Advice on Purchase of Baldwin Hamilton
Gary M. Letchinger
I am an adult who has taken lessons for just short of two years. Right
now I have a 1970 Baldwin spinet in very good condition that was
purchased from a store run by a rebuilder (it was not rebuilt, of
course). It has been well maintained since we got it two years ago.
However, I would like something with a more responsive action and a
more mellow tone. My budget is rather limited. I really don't care
much about how the piano looks, but I want something that I can
practice on and develop my technique over the next 10 years.
The local Baldwin dealer has a stock of Baldwin Hamiltons model 243
that they are selling at heavily discounted prices. They are "new"
(i.e., never sold) and described as "old inventory." I would guess
that they are perhaps 2 or 3 years old and the cabinets are a bit
banged up with many small scuffs and scratches. The hammers show
virtually no wear and I believe that they are new pianos that were
sitting in a warehouse or a store for several years. I played several
of them. The one I liked the best sounded pretty good and the action
felt quite even and responsive. They were asking about $4000 for this
piano in a black satin finish, and offered to do some cosmetic work to
remove some of the scratches from the cabinet. They will give me some
trade-in value for my spinet and I could possibly bargain a few bucks
off the price, but they indicated the price was pretty firm on these
Hamiltons since they were already heavily discounted. I didn't pursue
any further bargaining during this first visit.
The Baldwin dealer was nice with little of the piano selling BS and
they even invited me to try the 9' Bechstein they had in the Bechstein
showroom. That piano sounded *very* nice with a surprisingly light
action but very responsive and with an exceptionally clear tone
(especially the bass). Out of my price range, though, unless I sell my
house.
The other alternative is a used Kawai or Yamaha U-1 that I saw at
another dealer. The Kawai looked to be in good condition and sounded
good (and was closer to a 48"), but was clearly a used piano. The
Yamaha was a gray market import that was cosmetically redone but not
rebuilt or restored in any significant way. The dealer was quite frank
in stating that he buys the gray market imports from a distributor and
sells them due to the demand for the Yamaha name. He provides a
warranty and has had pretty good results, but he was candid that there
was no guarantee that the piano wouldn't develop problems after years
of use. For this reason, I tend to prefer the Kawai. Plus, I just
liked the sound of the Kawai better than the Yamaha. I also liked this
dealer and he is highly recommended by several people.
Because of budget constraints, I can't afford something like a new
Charles Walter. I played a new Petrov that was also quite nice but
also too expensive. So my choice basically boils down to the "new"
Baldwin Hamilton or a used Kawai (or similar used piano). I'm inclined
to go with the Baldwin Hamilton but I'm going to look at the Kawai
again today. I would appreciate opinions on the Baldwin Hamilton and
how it may compare to a 10 or 15 year old Kawai 48" in good condition.
I would also appreciate comments about new vs. used pianos in general,
keeping in mind that the I plan on keeping the next piano for quite a
while.
BTW, I have a copy of The Piano Book by Larry Fine and I have read a
number of other piano books from the library (as well as lurking in
this group for the past 18 months). I am aware of the Baldwin
corporate situation and the potential impact on the piano warranty. A
am also aware of the pros and cons of gray market imports. So these
topics may be ignored for the present discussion.
Thanks for any input.
- -
/**********************************************************************\
* Gary M. Letchinger
* San Diego, California
* Reply to the newsgroup only
\**********************************************************************/
Dave Andrews
<< I am in the market for an upright piano to replace my Baldwin spinet.
...
