Which yamaha piano do I should purchase U1 or GA1?
Allyson
I want to buy a Yamaha piano for my daughter who is 6 years old and
also for myself. I am going to attend adult lessons later. I want
this piano to serve a several combined purpose. First of all I want
to have better tone, better performance. Secondly it will placed in
our living room. So it is a piece of furniture. Third we are going
to keep it for at least 20 years. But in case we need to sell it. We
want this piano to have better investment. My husband and I don't
have any experience for playing piano. We went to the Yamaha dealer
store near us last night. This is only one store in our area. Before
we went, we wanted T121. After one hour talk with the saleman, we
changed our idea to GA1, because it is grand, looks better. Its sound
is better than T121 by my ear. We are offered $8900 for GA1. Do you
think this is good price? We live in Wisconsin. Today I read almost
every article about GA1, U1, U3, T121, P22 in this group. Most of
people think GA1 is very bad choice. So I am so confused now. We
suppose to pay for the piano next Monday. Can any one give me some
advice? Is this good price? Do we should go cheap baby grand or
upright?
Thank you in advance
Allyson
Larry
>I want to buy a Yamaha piano for my daughter who is 6 years old and
>also for myself.
If you wouldn't limit yourself to one brand this way, you might find a lot more
options open to you. Try saying "I want to buy a piano" then narrow down the
brand after you've seen them all.
>First of all I want
>to have better tone, better performance.
A great reason to open up your options.
> But in case we need to sell it. We
>want this piano to have better investment.
Don't fall for that one. A Yamaha doesn't hold its value any better or any
worse than any other decent brand of piano. Someone's fed you a sales pitch.
>We went to the Yamaha dealer
>store near us last night.
Now we know who fed you a sales pitch....
> This is only one store in our area.
Then go visit the other ones, and open your mind to the possibility that
something besides a Yamaha is worth looking at.
>Before
>we went, we wanted T121. After one hour talk with the saleman, we
>changed our idea to GA1, because it is grand, looks better.
Both are the bottom of the barrel in the Yamaha line. Chinese actions, thin
back posts in the vertical, thin beams in the grand. The vertical has a layer
of particleboard glued in between the backposts and the pinblock, but to see it
requires pulling up the felt glued across the top of the back under the lid.
Not a good idea to put flakeboard there.
>We are offered $8900 for GA1. Do you
>think this is good price?
For this same amount of money you can buy any number of premium grade vertical
pianos that are far superior instruments to what Yamaha builds.
>Is this good price? Do we should go cheap baby grand or
>upright?
The prices are pretty average. As to whether or not to go with a cheap baby
grand or an upright, you'll have to decide how much quality you're willing to
sacrifice for the furniture value of the baby grand. Personally, my
recommendation would be to spend your money on the instrument instead of the
furniture. And with 9K to spend, I'd try to find some better pianos, like
Schulze Pollmann, Petrof, Schimmel, W. Hoffmann, Charles Walter, things like
that. If I just wanted the look of a baby grand, the Korean baby grands offer
more musical value today than the low end Yamaha stuff. Check them out as well.
But open your mind, and stop limiting yourself by brand. Times change. So do
products.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
group on my website:
The Piano Guy
Yamaha CFIIIS. It's a beautiful piece of furniture, so it'll look
mighty fine in your living room. It isn't that expensive (compared to
a Steinway D). It has a fresh vibrant tone. And it's your best bet
for an investment. Quality wood is getting rarer every year. In
about 20 - 30 years, your investment will double.
aw...@hotmail.com (Allyson) wrote in message news:<f3f5ac35.0206...@posting.google.com>...
Larry
That explains why they aren't using any, huh?
>In about 20 - 30 years, your investment will double.
Actually, no.
Amir Oren
>
> Hi, everyone:
> I want to buy a Yamaha piano
You probably mean "I want to buy a piano".
> for my daughter who is 6 years old
Age of the player is not relevant.
> First of all I want to have better tone, better performance.
You should compare in order to decide which is "better".
> Secondly it will placed in
> our living room. So it is a piece of furniture.
This I can understand.
> My husband and I don't
> have any experience for playing piano.
Neither any experience for buying one. Take your time , buy Larry Fine's
"The Piano Book" (about 15$) and read it (very easy reading).
> After one hour talk with the saleman, we
> changed our idea to GA1, because it is grand, looks better.
First these "baby grands" are promotional models (see Larry Fine's
book).
Second : they are ugly compared to Young Changs (Weber) or Samick's
grands.
Third: they sound awfull.
> Its sound is better than T121 by my ear.
Sales person can bang on the pianos various chords with the sustain
pedal down and impress you. And beleive me, these grands sound bad.
> So I am so confused now. We
> suppose to pay for the piano next Monday.
Why the hurry ? Are you printing dollar bills at night ? Buying a piano
takes time. Time for you to get some information, to get educated about
pianos. Assuming the price is not a concern, think about the possibily
that when you'll learn playing you'll find that you have a piece of junk
that you cannot dispose of.
