Miracle piano tutor
Ashwin Ram
keyboard. What ages is it suitable for? Any good for preschoolers?
Thanks,
Ashwin.
Wayne Bostow
I teach piano lessons and the Miracle system seems to be based more
on marketing than educational value.
I know in my work that however carefully I go through and explain
lesson materials, that there are always questions, and the questions
are not always the same, they are particularly not the same from people
of different ages and backgrounds.
I don't think people would expect to learn swimming or boxing from
a computer and am frankly puzzeled as to public willingness to believe
they can learn music this way. I am willing to "change my tune" just as
soon as I see a single person making real progress with it. I've been
watching now for several years and have seen no evidence.
At it's best, if it worked, I would be seeing students coming to me for
advanced study after learning the basics from Miracle. It's not happening.
--
__________________________________________________________
Wayne Bostow "The HangulMan"
10558 Alcott, Houston, TX 77043 ph. (713)468-6546
wbo...@hounix.org
James Kalemis
I started playing the piano with the Miracle software. My advice is to NOT buy
the software/keyboard combo. Rather, buy the software and the best keyboard/
synthesizer you can buy - Casio and Yamahas are the best/most popular for the
home market. The "keyboard" that comes with the Miracle kit is cheap and you or
your children will out-grow its usability very quickly.
The software is very good. Includes both chord and playing practicing in
addition to "games" where you shoot ducks or rescue parachuters. I enjoyed the
software as an adult, and I'm sure children will enjoy it also.
Software goes for about $80US. A Casio or Yamaha is about $200-$600. You'll also
need a midi kit, about $50 with cables.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Kalemis, jka...@luc.edu , Loyola University
> opinions expressed not necessarily of Loyola University <
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reader of Science Fiction/Horror/Fantasy * Computer Hobbyist
Tropical Fish Hobbyist * Star Trek Fan(atic) * Novice Pianist
Tony R. Beltran
>
>
> I teach piano lessons and the Miracle system seems to be based more
>on marketing than educational value.
>
> I don't think people would expect to learn swimming or boxing from
>a computer and am frankly puzzeled as to public willingness to believe
>they can learn music this way. I am willing to "change my tune" just as
>soon as I see a single person making real progress with it. I've been
>watching now for several years and have seen no evidence.
>
> At it's best, if it worked, I would be seeing students coming to me for
>advanced study after learning the basics from Miracle. It's not happening.
>
I don't know about the Miracle System (have seen it advertised, but
not in action), but I do know of one type of software that does allow
the computer to teach certain aspects of piano playing. PG Music
(the Band-In-A-Box people) have a series of programs entitled:
"Jazz Piano", "New Orleans Piano", and "Ragtime Piano". These are
really just sequenced songs - recorded in real time on weighted
digital pianos to computer via midi. The computer plays the song
back and can display the sheet music while it is playing. The
value is that one can hear how a practitioner of the particular
style would play the song while one is looking at the sheet
music. This is really nothing more than listening to the record
while following with the sheet music. However, you can slow down
the playback (without changing pitch), repeat a section as needed,
stop and start as needed, etc. This software does not intend to
teach people how to play the piano, but it will enable an adept
player to learn/explore styles for which standard notation loses
something in the interpretation (kind of like reading printed words
originally spoken with important inflections).
Tony
--
Tony
"Saaaaayyyyy, this is starting to sound like Achy Breaky Heart"
-- Primus
Wayne Bostow
You could learn, say, a poem in Chinese by having a taped version, then
just repeating and rewinding and doing it again and again. I have little
doubt that this could be done with software or by other means with music
as well. If your only purpose is to be able to play the Star Spangled Banner
or some specific piece of music for parties and show off, you could probably
do this. That is not how the Miracle system is arranged and you will neither
leran Chinese, nor learn to play piano with that approach unless you do
it non-stop for dozens of years.
Nhat-Viet Phi
: I teach piano lessons and the Miracle system seems to be based more
: on marketing than educational value.
This is what I suspected from the beginning. I wonder how many gullible
Van-Cliburn-wannabe's they have suckered in?
I think that many families are simply getting sucked into the high-tech
do-it-yourself-in-the-convenience-of-your-own-home craze. I mean, why
not? You can do different kinds of office work at home; you can shop on
major networks; you can send very fast E-mail to pen pals around the
world; if you have a photocopier and/or a fax machine, you are more
"productive" etc. etc. etc. And (to a certain degree) it's all so easy!
Why not buy yourself a machine that claims to teach you at your own pace,
without the hassle of having to drive to the piano teacher every week or
writing a cheque every month? You gotta admit, the sales pitch is seductive.
: I don't think people would expect to learn swimming or boxing from
: a computer and am frankly puzzeled as to public willingness to believe
: they can learn music this way. I am willing to "change my tune" just as
: soon as I see a single person making real progress with it. I've been
: watching now for several years and have seen no evidence.
: At it's best, if it worked, I would be seeing students coming to me for
: advanced study after learning the basics from Miracle. It's not happening.
