I just bought a Kawai NS-20A. Was I suckered to buy a piano w/ ABS?
Brett Leida
- 6000, Yamaha U1, Boston, Young Chang) and I came across a used Yamaha
U1 (~20 yrs old) at a piano sale. This sale is one of these marketing
gimmicks where a dealer has "donated" all these pianos to some school,
performance center, etc. for a year or two and then sells the pianos
during some crazy weekend. This particular one was happening at the New
England Conservatory. I learned from a friend's father who is a piano
salesman how these things work. Typically, maybe 10% of the pianos have
actually been at the school. The rest are brand new and have been moved
there from the store/wharehouse and the salespeople make the shoppers
think they are buying something 1 year old (discounted big-time) that
has been kept in mint condition. I didn't know this until I went to the
sponsoring dealer's showroom and they had only 2 pianos there. The
salesman at the store told me, "you came at a bad time. All the pianos
were moved over to the conservatory for the piano sale." Quite a ruse.
In any case, I planned to go back to the sale at the end of the last day
and make an offer for the U1. They were asking $4200 for the Yamaha,
which I found out is a bit high. But when I got there, the U1 that I had
played was sold and they had two others which were in worse condition.
The action was good, but the sound was very mushy. The salesman started
telling me how I could have the hammers filed or lacquered. So, it
seemed that this U1 would not be the best deal unless I could really
chew them down. I started playing the other pianos there and came across
the NS-20A. I found its action very responsive, but not light or bouncy
and the sound was pleasantly mellow, unlike the Baldwin. So, I found
that this piano fit my needs from the sound and feel perspective. They
had been selling these in both black and mahogany. They were asking
$6150 for the black and $6850 for the mahogany ($9300 list I am told). I
actually wanted a black piano, so paying more for the fancy finish was
not what I wanted. I figured that they wanted to move this, so I offered
$5700 and they took it. Tax and delivery took it to $6160. I thought
this over for a while (meantime the "sale" had closed over an hour ago),
made a couple calls to find out if I was crazy (1 yes, 1 no), and
eventually went back in and bought it. So, can anyone let me know if
this is a reasonable price? Obviously, I thought it was reasonable
enough to buy it. I'm just wondering if this is at the low or high end
of the scale.
Also, what are people's sentiments on the no-it's-not-plastic ABS that
they use in the action? Kawai gives a lifetime parts and labor warranty
on this stuff (10 yrs on the rest of the piano). Of course competing
salespeople call it plastic junk, and the Kawai salesman twisted it into
some actual improvement to the piano, saying that this won't harden and
crack like plastic used on older pianos and that it won't swell/shrink
with changes in the weather. He said something to the effect, "having
the ABS on the Kawai is like having anti-lock brakes and air bags on a
car, and the other cars without it just can't compare/compete. So, they
just bad-mouth it." So, is this stuff in the piano an asset or a
liability?
Last question, can I expect this piano (assuming it's properly
maintaind) to appreciate or depreciate with time?
Thanks for your help.
Brett Leida
ble...@earthlink.net
Rick Clark
might find in 40 years you get back the price you paid, but adjusting
for inflation, that's still depreciated.
RC
b...@thepianosource.com
is every bit as good as you are told. It will help control swelling
and fluctuations, will require less maintenance than the traditional
wood. Don't listen to others who now are just trying to kill the deal
you made and make you feel like you made a mistake. Sorry you had to
spend half your original posting knocking the college sales. The fact
remains you got a good deal, had several choices, all of which might
not have happened in a small store. It's a shame you feel that you
were "suckered" because you are probably going to always feel that
way no matter what anyone says.
--
Bob S - - Formerly of Atlanta and now in So Florida
For the answers to many of your
piano buying questions, please see
http://www.thepianosource.com
Raisindot
>you made and make you feel like you made a mistake. Sorry you had to
>spend half your original posting knocking the college sales. The fact
>remains you got a good deal, had several choices, all of which might
>not have happened in a small store. It's a shame you feel that you
>were "suckered" because you are probably going to always feel that
>way no matter what anyone says.
>--
>Bob S
I'm afraid to say I disagree. I was at this same sale (what can I say? I'm
just get hooked on these so-called "non-dealer" events that features lots of
pianos at "great prices") and saw the same Kawai pianos. Some of their prices
were simply outrageous--for example, over $4,500 for a 25-year old Yamaha U1.
Knowing from past experience which Kawais I like,, I zeroed in on the UST-8C.
They had two of these "institutional" pianos (a euphemism for "used," as far as
I'm concered) in a color I didn't really like that they were willing to
"sacrifice" for $4,000, plus delivery plus MA taxes. I told them I needed to
think about it and got the old "you oughta do this today--you'll never see this
price anywhere again in your lifetime."
I went home and called up a well known dealer in NH to see if they were willing
to match this "never-again" price. Not only were they willing to beat the
price, but it was a NEW UST-8C in my choice of colors. And, this company would
deliver it and throw in two tunings at no extra charge.
I also re-checked (and fell in love with again) the NS-20A, a truly wonderful
piano in every way. A few months ago I got a price quote from this same NH
dealer that ended up being several hundred dollars lower than the institutional
sale's "one-time-only price." Including delivery. If I get a bonus this year,
I think I've decided what I'm going to be spending some of it on .
The point here being that you can easily get "suckered" by any kind of "sale"
if you don't do your homework first. My suggestion for those who want to see
what they can pick up at these sales is to:
1. Do a lot research on the brand or models you like so you'll be able to focus
when you get there.
2. Go on the first day (usually a "by appointment" day) of the sale
3. Get the best price you can on something you like. Get it in writing if you
can. Promise that if you come back you'll speak to the same salesperson (after
all, if they've spent the time with you, they do deserve the commission)
4. Go home and see if any local area dealers will match that price for a new
piano.
5. If other places do, and you're still interested in the institutional pianos,
go back to the sale the next day (or, preferably, on the last day, when they'll
be really trying hard to unload what they've got) and make an offer that's
significantly below the best local dealer price you got. If they take it,
you'll save a lot (but you also need to make sure the company running the sale
is legit--ask them tough questions about service, warrantees, etc.). If they
don't take it, you can either buy the new one at a local dealer or wait for the
next institutional sale. Why should you have to rush into one of the biggest
purchasing decisions you'll ever make?
That's just my .02 worth. Your mileage will vary.
Jeff
rais...@aol.com
b...@thepianosource.com
>
>
>I'm afraid to say I disagree. I was at this same sale (what can I say? I'm
>just get hooked on these so-called "non-dealer" events that features lots of
>pianos at "great prices") and saw the same Kawai pianos.
Is it possible that you are "known" to the people operating these
sales and you end up getting treated like a non-buyer, tire kicker,
waster of the salesman's time? After all you mention how you are
hooked on these events, obviously have shopped a lot of them, and
still don't have a piano --- at least you don't mention buying one but
talk about what you may do in the future.
I don't want to offend you, but these events are clearly advertised as
selling events, not looking events, not expos, not shows, but places
where real people spend real money and buy something. I don't work
them anymore, but I remember when I did, it didn't take long to figure
out who was and who was not there to buy and who was there to consume
the salesman's time who is , after all, working on commission. Whether
you like that or not, that is reality and no worse than someone
consuming your time on your job when there is a lot of pressure on you
to do something else. I remember 1 couple in particular that not only
did I wait on them at Armory sales in Washington and Annapolis but
saw them at a Richmond sale in a 4 week period, and then again a year
later saw them in Washington and Annapolis. You want the best price,
then you really got to give someone who is in the position to give you
that price the feeling that you are indeed buying.
Trey Behan
>I don't want to offend you, but these events are clearly advertised as
>selling events, not looking events, not expos, not shows, but places
>where real people spend real money and buy something. I don't work
>them anymore, but I remember when I did, it didn't take long to figure
>out who was and who was not there to buy and who was there to consume
>the salesman's time who is , after all, working on commission. Whether
>you like that or not, that is reality and no worse than someone
>consuming your time on your job when there is a lot of pressure on you
>to do something else.
Thank you, Bob.
The piano stores which co-sponsor these events are generally open 52 weeks a
year for browsing, dreaming, and "getting a piano education." The only people
who belong at an event advertised as a "sale" are those who have already done
these things and are actually IN THE MARKET TO BUY. If you're NOT, and make a
habit of haunting these events, expect serious attention only from the most
persistent or inexperienced of salespeople---the kind you probably dislike
most. The others will be doing their best to serve CUSTOMERS in good faith
within a limited time frame.
I also do not wish to offend: If this does not apply to your shopping
intentions, my apologies.
Trey
Raisindot
My god, what do you think I am, some sort of pianistic gadlfy? :)
In reality, I have only been to three of these events, sponsored by two
different stores. So, no, no one knows me. And, no, I don't walk in just to
browse--I know which models or brands I like, and my budget, so I waste no
salesperson's time.
My warnings about not committing to sale that same day are based on my
experiences at these "out of store" events, where I have discovered that:
1. The "amazing prices" some of these events offer are not always that amazing,
especially when you compare it with what you can get at other dealers.
2. Sometimes the salespeople totally misinform the consumer about the pianos
being sold.
Case 1 I've already covered in a previous message.
Case 2 is reinfornced by a "warehouse sale" I attended last summer featuring
pianos of a different brand that I like as much if not better than Kawai (I'll
give you a hint--Kawai manufactures them under the engineering standards of a
very prestigious piano maker in its own right, and sold under an
American-souding name).
Anyway, ansering a direct mail solicitation, I went to this event that
advertised these as "new pianos at amazing never to be seen again prices." I
saw one of the models I liked. I asked the salesperson, who was quite
experienced and worked for the local dealer sponsoring the sale (instead of the
very unknowledgeable stringers who were imported from as far away as California
for the Kawai institutional sale) three times whether these pianos were brand
new, and never used before, and he assured that they were. I still felt that
the price wasn't that much different from what these models sold for in the
store, so I didn't make an offer that day.