Amir Oren
KeybdWizrd
>I want to buy a Yamaha piano for my daughter who is 6 years old and
>also for myself. I am going to attend adult lessons later. I want
>this piano to serve a several combined purpose. First of all I want
>to have better tone, better performance. Secondly it will placed in
>our living room. So it is a piece of furniture. Third we are going
>to keep it for at least 20 years. But in case we need to sell it. We
>want this piano to have better investment.
If you want an upright, I'd recommend the Yamaha U1 or U3. I've been shopping
myself, and these are rock solid pianos. They sound great, are well built, and
seem to be very consistent in their manufacture. Piano afficionados in this
group will point you to other brands that are less well known (but likely
decent pianos as well), but IMHO given everything you've said you may want to
stick with a name brand that "everyone" has heard of. You should be able to
get a U1 for approximately $6500 or a U3 for approximately $8500 (in ebony -
other finishes will probably cost more).
I, myself, have decided to stay away from entry-level baby grands. Try the 5'
3" Yamaha C-1 (I've been quoted $15,400 here in Chicago). At the moment, I am
trying to decide between one of these (no room for a larger grand) and a
Steinway K52 upright (approximately $20,000). Two completely different
instruments, to be sure.
Michael Walthius
THE MUSIC OF CYBERSPACE
http://www.mp3.com/walthius
Larry
>get a U1 for approximately $6500 or a U3 for approximately $8500 (in ebony -
>other finishes will probably cost more).
You should try a few other brands as well. For what you're talking about
spending for a U3, you're not too far from the price of a W. Hoffmann by
Bechstein, and that piano will blow a U3 out of the water. Or a Schulze
Pollmann. Even the Petrof offers more.
KeybdWizrd
>>You should be able to
>>get a U1 for approximately $6500 or a U3 for approximately $8500 (in ebony -
>>other finishes will probably cost more).
>
>
>You should try a few other brands as well. For what you're talking about
>spending for a U3, you're not too far from the price of a W. Hoffmann by
>Bechstein, and that piano will blow a U3 out of the water. Or a Schulze
>Pollmann. Even the Petrof offers more.
Given that you're a dealer that sells these pianos I am sure you're
exceptionally comfortable with them. You have a great website, and perhaps you
have a really nice store with helpful, informative people that help consumers
be comfortable with purchasing these somewhat non-brand name instruments.
However, for the rest of us....
I've been to five piano stores here in Chicago and have yet to see a Bechstein
or a Schulze Pollmann (but I haven't been looking for them either). I found
one store that sold Charles Walter pianos -- a rather dilapidated place that
had a couple of dusty consoles. I also found one store that sells Petrofs....
I played the 50" upright but quit after discovering that one of the keys had
something wrong with it and didn't work. To be honest, the place looked like
it could fold up at any moment.
On the other hand, the two Yamaha dealers and one Steinway dealer I've been to
are, at the face of it, respectable/responsible retail establishments. Been in
business a long time, with large inventories of impeccable, clean, tuned,
perfect-functioning instruments. Beautiful stores with helpful salespeople
too.
These brand name stores, at least the ones I've seen, do a really good job of
making you feel comfortable about writing them a check for ten or fifteen
thousand dollars. I am sure that this contributes to their sales figures.
Chicago is a big place and it's certainly likely that there is a great
confidence-inspiring shop that sells the instruments you're recommending. I
just haven't found it yet.
Larry
>exceptionally comfortable with them.
I don't sell Petrof, but you're right, I do sell the other brands. I try to
recommend brands based on their quality, not because I sell them.
>You have a great website,
Thank you.
>perhaps you
>have a really nice store with helpful, informative people that help consumers
>be comfortable with purchasing these somewhat non-brand name instruments.
I wouldn't classify them as non-brand name. There's far more Chevys and Toyotas
on the road than BMWs, but that doesn't mean a BMW isn't a major brand. Same
applies to pianos. The higher the quality, the fewer of them you can build.
>I've been to five piano stores here in Chicago and have yet to see a
>Bechstein
>or a Schulze Pollmann (but I haven't been looking for them either).
Well, there you go.
> I found
>one store that sold Charles Walter pianos -- a rather dilapidated place that
>had a couple of dusty consoles.
I'm sorry. It doesn't sound like Walter is well represented in Chicago. That
doesn't diminish the Walter however, only the dealer.
>I also found one store that sells Petrofs....
>I played the 50" upright but quit after discovering that one of the keys had
>something wrong with it and didn't work.
That's hardly a reason to reject an entire brand of piano. You could have just
as easily sat down to a Yamaha with a funky key. It happens. Rejecting the
entire brand because you played one with a sticky key is like rejecting an
entire brand of cars because you tried one and the headrest was stuck.
>Chicago is a big place and it's certainly likely that there is a great
>confidence-inspiring shop that sells the instruments you're recommending. I
>just haven't found it yet.
>
So as I said before, why not go out with an open mind and find some of them? I
know there is a Bechstein dealer in Chicago. I did know their name........
Pickle Music? I don't think you'll find their store to be dusty or in poor
condition, or their pianos to be in bad shape. Try the W. Hoffman. Play one for
15 minutes, and you'll never look at a Yamaha or a Steinway again.