Yuppers. I happen to teach a course in "Advanced Racing Technique for
Ford Edsels"! Heh heh heh. Just kidding
Nhat-Viet Phi
nhat...@nucleus.com
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Don Carmon
Wayne,
Swimming and boxing is not analogous to computer aided instruction for piano, -unless you're one of
the few that can view a computer monitor and swim or box at the same time. However, as you
can read sheet music while playing piano, you can also view a monitor while playing.
I sense that as a piano teacher, the Miracle system has you slightly concerned about lost market
share of piano students.
What is your definition of 'real progress' ? Beginning this year I, could not read music and had
no idea how the piano worked. In March, I bought the Miracle system and have been quite successful
with it. I'm able to read music and play a number of beginner to intermediate songs.
The system teaches the basics such as notes, chords, rhythm and much mores. It offers immediated
feed back when you misplay a note or get out of rhythm. It offers too many features to mention.
The only problem I see with computer aided teaching tools is the lack of discipline some people have
in using them. A computer is not going to stand over your shoulder and make you do your homework
and exercises. The saying is true, "You only get out what you put in."
As for children, it's important to make learning fun so that they will continue the process. The Miracle
system offers exercises that incorporate games for learning chords, melodies, and rhythm (something
piano teaches may have difficulting competing with.)
Obviously, music theory would be better taught by a teacher. But after seeing what the system has done
for a musically impaired clod like me, I'm impressed with what it can offer a 1st yr piano student.
I do plan to take lessons at a much latter date. But for now, I'll continue entertaining my family and learn
interesting songs with Miracle.
Out of curiosity, have you even examined the Miracle system?
Michael Scott
: Is the Miracle piano tutor any good? It's about $200 including a
: keyboard. What ages is it suitable for? Any good for preschoolers?
: Thanks,
: Ashwin.
There was a review of this in last year's Keyboard magazine. It was kind of
humorous--they took a staff member who didn't play and let him try to learn
using the Miracle (both PC and Nintendo versions, using the Miracle keyboard).
The gist of the review was that they thought it might be a good adjunct to
a regular course of piano study for a child, but that no child was likely
to be able to learn effective piano playing using the Miracle system alone.
I will try to find my copy of this article so I can post the volume and
issue number here--maybe you can find it in your local library.
-- Mike
Wayne Bostow
>dca...@promus.com (Don Carmon) says:
>I sense that as a piano teacher, the Miracle system has you slightly concerned a
bout lost market
share of piano students.
Out of curiosity, do you sell the Miracle system? I don't claim to know
it in detail, but their ads show a Bach two-part invention that you are
supposed to be able to play after a year, which would certainly be faster
progress than any human teacher I ever knew. How do you play it without
fingerings? What do you do when you need to circle something you keep
missing?
How do you set-up? If you put the keyboard and computer on a table, you
are working at the wrong hight or did you spend hundreds more for a special
setup? Every adult that comes to me wants to play music. What makes you
so interested in chords and theory? Don't try to tell me you can learn
rhythm, the most important element of music from this, that's beyond the
state of the art.
Tell us about the kids using it. Why do you accuse me of not wanting
the competition when you say you plan to take lessons? No, my concern is
that people become confused and convince themselves that they lack talent.
If Miracle would work well, I would be more than happy to let it take
over some of the most basic and repetitive elements of teaching and let
me concentrate on artistic aspects.
Scott Hankin
> Out of curiosity, do you sell the Miracle system? I don't claim to know
>it in detail, but their ads show a Bach two-part invention that you are
>supposed to be able to play after a year, which would certainly be faster
>progress than any human teacher I ever knew. How do you play it without
>fingerings? What do you do when you need to circle something you keep
>missing?
Why do you assume it teaches you to play without teaching you fingering?
Why do you assume that the only way to remember something you keep
missing is to circle it?
> How do you set-up? If you put the keyboard and computer on a table, you
>are working at the wrong hight or did you spend hundreds more for a special
>setup? Every adult that comes to me wants to play music. What makes you
>so interested in chords and theory? Don't try to tell me you can learn
>rhythm, the most important element of music from this, that's beyond the
>state of the art.
I have an adjustable stand the unit sits on. It cost me all of $20 new.
Please elaborate on why rhythm teaching is beyond the state of the art.
> Tell us about the kids using it. Why do you accuse me of not wanting
>the competition when you say you plan to take lessons? No, my concern is
>that people become confused and convince themselves that they lack talent.
>If Miracle would work well, I would be more than happy to let it take
>over some of the most basic and repetitive elements of teaching and let
>me concentrate on artistic aspects.
I can't help but notice a trend here. You are the second piano teacher
I've seen on the net come out and criticize a system you have no
experience with. Why is that?
- Scott
--
-----------------------------
Scott Hankin (han...@osf.org) In the beginning, there was nothing, then
Open Software Foundation God said, "Let there be light." And there
1 Cambridge Center was light. There was still nothing, but
Cambridge, MA 02142 you could see it a lot better.
Glenn R. Howes
From: Wayne Bostow, wbo...@hounix.org
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 17:00:50 GMT
In article <1994Dec06.1...@hounix.org> Wayne Bostow,
wbo...@hounix.org writes:
>
>>dca...@promus.com (Don Carmon) says:
>>I sense that as a piano teacher, the Miracle system has you slightly
concerned a
>bout lost market
>share of piano students.