A month later, I received another advertisement of a "never again sale" of the
same brand from the same dealer. These pianos were advertised as having been
"on tour at different sales events around the country and retired from music
festivals." Thinking that maybe I'd get an even better price on these "used"
pianos, I went to the sale. To no great surprise, these pianos were offered at
prices that were EXACTLY THE SAME as the pianos I had been told were UNUSED and
BRAND NEW at the previous "never again" sale. I asked specifically why "new"
and "used" pianos were being sold at THE SAME PRICE, and I was told that THESE
WERE THE SAME PIANOS.. Meaning, that the experienced, store-employed
salesperson at the first sale was trying to pass off these "well-traveled"
pianos as NEW and UNUSED. When I pressed them on this discrepancy, they went
into a mumbo jumbo of denial and half-assed apology--but they didn't budge at
all on the price.
And, mind you, this from one of the Boston-area's most highly respected
dealerships.
So, when I warn people not to necessarily trust these "incredible sales," I'm
not advocating browsing (which I wouldn't do--if I had honestly found the piano
I wanted at the price I wanted, and I totally trusted that the sponsoring
dealer was telling the truth, I would have signed the line on either occasion).
Yet, had I signed the line at either of these "sales," I would have been ripped
off.
Doesn't that give me a right to be suspicious and to warn unsuspecting
consumers that they need to do their homework BEFORE they attend these events
and commit that day unless they're sure that everything (price, service, etc.)
meets their requirements?
Jeff
Frank Weston
Raisindot <rais...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981120085839...@ng24.aol.com>...
Stuff deleted.....
>
> So, when I warn people not to necessarily trust these "incredible sales,"
I'm
> not advocating browsing (which I wouldn't do--if I had honestly found the
piano
> I wanted at the price I wanted, and I totally trusted that the sponsoring
> dealer was telling the truth, I would have signed the line on either
occasion).
>
>
> Yet, had I signed the line at either of these "sales," I would have been
ripped
> off.
> Doesn't that give me a right to be suspicious and to warn unsuspecting
> consumers that they need to do their homework BEFORE they attend these
events
> and commit that day unless they're sure that everything (price, service,
etc.)
> meets their requirements?
>
Jeff you have to take a little responsibility as a consumer. It's
exceedingly naive to believe that any "incredible sale", is going to offer
pianos at a drastically reduced price, or even a reduced price. Logically,
why would dealers loan pianos to schools so the schools could use them and
then allow the dealers to sell them for less than they could be sold for
unused? Dealers are in business to make a profit, and all the special
school, armory, closing warehouse, moving store, etc. sales are just ploys
to get buyers in the door. Don't be offended by them, just recognize them
for what they are and use them to further your own piano purchasing agenda
without complaining.
My favorite ploy is the one used by a local dealer who advertises huge
school sales with used Steinways listed prominently among pianos offered.
This dealer does not sell Steinway, but has one old, beat Steinway grand
that he drags from sale to sale. He knows that the name Steinway will get
people in the door. He also knows that no one in their right mind would
buy his Steinway, and he has no desire to sell it anyway.
Another local dealer is famous for losing the lease on his stores. This
poor guy gets kicked out of a store once every three months, which gives
him the opportunity to have a big "store closing" sale with the same
frequency.
Are these people dishonest, or are they just trying very hard to sell
pianos? It depends on your perspective. In any case, ill-informed bargain
hunters are their natural prey. And, as in nature, your warnings, like the
squealing of a rabbit caught by a fox, won't keep the next rabbit from
being caught just as easily. Pre-apologies to any tree-huggers out there
if the analogy offends.
Frank Weston
VOCE88
>consumers that they need to do their homework BEFORE they attend these events
>and commit that day unless they're sure that everything (price, service,
>etc.)
>meets their requirements?
>
>Jeff
>
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
1 800 394 1117
Raisindot
> It's
>exceedingly naive to believe that any "incredible sale", is going to offer
>pianos at a drastically reduced price, or even a reduced price. Logically,
>why would dealers loan pianos to schools so the schools could use them and
>then allow the dealers to sell them for less than they could be sold for
>unused? Dealers are in business to make a profit, and all the special
>school, armory, closing warehouse, moving store, etc. sales are just ploys
>to get buyers in the door. Don't be offended by them, just recognize them
>for what they are and use them to further your own piano purchasing agenda
>without complaining.
Exceedingly naive in YOUR OPINION, as a person who may or may not be employed
by the industry, or at least an experienced piano consumer.. On the other hand,
I think it's perfectly understandable for someone to believe, when they receive
one of these invitations advertising "huge savings" that they are going to get
a great deal.
Unfortunately, too many of these folks end up paying too much, like the poor
fellow who overpaid (in my opinion, backed by my own price-research for the
same model) ) for this institutional Kawai NS-20A.
In any case, your argument that I shouldn't expect more significant savings at
these events makes no sense. For all I know, the dealer sponsors deducted the
initial "donation" of these pianos from their taxes and are reselling them to
have their cake and eat it, too. I don't know enough about the industry to
understand how these things work. And, frankly, I don't care.
But what I can tell you is that, in my definition, an "institutional" piano is
a "used" piano--potentially played by hundreds of sloppy sophomores and stored
in a steam room, for all I know. And, therefore, if one believes in the
principles of the marketplace, it isn't "naive" for myself (and anyone else who
visits these events) to believe I should be able pay significantly less than I
would to buy the same model brand new. If I do get suckered, yes, absolutely
that's my fault. Which is the point of my initial message--to share my
experience with others, who can see it as a warning not to believe the hype.
They can take it or leave it as they wish.
Imagine if you went to a car dealer looking for a great deal on a car that had
been a rental or lease car for a year. Imagine then that the dealer claimed he
was selling these at great prices. Imagine your dismay once you signed the
purchase papers to discover that you were paying the same--or more--than it
would cost to buy the same car (say, a leftover model on the lot that hadn't
been driven at all) new. Wouldn't you be p.o.'d at the deception?
>Jeff you have to take a little responsibility as >a consumer.
I totally agree. That's why I posted my "advice" in the first place--meant
purely as advice to people who might be tempted by similar sales events.
>And, as in nature, your warnings, like the
>squealing of a rabbit caught by a fox, won't keep the next rabbit from
>being caught just as easily.
If some of those "rabbits" happen to log on to alt.bunny and saw a message
there that provided advice on fox-evasion written by a march hare who almost
got his tail nipped twice, and that message keeps the "naive" rabbit's tail out
of the fox's jaws, then I'd say that's a valuable service, even if it's only
an opinion.
Jeff
pTooner
Frank Weston wrote:
> Raisindot <rais...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19981120085839...@ng24.aol.com>...
>
> Stuff deleted.....
> >
> > So, when I warn people not to necessarily trust these "incredible sales,"
> I'm
> > not advocating browsing (which I wouldn't do--if I had honestly found the
> piano
> > I wanted at the price I wanted, and I totally trusted that the sponsoring
> > dealer was telling the truth, I would have signed the line on either
> occasion).
> >
> >
> > Yet, had I signed the line at either of these "sales," I would have been
> ripped
> > off.
> > Doesn't that give me a right to be suspicious and to warn unsuspecting
> > consumers that they need to do their homework BEFORE they attend these
> events
> > and commit that day unless they're sure that everything (price, service,
> etc.)
> > meets their requirements?
> >
>
> Jeff you have to take a little responsibility as a consumer. It's
> exceedingly naive to believe that any "incredible sale", is going to offer
> pianos at a drastically reduced price, or even a reduced price. Logically,
> why would dealers loan pianos to schools so the schools could use them and
> then allow the dealers to sell them for less than they could be sold for
> unused? Dealers are in business to make a profit, and all the special
> school, armory, closing warehouse, moving store, etc. sales are just ploys
> to get buyers in the door. Don't be offended by them, just recognize them
> for what they are and use them to further your own piano purchasing agenda
> without complaining.
>
> My favorite ploy is the one used by a local dealer who advertises huge
> school sales with used Steinways listed prominently among pianos offered.
> This dealer does not sell Steinway, but has one old, beat Steinway grand
> that he drags from sale to sale. He knows that the name Steinway will get
> people in the door. He also knows that no one in their right mind would
> buy his Steinway, and he has no desire to sell it anyway.
>
> Another local dealer is famous for losing the lease on his stores. This
> poor guy gets kicked out of a store once every three months, which gives
> him the opportunity to have a big "store closing" sale with the same
> frequency.
>
> Are these people dishonest, or are they just trying very hard to sell
> pianos? It depends on your perspective. In any case, ill-informed bargain
> hunters are their natural prey. And, as in nature, your warnings, like the
> squealing of a rabbit caught by a fox, won't keep the next rabbit from
> being caught just as easily. Pre-apologies to any tree-huggers out there
> if the analogy offends.
>
> Frank Weston
I agree with all of that Frank, and it reminds me of an analogy we often make
on here. If you open any weekend newspaper you will find automobile dealers
offering new cars at or below invoice. They imply, or sometimes come out and
say that they are selling these cars for less than they pay for them. Now if
anyone really believes this, I have some waterfront property I want to show
you. Nevertheless, I hear people say they want the same information about
pianos that they have on cars. That same information that tells them that the
dealer loses money on every car he sells.
Gerry
>>I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions.
> >>
Al Stevens
pianos?
Yes and yes. The two are not mutually exclusive, so your Boolean "or" is
illogical. These people are dishonest because their come-on involves a very
specific deception, which Jeff, whom you suggested was "exceedingly naive,"
is warning about. And if you deny that, you are deceiving yourself.
Michael Johns
>Another local dealer is famous for losing the lease on his stores. This
>poor guy gets kicked out of a store once every three months, which gives
>him the opportunity to have a big "store closing" sale with the same
>frequency.
We have one of these. I understand they are moving across the street soon.
>
>Are these people dishonest, or are they just trying very hard to sell
>pianos? It depends on your perspective. In any case, ill-informed bargain
>hunters are their natural prey. And, as in nature, your warnings, like the
>squealing of a rabbit caught by a fox, won't keep the next rabbit from
>being caught just as easily. Pre-apologies to any tree-huggers out there
>if the analogy offends.