KeybdWizrd
>>perhaps you
>>have a really nice store with helpful, informative people that help consumers
>>be comfortable with purchasing these somewhat non-brand name instruments.
>
>I wouldn't classify them as non-brand name. There's far more Chevys and
>Toyotas on the road than BMWs, but that doesn't mean a BMW isn't a major
brand. Same
>applies to pianos. The higher the quality, the fewer of them you can build.
Let me characterize that a different way.... I believe that the general public
(including musicians and non-musicians) are generally familiar with the brand
names of Steinway, Baldwin, and Yamaha in connection with pianos. I'm not
saying there's anything wrong with other pianos, but most people, in general,
are not familiar with many other brands. I wasn't, until I started shopping.
>>I also found one store that sells Petrofs....
>>I played the 50" upright but quit after discovering that one of the keys had
>>something wrong with it and didn't work.
>
>That's hardly a reason to reject an entire brand of piano. You could have
>just as easily sat down to a Yamaha with a funky key. It happens. Rejecting
the
>entire brand because you played one with a sticky key is like rejecting an
>entire brand of cars because you tried one and the headrest was stuck.
Point well taken. However, it's not like there are a dozen Petrof dealers
scattered across Chicagoland with dozens of pianos to choose from. On the
other hand, I've played three U1's, two U3's, four C1's, and one C2 and they
were impeccable -- really. I know it's a just a perception thing, but
perception is hugely important to someone like me who is somewhat jittery just
thinking about spending somewhere between $8,000 and $20,000 for a new piano.
I need to have confidence in my decision if/when I decide to write the check.
And I need to be comfortable with the vendor I am buying the piano from in case
I have issues down the road.
>I know there is a Bechstein dealer in Chicago. I did know their name........
>Pickle Music?
Yes, I've seen that name in the Yellow Pages. I will have to pay them a visit.
Thanks for all of your information and advice.
Larry
>saying there's anything wrong with other pianos, but most people, in general,
>are not familiar with many other brands. I wasn't, until I started shopping.
I understand. But part of the shopping process is learning that there are other
brands available than the commonly known ones. That doesn't mean you won't end
up buying one of the common ones. It just means you owe it to yourself to try
them out objectively. Of course, if the dealers for these brands aren't
presenting the product or themselves well, I understand your hesitation.
>Point well taken. However, it's not like there are a dozen Petrof dealers
>scattered across Chicagoland with dozens of pianos to choose from.
Point well taken.. :-)
>I know it's a just a perception thing, but
>perception is hugely important to someone like me who is somewhat jittery
>just
>thinking about spending somewhere between $8,000 and $20,000 for a new piano.
>
I understand.
>I need to have confidence in my decision if/when I decide to write the check.
>
>And I need to be comfortable with the vendor I am buying the piano from in
>case
>I have issues down the road.
I understand this as well. I assure you the manufacturers of the brands I've
mentioned are impeccable. I can't address the issue of whether the dealers
you've been to are however.
>Yes, I've seen that name in the Yellow Pages. I will have to pay them a
>visit.
> Thanks for all of your information and advice.
You're welcome. I think you'll be pleased with Pickle Music. I know the owner,
and he's a great guy. Be sure to check out a W. Hoffmann. I'd rather play one
of these than a Yamaha C3.
Happy shopping!
The Piano Guy
> 15 minutes, and you'll never look at a Yamaha or a Steinway again.
>
>
>
>
> Larry Fletcher
> Pianos Inc
> Atlanta GA
> Dealer/technician
>
> Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
> Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
> group on my website:
>
> Http://www.pianosinc.net
Are there any uprights with a tone as good as a grand and action which
enables you to play superfast trills?
Larry
>enables you to play superfast trills?
Yes.
The Piano Guy
Which ones? Don't mention the ones that sound like a baby grand.
Pianocat88
enables you to play superfast trills?
see www.fandrich.com
Lisa Weller, RPT
Los Alamitos, CA
tim
trills"??? uprights have no chance due to action machenical design flaws.
(given good action condition, regulated, well maintained, decent makers etc
etc....blah blah blah). go ask any half decent pianists......
Tim
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020615091133...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Larry
>trills"??? uprights have no chance due to action machenical design flaws.
Not necessarily. There are several premium grade verticals with actions that
will perform as good as a grand. While it's true the geometry of a vertical
action is different from that of a grand, that doesn't mean that a vertical
action can't be designed to perform as good as one. Try a Bechstein model 8
sometime.
Allyson
your ratings by brand, sounds like the yamaha brand isn't what we
thought or had heard. my husband would rather buy an american made
product but we are very interested in the piano holding it's value.
This is because our careers could cause us to move and etc... We
don't really want to buy vertical, we would like to get a good quality
instrument, a grand for astictics and so far we feel the grands sound
better to us. Mainly our struggle is spending near 10K we wish to
receive 10K worth of instrument that will remain worth 10K and perform
well into the future with out maintenance issues. Found it
interesting the Fandrich & Sons advertises a 12yr warranty, what
should we expect as far as warranty ?
What I have learned so far, wood quality is or should be 1st then
hammer selection or type, quality in casting, sound would be in tone
and we are not musically inclinded so we do our best.