>
>it in detail, but their ads show a Bach two-part invention that you are
>supposed to be able to play after a year, which would certainly be faster
>progress than any human teacher I ever knew. How do you play it without
>fingerings? What do you do when you need to circle something you keep
>missing?
I don't sell Miracle systems either (I'm a chemistry graduate student).
I bought one a while ago and am quite happy with it. I don't expect to
ever become a performer or anything, it's just fun to sit down and play
something. In fact, I'm so happy I ordered another one for my little
brothers for Christmas.
As for fingering, for the pieces in the lessons themselves, the lessons
clearly tell you to do with your fingers so as to be in the right position
[bringing the thumb under the forefinger or scrunching the fingers up
to prepare for a shift or some such thing].
> How do you set-up? If you put the keyboard and computer on a table, you
>are working at the wrong hight or did you spend hundreds more for a
special
>setup? Every adult that comes to me wants to play music. What makes you
>so interested in chords and theory? Don't try to tell me you can learn
>rhythm, the most important element of music from this, that's beyond the
>state of the art.
I bought mine with the optional $26(?) adjustable stand. The instructions
clearly state how high the keyboard should be in relation to where your
arms hang. As it happens, I can just fit the keyboard under the
depressed shelf where my computer keyboard sits.
It seems to do a pretty good job at teaching rhythm. It certainly
doesn't tolerate very much in the way of errors in rhythm (sometimes
I wish it would).
--glenn
Steve Adams
: Is the Miracle piano tutor any good? It's about $200 including a
: keyboard. What ages is it suitable for? Any good for preschoolers?
The Miracle system comes in two flavors, one with a keyboard, the other has
software only and hooks up to your own MIDI keyboard. I had the first
variety. Opinion . . . the keyboard is a toy. Four octives, cheaply made,
inadequate electronics inside, and poorly designed and constructed. The
software was fun, no doubt about it. It made learning how to keyboard an
enjoyable experience. I did not get through the whole course before I gave
it up. Became very frustated with its analysis of my rhythm playing. Was
very unforgiving with my timing, both key down and key up. The worst of all
was that it taught chording with the left hand. My interests are in the
classics, and classical music vary rarely uses chording. But hey . . . it
got me started. Learning the piano has been a life long dream and using the
Miracle system gave me a flavor for what playing a piano is like. (I now
take private lessons biweekly, and play the music I *really* enjoy. No
more of this Hot Cross Buns junk).
My final analysis/opinion . . . maybe okay to start with. Won't take you
very far. Not worth $200.00, the keyboard option. Get the software
version (about $75.00) and buy a quality keyboard you can use later on.
Play with the Miracle for 6 month to a year to see if you like playing
the "piano", then if you enjoy playing, get private lessons.
One year with the Miracle will take you this far,
--->
One year with private lessons will take you this far,
----------------------------------->
(Again, just my own personal experience, and opinion. Flames to /dev/null)
Wayne Bostow
Scott Hankin (han...@osf.org)
> criticize a system you have no
experience with. Why is that?
I have looked at their ads and looked at the merchandise:
1) Ads too slick. Claims impossible. (I don't have to test snake oil to
know that it will not make me younger.)
2) Flimsy feel to actual merchandise as compared with glossy first-class
adverstisements.
3) Reliance on very suspicious sounding testimonials in advertising. No
reputable music, computer, or consumer magazine has given this system
any kind of recommendation as being able to do what it promises.
4) For the THIRD TIME, I do not like to see people get discouraged and
think they have no talent, then they don't take lessons. I have not
the least fear that Miracle can best me competitively.
5) Gross exageration of cost of private lessons. One can buy a comparable
keyboard for under $80. At $10 per week for 1/2 hour private lessons,
one can take about 1/2 year of private lessons before coming up to
the cost of a Miracle system.
6) Sales tactics that point at piano teachers and musicians in general
as being protective of their own turf rather than responding to
legitimate questions and issues.
7) High pressure sales tactics.
8) Suspicious posting on the net in its favor, including yours.
I asked you if you sell them. Why don't you answer that? I didn't
try to come across as a disgruntled user. Why don't you be honest with us?
> I have an adjustable stand the unit sits on. It cost me all of $20 new.
You must be a wholesaler then? I also asked where YOU sit?
In the advertisements, the Bach two-part invention is shown on the screen
with no fingerings. How is a beginner supposed to accomplish that?
Humans are not atomic clocks. The state of the art does not distinguish
between a delay looking for F# and actual misunderstanding of rhythm by
the learner.
Let me just give a quick example of what a human does. Suppose a student
sees the bottom line on the bass clef and plays E. (Should be G.) As an
experienced teacher, I recognize the student is confusing the treble clef
with the bass clef. The computer only knows it's wrong and cannot possibly
offer any quick help.
Teemu Hakala
>I don't sell Miracle systems either (I'm a chemistry graduate student).
>I bought one a while ago and am quite happy with it. I don't expect to
>ever become a performer or anything, it's just fun to sit down and play
>something. In fact, I'm so happy I ordered another one for my little
>brothers for Christmas.