>
Yes they are being dishonest. When a local multi-location dealer has
a warehouse sale because they are closing the warehouse when it is
perfectly obvious they could sell the contents in their stores and
have two containers of pianos parked out back to bring into the
closing warehouse and they are marking prices down "FOURTY PERCENT"
they are being dishonest.
I went with no intent to buy. The sale had been going on for more than
a year. I didn't have much contact with the staff. If I had, I would
have attempted to dislodge them so I could go about the business of
browsing. If the salesman had "wasted his time" on me under those
conditions, I wouldn't have cried.
My limited experience has been, "piano salesmen are furniture salesmen."
Everything is always "on sale". I have a negotiation mode I reserve for
funiture salesmen. Like when one "went to ask the boss" I asked to
borrow their phone and called the other dealer who had given me a quote
on similar merchandise right from the show floor. Guilty? You jest.
It was a furniture store. If they didn't want me to do that they shouldn't
have "gone to ask the boss."
Quite frankly I find the "unhelpful" help at Guitar Center far easier
to accept.
Mike J.
Drew
you see it would be a single yes. Of course the question was not using a
Boolean or, just your common or garden ambiguous English.
Drew
Al Stevens wrote in message ...
>>Are these people dishonest, or are they just trying very hard to sell
>pianos?
>
Michael Johns
>I agree with all of that Frank, and it reminds me of an analogy we often make
>on here. If you open any weekend newspaper you will find automobile dealers
>offering new cars at or below invoice. They imply, or sometimes come out and
>say that they are selling these cars for less than they pay for them. Now if
>anyone really believes this, I have some waterfront property I want to show
>you. Nevertheless, I hear people say they want the same information about
>pianos that they have on cars. That same information that tells them that the
>dealer loses money on every car he sells.
Actually they do. The manufacturer pays them a bonus if they move enough
units. That is where the profit comes from.
You also might expect pianos in a warehouse with concrete floors with pianos
packed very close together could offer better then retail prices because
the realestate each piano is parked on is less valuable.
Mike Johns
Frank Weston
Al Stevens <alst...@midifitz.com> wrote in article
<o3m52.7647$Py3.1...@newscene.newscene.com>...
> >Are these people dishonest, or are they just trying very hard to sell
> pianos?
>
> Yes and yes. The two are not mutually exclusive, so your Boolean "or" is
> illogical. These people are dishonest because their come-on involves a
very
> specific deception, which Jeff, whom you suggested was "exceedingly
naive,"
> is warning about. And if you deny that, you are deceiving yourself.
>
Speaking of logic, I have trouble following your last sentence. If I deny
what? On the other hand, there is no doubt that I do frequently deceive
myself. I deceived myself just last night. At least I think I did. I'm
so good I never can tell.
As grown-ups we should be aware that the world is hard and full of tough
and nasty people. Your mother should have warned you and she probably did.
Maybe you forgot. Maybe she said something like:
"You never get something for nothing."
"There's no such thing as a free lunch."
"If something seems too good to be true, it is."
"You can't cheat an honest man."
Warnings come from elsewhere too. Your shady uncle probably said things
like:
"Never give a sucker an even break."
"There's a sucker born every minute."
"No one ever went broke underestimating the (insert word) of the American
People."
Our lexicon is so full of such aphorisms it is hard to imagine anyone
reaching adulthood without being fully and completely warned. But, if you
feel that it is necessary to go on the Internet and warn us all that
salesmen try to sell things, and sometimes they resort to hard tactics to
do so, then you must pardon me for mentioning the word naive.
Frank Weston - Graduate, Ross Perot School of Public Speaking
Frank Weston
Michael Johns <mjo...@enteract.com> wrote in article
<73506h$77n$1...@eve.enteract.com>...
> In article <3655D34E...@geddings.net>,
>
> >I agree with all of that Frank, and it reminds me of an analogy we often
make
> >on here. If you open any weekend newspaper you will find automobile
dealers
> >offering new cars at or below invoice. They imply, or sometimes come
out and
> >say that they are selling these cars for less than they pay for them.
Now if
> >anyone really believes this, I have some waterfront property I want to
show
> >you. Nevertheless, I hear people say they want the same information
about
> >pianos that they have on cars. That same information that tells them
that the
> >dealer loses money on every car he sells.
>
> Actually they do. The manufacturer pays them a bonus if they move enough
> units. That is where the profit comes from.
>
When car manufacturers sell cars to dealers, they "hold back" approximately
3% of the list price of the car to guarantee that the dealer will make good
on his financial arrangements. Invoice is typically about 88% of list plus
variable advertising fees. The dealer does pay invoice for the car, but
when the payments between dealer and manufacturer are finally closed
satisfactorily, the manufacturer pays the dealer the 3% holdback. Further,
dealers do get some incentives for moving units within certain time frames
and at certain volume levels. All of this adds up to the fact that if a
car is $30,000 sticker, invoice will be about $26,400, and the dealer will
get a holdback of about $900 plus the possibility of other incentives after
the car is sold. The equation is further complicated by the fact that in
order for a dealer to get certain very popular models that can be sold at
or above sticker, manufacturers frequently force dealers to take less
desirable models. By selling a less desirable car at near cost, the dealer
can earn a more desirable model which can be sold at great profit. Ain't
capitalism wonderful?
How do I know all this? I like to be an informed consumer, and I just
bought a truck. If people would take the time to learn a little about
pianos before buying, the volume of traffic on this news list would shrink
to half.
Frank Weston
Al Stevens
Drew wrote in message <735ev8$7dv$1...@nntp.gulfsouth.verio.net>...
>A boolean OR is not exclusive
No, Boolean logic includes both an exclusive "or" and an inclusive "or."
Computer languages use discreet operators to distinguish each.
> so the question is logical, the answer as
>you see it would be a single yes.
Unless the answer to both questions is "no" or the answer to both questions
is "yes." With a Boolean exclusive or, yes and yes equal no.
> Of course the question was not using a
>Boolean or, just your common or garden ambiguous English.
You have to use context to determine which "or" you are using with English
Frank's usage was clearly an exclusive or. Either one or the other and not
both is exclusive. Either one or the other or both is inclusive. Anything
else you want to know? :-)
Al Stevens
>Speaking of logic, I have trouble following your last sentence. If I deny
what?
That "These people are dishonest because their come-on involves a very
specific deception..."
Should have been obvious, but I'm happy to explain.
>On the other hand, there is no doubt that I do frequently deceive
>myself. I deceived myself just last night. At least I think I did. I'm
>so good I never can tell.
Who won? Sybil?
>As grown-ups we should be aware that the world is hard and full of tough
>and nasty people.
Disagree. The world is full of naive and good people with only a relatively
small number of tough and nasty people who consistently want to take
advantage of the good people. Then when the rare tough and good person tries
to intervene, others call him "naive." Makes no sense.
>Your mother should have warned you and she probably did.
I'm an orphan.
>But, if you feel that it is necessary to go on the Internet and warn us all
that salesmen try to sell things, and
>sometimes they resort to hard tactics to do so...
Sure, it's necessary, because those "hard tactics" (euphemism for
underhanded deceptions) obviously work; otherwise salespeople wouldn't keep
using them and would have to resort to--horrors--honesty.
pTooner
Michael Johns wrote:
> In article <3655D34E...@geddings.net>,
>
> >I agree with all of that Frank, and it reminds me of an analogy we often make
> >on here. If you open any weekend newspaper you will find automobile dealers
> >offering new cars at or below invoice. They imply, or sometimes come out and
> >say that they are selling these cars for less than they pay for them. Now if
> >anyone really believes this, I have some waterfront property I want to show
> >you. Nevertheless, I hear people say they want the same information about
> >pianos that they have on cars. That same information that tells them that the
> >dealer loses money on every car he sells.
>
> Actually they do. The manufacturer pays them a bonus if they move enough
> units. That is where the profit comes from.
>
> You also might expect pianos in a warehouse with concrete floors with pianos
> packed very close together could offer better then retail prices because
> the realestate each piano is parked on is less valuable.
>
> Mike Johns
My waterfront property is located in beautiful south Florida, and I'd love to make
an appointment to show it to you! ;-)))
Gerry
>>I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem.
> >>
Drew
Al Stevens wrote in message
>
>Drew wrote in message <735ev8$7dv$1...@nntp.gulfsouth.verio.net>...
>>A boolean OR is not exclusive
>
>No, Boolean logic includes both an exclusive "or" and an inclusive "or."
>Computer languages use discreet operators to distinguish each.
>
I think you will find that boolean logic define OR and XOR seperately ,
therefor a "booleean OR" is by definition inclusive,
>You have to use context to determine which "or" you are using with English
>Frank's usage was clearly an exclusive or. Either one or the other and not
>both is exclusive.
Exactly , which is what prompted me to post, you likened this use of 'or'
to a boolean OR when he was clearly using an exlusive 'or' ; a boolean XOR
Drew
Al Stevens
>>Computer languages use discreet operators to distinguish each.
>I think you will find that boolean logic define OR and XOR seperately ,
>therefor a "booleean OR" is by definition inclusive,
I will find that? I found it about 40 years ago. Would that it were not so,
that I found it so long ago. A Boolean OR (computerspeak) is inclusive, but
a Boolean "or" (peoplespeak) is not necessarily. OR and XOR are the discreet
computer language (BASIC, in this case) operators I referred to (I'm
capitalizing them to distinguish the operators from the spoken word,
although BASIC is not case-sensitive). They are still both "or" relations
when expressed in English. The traditional use of English "or" is exclusive.
It takes a few more words to put it into an inclusive context.
>Exactly , which is what prompted me to post,
Too hastily, I think.
>you likened this use of 'or' to a boolean OR when he was clearly using an
exlusive 'or' ; a boolean XOR
No, I likened it to a Boolean exclusive or, which is what it was. Need I say
it? There is no English word "xor." Surprise. I used the word "exclusive"
just ahead of the reference in the post. It should have been obvious.
Apparently not.
Using C operators:
// inclusive or
0|0=0
0|1=1
1|0=1
1|1=1
In English: It will snow today and/or it will rain today. So you see, there
is no English inclusive or. It is really and/or.