I now know of the following brands
W. Hoffmann, Schulze Pollmann, Petrof, Schimmel, Yamaha, Charles
Walter, Peral River, Young Changs (Weber) or Samick's, Bechstein,
Fandrich & Sons, Baldwin, Steinway, ? ? ?
Thanks for your help
Dave and Allyson
larryin...@aol.comnojunk (Larry) wrote in message news:<20020616014318...@mb-bj.aol.com>...
KeybdWizrd
>Larry you seem very knowledgeable
Yes, he seems to be. I am going to take his advice and try some of the less
well-known European pianos that he sells in his store.
>sounds like the yamaha brand isn't what we thought or had heard.
The is nothing *wrong* with Yamahas, but you may need to step up to the U
series verticals or C series grands, not the cheaper models I believe you
mentioned previously.
>my husband would rather buy an american made
>product but we are very interested in the piano holding it's value.
From what I've read in "The Piano Book" and from other sources, I believe that
nearly all pianos "hold their value" (or depreciate) generally to the same
extent, excepting that Steinways may perform a bit better over the long haul.
You may want to consider, however, whether or not a brand that is a household
name (like Yamaha or Baldwin) might be easier to sell privately down the road,
should that be something you have to do.
>We don't really want to buy vertical, we would like to get a good quality
>instrument, a grand for astictics and so far we feel the grands sound
>better to us. Mainly our struggle is spending near 10K we wish to
>receive 10K worth of instrument that will remain worth 10K and perform
>well into the future with out maintenance issues.
When spending $10k on a new grand you're basically looking at entry-level baby
grands. I believe, however, that they're likely to hold up fine under most
"normal" household conditions, unless you're an advanced player banging out
Beethoven sonatas day in and day out.
>I now know of the following brands
>W. Hoffmann, Schulze Pollmann, Petrof, Schimmel, Yamaha, Charles
>Walter, Peral River, Young Changs (Weber) or Samick's, Bechstein,
>Fandrich & Sons, Baldwin, Steinway, ? ? ?
It was suggested to me via this group that Larry Fine's "The Piano Book" would
be $13.97 well spent when shopping for a piano. Given that you're researching
this purchase to the extent you are, I'd suggest the book to you as well:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1929145012/102-5469629-2285738
Larry
>your ratings by brand, sounds like the yamaha brand isn't what we
>thought or had heard.
Well, thank you. There are lots of other people here who are very knowledgeable
too, so get a consensus. I was just trying to make sure you shopped with a
wider range of options instead of limiting yourself based on brand name
recognition.
As far as ratings by brand, that's a bit difficult, and not really the best way
to do it. It's far better to talk about *categories* of pianos. There will be
several brands within a category, and you should decide what category you want
to be in, and then look at everything within that category. Remember that a
salesman will always come up with reasons why his piano is in the "top
category" - better resale value because of its famous name, for instance. This
is a red herring, however. Don't pick a piano because of how well known the
piano is, or how much you think it might be worth later because of it. They
will all hold their value pretty much the same, the determining factors not
being the name but how good its condition is when you go to resell it. And it's
all relative to what it sold for to start with.
>my husband would rather buy an american made product but we are very
>interested in the piano holding it's value.
As I said, one piano will hold its value just as good as another, and a given
piano's value later on will be determined by its condition and will be relative
to its original price. If you want to buy American, you are pretty much limited
to offerings by Charles Walter, Steinway, and Mason Hamlin. All are very high
quality pianos, and can compete equally. The resale value of all of these
brands will hold up pretty much the same, the name having little to do with it.
>We don't really want to buy vertical, we would like to get a good quality
>instrument, a grand for astictics and so far we feel the grands sound
>better to us. Mainly our struggle is spending near 10K we wish to
>receive 10K worth of instrument that will remain worth 10K and perform
>well into the future with out maintenance issues.
You don't have a large enough budget to buy a grand *and* stay with an American
built piano. In fact, the only American made piano that will come in under the
10K mark is a Charles Walter vertical. These pianos can be just as pleasing
musically as many grands under 6', though they obviously don't satisfy the
desire for the look of a grand. I don't include the US made stuff by Yamaha and
Kawai, because they are pretty much low end stuff not competitive with the true
American pianos.
To get a decent grand and stay at or under 10K, you also have to rule out the
Japanese stuff. Now you're looking at either Korean or Chinese. I'd stick with
the Korean built pianos. Your budget is now sufficient to buy a decent quality
piano in this category.
This is a great place to show you why shopping purely by brand name limits you.
The better Korean stuff is superior to the lower end Japanese stuff. You can
count on a salesman showing a Japanese built piano playing up the "resale
value" and the "name" while showing you his bottom of the barrel baby grand,
all while using the common misconception that the Korean pianos are lower
quality to his advantage. The facts are, 10K will buy you a low end, entry
level Japanese baby grand, but it will also buy you a top of the line 5' 7" -6'
Korean piano that is a far superior piano. That's when the "resale value"
hammer gets picked up. But it should be ignored, because 10 years from now, a
well maintained 6' grand will come a lot closer to bringing you 10K than a well
maintained baby grand, and the name on the front won't help at all.