That is a very good point. I play guitar because I enjoy playing nice
songs and I also enjoy learning, which I do from notation, tablatures
and by listening. I did not need any teacher, but it took damned long
time, and being not_so_regular with my music taste, I don't know any
songs anyone else knows, save for 12bar blues and rock. Playing with
friends is quite nice.
>As for fingering, for the pieces in the lessons themselves, the lessons
>clearly tell you to do with your fingers so as to be in the right position
>[bringing the thumb under the forefinger or scrunching the fingers up
>to prepare for a shift or some such thing].
Do you think you could play/learn a song from notation, and implement
some fingering for it? How about adding the "something", which lacks
from standard notation?
>I bought mine with the optional $26(?) adjustable stand. The instructions
>clearly state how high the keyboard should be in relation to where your
>arms hang. As it happens, I can just fit the keyboard under the
>depressed shelf where my computer keyboard sits.
I suppose you don't type very much/fast, because, if the Miracle sits
correctly and your computer keyboard is above that, the keyboard is in
very cumberome position. I strongly suggest you to do as I did. In my
setup the computer is on a table, and beside it, hanging between the
table and a shelf is my synth. The table is just the right height (it
took some time to adjust it), and I have a roller chair, so I can
switch swiftly between the two. The only problem for now is that when
playing, I feel kind of unstable, because my feet are in somewhat
hanging position. I plan to add a feetrest to the chair.
>It seems to do a pretty good job at teaching rhythm. It certainly
>doesn't tolerate very much in the way of errors in rhythm (sometimes
>I wish it would).
What about variations in rythm? I mean {changing the speed|being
slightly {ahead|behind} with {some|all} notes, compared to {you|the
others}}.
--
------------------------------
Press "n" for the next message
Wayne Bostow
>I don't sell Miracle systems either (I'm a chemistry graduate student).
I bought one a while ago and am quite happy with it.
It IS good to hear someone is doing well with it. As a chemistry grad
student, you are not exactly the target market. Can I guess that you
have had band or choir experience? or perhaps some, even just a few months
of piano lessons in the past?
Glenn R. Howes
wbo...@hounix.org writes:
>From: Glenn R. Howes <grh...@students.wisc.edu>
>>I don't sell Miracle systems either (I'm a chemistry graduate student).
>I bought one a while ago and am quite happy with it.
>
> It IS good to hear someone is doing well with it. As a chemistry grad
>student, you are not exactly the target market.
I don't know. Maybe a significant fraction of sales are to home
computer users who like tech toys.
>Can I guess that you
>have had band or choir experience? or perhaps some, even just a few
months
>of piano lessons in the past?
You could guess that, but you would be wrong. My extra-curiculars in high
school were: managing the basketball team, keeping stats for the
football team, and helping teach the computer classes. In Catholic
elementary school, we did do some choir singing, but I didn't learn
to read sheet music or anything like that.
Really Wayne, I think you ought to try one out before making judgements
based on your vision of it's limitations. I'm sure that human lessons
would result in a more skilled student; I don't think anyone is disputing
that. What I'm saying is that the Miracle system has given me a skill
level I find personally enjoyable and gratifying, without having to
schedule my life around lessons.
--glenn
================================================================
Glenn R. Howes \\ \\ // // Analytical Chemist?
grh...@students.wisc.edu // // \\ \\ Macintosh Programmer?
================================================================
Glenn R. Howes
te...@krkmoon.krk.fi writes:
>>As for fingering, for the pieces in the lessons themselves, the lessons
>>clearly tell you to do with your fingers so as to be in the right
position
>>[bringing the thumb under the forefinger or scrunching the fingers up
>>to prepare for a shift or some such thing].
>
> Do you think you could play/learn a song from notation, and implement
>some fingering for it? How about adding the "something", which lacks
>from standard notation?
This is something I'm just starting to try: going to the music store and
buying sheet music. I will admit freely that it is much easier learning
a song on the Miracle where the software gives you immediate feedback
when you hit the wrong note (if you are playing in note-only mode, the
cursor wont advance). I think that you do get used to knowing better
ways of fingering.
>>I bought mine with the optional $26(?) adjustable stand. The
instructions
>>clearly state how high the keyboard should be in relation to where your
>>arms hang. As it happens, I can just fit the keyboard under the
>>depressed shelf where my computer keyboard sits.
>
> I suppose you don't type very much/fast, because, if the Miracle sits
>correctly and your computer keyboard is above that, the keyboard is in
I think my computer keyboard is a little bit higher than it ought to
be, but other than when I'm writing reports, I rarely type for any
length of time.
[thoughtful advice deleted]
>
>>It seems to do a pretty good job at teaching rhythm. It certainly
>>doesn't tolerate very much in the way of errors in rhythm (sometimes
>>I wish it would).
>
> What about variations in rythm? I mean {changing the speed|being
>slightly {ahead|behind} with {some|all} notes, compared to {you|the
>others}}.
Like I said, the Miracle is not very tolerant of variations in what it
thinks is the appropriate rhythm. You of course can just let the
computer display the notes/advance the cursor and let you play the notes
at any rate/rhythm you want to without judgement.