// exclusive or
0^0=0
0^1=1
1^0=1
1^1=0
In English: I will get lucky tonight or I will not get lucky tonight (can't
both be true; can't both be false).
Now if you still think that you need to explain Boolean logic to me, I leave
you to that opinion and yield the point. Would you care to discuss pianos
again?
Drew
that IMO your original use of the term "Boolean or" was not appropriate as
with out further qualification a Boolean 'or' is generally used to mean an
inclusive 'or' which clearly wasn't the case here.
You have obviously taken offense at this, for which I apologize.
With the current trend of over/mis use of buzz words I tend to get a bit
pedantic about the use of computing terms.
But anyway....back to more important things like pianos.....no more computer
speak ...its the weekend !
Drew
Alonzo Nesseler
Al Stevens wrote:
> Drew wrote in message <735ev8$7dv$1...@nntp.gulfsouth.verio.net>...
> >A boolean OR is not exclusive
>
> No, Boolean logic includes both an exclusive "or" and an inclusive "or."
> Computer languages use discreet operators to distinguish each.
>
Well, true and not true. ;-)
The default we comp sci folks use for "or" is always inclusive. Or always
means either or both. If we want an exclusive OR, we say so (XOR).
And we tend to annoy everyone in the world by interpreting OR in English to be
inclusive. Do you want the fish or the steak? Yes!
--
_______________
Alonzo Nesseler
Who has designed a built computer software for nearly thirty years now.
To reply, take the anti-spam xxx off the address
Trey Behan
>Sure, it's necessary, because those "hard tactics" (euphemism for
>underhanded deceptions) obviously work; otherwise salespeople wouldn't keep
>using them and would have to resort to--horrors--honesty.
It is highly amusing to me that "shoppers" (and experience teaches me to use
that term loosely) view salespeople with much more distrust than salespeople
view their customers. It is, sadly, even more amusing to see how much more
dishonest "shoppers" are than the salespeople I know.
Individuals posing as customers pester salespeople for "the best deal" on
something they've already bought to see if their private seller screwed them,
or to get competitive pricing on what they want to SELL. Churches demand
unlimited time and discounts on products they will never be able to afford,
since their BUSINESS OPERATIONS can't/won't absorb the overhead. Transactions
are "closed" to obtain sales invoices to shop to other dealers. The list of
subterfuges goes on ad nauseum.
A successful salesperson starts and stays with HONESTY, because long-term
success in this profession starts and stays with HONESTY. Unfortunately, an
honest salesperson gains over time the ability to spot a crook
(something-for-nothing artist) rather quickly.
Some salespeople are too busy serving legitimate buyers to waste their time on
persons of this ilk; others simply decide to fight fire with fire and take the
low road.
LISTEN UP: Pianos of all quality levels cost what they cost. If you're gonna
try to screw the house, expect the house to screw you...the odds are with them.
Your "bargain" probably isn't one, and the guy that purchased in good faith is
playing his high-quality, well-maintained piano while you're posting to this
newsgroup about whether you paid $5 too much for a run-out Kawai.
Flame away, them's my views.
Trey Behan
Your Name
says...
>
>
>
>How do I know all this? I like to be an informed consumer, and I just
>bought a truck. If people would take the time to learn a little about
>pianos before buying, the volume of traffic on this news list would shrink
>to half.
>
>Frank Weston
>
>>
>
rec.music.makers.piano was to HELP potential consumers get information from
experienced consumers and industry people to understand the labrynthian
process of buying a piano.
Personally, I find the many spirited discussions and debates about different
brands and models--especially when people like Dave Zappa air their views--and
the varying responses and advice to people's experiences in the stormy waters
of piano negotiations to be a lot more interesting than, say,
esoteric discourses about the history of the E# key. Not that I'd ever want to
"shrink the volume" of those kinds of questions--there's plenty of room for
all.
If everyone who came into this newsgroup was totally informed and already
owned a piano, the newsgroup would be as interesting as Thursday night at the
Faculty Club.
writenow
Al Stevens
sales organization is known to be maybe willing to sell for some unknown
number less than the one on the price tag, where a consumer cannot always
discern a used product from a new one and is generally uninformed about the
product's technology, and where there is an absense of recognized consumer
advocacy. (Ralph Nader never wrote a book about buying pianos.)
Al Stevens
>means either or both. If we want an exclusive OR, we say so (XOR).
To the computer, but not necessarily to one another and certainly not to
those who are not fluent in our jargon. To them we say, simply, "or" for XOR
and "and/or" for OR, an abomination contrived by someone because no word
exists to serve that specific meaning.
(Actually, I don't say AND, OR, or XOR anymore. I say &, |, and ^ for the
bitwise and && and || for the relational. Don't seem to have a relational
operator for XOR laying around here anywhere. Let's see:
#define xor(a,b) (((a)||(b))&&!((a)&&(b)))
To return to the musical purpose of this group, how about if we look for
Boolean song titles? I propose "But Not For Me."
Tom Shaw
advocacy.
TS
Frank Weston
Your Name <user...@shore.net> wrote
> Gee, Frank, I thought that one of the purposes of newsgroups such as
> rec.music.makers.piano was to HELP potential consumers get information
from
> experienced consumers and industry people ....
Dear Your Name,
1. Sign a real name unless you are wanted by the law.
2. The purpose of this newsgroup is entertainment. It entertains me to
attempt to educate naive consumers. Sometimes I have to be tough on them.
Apparently your entertainment is derived through anonymous sniping.
3. I don't want any less traffic on this newsgroup. I would prefer less
complaining.
Frank Weston
William Smithers
says...
>
>
>Exceedingly naive in YOUR OPINION, as a person who may or may not be employed
>by the industry, or at least an experienced piano consumer.. On the other
hand,
>I think it's perfectly understandable for someone to believe, when they
receive
>one of these invitations advertising "huge savings" that they are going to get
>a great deal.
>Unfortunately, too many of these folks end up paying too much, like the poor
>fellow who overpaid (in my opinion, backed by my own price-research for the
>same model) ) for this institutional Kawai NS-20A.
>
>In any case, your argument that I shouldn't expect more significant savings at
>these events makes no sense. For all I know, the dealer sponsors deducted the
>initial "donation" of these pianos from their taxes and are reselling them to
>have their cake and eat it, too. I don't know enough about the industry to
>understand how these things work. And, frankly, I don't care. [SNIP]
===========================================================================
One of the best functions of the Usenet is the warning by a consumer to other
consumers in a particular field of deceptive, misleading, and fraudulent
practices by dealers/salespersons in that field.
You've served that function well by telling us the outright lies, and
misleading sales practices, you've personally experienced at certain piano
sales events.
It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of special
interest Usenet newsgroups. Often, they hope to make sales by making their
presence known there.
You can be sure that, in this venue, these folks will always tell a consumer
like you who warns us of deceit, fraud, and misleading sales practice, that the
complainant should regard the liar, the deceiver, the misleader, as just a
hardworking Joe who's just trying to make his/her way in a world where you, the
buyer, have the obvious responsibility to find your way successfully through
the deceit *and not to complain or to warn others about your experience*.
Whatever the volume of response to your original post on this subject, there
are more of us than of them. Thank you for telling us about your experience
with fraudulent and misleading piano salespersons. There will certainly be
readers here, who may not even reply, who've learned from your account.
Very best wishes,
-- Bill Smithers
==========================================================================
Dave Zappa
favorite subject (piano dealers) has already been worked to death. It's
funny, the company I left last year is having such a "sale". They do
every year around this time. I was somewhat impressed that the
advertising didn't scream 40% off, however I did see a direct mail piece
that did. I also know how pricing is set at this particular event, so I
won't argue that you'll never find a sale where such tactics abound.
I will, however compliment Frank Westin on his usual (pardon the pun)
"frankness" regarding common sense and how it can be applied in such a
situation. Face it, we want to sell pianos. Some of us will resort to
what some could call questionable sales practices, and some of us
don't. Some out and out bold-face lie to the consumer.
So, my advice is this: when you find that dealer that shoots straight
with you, expect to find a high level of commitment to service and
integrity. Then don't be afraid to pay a little extra for it should you
find that to be an important trait in a retailer.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Trey Behan
>It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of special
>interest Usenet newsgroups. Often, they hope to make sales by making their
>presence known there.
>
Aside from outright advertising....how? I don't believe any dealer/salesperson
has a way of knowing even where a contributor lives, unless the poster is
contacted by e-mail with a solicitation.
Has anyone in this ng been contacted by a dealer/salesperson and asked to buy?
I honestly don't believe many people are here for business purposes. They're
here to learn and to contribute their knowledge and opinions. So this alleged
practice, in MY opinion, is not "common" at all--at least not in this
newsgroup.
Trey Behan
RJsmit1
I believe that most are not here to market their products and services, but I
have seen enough solicitations on other newsgroups to know that some do. I
personally don't care if they are here to do business. In fact, I find it
helpful to have seen a person's postings over a period of time to get a feel
for whether I might like to do business with them. The geography is an
impediment. Would like to hire a tech from this esteemed group if they lived in
my neighborhood.
Randall Smith
William Smithers
says...
>
>Bill Smithers wrote:
>
>>It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of special
>>interest Usenet newsgroups. Often, they hope to make sales by making their
>>presence known there.
>>
>
>Aside from outright advertising....how? I don't believe any dealer/salesperson
>has a way of knowing even where a contributor lives, unless the poster is
>contacted by e-mail with a solicitation.
===========================================================================
Of course a dealer/salesperson on a newsgroup who hopes to sell something
does not have to know the addresses of individuals tuning in to that group!!
He/she obviously knows that a certain number of people there are within hailing
distance of the selling place.
===========================================================================
>
>Has anyone in this ng been contacted by a dealer/salesperson and asked to buy?
============================================================================
If you don't know the answer to that question, why are you taking a stand on
the matter?
==========================================================================
>
>I honestly don't believe many people are here for business purposes. They're
>here to learn and to contribute their knowledge and opinions. So this alleged
>practice, in MY opinion, is not "common" at all--at least not in this
>newsgroup.
==========================================================================
Now you've attempted to misrepresent my use of the word "common." I wrote:
"It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of
special interest Usenet newsgroups."
