Advice on brightening up hammers
Calin
I'd like to know what proportion of lacquer to thinner you use for
brightening up hammers, and how much does one application of it change the
tone
Also, how/where do you apply it on the hammers? Only on the shoulders or on
toip too? Using a brush, an eyedropper or ...?
Then, should it be done several times, or is once enough? How long does it
take until it's ready to play again?
This is for my smaller Bechstein which is pretty mellow; too mellow for my
taste.
Thanks,
----------------------------------------------------
Calin
http://calintantareanu.tripod.com
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Dave Foster
learned skill and requires alot of training. You can do very extensive
damage to hammers if you don't know how to do it, especially using lacquer
(which I don't recommend) and replacing a set of hammers is not a small, or
inexpensive, job. I suggest calling a Piano Technician who has done voicing
before. When it's done right, vs. not doing it right, it can make the world
of difference.
Dave Foster
"Calin" <email_d...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:a21b91$ttek9$1...@ID-22994.news.dfncis.de...
Rick Clark
by experimenting on many old pianos of little value, before applying
it to a fine piano".
That said, the recommendation is 4 parts thinner to one part
nitrocellulose lacquer (not acrylic)
As for myself, I don't use lacquer. I dissolve a tiny amount of solids
directly in acetone.
What I will add to that, is it also takes an experienced person to
understand when lacquering is called for, as opposed to hammer
shaping/filing, hammer ironing, or what may just be badly replaced
hammers in the first place.. Or perhaps the piano needs rebuilding or
new strings. Also one must have an idea of what the piano is
*supposed* to sound like. You don't want to try and harden hammers
beyond what the inherent scale design intends.
Also, if the hammers have been badly needled in the past, they may
simply be dead- beyond redemption.
Certainly, I would start with verifying that the hammers are a good
shape and have a nice striking surface and proper strike line before
resorting to lacquer. And if they do, I would iron them before
resorting to lacquer.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Calin
news:gTY08.33199$Vz3.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mellow is good. Don't mess with mellow. I'd trade a ton of brightness
for
> a pound of mellow. If you need more brightness get a hearing aid.
>
Dear Hmmm,
I don't need a hearing aid any more as I need this kind of advice. What I
need is some information on hardening hammers!
Besides, my hearing is good enough, and my preference for a brighter tone is
a matter of taste.
Calin
The piano is a Bechstein A, and the hammers have been recently
sanded/reshaped. They haven't been ironed. I'll tell my tech to iron them
first and see the result.
I won't do anything to the hammers myself, my tech will do it. I just want
to know beforehand what the procedure is.
What I'm really interested in is how much the tone changes if you apply 4:1
solution once. If it's a lot, maybe we should start with a more diluted
solution..
Where exactly do you apply the solution on the hammer?
What kind of solids do you dissolve in acetone?
Regards,
Calin
"Dave Foster" <dfo...@evola.com> wrote in message
news:a21m3c$m...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> My advice, Calin, is to NOT do it yourself. Voicing hammers is a very
> learned skill and requires alot of training. You can do very extensive
> damage to hammers if you don't know how to do it, especially using lacquer
> (which I don't recommend) and replacing a set of hammers is not a small,
or
> inexpensive, job. I suggest calling a Piano Technician who has done
voicing
> before. When it's done right, vs. not doing it right, it can make the
world
> of difference.
>
> Dave Foster
>
Hi Dave,
I'm not doing it myself, my tech will do it!
I hope everybody is happy now!
Rick Clark
>rick, thanks for the advice!
>The piano is a Bechstein A, and the hammers have been recently
>sanded/reshaped. They haven't been ironed. I'll tell my tech to iron them
>first and see the result.
Good idea. It doesn't take long, but the results are usually
noticeable. My hammer iron is something like a heavy brass soldering
iron on steroids, curved to fiit hammer contours, and contolled by a
power-reglating unit.
>What I'm really interested in is how much the tone changes if you apply 4:1
>solution once. If it's a lot, maybe we should start with a more diluted
>solution..
That's a good idea. Try 8:1 or even more dilute to start.
>Where exactly do you apply the solution on the hammer?
This will have a lot to do with individual craftsmen's techniques. I
have a very idiomatic technique that involves standing the action up
on end and using a syringe to drip it in the shoulders first on one
side of the hammer, then flipping the action on the other end and
dripping the other side. Basically, I put the liquid into the upper
shoulders and watch it spread toward the strike point. It's something
easy to show in person, but difficult to describe in words.
>What kind of solids do you dissolve in acetone?
They are acrylic pellets sold for the purpose by Pianotek. However, it
is equivalent to the technique of dissolving synthetic key top
material in acetone.
I use the most dilute concentration of pelleted solids, which is 1
teaspoon/8 Oz of acetone, or even half that strength. I'd rather use
multiple applications of the weak stuff and bring it up gradually. If
you use acetone, the solids are set in the hammer in an hour or so.
Lacquer takes longer. Sorry, but we Americans have never been able to
convert to metric. You'll have to do the conversions.
(Text taken from Rick Clark's master work "Things To Write To Pass
Time When Your Car Is In The Shop For 3 Days Even Though It's Just Old
Cooling System Hoses Going Bad, But Small Car Engines Today Are So
Badly Shoehorned And Plus A Bolt broke Off In The Thermostat Housing
So It Now Takes Forever To Do Simple Work And Costs A Fortune
Besides")
Most likely NOT available at amazon.com
Regards,
Rick Clark
Calin
After you apply the hardener (sparingly!) to the hammers, do you find that
the hammers need further voicing with needles, or not? Does the hardener
make the hammers harsh?