I just noticed the long list of news groups this is being posted to. Isn't
there anyone else out there who cares to be Miracles' advocate. I enjoy
it plenty, but my primary hobby is writing Macintosh extensions, not
debating the finer points of musicical mechanics with professionals.
--glenn
Bill Cummins
Bostow) wrote:
> as a chemistry grad student...<snip>...
Wayne -- stick to your main points and you'll score higher.
--
Bill Cummins, 3490 Planning, Policy Studies and Information Systems
Illinois State University, Normal, IL 61790-3490
brcu...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Norman Bucknor
> Out of curiosity, do you sell the Miracle system? I don't claim to know
>it in detail, but their ads show a Bach two-part invention that you are
>supposed to be able to play after a year, which would certainly be faster
>progress than any human teacher I ever knew. How do you play it without
>fingerings? What do you do when you need to circle something you keep
>missing?
>
I haven't seen the ad to which you refer, but the Miracle documentation doesn't
make any outlandish claims about the skill level you will achieve using it.
It's described as a beginner's piano course-no more, no less. My experience
with it matches what Don Carmon describes: From no clue at all to being
able to play some basic two-handed song arrangements (I would say the
level of difficulty is comparable to the pieces in something like
Thompson's Level 1 Adult Course). If the ads you saw *explicity* claimed that
one could play a Bach two-part invention (in full form) after one year, it
was a misrepresentation. There certainly is no such piece in the lesson plan
of the version I have.
Your question about fingerings probably hits upon a key weakness of the system
if you use it by itself: There really aren't any drills for finger dexterity,
flexibility and independence (not sure this is the right way to describe it)
except within the context of playing the practice pieces. This may be
limiting in the long run. Another drawback is that all chords are in the
left hand for the most part; this may be par for the course at the beginner's
level-I don't know.
By "circle something" I assume you mean "repetitions"? You can do
this in practice mode. The only pain is that it's a little cumbersome because
of the program's interface.
> How do you set-up? If you put the keyboard and computer on a table, you
>are working at the wrong hight or did you spend hundreds more for a special
>setup? Every adult that comes to me wants to play music. What makes you
>so interested in chords and theory? Don't try to tell me you can learn
>rhythm, the most important element of music from this, that's beyond the
>state of the art.
>
In my setup, the Miracle keyboard sits on a stand made for portable keyboards.
The height is adjustable and the stand is inexpensive. When Don talks about
rhythm, I read it as the ability to play in time with a metronome. You can
learn (and internalize) this using the Miracle. It's probably one of the
best things about the system.
> Tell us about the kids using it. Why do you accuse me of not wanting
>the competition when you say you plan to take lessons? No, my concern is
>that people become confused and convince themselves that they lack talent.
>If Miracle would work well, I would be more than happy to let it take
>over some of the most basic and repetitive elements of teaching and let
>me concentrate on artistic aspects.
>--
>__________________________________________________________
> Wayne Bostow "The HangulMan"
> 10558 Alcott, Houston, TX 77043 ph. (713)468-6546
> wbo...@hounix.org
The Miracle is not a panacea but I think it does accomplish what it claims.
You won't be able to play a Chopin Etude after you've completed the course
but you will be able to play a decent-sounding "Silent Night" arrangement.
Don't knock it until you've at least tried it.
Norman Bucknor
Timothy Scott
>
>> Out of curiosity, do you sell the Miracle system? I don't claim to know
>
>
>> Tell us about the kids using it. Why do you accuse me of not wanting
>>the competition when you say you plan to take lessons? No, my concern is
>>that people become confused and convince themselves that they lack talent.
>>If Miracle would work well, I would be more than happy to let it take
>>over some of the most basic and repetitive elements of teaching and let
>>me concentrate on artistic aspects.
>
Dear Wayne
I hate seeing program bashing from an uninformed point of view.
It's my experience that most computer users learn their keyboard
(that's a QWERTY keyboard) skills with the aid of one of a number of
different software tutors. Why is it that they are prepared to
spend a deal of time perfecting their skills with one of these sorts
of packages??
I don't sell Miracle, I don't use it, I have seen it demoed but:
it's cheap
it's available cross-platform
it makes a nice present
it's well marketed
it works?? (It obviously gets people who otherwise wouldn't
take the plunge, practicing, fiddling and enjoying
music?)
How about asking the local computer store if you can borrow one
for a week (with a view to using it in your studio!) and
checking it out. Then come back to us with a summary of what you thought.
Regards
____________________________________________________________
Tim Scott, Director of Music, The Armidale School, Australia
Voice: 018 658 677 Fax: 067 738230
Daniel C. Armstrong
>
>In article <1994Dec08.0...@hounix.org>, wbo...@hounix.org (Wayne
>Bostow) wrote:
>
>> as a chemistry grad student...<snip>...
>
>Wayne -- stick to your main points and you'll score higher.
>--
>Bill Cummins
Bill, I happen to be a grad student in Food Chemistry and also a very
accomplished professional musician. I am a professional singer, and I also
play a mean trumpet, French horn, bass guitar, drums, etc.