You don't deny this, do you?
You "honestly don't believe that many are here for business purposes." I
don't know, and didn't give an opinon as to how many there are. But they are
here, and go about it various ways, from discreet to obvious.
You are also the person who cautioned a complainer not to regard the
salesperson as dishonest who told him that the Yamaha piano -- a competing
product for that seller -- was not suitable for classical music. It could very
well be, you told us all, his "honestly" held belief. Yeah, right.
I hope your bias in these matters is as clear to other consumers here as it
is to me.
-- Bill Smithers
===========================================================================
RHagenston
They don't just hold these "one-time" sales at armories and warehouses anymore.
The November 22 edition of The Baltimore Sun does have an advertisement for an
armory sale in Annapolis. However, somebody has done them one better. Their
ad proclaims that the sale is at "The Joseph Meyerhoff Symphony Hall IN
CONJUNCTION WITH The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra." It goes on to say that
"For a brief moment in time [that in italics], a unique collection of new,
rebuilt and reconditioned Steinway and Boston pianos will be available at the
Joseph Meyerhoff Symphony Hall in Baltimore. These legendary pianos will be
sold on a first-come, first-served basis, today only, at a price never to be
repeated."
Damn, I missed it! However, I bet that for the right bucks The Joseph
Meyerhoff Symphony Hall IN CONJUNCTION WITH The Baltimore Symphony will give me
their imprimatur for my Roland. Hey, I bet I can even get their blessings for
my old Casio keyboard in the closet. I'd really like to sell that Casio on a
first-come, first-served basis, today, at a price that no one would dare to
repeat.
Richard
Dale B. Robertson
with other agendas. I will watch,always, but contribute, rarely.
DBR
Trey Behan wrote:
> Bill Smithers wrote:
>
> >It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of special
> >interest Usenet newsgroups. Often, they hope to make sales by making their
> >presence known there.
> >
>
> Aside from outright advertising....how? I don't believe any dealer/salesperson
> has a way of knowing even where a contributor lives, unless the poster is
> contacted by e-mail with a solicitation.
>
> Has anyone in this ng been contacted by a dealer/salesperson and asked to buy?
>
> I honestly don't believe many people are here for business purposes. They're
> here to learn and to contribute their knowledge and opinions. So this alleged
> practice, in MY opinion, is not "common" at all--at least not in this
> newsgroup.
>
> Trey Behan
Frank Weston
William Smithers <bil...@silcom.com> wrote
>
> One of the best functions of the Usenet is the warning by a consumer to
other
> consumers in a particular field of deceptive, misleading, and fraudulent
> practices by dealers/salespersons in that field.
>
The problem with this theory is that all kinds of crackpots inhabit Usenet,
and it does require a little sense for a reader to separate fact from
drivel. The naive can be victims of hysterical and groundless warnings
just as well as benefit from legitimate discussion. Face the facts - there
is a certain segment of the population who because of laziness or stupidity
will always be victims, and will always complain.
> You've served that function well by telling us the outright lies, and
> misleading sales practices, you've personally experienced at certain
piano
> sales events.
>
Yes, the sky is falling, and when the Y2K bug hits, we will all die.
> It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of special
> interest Usenet newsgroups. Often, they hope to make sales by making
their
> presence known there.
>
This statement demonstrates your own lack of experience. The fact is that
selling pianos by Internet is almost a total waste of time and resources.
I read this group and write what I write because the discussions provide a
little knowledge and a lot of entertainment. I can't speak for others in
the industry, but I suspect their motives are the same.
> You can be sure that, in this venue, these folks will always tell a
consumer
> like you who warns us of deceit, fraud, and misleading sales practice,
that the
> complainant should regard the liar, the deceiver, the misleader, as just
a
> hardworking Joe who's just trying to make his/her way in a world where
you, the
> buyer, have the obvious responsibility to find your way successfully
through
> the deceit *and not to complain or to warn others about your experience*.
You need to read your mail more carefully. No one said a liar and cheat is
just a hard working Joe. The point that was made is that the world is hard
and salesmen can be tough, and unless you just fell off the turnip truck,
you, as an adult, should be well aware of these facts.
> Whatever the volume of response to your original post on this subject,
there
> are more of us than of them. Thank you for telling us about your
experience
> with fraudulent and misleading piano salespersons. There will certainly
be
> readers here, who may not even reply, who've learned from your account.
Yea, this is one bit of logic I love. There's more of us than them, so we
must be right.
Frank Weston
Trey Behan
>>Has anyone in this ng been contacted by a dealer/salesperson and asked to
>buy?
> If you don't know the answer to that question, why are you taking a stand on
>the matter?
I asked anyone in the group who had been directly solicited to buy a piano to
respond. So far no one has. If this continues, it will prove my point that it's
probably rather rare in this ng for dealers/salespeople to try to find
prospects "within hailing distance." Please note that I wasn't "taking a
stand;" I was making an observation and asking a question to verify it. Seems
more reasonable than making a closed-minded assumption, doesn't it?
> "It's common for dealers/salespersons to inhabit the environs of
> special interest Usenet newsgroups."
> You don't deny this, do you?
The last five words of my post were "--at least in this newsgroup."
>I hope your bias in these matters is as clear to other consumers here as it
>is to me.
I hope my actual bias is at least clear to you: That the piano buying
experience is tainted or ruined at least as much by uninformed prejudice
against dealers and salespeople as by anything else.
Bias #2: I have a high regard for people who approach life with an open mind,
and who are capable of situational THINKING (the gathering and analysis of new
information). "A stopped clock is only correct twice a day." And only ONCE, if
it's a modern clock that's supposed to know AM from PM. :)
My comments here are meant to be general statements of belief, and are not
directed personally to anyone.
Regards,
Trey Behan
Trey Behan
>Often, they hope to make sales by making
>their
>> presence known there.
>This statement demonstrates your own lack of experience. The fact is that
>selling pianos by Internet is almost a total waste of time and resources.
>I read this group and write what I write because the discussions provide a
>little knowledge and a lot of entertainment. I can't speak for others in the
industry, but I suspect their motives are the same.
Totally agreed. Thank you, Frank.
Trey Behan
pTooner
Trey Behan wrote:
> Bill Smithers quoted and wrote:
>
> >>Has anyone in this ng been contacted by a dealer/salesperson and asked to
> >buy?
>
> > If you don't know the answer to that question, why are you taking a stand on
> >the matter?
>
> I asked anyone in the group who had been directly solicited to buy a piano to
> respond. So far no one has. If this continues, it will prove my point that it's
> probably rather rare in this ng for dealers/salespeople to try to find
> prospects "within hailing distance."
Hmm, I have been contacted on a few occasions by potential customers from this
newsgroup. Does that count?
Gerry
Keith McGavern
>
> ...I asked anyone in the group who had been directly solicited to buy a piano to
> respond. So far no one has. If this continues, it will prove my point that it's
> probably rather rare in this ng for dealers/salespeople to try to find
How does a non-response to this type of question prove any point of whether
someone has bought or sold a piano through this newsgroup?
--
Keith McGavern
kam...@earthlink.net
Registered Piano Technician
Oklahoma Chapter 731
Piano Technicians Guild
USA
Keith McGavern
>
> ...The fact is that
> selling pianos by Internet is almost a total waste of time and resources...
I haven't found this to be true. In my experience the Internet has proven to
be a viable market place, both in buying and selling.
Keith McGavern
> ...Fair enough, and I'm all ears. Now to focus on the original point, did you use
> rec.music.makers.piano, or another site?
Yes, and yes. There have been numerous posts notifying the sale of pianos and
numerous requests concerning the purchase of pianos on rec.music.makers.piano
over the years. Perhaps, for some reason, these are matters that haven't
interested you until now.
Keith McGavern
>
> ...
> On the other hand, if there ARE people who have been verifiably hustled because
> of their participation here, I will have learned something about our newsgroup.
You initially mentioned being "directly solicited" to buy a piano, and now you
are using the word "hustled". Those two words imply different things to me.
Do they not to you?
Also, I am having trouble with the use of your words "our newsgroup". To the
best of my knowledge there is no direct or implied ownership of a newsgroup.
Am I amiss? Maybe this isn't what you meant anyway.
Trey Behan
>Hmm, I have been contacted on a few occasions by potential customers from
>this
>newsgroup. Does that count?
Why would it, if they wanted to buy rather than sell? Guess they just like you,
Ger!
Trey
Trey Behan
>How does a non-response to this type of question prove any point of whether
>someone has bought or sold a piano through this newsgroup?
I doesn't, conclusively. But it may allay the paranoia Bill expresses about
this place being infested with lurking capitalists. <g>
On the other hand, if there ARE people who have been verifiably hustled because
of their participation here, I will have learned something about our newsgroup.
Trey Behan
Trey Behan
>Frank Weston wrote:
>>
>> ...The fact is that
>> selling pianos by Internet is almost a total waste of time and resources...
>
>I haven't found this to be true. In my experience the Internet has proven to
>be a viable market place, both in buying and selling.
Fair enough, and I'm all ears. Now to focus on the original point, did you use
rec.music.makers.piano, or another site?
Trey Behan
NSDuncan
>The fact is that
>selling pianos by Internet is almost a total waste of time and resources.
Really, Frank? Just for the record I sold a Baldwin R earlier this year to
someone who found me via the internet. In May I bought a Steinway O that was
posted for sale in this newsgroup which I subsequently rebuilt and sold.
Currently in my shop there is a Mason & Hamlin BB which is being rebuilt that
my partner and I bought from an ad on the net. It may not be useful to you,
but it's been quite useful to me.
Niles Duncan
b...@thepianosource.com
lots of dealers and salespeople, like myself, who "regularly inhabit"
the newsgroup. If Mr. Smithers had been following this group for the
past 2 or 3 years like many who are on it, he would have seen several
instances of piano salespeople getting on the group and anonymously
challenging anything good said about their competition, etc. He also
would have seen other people get on the group and baldly state that
they were selling and would give special bargains to people
responding. However he would have also seen that those of us who do
keep an eye on things would then post statements telling the
offenders that this was not a selling forum but one of discussion,
questions, answers, etc. Whenever we have sensed that a poster was
really pushing a brand because he/she was selling that brand we (and I
mean not only myself but several others) would put a challenge up to
the poster to identify him/herself and come clean with afflilations,
ulterior motives etc. In most cases the offenders would simply vanish
instead of coming clean.
