Had my piano tuned today - WITH REYBURN CYBERTUNER!!!
Hmmm... (a.k.a. glentek)
my piano by ear, and always has done a great job. Today he pulled a laptop
computer out of his tool bag and tuned my piano using Reyburn Cybertuner.
He used Cybertuner to record some sample notes from my piano. Then
Cybertuner created a complete 88 note tuning. He tuned each string using
Cybertuner, starting in the bass and working towards the treble.
The tuning sounds great. The whole process took less than an hour. My
technician says he likes to tune strings by ear, and then peeks at his
laptop screen to see how close he is. He said that he wishes he had
Cybertuner when he was learning to tune pianos. He said it is a great
educational too. He is very impressed by this product, and after watching
him work and experiencing the result, so am I.
Ed Foote
educational too. He is very impressed by this product, and after watching
him work and experiencing the result, so am I.>>
Greetings,
Techs have some wonderful tools these days. Now that your tech has an RCT,
next time, ask him if he would try a slightly different temperament. The RCT
makes it easy to produce a "Victorian ET", and I think you will like the
change.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
For CD's go to Gasparo.com. "Beethoven In the Temperaments" GSCD 332, and "Six
Degrees of Tonality" GSCD 344 .
Caution, these CD's contain pure intervals and extensive liner notes!
K'sei
By the way, Ed, can't a tuner choose to use alternative tempraments just by
changing the number of beats between specified intervals when tuning the
initial reference notes?
"Ed Foote " <a4...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010519082039...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
Ed Foote
<<looks like thinly disguised spam to me.
Hmm, I dunno. If you are talking about the RCT, it is not uncommon for
pianists that have always had aural tuning to notice a difference when a
computer equipped technician gives them a clinically equal temperament. The
machines can get closer, on good pianos, than 95% of the working tuners.
>>By the way, Ed, can't a tuner choose to use alternative tempraments just by
changing the number of beats between specified intervals when tuning the
initial reference notes?>>
Yes, in the same sense that one can solve a Rubric's cube by just putting
all the colors on each side! When you move one note in a temperament, you
change its relationships with all the others. "just by changing the number of
beats between specified intervals " sounds simple, but in practise, the number
of beats (bps) will change if either or both of the notes of the interval is
changed.
Temperaments have to be in a particular shape if they are to assist in
adding any historically accurate dimension to the composers tonal choices.
They are not helter-skelter mish-mashes of calm keys and dissonant ones.
Tuning to form a pattern of rising dissonance with key signature requires a
plan, and today's tuners will rarely be able to justify the time required to do
this, aurally.
If a tuner learns to produce a passable equal temperament, that is enough
to earn a living. It is NOT enough to fully enhance the baroque, classical,
and romantic repertoire! Equal temperament is simply the best *compromise*,
not necessarily the best tuning for any given piece of music.
The machines allow us techs to apply the reseachers' results in our daily
working habits, making the harmonic palette of the piano's early composers,
and 21st century pianists are beginning to enjoy pianos with a much wider range
of expression because of it.
Well tempered harmony isn't just for mossy old music, either. The jazz
artists around here are really getting into it, and there have been several
major recording projects done in Nashville using a piano tuned in a
well-temperament, and more to come.
Robert S.
So what tuning did Bach use on his "Well Tempered Clavier?" Is it wrong for
me to
play WTC (I usually play through books 1 and 2 at least once a month) on my
piano?
M. Slater
Bach used a well temper. Not equal temperament. Most likely one of
Werckmeister's temperaments.I believe these are called "circulating
temperaments". Ed?
Mark
K'sei
> "K'sei" writes:
> <<looks like thinly disguised spam to me.
>
> Hmm, I dunno. If you are talking about the RCT, it is not uncommon for
> pianists that have always had aural tuning to notice a difference when a
> computer equipped technician gives them a clinically equal temperament.
The
> machines can get closer, on good pianos, than 95% of the working tuners.
No, I was talking about the message, which looks like an ad designed to sell
the RCT to tuners or to get customers to demand it.