I am just getting into keyboarding. It is something that I have wanted to
do my entire life, but because of all my other musical commitments, haven't
had the time. I think that I will probably be okay at piano, but it definitely
is going to take some time and a lot of hard work.
I think that anytime anyone who is not a musician wants to put his/her
"talents" to good use, so be it. Music is a universal language, not just
one to be spoken only by the musical elite.
Please be more tolerant of those who have talents in more than one area.
-Dann
\_|_/
< o o >
+------------------oOO----(_)----------------------------+
| Daniel C. Armstrong |
| C52...@Mizzou1.Missouri.Edu |
| GO CHIEFS!! |
+--------------------------------oOO---------------------+
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ooO Ooo
Ashwin Ram
piece of software that, while not substituting for piano lessons from a
human teacher (especially for achieving advanced skill levels), does a
commendable job of getting one off the ground.
It also looks like the Miracle software is worth buying but the keyboard
that it comes packaged with is not. I know next to nothing about MIDI and
keyboard issues -- can some recommend a "real" keyboard that I can connect
to my Macintosh and use with the Miracle system? Also, how would I
connect it? Are Macintoshes MIDI-ready (whatever that implies)? What
hardware/software would I need? I don't want to spend a fortune but if
the Miracle keyboard really is that limited I would like to consider
alteratives. (I have a PowerMacintosh 6100/60AV if that's an issue.)
Thanks much,
Ashwin.
Cornel Huth
>It also looks like the Miracle software is worth buying but the keyboard
>that it comes packaged with is not. I know next to nothing about MIDI and
It's difficult to justify $80 for the software only when the keyboard+
software goes for less than twice that (I paid $161, total, at EggHead).
The keyboard is MIDI-compatible (MIDI in/out) and for $80, is easily a
bargin. Why spend $300 (cheapest MIDI-capable keyboard I've seen) more
for something you may not use past week 1? If you grow tired of the
feel of the (practically) free keyboard, go out and spend $500-1000
for a medium-level keyboard.
I use the keyboard as an input device (MIDI), and use it to trigger my
MIDI soundcards (Rio giving the best sound). I could, yes, spend $1000
to trigger the soundcards, but that seems just a bit excessive -- I
don't even play.
--
cor...@crl.com anon ftp to ftp.crl.com /users/ro/cornel for Ruckus & Bullet
-------------- WWW at ftp://ftp.crl.com/users/ro/cornel ---------------
BBS/fax: +1-210-684-8065 / Monday-Friday after 5pm / Weekends 24 hours [-0600]
Wayne Bostow
The ads I have seen for Miracle target parents buying it for their
kids, as if they can just pay some money and forget about it. Just
think of the name itself "Miracle", I mean, give me a break. It's
offensive to a professional musician. I cannot "give it a try" as
I already know the materials. I saw many places where I would expect
an inexperienced person to get stuck or severely frustrated.
I should mention that the course seemed surprisingly traditional,
even rigorous and from a quick overview, it seemed accurate and
thorough. It looks useful for people who cannot get to or schedule
regular lessons, especially those who have prior music background,
but not necessarily keyboard experience, or those with extensive
computer training. Putting a 12 year old in a room with it is not
likely to show much result.
It's been interesting to hear the comments. What was once a "dealer
item" now seems readily available at substantial discount. The idea
of getting the software for under $100 and using a decent midi keyboard
sounds interesting for an adult hobbyist with occassional time.
Ian MacKenzie
Korg X5 this last Monday, I got Musicware's Piano at the same time. I am
totally pleased with it.
I wouldn't be able to get a piano teacher to work with me 24 hours a day.
I can sit down for as little or as long as I want. The instruction is
excellent IMHO. I took piano lessons 17 years ago when I was very little
and I don't feel a teacher could give me the same lessons in the same
time frame. The communication alone would slow the process down.
What the system can't do being software is watch your form, posture,
fingering etc. Piano continues to remind you how to keep your fingers but
of course, can't check on it. It has a wide variety of drills teaching
you all sorts of things from reading music to finger strengthening drills
to recognizing pitches, rythmn exercises, music theory, and on and on and on.
I've spent oh, 20-30 hours with it since Monday. I don't know what that
would have cost me in a piano teacher but it only cost me the price of
the software.
One final note, for me, the software makes the whole process MUCH MUCH
more fun. I'm so hooked I just ordered the second course for it.
Ian
P.S. Reading back over this, I realized that this might be taken as
hostile towards the piano teachers in this discussion. That was not my
intention. I just wanted to follow up on the discussion and share my
views about this last week's experience with Musicware's Piano.
--
,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,
/ Ian MacKenzie ^__^ -- se habla espaniol -- \
: irmac...@ucdavis.edu \____/ Davis Community Network :
\ World Wide Web: http://wheel.ucdavis.edu/~irmacken/homepage.html /
'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'~~'-,__,-'
Wayne Bostow
>It's difficult to justify $80 for the software only when the keyboard+
software goes for less than twice that (I paid $161, total, at EggHead).