Compared to some newsgroups dealing with products for sale, this group
has been relatively clean and above board. Sure we have opinions and
they may disagree with yours but that doesn't make us liars or
fabricators. If there was one correct sound, all pianos would sound
alike. If there was one correct touch, they would all feel the same,
and if there was one correct one for classical (Ithink that was the
example given) then we'd all only play one piano for classical.
Opinions are what make horse races as my dad used to say.
By the way, who would be better to answer questions about pianos that
people who deal with them everyday of their lives? Would you prefer
that all your questions here would be answered by surgeons?
RJsmit1
correct touch, they would all feel the same,>
Agreed,and this is demonstrated in the range of touch and tone available in the
exotic priced instruments. In spite of their high price, Steinways and
Bosendorfers are distrinctly different. For those of us with more down to earth
budgets, the question becomes one of what set of comprimises do we wish to
accept? Compare a Kawaii RX3 with a Petrof III. They are both of similar size
and list price, but they diverge in lots of details. Probably neither is a
piano that would interest a concert artist, but they represent a much more
attainable price point. Is one piano better than the other? I don't know. Does
one sound better than the other? Probably depends more on the individual piano
and its preparation and care. Clearly a different economic path lead to the
very different set of comprimises that each of these instruments represent. I
don't use the word comprimise in a disparaging way. Presumably, every
manufacturer makes choices that could be called comprimises. What a lot of us
poor novices suffer from is sorting the comprimises out. (luan vs. maple rim, a
bright consistent Yamaha tone, vs. a 'European', but less consistently
constructed Petrof...) I digress and I apologize. It's been one of those days.
Randall Smith
Trey Behan
>You initially mentioned being "directly solicited" to buy a piano, and now
>you
>are using the word "hustled". Those two words imply different things to me.
>Do they not to you?
>
>Also, I am having trouble with the use of your words "our newsgroup". To the
>best of my knowledge there is no direct or implied ownership of a newsgroup.
>Am I amiss? Maybe this isn't what you meant anyway.
By using the terms "directly solicited" and "hustled" I was (getting back to
the orginal point of all this) addressing Bill Smithers' concern that some
retailers use this newsgroup to find, target, and sell prospects.
By using the term "our newsgroup," I obviously meant "the newsgroup which you
and I read." If I had said "our industry," would anyone construe that to mean
ownership of it?
Did my dog leave a calling card on your lawn or something, Keith? <g>
Trey
Frank Weston
relative waste of time and resources. The same energy applied toward
local advertising and sales reaps about a ten-fold return.
I have indeed made contacts via the internet, but the ratio of curiosity
seekers to serious customers is far greater on the net than it is among
local customers who must make a drive to ask questions. The impact of a
single local newspaper add is far greater than a full color photo post
which dwells on the net for months.
Once upon a time I was involved with a small business that printed up
thousands of color catalogs and mailed them to customers. This small
business also provided the same catalog via web-page. The response to the
mailed catalog was 100 times the response to the net catalog. Pianos are
even harder to buy and sell via net, because only a fool would buy a piano
he has not seen and played, and it is very difficult to get a customer to
fly 2000 miles on the possibility he might find a good piano at a fair
price. Add in the cost, risk, and complication of a cross country move,
and the difficulty is further increased.
Worse still for rebuilders, piano owners who advertise via net are usually
fishing for top dollar, not generally in a hurry, and rarely sell at prices
that make a profitable rebuild feasible. I would be curious to know just
what kind of profit you made on the Steinway O, particularly if you paid
the asking price plus moving and did a quality rebuild.
It is my sincere hope that the feasibility of doing business via the net
will improve, and I do see things going that way, but at this point in
time, and particularly for quality pianos, the picture is bleak.
Or could it be that I'm not nice enough? Nah!
Frank Weston
NSDuncan <nsdu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981123220548...@ng21.aol.com>...
Trey Behan
>There have been numerous posts notifying the sale of pianos and
>numerous requests concerning the purchase of pianos on rec.music.makers.piano
>over the years. Perhaps, for some reason, these are matters that haven't
>interested you until now.
Most of these have been private buyers and sellers. The DEALERS that have
advertised here have interested me greatly, as evidenced by my posts on the
subject (which evidently haven't interested you until now).
Let me put a cap on this, and perhaps quell what seems to be a certain
animosity coming from you. We all have our pet peeves, and one of mine is the
spamming of newsgroups by businesses. I value rec.music.makers.piano because
it's here for the mutual benefit of its contributors. FREE ADVERTISING here
benefits only the retailer, and makes the piano industry look sleazy. This is
just my personal view, and I need not debate it.
Parenthetically, I also dislike having to rip out cardboard inserts from
magazines so I can open them where I wish to, and having to spend time sifting
all the circulars out of the Sunday paper to get to the features.
In short, if a sales promotion begins by inconveniencing me (dinnertime
telemarketing, for example), it instantly loses my respect. For some reason,
though, I find no fault with an INDIVIDUAL who wants to sell his piano by
posting the ng, including a professional technician.
It all comes down to ethics, and I dislike sneaky marketing as much as anyone.
I hope this post leads us away from our unidentified disagreement, and serves
as a transition back to University Sales, fake Store Closings, etc.
Regards and respect,
Trey Behan
Gerald Geddings
RJsmit1 wrote:
> >If there was one correct sound, all pianos would sound alike. If there was one
> correct touch, they would all feel the same,>
>
> Agreed,and this is demonstrated in the range of touch and tone available in the
> exotic priced instruments. In spite of their high price, Steinways and
> Bosendorfers are distrinctly different. For those of us with more down to earth
> budgets, the question becomes one of what set of comprimises do we wish to
> accept?
That brings up a thought that bothers me on occasion. If you go into almost any
big ticket retail establishment including piano stores, it seems that the first
thing a salesman asks is "How much do you want to spend?" Now I understand that
the salesman's goal is to focus in on exactly which product he can sell you as
quickly as possible, but I find that approach offensive myself and I wonder what
others think? In many instances, I have no idea how much I want to spend. I don't
think most other people do either. We want the most for our money, but we don't
want to be pigeon holed into a particular price bracket. What do you think?
Gerry
Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check?
> >>
Keith McGavern
>
> ...It all comes down to ethics, and I dislike sneaky marketing as much as anyone.
> I hope this post leads us away from our unidentified disagreement, and serves
> as a transition back to University Sales, fake Store Closings, etc.
No problem. Clearly, we were on two different pages.
Dr. Jonathan Adams
>
>
> On the other hand, if there ARE people who have been verifiably hustled because
> of their participation here, I will have learned something about our newsgroup.
>
> Trey Behan
As a long time lurker on this NG I can honestly say that I have never
had the impression that anyone has tried to push anything on me.(With
the exception of the occasional spammer.) I am someone who is interested
in the industry, and I appreciate the input from dealers as to the pros
and cons of makes and models.
stacy adams
Keith McGavern
>
> Trey Behan wrote:
> >
> > ...Let me put a cap on this, and perhaps quell what seems to be a certain
> > animosity coming from you.
I assure you, Trey, there was none intended nor meant to be perceived.
Actually, I am thankful for our interchange, in particular your last post on
this thread.
It has led me to realize a few things about my perceptions of a newsgroup, the
subjects that arise in that newsgroup and my interest or lack of interest
therein, the contributors of those subjects and the threads that follow, and
even the world at large in which I roam.
Quite mind-boggling! So, thanks once again.
Raisindot
>>
>> One of the best functions of the Usenet is the warning by a consumer to
>other
>> consumers in a particular field of deceptive, misleading, and fraudulent
>> practices by dealers/salespersons in that field.
>>
>The naive can be victims of hysterical and groundless warnings
>just as well as benefit from legitimate discussion. Face the facts - there
>is a certain segment of the population who because of laziness or stupidity
>will always be victims, and will always complain.
I hope you're not including me in that group, Frank. I gave two very detailed,
concrete examples of situations where I, the consumer, was not getting what I
considered a fair price OR accurate information from supposedly reputable
piano dealers sponsoring these "special" events. I gave examples of where I
could get better prices, and examples of where a salesperson from one of
Boston's most well respected dealerships basically lied about the nature of the
pianos they were selling.
I never said that piano vendors had no right to make a profit. Nor did I say
that the dealer/event manager is totally to blame if the consumer gets himself
ripped off. On the contrary, I advocated that it IS the responsibility of the
consumer who wants to get a good deal on ANY big-ticket purchase to:
- know what they're getting into
- do their homework, and
- reserve the right to say "no," or "I'll get back to you" no matter how much
time a salesperson has spent.
However, contrary to the opinions expressed in previous messages, it ISN'T the
responsibility of the consumer to make sure sales person can make his car
payments. Nor is it the responsibility of the consumer to walk into a publicly
advertised "sale" and be ready to buy on the spot. Nor is it the responsibility
of the consumer to make sure he/she isn't wasting the salesperson's time.
That's the price a business has to pay in a capitalist society, whether the
product is pianos, computers, or wingnuts.
>The problem with this theory [consumer warnings] is that all kinds of
crackpots inhabit Usenet, and it does require a little sense for a reader to
separate fact from
>drivel.
And what's wrong with someone using their personal experiences as a consumer to
help others find a way through a confusion? How can a confused consumer become
"educated" unless they get insights from others? And as far as "separating fact
from drivel," what's wrong with simply allowing people in this or other
newsgroups to judge the veracity of these messages on their own merits?
>>William Smithers said:
>> You've served that function well by telling us the outright lies, and
>> misleading sales practices, you've personally experienced at certain
>piano
>> sales events.
>>
>
Frank replied:
>Yes, the sky is falling, and when the Y2K >bug hits, we will all die.
I see. So, what so you're saying is that opinions are perfectly valid, but
anything anyone says that contradicts your views are alarmist and
unsubstantiated? Have you always been so open-minded?