As for rating these by brand - there are lots of brand names stuck on pianos
coming from two factories. Just play them. The salesman will tell you how his
brand has a gold plated widget and no other brand offers this, but the reality
is the piano itself will tell you everything you need to know. Just ask the
salesman to go away and shut up so you can spend a little time with the piano.
Then buy the one that pleases you. Are there differences between all the
offerings from these two makers? Yes. Do they matter much? Maybe a little, but
not to the degree that you should choose the one with the best "specs" when the
one with lesser "specs" or a less impressive sounding "name" is the one that
speaks to you.
>Found it
>interesting the Fandrich & Sons advertises a 12yr warranty, what
>should we expect as far as warranty ?
Just that it has a warranty. It is common in the piano industry for the
warranty to be used as a "selling feature" - the lower the quality the longer
the warranty often applies. Piano warranties longer than about 5 years are
pretty much unimportant. If the piano hasn't failed by 5 years, it probably
won't. Typically warranties are between 10-15 years. The finest pianos made
typically only have a 5 year warranty.
>What I have learned so far, wood quality is or should be 1st then
>hammer selection or type, quality in casting, sound would be in tone
>and we are not musically inclinded so we do our best.
Don't get so buried up in details like this. This is how you get sucked into a
maze of confusion. One brand plays up a certain feature or point, and shows you
how "superior" they are to their competition. Example, (salesman speaking):
"Our piano uses 18 pound hammers, and brand X only uses 16 pound hammers". The
reality is, this is only one part of a much larger equation, and taken out of
context like this and turned into a "we're better than they are" sales pitch is
meaningless. Pick the category, and you'll find the quality of materials are
pretty much the same for every brand within that category. For instance, you
won't find the same quality of materials in a Japanese piano that you will find
in a Walter. But you'll find the same quality of materials in a Walter that
you'll find in a Steinway or a Mason Hamlin. Little details such as hammer felt
weight and stuff like that are then chosen based on what works best for that
particular piano, not so that it looks more impressive on a spec sheet. Rather
than trying to sort out each specific part and compare qualities from brand to
brand, you only need to know what category a piano belongs in, then the overall
quality will be similar to the others in that category. A young Chang or Weber
will overall be almost identical to a Samick, a Yamaha, a Kawai, etc. as far as
material quality. Individual differences will exist, but in general they won't
matter that much when comparing pianos within this category, and the finished
product will speak for itself.
When all is said and done, it very well may end up that a Yamaha *is* what you
want. Or one of the Korean pianos. But you should arrive at this decision only
after comparing other brands with an open mind, and without the spin you get
fed by salesmen or other well meaning "helpers" who inflict their own brand
preferences on you. And it should be a decision you arrive at without being
swayed by red herrings like "resale value" or "our hammers are better than
their hammers", stuff like that. It should be a decision you arrived at based
on your own determination that the piano offered you the most pleasing touch
and tone, and that satisfied your aesthetic desires, and that gave you the most
piano for your money.
Personally, if my budget was 10K, I'd buy a W. Hoffmann upright. If I just had
to have the look of a grand, I'd buy a 6' range Korean piano, brand name not
being a factor, just the one that I liked the best.
tim
too although not the model 8 you mentioned). IMO, they are not even close.
Some upright actions are very good for the money consider the price
difference on grands. But performance wise, non of them thrill as fast as
on a good grand. I hope one day I can try out this model 8 you mentioned to
see if that's a first. I just don't see it (past experience's so far on my
engineering side). How can spring operated "upright position" actions
compete with gravity helped grand actions. You have to wait for the action
to return to a certain point before you can strike again and that key travel
distance is always shorter on a grand. I'd like to see the design diagram
on this model 8 to see what they did (I hope they patented that break
through design) to overcome this physical flaw (originally intention was to
save space, not for fast actions). Unless there is proof that the travel
distance of key re-strike is actually shorter or equal to of grands' on this
model 8 you mentioned, we can only take this as your personal opinion.
Actually, if you have Bechstein grand and upright in your store (or ur
friend's store), you could do some measurements in your spare time for us to
settle (plus educate) this matter. Thanks.
Tim
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020616014318...@mb-bj.aol.com...
Amir Oren
> How can spring operated "upright position" actions
> compete with gravity helped grand actions.
What about those "magnets" assited vertical actions ("magnetic
repetition" as used by Seiler)?
"The only difference from a normal action are the 2 little magnets one
on the jack and one on the balance hammer. Simple but very effective,
it uses the power of the magnets to push the jack back under the notch.
Mind you if you put the magnets on the wrong way round the action
would stick :-) as opposites attract.
Barrie," (Heaton)
Amir Oren
> Well, thank you. There are lots of other people here who are very knowledgeable
> too, so get a consensus. I was just trying to make sure you shopped with a
> wider range of options instead of limiting yourself based on brand name
> recognition.