Very recently, or at least it seems so, Miracle for the Mac with keyboard
was selling for $350+. I know my negative comments were based on something
far less than a 50% reduction, and EggHead is no fly-by-night.
Wayne Bostow
Normal music learning involves markup for frequent mistakes, i.e,
when you keep forgetting the F# from the key signature, you write
it in, you also pencil in counts, fingerings, mark spots that need
extra prcatice and circle or highlite areas of frequent mistakes
to call attention to them.
The Miracle brochure I saw, very clearly showed the Bach F major
two-part invention on the screen, no phrasing, no fingerings, nothing
just pictures of little kids who were going to learn this on their
own after a year. Maybe they've scaled back the claims as well as
the price.
People in this thread have been talking the $40 per hour nonsense.
I KNOW right away when I hear that price that someone is selling
Miracle or has believed someone who sells Miracle. Don't ask me
to have good feelings about those who lie about my profession for
their own reasons.
John Yeung
> People in this thread have been talking the $40 per hour nonsense.
> I KNOW right away when I hear that price that someone is selling
> Miracle or has believed someone who sells Miracle. Don't ask me
> to have good feelings about those who lie about my profession for
> their own reasons.
I have been a long-time piano student, and in general I am skeptical about
the Miracle system myself, and am always careful not to overstate its
abilities.
However, this last paragraph you wrote was utterly uncalled for. $40 per
hour is by no means nonsense. In expensive parts of the country, $40 is
actually quite standard. Because I believe this is a fair price in my part
of the country, do you conclude that I have sold Miracle or was won over by
someone who does?
Let me tell you, Mr. Bostow, that I studied piano for 14 years exclusively
with human teachers, some of which did, in fact, charge $40 an hour. I've
never sold the Miracle system, nor have even bothered to LISTEN to any of
its ads. Why? Because it so happens that my instruction has been excellent,
utterly top-notch. I got what I paid for, which was premium instruction from
premium teachers with premium results. Tell me what's so nonsensical about
that.
If you believe I am lying about your noble profession, Mr. Bostow, I would be
happy to give you the phone numbers of excellent teachers who charge $40 (or
more) per hour.
John
Timothy Scott
>
> Normal music learning involves markup for frequent mistakes, i.e,
>when you keep forgetting the F# from the key signature, you write
>it in, you also pencil in counts, fingerings, mark spots that need
>extra prcatice and circle or highlite areas of frequent mistakes
>to call attention to them.
As far as I'm aware, the Suzuki method for learning piano places little if
any importance on "markup" of music - are you suggesting that there
is only one way to learn?
>
I would like to repeat my suggestion of a couple of days ago - go and
give it a hands on trial. Forget what the brochure says: let's face it,
most advertising hype is prone to gross exaggeration.
In my experience, there are very
few pieces of Music software/hardware that can't in some way or another
be used to motivated students. Better to be totally aware of the potential
(or lack of it) of all the available systems rather than discount them
out of hand.
Nhat-Viet Phi
: Don't knock it until you've at least tried it.
Ahem! I think it could be somewhat difficult for a piano professional
like Wayne or me to try this Miracle keyboard tutor and not suffer from a
little physical and psychological bias, if you know what I mean.
And although your defense of this system points out the lack of
unreasonable claims in the advertising and documentation, I think the
name "Miracle" itself _does_ loudly broadcast some sort of exaggeration.
test
>software goes for less than twice that (I paid $161, total, at EggHead).
>
> Very recently, or at least it seems so, Miracle for the Mac with keyboard
>was selling for $350+. I know my negative comments were based on something
>far less than a 50% reduction, and EggHead is no fly-by-night.
Miracle is available for many different platforms, if I remember correctly.
Is any platform better than the others. (Mac, PC, Nintendo????)
Wayne Bostow
Tim Scott, Director of Music, The Armidale School, Australia says:
>Better to be totally aware of the potential
(or lack of it) of all the available systems rather than discount them
out of hand.
...and who dismissed it out of hand? Why don't you tell us what you
like about it instead of taking personal jibes.
FACT:
Miracle advertising takes direct aim at piano teachers.
Miracle advertising lies about the cost of traditional lessons.
I never comment on anything I know nothing about.
Can you tell us how you use it at the Armidale School and by the way
what is that? Are students using Miracle under supervision? Have you ever
met or heard of a child learning anything significant from Miracle on
their own?
>Forget what the brochure says: let's face it,
most advertising hype is prone to gross exaggeration.
Advertising is the means a company presents themselves to the public.
If they lie in their advertising why whould I expect the product itself,
the service under the warranty or any other matters, to be legitimate?
Norman Bucknor
>Norman Bucknor (nbuc...@rpwmadhu.gmr.com) wrote:
>
>: Don't knock it until you've at least tried it.
>
>Ahem! I think it could be somewhat difficult for a piano professional
>like Wayne or me to try this Miracle keyboard tutor and not suffer from a
>little physical and psychological bias, if you know what I mean.
>
Not necessarily. Simply evaluate the product to see if it does what is
claimed for it. Is the methodology reasonable for accomplishing the
stated claims, etc. As a pro, you can always say, "well, I wouldn't do it
that way" but it does (or does not) do x,y & z things.