The local Baldwin dealer has a stock of Baldwin Hamiltons model 243
that they are selling at heavily discounted prices. They are "new"
(i.e., never sold) and described as "old inventory." I would guess
that they are perhaps 2 or 3 years old and the cabinets are a bit
banged up with many small scuffs and scratches. The hammers show
virtually no wear and I believe that they are new pianos that were
sitting in a warehouse or a store for several years. I played several
of them. The one I liked the best sounded pretty good and the action
felt quite even and responsive. They were asking about $4000 for this
piano in a black satin finish, and offered to do some cosmetic work to
remove some of the scratches from the cabinet. They will give me some
trade-in value for my spinet and I could possibly bargain a few bucks
off the price, but they indicated the price was pretty firm on these
Hamiltons since they were already heavily discounted. I didn't pursue
any further bargaining during this first visit >>
Consider this a vote for the Hamilton.
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
Fredisg
>Hamiltons since they were already heavily discounted.
I hate to break this to you but $4,000 is hardly a "heavily discounted" price
for a 2 or 3 year old piano made by a company that will not honor a warantee
for old product. The $4,000 figure is more than Baldwin was selling brand new
243's to schools and churches one year ago.
You should look more carefully before you plunk down 4K for one of these pianos
unless you love it and can't do without it.
Good luck in your shopping.
Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor
Gary M. Letchinger
Thanks to you and Dave Andrews for the input.
The price on the Hamilton was the tag price. I suspect that I can get
it bargained down a wee bit. I don't want to waste my time bargaining
until I decide on the particular piano. The store will warranty the
piano for 5 years. We never discussed whether Baldwin would honor a
longer warranty or not, and I pretty much assumed that the only
warranty would be from the dealer. But this is not a used piano; it is
new from pre-bankruptcy inventory.
While I'm not in the business, I think a retail store is going to
charge more than what the manufacturer would charge when selling a
piano directly to an institution. But if this is overpriced for this
piano, even at a full service retail store, then I would appreciate
knowing this. There is no piano that "I can't do without it." I didn't
think that this was some sort of special price ("Sale ends today! Act
quickly before you lose out!") but just what the market will bear for
the old inventory of Baldwins.
I went and played the Kawai again today. It was made in 1981and it is
the 48" studio made in Japan. The piano showed very little wear for
its age. The action felt very uniform and quite stiff (which I like)
but I found playing trills on the Baldwin to be slightly easier. The
sound was quite nice and better than the Baldwin, but perhaps a little
bit bright in the upper-midrange. The cabinet was open at this point
so it was exaggerating the effect, and I think a little voicing would
correct this in any event. Overall, it is a nice piano for a little
less money than the Hamilton. It has a more attractive cabinet than
the Hamilton, which not a major factor but it may be more palatable to
my wife.
Mr. Fine's book states that the 48" Kawai is the lowest quality of the
studio line, but it is "a good value for casual use in the home." Not
exactly a glowing review, but the review of the Hamilton was also less
than glowing.
Two more stores to check out tomorrow.
Dave Andrews
<< The price on the Hamilton was the tag price. I suspect that I can get
it bargained down a wee bit. I don't want to waste my time bargaining
until I decide on the particular piano. The store will warranty the
piano for 5 years. We never discussed whether Baldwin would honor a
longer warranty or not, and I pretty much assumed that the only
warranty would be from the dealer. But this is not a used piano; it is
new from pre-bankruptcy inventory. >>
I normally don't comment much on pricing in the newsgroup but for what it's
worth, in the pre-bankruptcy days, your $4k price would have been an amount one
could expect to pay for a 243 Hamilton in Walnut or Satin Ebony -- Oak might
have been $50 to $100 less. Baldwin has had institutional rebate programs off
and on in the past where a school or church could have gotten a break to the
tune of another $150, and some dealers would have aded to that price
concession. In multiples, an institution might do a little better. There are
also dealers that sell at both higher and lower prices. If they give you a
reasonable trade allowance, I think you're doing fine on this one, however.
