fake book fills
tyste...@aol.com
I have a question to ask about playing fills in between the breaks of
the vocal melody. How often should one provide melodic movement in
the form of fills in between these spaces as opposed to just vamping
the chords?
The reason why I ask is because I've been playing a lot from fake books
lately, in particular I've been playing a lot of songs from my Beatles
Fake Book. I think I've been approaching this wrong, because every
time there is a breaks in the vocal melody, in those spaces where
there is no singing I fill in the space by playing the chord tones
arpeggiated to make it sound a little melodic. I'm always trying to
fit this in if I have enough space. I'm just wondering if I'm just
overkilling this or if this is a bad approach...especially considering
that the rest of the accompaniment directly under the vocal weren't
lines but chords in rock style. I had thought, "OK, I'm improving a
little on the original version", but I have a feeling I'm probably
doing the opposite.
I went back and checked out some transcriptions for a lot of these
songs, let it be and hey jude, and etc, and something I have noticed is
that it seemed that McCartney really didn't do much of anything in
between those spaces in terms of playing little right hand fills where
he arpeggiated the chord tones to make little melodies in between. He
just kept vamping the chords in rhythm...like had been done when
accompanying the vocalist's line. If there was a little variation in
between the spaces, it was very minor.
I'm just curious what is the appropriate approach to playing fills in
these spaces, especially in rock style.
thank you
Marc Sabatella
> the form of fills in between these spaces as opposed to just vamping
> the chords?
Exactly as often as your favorite pianists do. Seriously, this is
pretty much a question of personal style. If you like how little the
pianists on the Beatles recordings (not always McCartney, of course)
fill, then go for that. If you hear people filling more and like that,
then go for that.
> in those spaces where
> there is no singing I fill in the space by playing the chord tones
> arpeggiated to make it sound a little melodic.
"A little melodic", indeed. But if you're going to fill the space,
better to make it *really* melodic. That means not just arpeggiating
the chord, but coming up with a countermelody that fits the chord.
---------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Music, art, & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
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Jonathan ;o}
<tyste...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163126716.8...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I was playing in this style once at a hotel dinner, background during a formal
meal, and the toastmaster came past me. As he went by he muttered "...Too many
notes...", but with a semi-smile on his face, which actually told me he was
serious.
I didn't take it too seriously though, mostly because it's one person's opinion.
But it made me consider what I was doing from the listener's point of view and
led to me varying my playing technique a bit more. Sometimes I fill out,
sometimes I leave space.
I think that playing in a band environment or listening to original versions a
lot trains the ear to expect a lot going on throughout a tune/song so when
playing alone it's natural to try and replace the other instruments. My left
hand doubles for bass and drums as well as piano while the right hand is melody,
guitar, strings and brass, and piano.
There's no doubt in my mind that being able to play runs and fills with
dexterity places you in the minds of an audience as a skilled player, but once
you've established that, you can afford to pull back.
My 'emptiest' tune? More Than This by Extreme, a song which has just an acoustic
guitar backing the voices. It's fun to try and recreate the feel of the original
on a different instrument.
This week I managed to get away from my trusty P90 and played a Weber grand in a
restaurant. Sweet, but not as good a sound as I'd like. It's tuned well but
needs a technician to tweak other things. It must have sounded OK though as a
call came through today to fit in 6 gigs between now and New Year, plus one a
week (midweek) after New Year.
I wish there'd been a forum like this when I was learning my skills 30-something
years ago. I'd have been asking all the same questions as Ty. I did speak to
several players at the time but they all seemed to want to protect their styles
and not pass them on to future competition, but while giving the impression of
helping. Can't say I blame them.
Jonathan ;o}
Alvin Cheung
news:116316202...@damia.uk.clara.net:
>
> <tyste...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1163126716.8...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I have a question to ask about playing fills in between the breaks of
>> the vocal melody. How often should one provide melodic movement in
>> the form of fills in between these spaces as opposed to just vamping
>> the chords?
>>
>> The reason why I ask is because I've been playing a lot from fake books
>> lately, in particular I've been playing a lot of songs from my Beatles
>> Fake Book. I think I've been approaching this wrong, because every
>> time there is a breaks in the vocal melody, in those spaces where
>> there is no singing I fill in the space by playing the chord tones
>> arpeggiated to make it sound a little melodic. I'm always trying to
>> fit this in if I have enough space. I'm just wondering if I'm just
>> overkilling this or if this is a bad approach...especially considering
>> that the rest of the accompaniment directly under the vocal weren't
>> lines but chords in rock style. I had thought, "OK, I'm improving a
>> little on the original version", but I have a feeling I'm probably
>> doing the opposite.