>And although your defense of this system points out the lack of
>unreasonable claims in the advertising and documentation, I think the
>name "Miracle" itself _does_ loudly broadcast some sort of exaggeration.
>
Only if one is prepared to jump to some sort of conclusion about *what* is
promised. I think taking the product name to task is a bit of a stretch. Do
you think the Sharp Wizard is like having your own personal little Merlin?
>
>Nhat-Viet Phi
>nhat...@nucleus.com
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
Norman Bucknor
Wayne Bostow
A comment was made about the Suzuki method not needing fingerings or
other markings on paper.
Pinning down what Suzuki is, involves considerable difficulty. As I
understand the Japanese original, it involves starting with four year
olds who go for 1 1/2 hours per day, six days per week, in a small class
under constant supervision. The teaching technique makes extensive use
of ear learning and repetition as well as peer pressure. Corrections
to mistakes are made immediately by the teacher. Printed music might
not even be used at all for the first year or longer. It's about as
far from Miracle as one could imagine.
Yair Zadik
> The Miracle is not a panacea but I think it does accomplish what it claims.
> You won't be able to play a Chopin Etude after you've completed the course
> but you will be able to play a decent-sounding "Silent Night" arrangement.
> Don't knock it until you've at least tried it.
Has anyone compared the Miracle to some of its (non-human) competition?
I saw a positive review of Practica Musica in MacUser (or MacWorld, I
can't remember which one) but it failed to mention what difficulty
levels and what subjects were covered in enough detail. Anybody out
there own a copy and like it? Or hate it? Any other music teaching
programs out there that someone has tried?
How many of these things are really just for kids or don't go
much beyond the beginning levels.
I'm mainly interested in things available for the Mac, but I'd
imagine other people might want to know about Windows apps.
Yair
Shihchao Lin
intervals to full complex 13th chords.. also does chord progressions too
Robert L. Sutton
checkout Musicware PIANO. For Windows. Musicware just went up on the WWW at
http://www.halcyon.com/musicware/
A demo is available there too.
Or, call their 800 number, 1-800-99-PIANO (I think).
hope this helps,
rob
>Yair
--
Robert L. Sutton -----------------------------------------------------------
bl...@halcyon.com, CIS 73122,3137
n911...@henson.cc.wwu.edu I have nothing to say
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chung-Pang Lai
What is the minimum set up to connect the two devices?
I heard of MIDI PRO or something like that, but that only
takes care of the connection. What software do I need to
record or play back music in MIDI format?
sigf...@gmail.com
> Is the Miracle piano tutor any good? It's about $200 including a
> keyboard. What ages is it suitable for? Any good for preschoolers?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashwin.
I love Miracle Piano. We use it in combination with once a week lessons. Getting real time feedback on playing a song as well as logging your progress has been fantastic. Most of those bad mouthing Miracle Piano have never spent any time using it. I highly recommend the software. I do agree that getting a better keyboard is worth it if you a serious about learning to play the piano. We are very happy with out Kawai CE-220.
J.B. Wood
that old? Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_1...@hotmail.com
swee...@gmail.com
> Is the Miracle piano tutor any good? It's about $200 including a
> keyboard. What ages is it suitable for? Any good for preschoolers?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashwin.
Below are best sites, resources to learn piano online in his humble opinion.
BEST 3 FREE AND PAID PIANO COURSES ONLINE:
=>1. LearnPianoIn30Days
Link: http://1monthpiano.com
LearnPianoIn30Days is a 30-day online piano lessons program instructed by singer and songwriter, Rachel James, who has got many years of piano playing on the scene, club around the world. She wants to share her experience as well as her piano playing skills for anyone who has the passion of piano.
Details:
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+ Online learning method: monthly membership site.
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For more details, pls click here: LearnPianoIn30Days online course
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Details:
Rated: 4.6 by 16,000+ students
+ 138,203 students enrolled
+ Total time: 10 hours on-demand video
Here are detail: PianoForAll online course on Udemy
=>3. Free course on YouTube: Andrew Furmanczyk channel
This is a series of lessons that teach you how to play piano for yourself RIGHT from the VERY beginner all the way to the late intermediate/ early advanced stage of piano. These lessons have been RESHOT and these are the new lessons.
Here are the playlist: Learn How To Play Piano (NEW) - YouTube
=>AND BELOW ARE TOP 13 PIANO BOOKS ON AMAZON:
Adult All-In-1 Course: Level 1
2) Alfred’s Basic Piano Course for Adults
3) Piano Scales, Lessons with Elements of Basic Music Theory
4) Adult Piano Adventures All-in-One Piano Course Book 1
5) Modern Course for the Piano
6) John Thompson’s Easiest Piano Course
7) Alfred’s Self-Teaching Adult Piano Course
8) Primer Level – Lesson Book: Piano Adventures
9) Level 1 – Lesson Book: Piano Adventures
10) KP1B – Bastien Piano for Adults, 1 Book Only: A Beginning Course
11) Piano and Keyboard All-in-One for Dummies
12) Suzuki Piano School New International Edition Piano Book and CD, Volume 1
13) Piano Book for Adult Beginners