Jeff (rais...@aol.com)
kam...@earthlink.net
l...@epix.net
Gerald Geddings <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
> Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check?
Some guy by the name of Bechstein.
George
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
William Smithers
says...
==========================================================================
In my case, I wrote that it is common for dealers/salespersons to participate
in newsgroups.
You changed this to quote me as writing that it is common for them to sell.
I wrote that often they hope to sell something.
You changed this to "directly solicited", "hustled, "find, target and sell."
You also changed the tone and nature of my statements by characterizing them
as "paranoia" that this newsgroup is "infested with capitalists."
You say you used the word "hustled" to get back to the original point of all
this, which you characterize as my concern that "some retailers use this
newsgroup to find, target, and sell prospects."
No, the original point of this thread, and of my contribution to it, is the
use of lies, fraud, and misleading statements by some dealers/salespersons in
piano retailing. The original poster told us of the deceits he'd experienced in
a particular kind of "one-time only" piano sale.
I wrote thanking the poster for telling us his experience, and saying that
one of the best functions of Usenet newsgroups is to alert consumers in the
relevant field to shady practices they've encountered there. The spread of
knowledge about these tactics is our best defense against them.
I told the original poster that it's common for dealers/salespersons to
inhabit newsgroups, and that some of them would surely attempt to try to put a
positive spin on the source of his complaint, and I add now that some of them
will surely sneer at, and denigrate, him for making the complaint.
I added that there are more of us (consumers) than there are of them
(sellers) so that the original poster, and others here, would not feel that the
nature of some of the replies he was getting represented all of us. There are a
lot of us consumers, not all of whom post message often, who're interested in
how retailers behave.
Incidentally, in asking Keith whether your dog had left a calling card on his
lawn, followed by your hallmark "<g>", did you mean to imply that his
questioning your having shifted the nature of his language could only be
brought about by your having personally affronted him?
-- Bill Smithers
===========================================================================
VOCE88
>big ticket retail establishment including piano stores, it seems that the
>first
>thing a salesman asks is "How much do you want to spend?" Now I understand
>that
>the salesman's goal is to focus in on exactly which product he can sell you
>as
>quickly as possible, but I find that approach offensive myself and I wonder
>what
>others think? In many instances, I have no idea how much I want to spend. I
>don't
>think most other people do either. We want the most for our money, but we
>don't
>want to be pigeon holed into a particular price bracket. What do you think?
>
>Gerry
>
Although I can understand that question being asked by a "rookie"
salesman, I would hope that the majority of pianomen out there spend a good
amount of time explaining the differences that make the pianos diverge in
price.
After all, a customer will only spend more when they perceive there to be
more value - and that takes education.
Just my 2 cents.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
1 800 394 1117
Frank Weston
Raisindot <rais...@aol.com> wrote
> I see. So, what so you're saying is that opinions are perfectly valid,
but
> anything anyone says that contradicts your views are alarmist and
> unsubstantiated? Have you always been so open-minded?
Hey Jeff,
While it is perfectly acceptable for you to express your opinion, it is
also perfectly acceptable for me to tell you that your opinion sucks.
What I have been saying is that grownups don't need someone to tell them a
basic fact of life that should have been pounded into their heads since
childhood. Maybe you weren't paying attention, but most of us know not to
let a stranger hold our wallets, and we don't need to be reminded (again
and again).
Frank Weston
Alonzo Nesseler
get the piano they want, etc. But how should pianos be matched to pianists? I've often
said, for example, that students should play on the best instruments, and point to
Chopin (as teacher) as an example. His students always played the grand while he played
the upright. On the other hand, not every beginning student probably ought to buy a
Steinway.
Obviously, accomplished pianists are able to decide for themselves what is acceptable
simply by playing, at least with respect to sound, feel, and appearance. But what about
everybody else? Is it as simple as, buy the most expensive you can afford? Should
people interested in jazz pick a different piano than a Chopin lover? I've never, for
example, liked the sound of early keyboard music on a modern concert grand. So if I
were a Couperin nut, I might want a piano with less bass emphasis.
Let's say the salesman was actually a good judge of such matters. Would he ask the
prospective buyer to play one of the finer instruments, make an evaluation, and say,
here, this type of piano would be perfect for you?
What do you want to do with it isn't a bad question, either. I mean, in the sense of,
will you play it an average of an hour a day, two hours a day, or an hour a week? What
size room will it be played in?
In the beginning, my ear was lousy. But after forty years of butchering piano music, I
can no longer tolerate strings that have fallen out of tune. Practically every week I
have to pull out the hammer and straighten out a few of the strings that have slipped.
Can't stand it. Can pianos be rated on how well they will stand in tune? Can
prospective buyers be rated on how sensitive they would be to tuning? Personally, I
can't imagine how anyone could be delighted with the sound of what they were playing on
a piano that needed tuning. Or voicing. Or regulation.
So I guess where this rambling is going, is toward a more complete ranking of pianos
than we have had recently on this NG. We seem to talk a lot about one piano being
better than another, or one brand being better than another. But could a multi-point
rating system be developed so that pianos could be rated in the style of Consumer
Reports? And if you had such a system, could you match pianos to the skills and
interests of individuals, or is it just a matter of as much money as one is willing to
pay? If a piano were a car, it would seem obvious that we could do this (cost of
repairs, frequency of repairs, cost per mile, interior noise, visibility, safety in
crashes, ability to hold its value over time, features, etc.).
In other words, if the job of the salesman is to match pianos to clients, what could he
do to do it well?
Lon
Michael Johns wrote:
>
> The problem is that clearly, the salesman needs to know whether there is any
> point in showing off the Steinway if all you will do is look at the tag
> and cry.
>
> When I sold computers in the late 80's I had the perfect question. "What do
> you want to do with it?" That would establish a minimum system and a minimum
> price. Then I could explain where more money would help this along, where
> more money would give additional capability later etc.
>
> I don't see a clear analog in the piano world. Now a question or two like that
> may help the salesman steer you toward digital or accoustic but then what.
> "Where will you keep it?" may help determine upright/grand but "What
> do you want to do with it?" isn't all that enlightening if you are shopping
> for a grand piano. When you get down to it, you want one that sounds good to
> you and than you can afford.
>
> What would you like the salesman to do or say? Sit you down at the top end
> and extoll its virtues for 10 minutes? As much as the "how much do you want
> to spend?" bothers me, I am at a loss for a vision of a better way.
>
> >Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check?
>
> The reality check is in the email.
>
> Mike Johns
--
_______________
Alonzo Nesseler
To reply, take the anti-spam xxx off the address
Michael Johns
>That brings up a thought that bothers me on occasion. If you go into almost any
>big ticket retail establishment including piano stores, it seems that the first
>thing a salesman asks is "How much do you want to spend?" Now I understand that
>the salesman's goal is to focus in on exactly which product he can sell you as
>quickly as possible, but I find that approach offensive myself and I wonder what
>others think? In many instances, I have no idea how much I want to spend. I don't
>think most other people do either. We want the most for our money, but we don't
>want to be pigeon holed into a particular price bracket. What do you think?
>
I somewhat agree. The place where I bought my synth asked me that. My
response was somewhat agressive. How much will it take? I asked.
b...@thepianosource.com
>That brings up a thought that bothers me on occasion. If you go into almost any
>big ticket retail establishment including piano stores, it seems that the first
>thing a salesman asks is "How much do you want to spend?"
This is an interesting point. However I have to admit that this is an
area that I explore with a customer. While it would be easy to jump on
this and say that I am just trying not to waste my time - - it is
actually the time of the customer that is being wasted. If you are
going to spend about $8 to 10k for a piano, you are really going to
have a difficult time being happy with a piano in that range if you
are playing and auditioning the $40k or better instruments. Also I
don't want to insult someone or put someone in the uncomfortable
position of feeling that they have to spend more than they have
budgeted.
The only way I know how to find out what a person is thinking about
spending is by asking. Sure, you can say that you don't know or it
depends on the piano, but if you are going to limit yourself to $10k
you already know that, if that is your comfort range you know that. If
that is what you can afford as a total or on payments, you know that.
The real problem is when people tell me a lot less than they really
are willing to spend as this is part of the buyer's defense mechanism.
Like the "just looking" or "want used" or "want to spend $2500 for a
shiny black grand".
I usually look for an idea of budget in the early stages and then
again later on after we have looked at pianos, had differences
demonstrated, etc., and then approach the price again. There is no
sense dwelling on the $20,000 instrument if the budget is only going
to stand for $8500. Instead you should be looking for the best you can
get in your comfort zone. In the long run you will be happier with
something that was in your comfort zone than with something you really
had to stretch for that placed an additional burden on your life
turning what should be a happy, satisfying purchase into one that was
not so pleasant. I know that others disagree and think that you should
always buy the best. However that is neither realistic nor practical
for the overwhelming majority of people who actually buy pianos. The
"best" is the best you can afford. Some people will only buy what they
discern as the very best and these people, sadly, may actually never
buy as they are always saving or putting off until they can afford
that particular best. Thus depriving themselves and their families of
the enjoyment, education and experience of having a piano in the home.
Sorry I digress from the thread which is advertising and promotion of
events that can't really be completely true. There is a lot of that in
this industry and I can't condone it but it is a fact of life.It
affects all of us. I just lost a sale to a Symphony Sale as my
prospect bought there as it was advertised that the sale was to
support the Symphony as they got a piece of each sale. I hate to think
of a piece that small having any meaning. Let's see, they use 1
concert grand, 1 small grand and 2 practice pianos, however had over a
hundred on display that were "used by the Symphony." Look at
department stores that are always having sales for 3 days, or 1 day,
or 24 hours, with never to have again prices, etc., pity the poor
person who buys anything in a department store on the wrong day of the
week. As a society we are bombarded with all kinds of sales promotions
and not just in the piano business. Ours is a small industry and as an
industry just does what the rest of society does for good or bad.
While not offered as an excuse, dealers and manufacturers who want to
survive in a very competitive world, do what is necessary. caveat
emptor, let the buyer beware, rings from Roman days. Probably had a
colliseum sale of "used" chariots.
