Ragtime Fingerings?
TopCounsel
simplified or abridged) which have included fingering suggestions or notations?
These are great pieces of music, but not one of the original publications
included any fingering notations at all.
Al Stevens
"TopCounsel" <topco...@aol.com> wrote in message
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I've never seen any. The fingerings ought to be obvious, though. Is there
some particular passage that's giving you trouble?
Al Stevens
http://www.alstevens.com
TopCounsel
not simplified or abridged) which have included fingering suggestions or
notations?
>I've never seen any. The fingerings ought to be obvious, though. Is there some
particular passage that's giving you trouble?
Haven't found them, either. I would have thought that since even the Schirmer
Library now contains a "Complete Joplin" volume, and now that whenever you're
looking for Joplin you usually have to check the "classical" sections (for both
recorded music and sheet music), some enterprising publisher would publish a
volume of annotated (but original) copies of this material to aid in the
teaching. Oh well.
I like to play broadly in these rags, and of course there are places where the
music requires more athleticism (e.g., bits of the Cascades, bits of the Fig
Leaf, and of course, bits of the Maple Leaf). Not having to stop to work out
my own fingerings would make the learning curve less steep, that's all.
M. Slater
is something that has to be practiced alone. When the wrist is postioned in the
middle of where the opening notes lie, all the notes are easily reached, the
wrist normally jumps up a fifth, making those notes easy to reach. Look at your
wrists!
Mark
Gareth
There is a folio called "At the Piano with Scott Joplin" published by
Alfred, and edited by Maurice Hinson. The editing consists of
suggested fingerings, as well as some pedalling and dynamics; other
than these additions, the rags - The Cascades, The Chrysanthemum, The
Easy Winners, The Entertainer, Heliotrope Bouquet, Maple Leaf Rag,
Rag-Time Dance, Solace, The Strenuous Life, Sun Flower Slow Drag and
Swipesy - are in their original form.
Gareth
TopCounsel
>Alfred, and edited by Maurice Hinson. The editing consists of
>suggested fingerings, as well as some pedalling and dynamics
Thanks, Gareth; I will look for it and check it out.
spa...@here.now
time to master.
Interesting trivia: Several of the Joplin Rags have words.
TopCounsel
>The fingering is not that difficult. It's the synchopation that takes some
time to master.
I suspect this may be an individualized thing; I get the swing of the
syncopation very easily once I've heard it played. The fingerings do make me
think and try one or two different options quite a bit, though.
>Interesting trivia: Several of the Joplin Rags have words.
The words were not always Joplin's, however. For example, those for "Pine
Apple Rag" were written later by a Tin Pan Alley hack and the tune was
re-issued as a "song." On the other hand, Joplin did write lyrics to "The
Ragtime Dance," which have been criticized for their unflattering portrayal of
negroes (this piece was originally issued as about a 20-minute "ragtime
ballet," and then for commercial reasons a shortened version was released).
Gary Rimar
Wasn't Scott Joplin black himself?
Tom Shaw
bitch about there having been absolutely no progress in the race era since
1000 BC.
TS
"Gary Rimar" <m...@garyrimar.com> wrote in message
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Al Stevens
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> The fingering is not that difficult. It's the synchopation that takes some
> time to master.
>
> Interesting trivia: Several of the Joplin Rags have words.
>
I have an old piece of sheet music somewhere with words to the Maple Leaf
Rag. As I recall, it starts with,
Jelly Roll McGee packed his travelin' bag,
Headed to the city with his Maple Leaf Rag...
I doubt that Joplin had anything to do with writing those lyrics.
Al Stevens
http://www.alstevens.com
Paul Hirose
>
> re-issued as a "song." On the other hand, Joplin did write lyrics to "The
> Ragtime Dance," which have been criticized for their unflattering portrayal of
> negroes (this piece was originally issued as about a 20-minute "ragtime
By today's standards, Joplin's lyrics for that piece are outrageous:
I attended a ball last Thursday night
Given by the dark town swells
Every coon came out in full dress alright
And the girls were society belles
The hall was illuminated by electric lights
It certainly was a sight to see
So many colored folks there without a razor fight
'Twas a great surprise to me
I've heard a modern recording of that piece, but it's been quite a few
years and I can't remember if they sang the politically incorrect
lyrics.