>>
>> I went back and checked out some transcriptions for a lot of these
>> songs, let it be and hey jude, and etc, and something I have noticed is
> I was playing in this style once at a hotel dinner, background during a
> formal meal, and the toastmaster came past me. As he went by he muttered
> "...Too many notes...", but with a semi-smile on his face, which
> actually told me he was serious.
What a disrespectful asshole. "Too much constipation" would have been my
reply.
> My 'emptiest' tune? More Than This by Extreme, a song which has just an
> acoustic guitar backing the voices. It's fun to try and recreate the
> feel of the original on a different instrument.
Do you mean "More Than Words" from the 1990 Pornograffiti album?
(off-topic)
Trying to recreate any kind of guitar work on any kind of keyboard
instrument has been an exercise in frustration for me. Whether just
acoustic strumming, muted power chording or wailing solos, I couldn't help
feeling extremely corny. And this included work on a Kurzweil K2500X, which
has a two-foot ribbon touch controller designed for wild bends and effects.
I think that's the main reason I started taking guitar lessons... recurring
Satriani fantasies and Vai nightmares. ;-)
> I wish there'd been a forum like this when I was learning my skills
> 30-something years ago. I'd have been asking all the same questions as
> Ty. I did speak to several players at the time but they all seemed to
> want to protect their styles and not pass them on to future competition,
> but while giving the impression of helping. Can't say I blame them.
Hehe, 'tis just real life. Kinda hits you in the nuts sometimes.
Alan Jones
> "Jonathan ;o}" <j...@NOSPAMjonsmusic.co.uk> wrote in
> news:116316202...@damia.uk.clara.net:
>
>>
>> <tyste...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1163126716.8...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have a question to ask about playing fills in between the breaks
>>> of the vocal melody. How often should one provide melodic
>>> movement in the form of fills in between these spaces as opposed to
>>> just vamping the chords?
>> I was playing in this style once at a hotel dinner, background
>> during a formal meal, and the toastmaster came past me. As he went
>> by he muttered "...Too many notes...", but with a semi-smile on his
>> face, which actually told me he was serious.
>
> What a disrespectful asshole. "Too much constipation" would have been
> my reply.
[...]
The toastmaster might, just possibly, have been paying you the ultimate
compliment. "Too many notes"was a comment reportedly addressed to Mozart by
the Emperor Joseph II, referring to an opera (some say The Marriage of
Figaro, others Il Seraglio). So you're in the best possible company.
Alan Jones
Jonathan ;o}
"Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GM15h.144780$lT5....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Now you mention it, I seem to remember a reference to Mozart, except the
toastmaster meant that it was a bad thing. And I didn't assign it any real
value. It didn't tell me much about my playing but a lot about the toastmaster,
and how to play when working with him. I'll be with a toastmaster on Saturday
evening but I won't know which one till I get there.
Of course I meant More Than Words, thank you for correcting me, Alvin, it was a
case of my fingers running away with me, partly because I've done both songs
this week. More Than This is an entirely different song by Roxy Music which I
also perform and enjoy equally but wouldn't attempt solely on piano.
Jonathan ;o}
tyste...@aol.com
Thank you everyone for the replies. I think something I really need
to do is look at more transcriptions, especially by rock piano players
like Billy Joel, Elton John, and etc. That might give me a better
indication of some things I should try.
Marc Sabatella
> to do is look at more transcriptions, especially by rock piano players
> like Billy Joel, Elton John, and etc.
Looking can't hurt, but don't underestimate the power of *listening*.
You don't need to know the exact notes they are playing in order to get
a general idea of whether they are playing a melodic fill or what.
M. Rick
especially by rock piano players like Billy Joel, Elton John, and etc. That
might give me a better indication of some things I should try.
I suggest you put down the books and learn from the recordings. Better,
take a few lessons from someone who can play this kind of music.
dunlop212
extremely noticeable when you put yourself in the listener's position.
tyste...@aol.com
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> > How often should one provide melodic movement in
> > the form of fills in between these spaces as opposed to just vamping
> > the chords?
>
> Exactly as often as your favorite pianists do. Seriously, this is
> pretty much a question of personal style. If you like how little the
> pianists on the Beatles recordings (not always McCartney, of course)
> fill, then go for that. If you hear people filling more and like that,
> then go for that.
>
> > in those spaces where
> > there is no singing I fill in the space by playing the chord tones
> > arpeggiated to make it sound a little melodic.
>
> "A little melodic", indeed. But if you're going to fill the space,
> better to make it *really* melodic. That means not just arpeggiating
> the chord, but coming up with a countermelody that fits the chord.
>
Thanks for the response on this, Marc. I decided to revisit this topic
today as I came across a playing situation that made me want to give
the replies here a second look.