--
Bob Shapiro - - Formerly of Atlanta, now of S Florida. Retail salesperson currently
selling Kawai, Petrof, Samick, Technics, Kohler & Campbell and most recently in Atlanta
selling Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Yamaha, Roland, Hammond, in addition. With years ofexperience in
armory and college sales.
For the answers to many of your questions please see
http://www.thepianosource.com
t.jef...@m-cllp.com
alo...@ix.netcom.xxx.com wrote:
> [snip]
I've often
> said, for example, that students should play on the best instruments, and
point to
> Chopin (as teacher) as an example. His students always played the grand while
he played
> the upright.
Didn't Chopin die around 1848? Wasn't the upright a late 19th century
invention, around the 1870s? I have heard this Chopin anecdote before, and
had thought that uprights came long after his death. Am I wrong?
--
Trevor Jefferies
Houston, Texas
Gerald Geddings
Michael Johns wrote:
> I somewhat agree. The place where I bought my synth asked me that. My
> response was somewhat agressive. How much will it take? I asked.
>
> The problem is that clearly, the salesman needs to know whether there is any
> point in showing off the Steinway if all you will do is look at the tag
> and cry.
>
> When I sold computers in the late 80's I had the perfect question. "What do
> you want to do with it?" That would establish a minimum system and a minimum
> price. Then I could explain where more money would help this along, where
> more money would give additional capability later etc.
Well, Mike, I have never really been a piano salesman exactly - but I did own a piano
store and as such I sold some pianos. Unlike regular salesmen, I didn't have an
"approach". I found that I accomplished more by listening than I did by trying to
qualify my customers. I asked questions like "Can I help you find something?" or "Can I
explain anything for you?" The customer usually gave me enough information to help me
understand how to talk to them. Many times they would say something like "I know
nothing about pianos." Or they'd say, "I have an old upright and little Johnny is
progressing nicely and we need something better." In most cases I started with the
assumption that the customer came into my store to learn about pianos in a safe no
pressure place. I educated them as well as I could, and if I had what suited their
needs I showed it to them. If I didn't I would recommend other reputable stores that
did carry what they needed. Yes, I did that fairly often because I didn't carry any
high end new pianos. I don't argue that everyone should sell that way, it just worked
well for me.
Now I was in a moderate income area, and many of my customers really couldn't afford
more than $3500 so perhaps I could have asked, but I never did.
Gerry
>--Two boll weevils grew up in South Carolina. One went to Hollywood and
>became a famous actor. The other stayed behind in the cotton fields and
>never amounted to much. The second one, naturally, became known as the
>lesser of two weevils.
Tom Shaw
NG.
TS
Michael Johns
Hmmm speculating for a moment, it would be interesting if there were an expert system that
asked you some questions like "how big the room you will play in?" and "do you need
pipe organ, Rhodes, clavinet" and so forth and then have it play you a variety of recordings
in various styles for you to rate somehow.
and then have it kick back first choice, price of first choice,
2nd choice, price of 2nd choice etc. Of course this is non-trivial and the recorded
sounds won't tell you what it really sounds like sitting right there.
Perhaps what the world needs is a "piano tasting service" that has a jillion brands
in one place and then generates referals to local dealers who subscribe to the service
and sell the sort of piano you need. I rented an apartment through a refereal service
once and was fairly pleased.
Mike J.
Alonzo Nesseler
> alo...@ix.netcom.xxx.com wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> I've often
> > said, for example, that students should play on the best instruments, and
> point to
> > Chopin (as teacher) as an example. His students always played the grand while
> he played
> > the upright.
>
> Didn't Chopin die around 1848? Wasn't the upright a late 19th century
> invention, around the 1870s? I have heard this Chopin anecdote before, and
> had thought that uprights came long after his death. Am I wrong?
Jeff,
You're probably right about Chopin, but not about uprights! The upright grand was
around for decades before his death. We had a thread about that not long ago, but
I've forgotten what it was called....
Lon
>
>
> --
> Trevor Jefferies
> Houston, Texas
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
William Smithers
says...
>
>This has been an interesting thread. I would assume that there are
>lots of dealers and salespeople, like myself, who "regularly inhabit"
>the newsgroup. If Mr. Smithers had been following this group for the
>past 2 or 3 years like many who are on it,
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Mr. Smithers has been following this group for about 4 years.
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he would have seen several
>instances of piano salespeople getting on the group and anonymously
>challenging anything good said about their competition, etc. He also
>would have seen other people get on the group and baldly state that
>they were selling and would give special bargains to people
>responding.
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Mr. Smithers wrote in his first contribution to this thread that it is common
for dealers/salespersons to inhabit newsgroups. Mr. Smithers added that "often
they hope to sell something." You tell us the statements are true. Did you, by
direct reply, correct anyone who cast doubt on them?
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However he would have also seen that those of us who do
>keep an eye on things would then post statements telling the
>offenders that this was not a selling forum but one of discussion,
>questions, answers, etc.
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A generous spirit might agree that Mr. Smithers is also one "of us who do
keep an eye on things.."; a generous spirit might see his contribution to this
thread in just that light. Someone thoroughly familiar with the history of this
group might remember him taking to task a somewhat "loud" dealer who called
Larry Fine an "idiot."
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Whenever we have sensed that a poster was
>really pushing a brand because he/she was selling that brand we (and I
>mean not only myself but several others) would put a challenge up to
>the poster to identify him/herself and come clean with afflilations,
>ulterior motives etc. In most cases the offenders would simply vanish
>instead of coming clean.
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I think I can say that Mr. Smithers welcomes and respects the actions you
describe. In like fashion, I'm sure you welcome and respect -- *and would say
so openly* -- the contributions of anyone who encourages piano enthusiasts to
tell us of any lies, fraud, or misleading practices they encounter at the hands
of piano retailers, so that other consumers may more readily defend against
such behavior.
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>
>Compared to some newsgroups dealing with products for sale, this group
>has been relatively clean and above board. Sure we have opinions and
>they may disagree with yours but that doesn't make us liars or
>fabricators.
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To whom does the word "yours" above refer? I don't think Mr. Smithers has
ever called anyone who disagreed with him a liar. But I believe he's quite
interested in seeing contributors here report their experiences with sellers,
good or bad; and quite interested to see that those making a bad report are not
sucessfully bullied; and that documented, obviously sincere reports of fraud
are not sucessfully dismissed by those offering lame excuses for the
fraudulent. I'm sure you openly join in this effort.
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>By the way, who would be better to answer questions about pianos that
>people who deal with them everyday of their lives? Would you prefer
>that all your questions here would be answered by surgeons?
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I would prefer my questions about pianos to be answered by fair-minded,
honorable people, widely experienced, who have no financial or reputational
stake in the outcome.
-- Bill Smithers
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Achim Gratz
> You're probably right about Chopin, but not about uprights! The
> upright grand was around for decades before his death. We had a
> thread about that not long ago, but I've forgotten what it was
> called....
The thread was "How did they get upright?" and if you look for the
name "Barrie Heaton" you should get all you need to know on DejaNews.
Achim Gratz.
--+<[ It's the small pleasures that make life so miserable. ]>+--
WWW: http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~ag7/{english/}
E-Mail: gr...@ite.inf.tu-dresden.de
Phone: +49 351 463 - 8325
b...@thepianosource.com
>
> I would prefer my questions about pianos to be answered by fair-minded,
>honorable people, widely experienced, who have no financial or reputational
>stake in the outcome.
>
>
> -- Bill Smithers
>
> ============================================================================
>
cannot say that I agree with your last paragraph. In logic, you
eliminated everyone who might know about pianos. Whether financial or
reputational. You think the person who tells you that this is good, or
that is bad, etc., isn't putting their reputation on the line?
Everyone who voices an opinion has something at stake.
First who decides who is fair-minded. Are those people fair-minded
because they agree with you? Does that therefore make them honorable?
Secondly, how do you find widely experienced people that meet your
criteria? I suspect that any answers you would get from people who
have neither financial interest nor personal reputation involved might
in fact be meaningless.
Bob Shapiro
--
Bob Shapiro - - Formerly of Atlanta, now of S Florida.
Retail salesperson currently selling Kawai, Petrof,
Samick, Technics, Kohler & Campbell and recently in Atlanta
selling Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Yamaha, Roland Hammond
in addition to those brands and prior to that years selling
the Baldwin product line, Steinway and other new lines
and just about all used. With years of experience in
William Smithers
says...
>
>b
>>
>> I would prefer my questions about pianos to be answered by fair-minded,
>>honorable people, widely experienced, who have no financial or reputational
>>stake in the outcome.
>>
>>
>> -- Bill Smithers
>>
>>
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>>
>While I certainly agree with most of what you have had to say, I
>cannot say that I agree with your last paragraph.
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Although that paragraph does try to express my opinion, I agree that it is
too pat an answer to be satisfactory.
-- Bill Smithers
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Rasiel
t.jef...@m-cllp.com wrote in message <73gvh0$m5u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
.....
>
>Didn't Chopin die around 1848? Wasn't the upright a late 19th century
>invention, around the 1870s? I have heard this Chopin anecdote before, and
>had thought that uprights came long after his death. Am I wrong?
>
(though close enough). The first 'uprights' were made in the 1730's by
Silbermann; essentially, a grand with the action rotated 90 degrees -
complete with bent rim and all. They were often called 'giraffe' or harp
pianos.
I can't remember for sure which type of upright Chopin had, his favorite
grands however were Pleyel.
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel/rasiel.html
t.jef...@m-cllp.com
>
> t.jef...@m-cllp.com wrote:
> >
> > Didn't Chopin die around 1848? Wasn't the upright a late 19th century
> > invention, around the 1870s? I have heard this Chopin anecdote before, and
> > had thought that uprights came long after his death. Am I wrong?
> >
> > --
> > Trevor Jefferies
> > Houston, Texas
Thanks for all your responses. I had no idea that the upright had such a long
history.
td...@ibm.net
>To return to the musical purpose of this group, how about if we look for
>Boolean song titles? I propose "But Not For Me."
"It's You Or No One"
"Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Booleans?"