Your article was a good one, Mr. Fletcher. Alas, while it is true that I
understood it and even Dave Andrews and Ron Gardini (former Baldwin
pimps) might get a clue of what you were talking about, for a
non-player, without any piano background, there is no other option than
to hire an independent technician or a piano player friend to hunt for a
piano. Otherwise, lil' Susie will end up with an annoying PSO.
By the way, why didn't you mention the Baldwins as American made pianos
? Shame on you !
Best regards,
Amir Oren
(ducking)
tim
> ? Shame on you !
cuz he don't sell them. what he don't sell, he don't like. he only sell
what he like.... or he only like what he sell. ha ;-)
"Amir Oren" <ao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D0D83...@hotmail.com...
Larry
>> ? Shame on you !
>
>cuz he don't sell them. what he don't sell, he don't like. he only sell
>what he like.... or he only like what he sell. ha ;-)
I don't sell Petrofs either, but I praise their pianos. I don't sell Seiler,
Borsendorfer, Mason Hamlin, Estonia, or several other quality brands of pianos
either, but I have consistently praised them.
I suggest that you take your head out of your ass and look around once in
awhile. The view would do you good.
Larry
>? Shame on you !
>
>Best regards,
>
>Amir Oren
>(ducking)
Oops...... I keep forgetting them. They're not exactly a major force these
days. Besides, are they made in America? I thought they were made in some third
world country called Arkansas or something.... (JUST KIDDING.........)
Tom Shaw
of performing your experiment after the shot you took at him on your other
post on this thread.
TS
"tim" <tliangs...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:gy5P8.20833$qL5.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
tim
you need to lighten up. again, ;-) I thought that was funny though.
Mmmmm........very aggressive style you used there. better not piss you off
in the show room. ;-) please notice the ;-) this time and save the "ass"
word. I should stop by the store tomorrow and say sorry to you personally.
ha.
Larry is really great trying to educate everybody here on non-brand-name and
some not well known "good" pianos so you don't run off to buy Yamaha all the
time which he really hates (Please admit it, Larry). Everybody should go
out play as many different pianos as you can before you buy any Yamaha. Few
pianos Larry mentioned in this post really paly well. You own it to your
hard earn $$$. however, if you decide to buy Yamaha because you think they
have good quality and good resell value, I personally will not have any
problems with that cuz they do. So Thanks Larry. doing a great job. keep
it up.
Tim
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020616184036...@mb-mm.aol.com...
tim
second, ;-) really didn't work no more.
"Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:5E091C7EF23FF28A.05ABC0C4...@lp.airnews.net...
KeybdWizrd
>Larry is really great trying to educate everybody here on non-brand-name and
>some not well known "good" pianos so you don't run off to buy Yamaha all the
>time [snip]
There must be many challenges associated with trying to sell these "not so well
known" piano brands regardless of how good they are. I have to believe that
many, many pianos are purchased by non-players (parents with kids starting
lessons, etc.), and that the majority of these people are incapable of really
discerning audible differences between different brands. All these people know
is that that shiny new Yamaha piano looks and sounds a lot better than clunky
ol' upright at Aunt Betty's house.
People buy well-known brands for other reasons, too, that have nothing to do
with quality or tone. If Joe Suburbia buys a Petrof and has trouble with it,
well then he might imagine himself having to explain to his friends and family
why they heck he bought a Czech piano that none of them have probably ever
heard of. Best to play it "safe."
MW
Larry
>you need to lighten up. again, ;-) I thought that was funny though.
Sorry!!
Larry
>second, ;-) really didn't work no more.
Ok, Tim. I apologize. lol
Amir Oren
>
> If I were Larry
If I were a Rotschild... I would buy a grosse- kolossal-schwarz Hamburg
Steinway , "made with pride" by the krauts....
tim
enough to find one of these not so well known good piano and keep it for a
long time. It's a much different story say little Susie gave up after a
year or two and you are trying to sell the piano. Given the reliability and
sounding name of a Yamaha, you'd probably get rid of it in a week or two and
get most of your money back. Try that on some "not so well known" pianos.
They will really make you work hard to sell them privately. Cuz most of
them after they heard the name will go....."huh?" Pianos may be no less in
quality + tone department. But sadly, that's reality. BMW may be selling
less cars than say Toyota. But they clearly established their name and
place. People want one if they have enough $$$ to piss away on a fast
depreciated item. Scratch the depreciation part, it's just like Steinway
and Yamaha. I really don't know where to put these not-so-well known "good"
pianos in this analogy though. Some of them are family business. Without
significant capital, marketing and advertisement, I doubt they will ever be
popular. That's just too bad.
Tim
"KeybdWizrd" <keybd...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020616232711...@mb-ch.aol.com...
Larry
Tim, you did see my groveling apology to you, didn't you? Just making
sure...... :-)
>I really don't know where to put these not-so-well known "good"
>pianos in this analogy though. Some of them are family business. Without
>significant capital, marketing and advertisement, I doubt they will ever be
>popular.
Bear in mind that being called "name brand" or "popular brand" as it applies to
being plentiful in the marketplace, a recognition that is based on volume of
product to achieve mass recognition is not something most of the premium makers
are interested in having. They have limited production, the quantity dictated
by the standards which they set for building their products. They sell
everything they can build, and consider themselves to have all the following or
"popularity" they need to sell their annual production capacity. Marketing and
advertising to them is a waste, because they couldn't produce the volume of
product that might come from it.