<< Mr. Fine's book states that the 48" Kawai is the lowest quality of the
studio line, but it is "a good value for casual use in the home." Not exactly a
glowing review, but the review of the Hamilton was also less than glowing. >>
I have had a love-hate relationship with Mr. Fine's book over the years. As
far as I can tell, it is fairly accurate, but there are always things that
contradict the norm. A really nice Baldwin Hamilton is a pretty safe choice,
very durable, serviceable and musically expressive. The first piano I ever
bought on my own after getting married was a Hamilton. I sold it to a piano
teacher 25 years ago, and she still uses it regularly and raves about it. So
if you have played the one there enough to know it well, and you like it, I
don't think you will ever be disappointed. It's not a real pretty piece of
furniture, but it has an honest look to it. You can buy fancy brass ball
casters at the hardware to replace the ones in front to dress it up a bit.
Hope this helps.
pianoguy
> but it has an honest look to it.
True, I never saw a Baldwin piano that looked like a criminal.
Sorry...I couldn't resist.
--
John Inzer
pianoguy
return email disabled
Dave Andrews
Dave wrote:
> but it has an honest look to it.
============================================
True, I never saw a Baldwin piano that looked like a criminal.
Sorry...I couldn't resist.
============================================
I've always wanted to ask you, John, why is it that when you present your bill
to a client, you wear a ski mask?
;-)
pianoguy
> I've always wanted to ask you, John, why is it that when you
> present your bill to a client, you wear a ski mask?
As soon as I get the cash I'm going to the slopes.
Dwain Lee
Dwain
"Fredisg" <fre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020710174344...@mb-dh.aol.com...
Larry
>> but it has an honest look to it.
Pianoguy wrote:
>True, I never saw a Baldwin piano that looked like a criminal.
I did once. It was a real bia......fiasco..........
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Want to visit another piano related messageboard? Go to the piano discussion
group on my website:
pianoguy
> I did once. It was a real bia......fiasco..........
;-)
Dave Andrews
> I did once. It was a real bia......fiasco..........
============================
;-)
============================
Dave adds:
Fredisg
>
>Dwain
>
Aha! you have been asleep the past few weeks. A while ago when I found out
that people were using pseudonyms on this newsgroup. (not only that, but they
were using other names also!) I created Damion just as a joke. I truly could
not understand why people were using fake names unless they were international
fugitives hiding from authorities in more than 14 countries.
So there you have it. DAMION!
The artist formerly known as Irwin Goldberg!
Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor
Fredisg
>worth, in the pre-bankruptcy days, your $4k price would have been an amount
As usual, I agree fully with Dave's astute and otherwise sound judgements. I
realize that pricetalk on this group may be considered to be a bit tacky and I
avoid it, but thanks for saying what had to be said Dave. $4,000 is no bargain
nor even a good price for new old stock.
Also, Gary misunderstood that perhaps schools and churches were being sold
the 243's from Baldwin directly but this is not the case. They were being sold
directly from retail dealers. Last April I was looking for two school studio
pianos for delivery in May, 2001. The Baldwin dealer in town was right in line
with Yamaha at a figure quite a bit below $4,000 but more than $3,000.
I ended up purchasing two Charles Walters because they fell within my budget.
But, the purpose of this whole tale is to let Gary know that he should shop and
be careful. Certainly, at $4,000, the Hamilton will serve him well, but I
almost wonder if he might be able to pick one up made by the NEW Baldwin
company for the same or close price.
and just think,,,,,it will come with a lifetime supply of guitar picks!
The artist formerly known as Irwin Goldberg
Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor
Gary M. Letchinger
Thanks for the input. I now see that the dealer in question was using
the old "special sale" trick and I was more receptive than I should
have been. I also remembered that they are the dealer who is always
running the "college music department sale" ads, and they were
hesitant to give me cash credit for my trade-in. They wanted me to
sell it on consignment instead, which means that I would have to wait
months to see the money. So that dealer is out, although I would
consider a Hamilton from another dealer if available.
Went to two other dealers today. One had a new Kawai 506S console that
was actually a nice piano. The dealer was honest about the trade-in,
and was quite willing to bargain down from the sticker price of $4200.