--
Paul Hirose <ewwb4...@earINVALIDthlink.net>
To reply by email delete INVALID from address.
TopCounsel
Yes, indeed. He was born in 1868 in Texarkana to parents who had both been
slaves.
TopCounsel
I was going to be less diplomatic and just simply say that the lyrics are often
called "coon lyrics" (even by black writers such as Haskins), in the same way
that many of the sheet music covers are called "coon covers," but so often as
soon as you do someone will call you a racist for using the term. Hence, my
watered-down comment.
The original covers to The Maple Leaf Rag, The Entertainer, "Original Rags,"
"Something Doing" (and at least one or two others) are all what have been
termed "coon covers," and gives the impression that Joplin either had no say in
their designs or simply did not find them offensive to his own sensibilities.
In any event, there is ample evidence that he considered ragtime to be a
"negro" art form.
spa...@here.now
On 6-Jun-2004, topco...@aol.com (TopCounsel) wrote:
> I suspect this may be an individualized thing;
I was only 10 yrs old when I learned my first rag. It was the Maple Leaf. I
assume you were older when you learned to play ragtime?
> The words were not always Joplin's, however
True. The rags I was refering to were...
"Maple Leaf Rag", Words by Sidney Brown
"The Entertainer", Words by John Brimhall
"When You Hair Is Like The Snow", Words by Owen Spendthrift
"Sarah Dear", Words by Henry Jackson
"Please Say You Will", Words and Music by Scott Joplin
"A Picture Of Her Face", Words and Music by Scott Joplin
"Little Black Baby", Words by Louise Armstrong Bristol
"I Am Thinking Of My Pickanniny Days", Words by Henry Jackson
spa...@here.now
On 6-Jun-2004, "Al Stevens" <no...@home.com> wrote:
> I have an old piece of sheet music somewhere with words to the Maple Leaf
> Rag. As I recall, it starts with,
>
> Jelly Roll McGee packed his travelin' bag,
> Headed to the city with his Maple Leaf Rag...
>
> I doubt that Joplin had anything to do with writing those lyrics.
That is correct. Actually the words to the "Maple Leaf Rag" were written by
Sidney Brown
spa...@here.now
On 6-Jun-2004, Paul Hirose <ewwb4...@earINVALIDthlink.net> wrote:
> I've heard a modern recording of that piece, but it's been quite a few
> years and I can't remember if they sang the politically incorrect
> lyrics.
>
> --
You can thank Martin Luther King for that. In the 1800's the negro did not
have much freedom to voice their opinion.
What we need to do is focus on the fact the Scott Joplin was a great
musician and composer in his time. He was a negro and he broke barriers in
musical style by inventing the Ragtime.
I only play ragtime by Mr. Joplin because I believe his are the best every
written.
Futhermore, being a negro in the 1800's was very difficult. Can you think of
any negro composers prior to the 1900's besides Mr. Joplin that became
famous? The list is probably very small.
He accomplished something that was very difficult in his time. As we move
into the 1900's we see a multitude of negro musicians. I can name negro Jazz
and Blues artists by the dozens that wrote music in the 1900's.
spa...@here.now
On 6-Jun-2004, "Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote:
> I think so but that doesn't insulate him from modern day black activists
> who
> bitch about there having been absolutely no progress in the race era since
> 1000 BC.
> TS
You can thank Martin Luther King for that one. In Scott Joplin's time the
negro did not have a lot of freedom the voice his/her opinion.
TopCounsel
>assume you were older when you learned to play ragtime?
I was in high school before anyone put a Joplin rag in front of me, though I
probably had played other stuff that would qualify as ragtime. So, yeah , I
was older.
>The rags I was refering to were...
>
>"Maple Leaf Rag", Words by Sidney Brown
>
>"The Entertainer", Words by John Brimhall
>
>"When You Hair Is Like The Snow", Words by Owen Spendthrift
>
>"Sarah Dear", Words by Henry Jackson
>
>"Please Say You Will", Words and Music by Scott Joplin
>
>"A Picture Of Her Face", Words and Music by Scott Joplin
>
>"Little Black Baby", Words by Louise Armstrong Bristol
>
>"I Am Thinking Of My Pickanniny Days", Words by Henry Jackson
Only the first two of these are really rags, I would say. The others are more
like gay 90's pop tunes. "Little Black Baby" is one that I really wonder about
the Joplin attribution; he may have just leant his name to it to help a friend.