It is up to the consumer to educate themselves to the point that they
understand this, and to realize that some pianos are built to a price point
while some pianos are built to a standard. Those built to a price point will be
able to produce mass quantities of product, and marketing and advertizing to
keep product moving is a necessity. Those built to a standard are not going to
hit "popular price points", and they won't have warehouses full of finished
product sitting around waiting on the marketing and sales guys to push out the
door. If one company builds 1000 pianos a week, they'd better be popular. If a
company builds 1000 pianos a year, they only need 1000 people a year to learn
about them. Usually their quality and reputation is enough to enable them to
sell all they build. So they place no importance on being known as a "popular
brand name" to the masses at large. They just want to find as many people who
have learned the difference and want to buy more quality than a mass produced
piano offers as they have the ability to produce pianos for.
Dave Andrews
<< It's one thing if you are fortunate
enough to find one of these not so well known good piano and keep it for a
long time. It's a much different story say little Susie gave up after a
year or two and you are trying to sell the piano. >>
It always amazes me how many people in the marketplace select a piano based on
the inevitable failure of their child, rather than planning for their ultimate
success by giving them the best possible tool to do the job.
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
KeybdWizrd
>It always amazes me how many people in the marketplace select a piano based on
>the inevitable failure of their child, rather than planning for their
>ultimate success by giving them the best possible tool to do the job.
I strongly disagree with your perspective. Perhaps this point of view would
make sense to a wealthy person, I don't know.
I asked for piano lessons when I was six years old. It was 1963, my parents
were in their twenties, and had very limited income. My father bought an old
spinet piano from his brother for $200, which was a lot of money to them at the
time. I practiced on that spinet (a Betsy Ross) for six years. When I was
twelve years old my parents "upgraded" to a used baby grand that they picked up
for $750. After four more years (it was apparent that I was serious about my
piano playing after a decade of lessons), my parents spent $2200 on a new
Steinway 1098 upright. That was about a month's pay for my father at that
time, and I know they couldn't afford it. It would've been completely
unreasonable for anyone to expect my father to cough up money he didn't have to
buy an awesome piano for a six year old that might not stick with it.
I went on to be a piano major in college, and have fond memories of that $200
spinet to this day.
I'd argue that for the first few years of lessons, at least, any
fully-functional piano with reasonable action that's in tune will suffice.
Better to get a kid any kind of piano to start with than to provide no lessons
at all because you can't afford $8000 or $18000 for a piano.
Just my two cents.
tim
practice the same strategy when buying stocks. They often lost more than a
good upright but nickel and dime on their kids music instruments. Go figure.
Tim
"Dave Andrews" <dwas...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020617204623...@mb-mu.aol.com...
tim
> Steinway 1098 upright. That was about a month's pay for my father at that
> time,
Man, Steinway was cheap back then. They could be one person's "yearly
salary" now if not more. Darn it, I didn't know they improve their piano
quality 10 times over these years. :-0
tim
always be Larry. ;-)
Tim
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020617202722...@mb-bd.aol.com...
M. Slater
$25.In 1963 he bought a new Kohler &Campbell console for $800. I learned to
play on that piano. College came and went. My sister sold that piano last week
for: $25. The cycle continues!!
Mark
Dave Andrews
"It always amazes me how many people in the marketplace select a piano based on
the inevitable failure of their child, rather than planning for their ultimate
success by giving them the best possible tool to do the job. "
keybd...@aol.comnospam (KeybdWizrd) wrote:
<< I strongly disagree with your perspective. Perhaps this point of view would
make sense to a wealthy person, I don't know. >>
To disagree with me is your prerogative, no matter how ill advised. ;-).
Rather than for me to make an attempt to sway your perspective through my usual
approach (whining, badgering and cajoling), I am tossing out some questions for
you to consider. Maybe you will still disagree, or maybe you will see my
statement in a different light.
<< I asked for piano lessons when I was six years old. >>
How many children actually want to take piano lessons enough to request them?
Would piano (or other music) lessons be good for children who do not request
them or have any strong inclination towards music?
Is it possible for a parent to provide the element of motivation for a
non-motivated child? Should they?
<< It was 1963, my parents were in their twenties, and had very limited income.
>>
I am roughly 5 years your senior, and can relate to the humble beginnings
story. But humor me here. How many people _today_ go out to eat in
restaurants classified as fine dining establishments once a month? How many go
out to mid-level chain type restaurants (Olive Garden, O'Charlie's, Chi Chi's
etc.) twice a month? How many hit fast food places once or more a week? How
many drive deluxe mid-level or even luxury cars, and live in homes that are
perhaps a bit of a stretch mortgage wise?
Would you say that, given the importance of raising children and the benefits
to a music education, that there might be a better way to prioritize one's life
as a parent when it comes to where money is spent?
<< My father bought an old spinet piano from his brother for $200, which was a
lot of money to them at the time. I practiced on that spinet (a Betsy Ross)
for six years. >>
Would your practice time have been more effective on a higher quality
instrument?