> >>By the way, Ed, can't a tuner choose to use alternative tempraments just
by
> changing the number of beats between specified intervals when tuning the
> initial reference notes?>>
>
> Yes, in the same sense that one can solve a Rubric's cube by just
putting
> all the colors on each side! When you move one note in a temperament,
you
> change its relationships with all the others. "just by changing the number
of
> beats between specified intervals " sounds simple, but in practise, the
number
> of beats (bps) will change if either or both of the notes of the interval
is
> changed.
Amazing that the tuners of yore days were able to do such a complicated
thing.
My experience with aural tuning is limited to tuning harps (usually using
just intonation, occasionally mean temperament); I leave the piano tuning to
my tech, but I thought Reblitz' discussion of the Defebaugh and Potter
temperament procedures were pretty clear, and I assumed, perhaps naively,
that the historic temperaments were set in a similar way - tuning to
specific amounts of beating in specific intervals.
How does the RCT compensate for the inharmonicity of the strings that causes
deviation from the theoretically correct frequencies of the notes? Does this
not change depending on the precise stringing schedule?
> If a tuner learns to produce a passable equal temperament, that is
enough
>to earn a living. It is NOT enough to fully enhance the baroque,
classical,
>and romantic repertoire! Equal temperament is simply the best
*compromise*,
>not necessarily the best tuning for any given piece of music.
I'm being naive again, I guess, but if the performer is picky enough and
talented enough to be playing that extent of repertoire, isn't it likely
that a highly experienced and talented tech will be retained who will have
the skill and knowledge to apply a tuning that satisfys the artist?
BTW, a good way to experience some of these tunings is to try out an
electronic that features them, such as the high end Rolands.
Ed Foote
<<So what tuning did Bach use on his "Well Tempered Clavier?"
Greetings,
This is a subject of great debate. We can eliminate equal temperament for
a variety of logical-historical-musical reasons, and then we must look at what
the record shows as the current state of tempering and intonation in 1722. A
circulating,(which means no wolf intervals), unequal,(which means each key had
a different size tonic third) tuning is a logical choice.
The WTC can be looked at from many perspectives, and one of them is
temperament. Asssuming that Bach was using one of the Werckmeister style
tempering schemes, it makes sense that the prelude in C is composed the way it
is. In fact, once you get your hands on a well tempered piano and play through
the 24, a lot of things will become less coincidental, i.e.
Since the hallmark of C in a well temperament is the lack of tempering,
this prelude shows how the melodic line can rest upon the overtones from notes
far below and sound harmonious. In an equal temperament, you miss this
consonance, since all thirds are about 14 cents out of tune.
The prelude in C#, however, shows us an entirely different approach. The
C#-F third in this key,(assuming it is well tempered), is a very wide 21 cents!
This is considerably harsher than our ET third, and on the extreme opposite of
a the tonality in C. So, how does Bach use a key with this much harshness? He
has the left hand alternate the notes, which precludes any beating, but
allowing the stimulative effect of the wide third to be felt. This is how a
composer can mask the "out-of-tuneness" in a highly tempered key. Neat trick,
eh?
Bach was teaching on many levels at once when he wrote the WTC. Since he
titled it to denote a particular intonational concept, I submit that the tuning
for this work is critical to understanding the music and writing it represents.
Not only do the different keys represent different fingering requirements, but
the differing tonal natures of the keys on a well tempered keyboard in 1722
pose some challenges for the composer. Understanding the tonal implications of
the keys will add a profound dimension to the WTC. It is what it is all about.
>>Is it wrong for me to
play WTC (I usually play through books 1 and 2 at least once a month) on my
piano?>>
No! there is nothing wrong with playing music, period. I have heard
some of this played on Calypso steel drums and the genius of that old German
still comes through. I think you will find it an engaging experience if you
have your tuner tune your piano in a slightly modified ET, however.
These Victorian era modifications don't interfere with the pianos use for
the most modern stuff, but the slight addition of a tonal center makes pre-1900
music more complete.
I have only had three customers in 5 years return to equal temperament
after hearing the alternatives. Numerous technicians around the country have
expressed the same sort of response. Talk to your technician about a slight
departure from ET, it is easy to use for Debussy or Ravel or Grieg, and makes
the big difference for Bach!
Ed Foote
<<change its relationships with all the others. "just by changing the number of
beats between specified intervals " sounds simple, but in practise, the
number of beats (bps) will change if either or both of the notes of the
interval is changed.<<
K'sei writes:
>>Amazing that the tuners of yore days were able to do such a complicated
thing.