Your technique of turning the keyboard on it's side seems very good. I
thought of the same thing today, and we'll try it when my tech comes :-)
Do you put one drop of hardener on each side of the hammer or inject more
with the syringe?
Is 24 hours long enough for the lacquer to set?
Thanks,
Rick Clark
>After you apply the hardener (sparingly!) to the hammers, do you find that
>the hammers need further voicing with needles, or not?
If it is not a brand new set *of the type which is supposed to be
lacquered and needled* I am prepping, but rather an aftermarket
voicing job, my goal is not to have to needle them. That is the reason
for the extreme dilution. Better to apply 1 or 2 or 3 dilute
applications than a single application containing more solids. But if
they do become too hard, then needling is a must.
There is also the issue of hammer design. In the old days, virtually
all brand new hammers needed a liberal lacquering, then needling.
Nowadays, there are several approaches to hammer making, and some need
to be lacquered, but many not. If your Bechstein has the original
hammers, they probably can take a lot of lacquering, then needling.
But heavy needling can easily ruin some hammers today. Yamaha comes to
mind.
>Does the hardener
>make the hammers harsh?
That is a subjective term. Dilute applications, avoiding putting too
much into the crown region, and listening before another application
should prevent you from getting into trouble. However, once the
lacquer has set, it is usually a good idea to use sandpaper to lightly
break up the surface fibers at the strike point. This is to say you
are not sanding into the hammer- just dealing with the surface layer.
If you don't do this, you may well notice an unpleasant "ting" to the
attack.
>Your technique of turning the keyboard on it's side seems very good. I
>thought of the same thing today, and we'll try it when my tech comes :-)
>Do you put one drop of hardener on each side of the hammer or inject more
>with the syringe?
I watch how it soaks in. Heavily diluted, it will definitely be more
than a drop. I drop some into the left and and then right shoulders,
midway tween core and other surface, avoiding the crown, but watching
it creep toward the crown and toward the outer layers of the
shoulders. That is to say, per each *side* of the hammer. And you are
dropping it into the "side grain" of the felt, as opposed to the upper
layer of felt.
Another voicer may well do just the opposite- dripping or dabbing it
right onto the felt face, not the sides and letting it spread outward
as I do. IOW, I am applying the solution in the middle layers of felt
and letting it spread to the upper and lower layers from there, rather
than directly on the upper layers. But my way is uncommon, the other
way typical. But my idea is to put the bulk of the dope in the
shoulders and only a trace into the crown/striking point.
>Is 24 hours long enough for the lacquer to set?
Yes. the acetone mix goes much faster, which is the main reason I use
it.
Keep in mind this is a subject worthy of a book. You're not going to
become an expert from a few tips on the internet.
One such book is Das Intonieren von Flugeln (Grand Voicing in
translation) by Franz Rudolf Dietz.
Also, some manufacturers like Renner offer specific techniques for
ther hammer designs. There is no one-size-fits-all. But the Dietz
tract is appropriate for an old Bechstein, assuming they are the
original type hammer in it.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Larry
>Basically, I put the liquid into the upper
>shoulders and watch it spread toward the strike point.
>They are acrylic pellets sold for the purpose by Pianotek. However, it
>is equivalent to the technique of dissolving synthetic key top
>material in acetone.
Isn't it funny how each technician will develop his own preferences? I prefer
lacquer to keytops. And I drip it just off the strike point and watch it spread
from there.
And your car wouldn't keep tearing up on you if you'd keep those darned
manatees out of it.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
group on my website:
Rick Clark
>Isn't it funny how each technician will develop his own preferences? I prefer
>lacquer to keytops. And I drip it just off the strike point and watch it spread
>from there.
I only use the acetone mix because of the speed of curing. I can tune
the piano afterward, and then decide if it needs more dope. Lacquer
takes much longer before you know how bright they will actually get. I
don't know if the pellets I use are exactly the same as keytops ( they
are clear), but the principal is the same I think.
>
>And your car wouldn't keep tearing up on you if you'd keep those darned
>manatees out of it.
Well, this time of year they are seeking warmth, you know. It's hard
to keep them out. Problem is, they keep breaking into the coolant
lines and sucking out the fluid. The stuff gets them higher than a
kite and then they're hooting and hollering and fornicating all over
the upholstery.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Dave Andrews
Chrysler motorcars, states in hushed tones as the Manatees frolic in the sun:
>Well, this time of year they are seeking warmth, you know. It's hard
>to keep them out. Problem is, they keep breaking into the coolant
>lines and sucking out the fluid. The stuff gets them higher than a
>kite and then they're hooting and hollering and fornicating all over
>the upholstery.
So how does one clean up that rich Corinthian leather?
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
Larry
>--
Well.....the first step would be to de-Greece it..........
Dwain Lee
"Dave Andrews" <dwas...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020115224135...@mb-md.aol.com...
>>Problem is, they keep breaking into the coolant
> >lines and sucking out the fluid. The stuff gets them higher than a
> >kite and then they're hooting and hollering and fornicating all over
> >the upholstery.
>
> So how does one clean up that rich Corinthian leather?
> --
Sounds kind of like a variation on an old joke: How can you tell when
manatees have been fornicating in your back seat?
Dwain
(If you don't know the old "elephant" joke.... the answer is "when you
discover they've used your trash bags as condoms.")
Dave Andrews
>Sounds kind of like a variation on an old joke: How can you tell when
>manatees have been fornicating in your back seat?
>
> "when you discover they've used your trash bags as condoms.")
The industry folks will be really "Glad" that these frolicking manatees found
the bags to be suitable for such a "Hefty" requirement.