Would there have been faster progress made had you been given a better tool
with which to learn?
Do you find yourself _today_ much more enthused over any time spent playing
higher quality instruments that are much more responsive and inspiring to your
musical thoughts than say with a marginal instrument? Do you think this
experience would be any less diminished with a novice?
<< When I was twelve years old my parents "upgraded" to a used baby grand that
they picked up for $750. After four more years (it was apparent that I was
serious about my
piano playing after a decade of lessons), my parents spent $2200 on a new
Steinway 1098 upright. >>
Did you succeed because of your piano history, or in spite of it?
If other children want to quit piano lessons a short time into the process,
should parents allow them to quit? If so, why? If not, how long should they
make them persevere?
<< That was about a month's pay for my father at that time, and I know they
couldn't afford it. >>
What percentage of parents fit this economic profile today and how many that
consider piano lessons for their children only do so out of some sense of guilt
-- but that the priorities are so low that the percentage of their pay they are
willing to invest is measured in days rather than in weeks?
<< It would've been completely unreasonable for anyone to expect my father to
cough up money he didn't have to buy an awesome piano for a six year old that
might not stick with it. >>
In establishing priorities, at what point does investing in a good piano
represent a budget imbalance? In what percentage of the shopping interviews
handled by piano dealers these days would you say that a customer is
over-extending themselves to give the best possible start to their child or
children? How many take the opposite approach and want to get by as
inexpensively as possible? Would this be a strong commitment to their
children?
<< I went on to be a piano major in college, and have fond memories of that
$200 spinet to this day. >>
Is nostalgia a hot selling item because our human capacity for accuracy with
our childhood memories is totally accurate, or is nostalgia a hot selling item
because we have a tendency to forget painful and/or difficult experiences?
<< I'd argue that for the first few years of lessons, at least, any
fully-functional piano with reasonable action that's in tune will suffice. >>
Is learning to play the piano an acquired mechanical skill -- like touch typing
-- or is there some element of ear training and technique development involved?
Would there possibly be an auditory feedback loop that could either encourage
or discourage a piano student?
<< Better to get a kid any kind of piano to start with than to provide no
lessons
at all because you can't afford $8000 or $18000 for a piano. >>
Would it be even better to take them to a place where they could practice on a
decent instrument regularly -- like in a church -- in order to not inhibit the
development of technique that is always a potential danger on marginal
instruments?
<< Just my two cents. >>
Wouldn't it have been better to put that money towards a good piano, Michael?
;-)
just another poster
> all due respect, are we on the same page here when we say "superfast
> trills"??? uprights have no chance due to action machenical design flaws.
> etc....blah blah blah). go ask any half decent pianists......
I was of the (mistaken?) impression some ng readers were _quite good_.
Some piano plunkers indeed have no chance handling any manner of trill.
Reasons are many/varied - the excuses ever moreso; first up, the piano!
> Tim
Sorry to somewhat disagree w/you, Tim - generalization is off-base, IMO.
--
"... to absent friends ..." mailto:kolo...@netscape.net
http://www.osteoporosis.ca
http://www.irongrip.com
"... infrastructure; sooner or later, it matters ..." (c. ibm)
. Arrau . Gilels . Gould . Richter .
Gerry Geddings
The Piano Guy wrote:
> > Try the W. Hoffman. Play one for
> > 15 minutes, and you'll never look at a Yamaha or a Steinway again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Larry Fletcher
> > Pianos Inc
> > Atlanta GA
> > Dealer/technician
> >
> > Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
> > Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
> > group on my website:
> >
> > Http://www.pianosinc.net
>
> Are there any uprights with a tone as good as a grand and action which
> enables you to play superfast trills?
Larry
>> enables you to play superfast trills?
>
>Gerry Geddings writes:
>No.
Are you sure? I mean....have you played every single upright made?
Gerry Geddings
was about to send him a not about what an excellent post he had just made when
you stuck in your ignorant foolishness.
Gerry
pTooner
action that will play in tune makes a good starting point for a beginner. The
problem is defining "any
fully-functional piano with reasonable action that's in tune". I suspect we would
have highly divergent opinions here. FWIW I started on an ancient Bechstein
upright which fit my definition at the time I was 9 years old. I guess it didn't
do my too much harm, but I suppose I really would have to ask my audience for an
unbiased opinion on that.
Gerry
pTooner
Jon Regen
As always, I would recommend buying a Steinway, as they are simply
unmatched in quality and tone. But if they are out of your price
range, you really can't go wrong with a good Yamaha. They sound very
good, stand-up well to heavy usage, and really offer a lot of bang for
the buck.
I had a U3 before buying my first Steinway, (and becoming a Steinway
Artist), and it sounded very good for an upright. Also, take a
serious look at the Conservatory (C) series, as they can sound and
play wonderfully.
Good luck in your search.
Jon Regen
www.jonregen.com
M. Slater
Jon Regen
Thanks for asking.
I still have my 1979 Steinway B for sale, as I'm leaving for the next
12 months on-tour.
MINT 1979 Steinway B - this thing roars! Respond if interested.
All my best.
Jon