The publisher was a vanity press, and the cover depicts a white baby!
spa...@here.now
On 7-Jun-2004, topco...@aol.com (TopCounsel) wrote:
> Only the first two of these are really rags, I would say. The others are
> more
> like gay 90's pop tunes. "Little Black Baby" is one that I really wonder
> about
> the Joplin attribution; he may have just leant his name to it to help a
> friend.
> The publisher was a vanity press, and the cover depicts a white baby!
Thanks for the tip. What you say may be the case.
My source is a book of rag times called "Scott
Joplin - Complete Ragtime Piano Solos" Copyright 1974 by
Shattinger-International Music Corp.
I am not sure how reliable this publisher is. If this had Urtext I would
have
more confidence.
TopCounsel
>Joplin - Complete Ragtime Piano Solos" Copyright 1974 by
>Shattinger-International Music Corp.
>I am not sure how reliable this publisher is. If this had Urtext I would
>have
>more confidence.
The most serious Joplin research post-dates the book you refer to. After
Marvin Hamlisch's Joplin-based score for The Sting, the explosion of interest
in Joplin and his music was of course tremendous. Edward A. Berlin's book
(King of Ragtime -- Scott Joplin and his Era) may be the most thorough, and
James Haskins' "Scott Joplin -- The Man Who Made Ragtime" is another that
post-dates the film.
Watcher
>
> Futhermore, being a negro in the 1800's was very difficult. Can you think of
> any negro composers prior to the 1900's besides Mr. Joplin that became
> famous? The list is probably very small.
>
Um ... not to open a can of worms, but ... some people believe that
Beethoven was black. There has been a fair amount written about it,
but I've never found any evidence that was convincing....
spa...@here.now
On 8-Jun-2004, topco...@aol.com (TopCounsel) wrote:
> The most serious Joplin research post-dates the book you refer to. After
> Marvin Hamlisch's Joplin-based score for The Sting, the explosion of
> interest
I remember when "The Sting" hit the silver screen. Marvin Hamlisch really
sparked a new intrest in rag. I learned the Maple Leaf in the 60's when I
was 10.
When "The Sting" was released I found myself playing much more rag. Go
figure.
> in Joplin and his music was of course tremendous. Edward A. Berlin's book
> (King of Ragtime -- Scott Joplin and his Era) may be the most thorough,
> and
> James Haskins' "Scott Joplin -- The Man Who Made Ragtime" is another that
> post-dates the film.
Thank you kindly for the two sources above. I will definitely search for the
Berlin book
as well as the Haskins film.
fredhep
rec.music.ragtime. Dr. Berlin often posts there.
--
fredhep at Earthlink.net
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spa...@here.now
Thanks for sharing.
spa...@here.now
I will go check out that group.
Stormin' Norman
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> I will take a look at the sources very soon.
>
> Thanks for sharing.
Joplin gives the fingerings in one of his compilations...
TopCounsel
Can you please be more specific? I have Joplin's short "School of Ragtime" in
2 or 3 books, but that focuses only on getting the swing of the syncopation.
Where did Joplin ever give fingerings?
Gareth
The only rag I can think of with fingerings on the original score is Magnetic Rag.
TopCounsel
Rag.
Thank you! Upon following up your information, these other observations came
to light:
"Magnetic Rag" is one of only 2 rags which Joplin self-published. As you say,
"Magnetic Rag" has detailed fingerings throughout.
The other self-published rag was "The Easy Winners" (included in the Hamlisch
"Sting" score), and sure enough, it includes 2 measures in the "B" part which
have detailed fingering marks.
As far as I can tell, all the material published by ordinary music publishers
do not include fingerings. Could lead one to believe that Joplin's evident
preference in this respect was disregarded by his several publishers.
Watcher
> topco...@aol.com (TopCounsel) wrote in message news:<20040621120038...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
> > >Joplin gives the fingerings in one of his compilations...
> >
>
> The only rag I can think of with fingerings on the original score is Magnetic Rag.
Hmmm ... purely of academic interest, but I wonder if the fingering
was done by Joplin or by his publisher???? I'll try to move this
thread to rec.music.ragtime to see if anyone knows.....
Watcher
Thanks. That answers my question of whether the publisher added the fingering......