We are still doing it! However, ET is a mathematical construct that
requires tests and measurements to get right,(and we know when those tests were
first developed). The tuners of yesteryear didn't rely on that approach
because they were not tuning in equal temperament,but rather, an musically
inspired division of the notes. More a matter of taste over clinical
measurement.
This skill is about lost today, but at one time, to tune meant to make
decisions inre how much tempering to put in one or another key. Thus, the
value of Owen Jorgensen's research(along with Murray Barbour), and the modern
tuning machines that can be programmed. We can recreate some harmonic
resources that ET doesn't provide. It appears that these resources were
compositional elements in the classical piano music.
>>I'm being naive again, I guess, but if the performer is picky enough and
talented enough to be playing that extent of repertoire, isn't it likely that a
highly experienced and talented tech will be retained who will have the skill
and knowledge to apply a tuning that satisfys the artist?<<
Sadly, no. It has only been in the last 10 years that the historical tunings
have been investigated from the working technicians point of view. Progress is
being made, but the older piano technical communinity is extremely
conservative, and many of the senior techs consider ET to be the realized
ideal, everything else is inferior! They have their heads in the sand, of
course, but time is against them. Intonation has never stayed still, and its
evolution is continuing on today, even when it means taking a step back. I
personally think that far in the future, Equal Temperament will be regarded as
a curious 20th century detour, taken by a world that was blinded by science.
Fortunately, I am finding that piano students and session musicians are
listening more closely to the actual sounds they are producing, and the
introduction to something more musical than ET is usually quite an epiphany for
them.
>>BTW, a good way to experience some of these tunings is to try out an
electronic that features them, such as the high end Rolands.>>
Yes, this may be a big plus in the re-acquaintence with the temperaments. The
tonal qualities of the keys really needs the strings and hammers of a piano to
show itself, but the temperament switch on the better electronic keyboards will
certainly help the ear begin to recognize true key color.
PianoMan
try it out?
PianoMan
Peter Lupton
> Werckmeister's temperaments.I believe these are called "circulating
> temperaments". Ed?
What's the difference between 'well-tempered' and equally tempered then? As
far as I was aware, 'well-tempered' that Bach used was the same as equal
temperament - i.e. G# is the same note as A-flat, hence why he wrote all
those Preludes and Fugues in different keys to prove that it was a good
thing.
Peter
JW Holmes
a4...@aol.com wrote on 5/19/01 5:00 PM:
> of expression because of it.
> Well tempered harmony isn't just for mossy old music, either. The jazz
> artists around here are really getting into it, and there have been several
> major recording projects done in Nashville using a piano tuned in a
> well-temperament, and more to come.
> Regards,
Ed I'm curious about this type of tuning for Jazz. I don't know a lot about
Well Tempered tuning, but with all the modulations that one typically does
in jazz I would guess these sound quite different than what one is used to.
Does it create any problems for the jazz players.
Thanks
JW
Roy Peters
http://www.reyburn.com/cybertuner.html
Roy Peters
M. Slater
>What's the difference between 'well-tempered' and equally tempered then? As
>far as I was aware, 'well-tempered' that Bach used was the same as equal
>temperament - i.e. G# is the same note as A-flat, hence why he wrote all
>those Preludes and Fugues in different keys to prove that it was a good
>thing.
Peter, that's a logical question. I've been trying to make a pianist friend of
mine understand this same question also. When you tune in pure Meantone, G# is
not the same note as Ab. Well Temper values the size of the tonic thirds. The
different Well Temperaments vary the size of the thirds and fifths so that all
keys become available without any "wolf" notes. Equal Temperament is a
mathematical solution to using all the keys at the expense of maintaining their
"character". In ET, all keys sound the same. In WT, they don't. Ed Foote
explained this in another post. How'd I do, Ed?
I know what it is, it's just hard to explain.
Mark
Hmmm... (a.k.a. glentek)
Nope. No spam. Just wanted to share the experience. I have never owned a
Reyburn Cybertuner. I visited their web site quite a time ago when was
looking for an electronic tuner. That's about it.
But now you've got me thinking..... Hey Reyburn! If you feel like sending
money to me, I accept MasterCard, Visa, or PayPal. Cash works too.