So as things stand now, my choice is between the used Kawai 48" (which
looks very clean) and a new 44" Kawai. I'm inclined to go with the
used piano because it is a better model and it does have a somewhat
better sound. It is 20 years old but it looks immaculate inside.
So what's the better deal: a new 44" console or a used, 20 year old
48" studio in very good condition?
Nostradamus
>
> I truly could
> not understand why people were using fake names unless they were international
> fugitives hiding from authorities in more than 14 countries.
Joey Adams .............................. Joseph Abramowitz
Eddie Albert ...............................Eddie Heimberger
Woody Allen.............................. Allen Konigsberg
Lauren Bacall ........................... Joan Perske
Ernest Borgnine .........................Effron Borgnine
George Burns ........................... Nathan Birnbaum
Joan Blondell............................. Rosebud Blustein
Mel Brooks .............................. Melvin Kaminsky
Joey Bishop .............................. Joey Gottlieb
Charles Bronson ....................... Charles Buchinsky
Tony Curtis ............................... Bernie Schwartz
Kirk Douglas ............................ Isidore Demsky
Bob Dylan ..................................Robert Zimmerman
Joel Grey .................................. Joel Katz
Elliott Gould ................................Elliott Goldstein
Paulette Goddard ....................... Paulette Levy
Danny Kaye.................................. David Kominsky
Larry King......................................Larry Zeiger
Tony Randall .............................. Sidney Rosenberg
Edward G. Robinson .................. Emanuel Goldenberg
Gene Wilder................................ Jerome Silberman
So there you have it, Mr. Goldberg.
I rest my case.
Michel de NostreDame
PS - Mr. Goldberg, do you know anything about the ethnic origins of
NostreDame family ?
Dave Andrews
<< PS - Mr. Goldberg, do you know anything about the ethnic origins of
NostreDame family ? >>
Doesn't "Michel de NostreDame" translated into English mean "Mick with Ladies
Nose"?
M. Slater
>Nose"?
No, no, no. "Mike, Our Girl".
Mark
Nostradamus
>
> Michel de NostreDame wrote:
>
> << PS - Mr. Goldberg, do you know anything about the ethnic origins of
> NostreDame family ? >>
>
> Doesn't "Michel de NostreDame" translated into English mean "Mick with Ladies
> Nose"?
Eyes wide shut...
Mr. Andrews, it seems that your son does not understand the meaning of
"ethnic". Neither did he got my point with the list of "name changers".
"Jean de Saint-Rémy, a doctor, passes on his knowledge to his great
grandson Michel. He educates him the cycles of nature, the seasons and
the stars, the recurrent religion wars and conflicts and the wanderings
of his people, the Jews. He reveals the mysteries of the Kabbalah which
were handed down to him by his ancestors. In the beautifully and magic
landscape of St. Rémy de Provence, Michel de Nostredame inherits the
secrets of the world of learning and nature that will be a constant
inspiration for his life's Work and Art !"
Dave Andrews
<< Mr. Andrews, it seems that your son does not understand the meaning of
"ethnic". Neither did he got my point with the list of "name changers". >>
He is a slow learner. Please be patient with him.
<< "Jean de Saint-Rémy, a doctor, passes on his knowledge to his great
grandson Michel. He educates him the cycles of nature, the seasons and
the stars, the recurrent religion wars and conflicts and the wanderings
of his people, the Jews. He reveals the mysteries of the Kabbalah which
were handed down to him by his ancestors. In the beautifully and magic
landscape of St. Rémy de Provence, Michel de Nostredame inherits the
secrets of the world of learning and nature that will be a constant
inspiration for his life's Work and Art !" >>
Roll up your pants, folks. It's too late to save your shoes. ;-)
pianoguy
> Roll up your pants, folks. It's too late to save your shoes. ;-)
Hmmmm, I'm guessing it's not just Shinola?