slayer) posted
(see
http://www.bbdsedson.com/keyconnect/ontboard/Previous/messages/295.html )
on a message board where the contributors have screen names like:
viagra juan, free rape movies, mom and son incest, cartoon rape, japanese
rape
(see
http://www.bbdsedson.com/keyconnect/ontboard/Previous/messages/299.html)
Radu Focshaner
"pat marson" <p...@telstar.net> wrote > Mr. Sayers - I have followed these
threads with
> an increasingly jaundiced interest.
Uh... newbie to english...
Please do tell which one applies:
jaundiced
Synonyms: biased, bigoted, bitter, colored, cynical, disapproving,
distorted, envious, grudging, hostile, intolerant, jealous, one-sided,
opprobrious, partial, partisan, preconceived, prejudiced, prepossessed,
resentful, skeptical, spiteful, suspicious, tendentious, unfair, unfriendly,
unindifferent, warped, yellow
> I don't intend
> to disclose anything about myself, except to say
> that I am a piano professional of some 30 years.
What are you affraid of ? Why blocking google to archive your posts ? Every
newsreader keeps the downloaded post on the personal computer.
> I wil state without reservation that the piano you
> have is most certainly a Samick.
Why ?
Radu Focshaner
"Michael Sayers" <mjs1...@yahoo.com> wrote
> If you can't see at a glance what is wrong with those pages, then you
> probably are just a 4th-6th rate piano dealer, who sold Kimballs and
> Bosendorfers at one time, and who has little experience regulating,
> tuning, practicing and performing on any of these pianos.
While you are able of sublime replies, this one is ugly, DIRTY !. Michael,
you should not resort to name calling and insults. YOU are not JBY !
Tom Shaw
TSnews:2stbotF...@uni-berlin.de...