Glen
K'sei wrote in message ...
Isaac OLEG
Isaac O man
PianoMan <piano...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
9e91hi$3ph$1...@venus.telepac.pt...
Ed Foote
<< The
different Well Temperaments vary the size of the thirds and fifths so that all
keys become available without any "wolf" notes. Equal Temperament is a
mathematical solution to using all the keys at the expense of maintaining their
"character". In ET, all keys sound the same. In WT, they don't. Ed Foote
explained this in another post. How'd I do, Ed?>>
That is correct. The distinction lies in how much the thirds are tempered. I
will reprint the pertinent part of the liner notes below,
Regards,
Ed Foote
Before 1700, Renaissance and Baroque keyboards were tuned so that some
intervals were very consonant (also called "Just" intervals) and others totally
unusable ("wolf" intervals). With permutations, this tuning lasted from
approximately 1400 to the early1700's and is now known as Meantone tuning.
The wolf intervals limited composers to certain keys, so it was a "restrictive
tuning". Pure harmony is quite expensive from a modulatory point of view.
Between 1700 and 1900, temperament became non-restrictive, but not quite
"equal". All keys could be used, but some offered more harmony than others.
The importance of modulation in Classical and Romantic keyboard music proves
that temperaments with wolves in them were not in use. What is becoming
obvious today is that keyboard compositions of this era make strong use of "key
color"3, a quality found in the tunings called now called "Well Temperaments".
20th Century pianos were tuned almost exclusively in Equal Temperament,
creating a sameness to the keys' tonal characters that is unavailable in any
other tuning. It is this total and democratic allotment of dissonance that
makes Equal Temperament useful as a universal tuning, but at no small cost.
The price of convenience is the loss of historically recognized tonal variety
and contrast known as key color, or "The Character of the Keys".
Laurie Prior
>How does the RCT compensate for the inharmonicity of the strings that causes
>deviation from the theoretically correct frequencies of the notes? Does this
>not change depending on the precise stringing schedule?
>
tuning aids, actually can be programmed to store the "ear tuning" done
by the tuner and have different rates of inharmonicity built into the
device so that a full concert grand having longer strings and
suffering proportionally less inharmonicity than a small spinet have a
different tuning programmed in to use.
It can store a particular individuals tuning for every note.
So I would imagine, but don't know, that the RCT may have such a
device built in - if it's been designed correctly.
L Prior
Piano Technician SW England.
Remove 32's from email if replying personally.
SPAM@kawaius.com Don Mannino
Reyburn Cybertuner measures 5 or 6 As in the piano at the start. It uses an
average of 3 measurements for each of the As to establish the inharmonicity
of all of the relavent partials in each A. The amount of data gathered and
processed is pretty large - up to 12 partials for each A in the bass.
After creating this table of measurements, it then allows you to create a
tuning of different styles based on the measurements. So if the tuner and /
or pianist has a preference for octaves which are widely stretched, then you
choose one of the wider settings and calculate.
If the tuner is not happy with the basic stretch settings in the program (of
which there are 10), then the octave stretch settings can be tweaked within
each part of the scale to further adjust the tuning to suit the ear. This
means one can set narrow octaves in one part of the piano, and have the
octaves in another part slightly wider. This is something fine aural tuners
do without thinking about it too much.
Pianos have minor fluctuations of inharmonicity within the octaves which RCT
smoothes over. This is really the main difference between a strictly aural
tuning and what RCT provides - with RCT the notes progress very smoothly up
in pitch, whereas a fine aural tuning will vary slightly from note to note
to through the scale to adjust for inharmonicity. Which tuning sounds
better is highly subjective - it is extremely difficult to set up a truly
accurate blind test on real pianos, because the tone of the pianos
influences the sound of the tuning. Comparisons of tunings become
comparisons of pianos instead.
In other words, the difference between a very fine aural tuning and a
carefully set RCT tuning is essentially nil. In the end, it remains the
skill of the tuner which makes the piano sound good. A bad tuner will
always leave a poor tuning, no matter what method is used.
Don Mannino RPT
(Staunch aural tuner for 20+ years who now uses ears and computer together)
"Laurie Prior" <jpri...@32ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:rjlqhtk1b4fbn05et...@4ax.com...