A little bit earlier today, I was practicing through some songs in a
beatles fake book, and I practiced one called Maxwell's Silver Hammer,
in the key of D. I've run through it before in the past. . I was
trying to figure out the best approach on how to play the
fills/embellishments in between breaks of the vocal melody where the
E7 chord appears above the measures, and I'm kind of a little stumped
because I don't think the way I'm approaching it is the most natural
way.
Because of the voice leading, I'm playing this chord (E7) as a right
hand voicing of (D-G#-B) with the E note played in the left hand bass.
There's this line in the song that goes:
(E7) But as she's getting ready to go...............a knock (A7) comes
on the door
I usually like to play a little fill or embellishment and to give it
more interest than just stark chording, but I wasn't so sure on how to
do this best, in this circumstance. I was comping the (E7) chord
while singing the words, but was wanting to add an embellishment by
quickly arpeggiating the right hand voicing in between the words "go"
and "a knock" Truth is, I probably should start the arpeggiation as
far back as the word "ready" and roll out the chord from there till I
play the (A7).
But here was my question, and if someone could give me a suggestion on
this, I'd really appreciate it. Because of voicleading and context I'm
choosing to voice the E7 chore in the right hand as (D-G#-B), but not
so sure if arpeggiating up this voicing, with these specific notes,
actually sounds very good in between the break. When adding these
kind of embellishments, which tones should I be concentrating (or
adding) by default on in making it sound good in a case like
this..where there's a short break? Should I forget the fifth and
instead add the the "E" to the right hand voicing, such as D-E-G#.....
should I work to add tones like the 2nd and 6th in these cases where I
want to add a fill or embellishment in between something of this kind?
thanks
Marc Sabatella
> this, I'd really appreciate it. Because of voicleading and context
> I'm
> choosing to voice the E7 chore in the right hand as (D-G#-B), but not
> so sure if arpeggiating up this voicing, with these specific notes,
> actually sounds very good in between the break.
That's far too specific a question to answer without hearing the
complete context - every note you played the previous and next couple of
measures, and even then, any answer would be subjective. All I can do
is answer more generally: melodic fills hould first and foremost be
*melodic*. If arpeggiating those notes is a good melodic to your ears,
then by all means, do it. But keep in mind that most melodies are not
arpeggios - they usually have a scalar component to them. Look at some
real melodies you like and see how they fit the chords they go over.
That should give you sme ideas as to how to create your own melodies.
tyste...@aol.com
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> > But here was my question, and if someone could give me a suggestion on
> > this, I'd really appreciate it. Because of voicleading and context
> > I'm
> > choosing to voice the E7 chore in the right hand as (D-G#-B), but not
> > so sure if arpeggiating up this voicing, with these specific notes,
> > actually sounds very good in between the break.
>
> That's far too specific a question to answer without hearing the
> complete context - every note you played the previous and next couple of
> measures, and even then, any answer would be subjective. All I can do
> is answer more generally: melodic fills hould first and foremost be
> *melodic*. If arpeggiating those notes is a good melodic to your ears,
> then by all means, do it. But keep in mind that most melodies are not
> arpeggios - they usually have a scalar component to them. Look at some
> real melodies you like and see how they fit the chords they go over.
> That should give you sme ideas as to how to create your own melodies.
Hi Marc,
Thanks for your reply. I thought that most played arpeggios or broken
up chords as fills between as opposed to scalar melodies (unless if
it's the main riff), but perhaps this is more true in rock than it is
in jazz....
When I'm playing from the chord charts in the fake books, a lot of
times the fills I choose to play are just arpeggiations of the chord
played in a way (and not always in order) that sounds as melodic as
possible (sometimes with an added tone in) but I really don't think too
much about how I'm playing it ---I just do it. But with the E7 chord
voicing I mentioned in my other post, something didn't quite sound
right...
But I was wondering, how much thought does one put into how the fills
sound in cases where it is not the main riff of the song ? I thought
just playing it as a broken chord would be the easiest and most simple
way to do it from a fake book as opposed to composing scalar melodies.
Marc Sabatella
> I thought that most played arpeggios or broken
> up chords as fills between as opposed to scalar melodies (unless if
> it's the main riff), but perhaps this is more true in rock than it is
> in jazz....
I can't give any statistics to back this up. All I can do is suggest
you *really* listen to some recordings, and figure out for yourself to
what extent this is true.
> But I was wondering, how much thought does one put into how the fills
> sound in cases where it is not the main riff of the song ?
Enough to construct a good-sounding melody. If you aren't going to put
that much thought into it, better not to play it.
tyste...@aol.com
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> <tyste...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I thought that most played arpeggios or broken
> > up chords as fills between as opposed to scalar melodies (unless if
> > it's the main riff), but perhaps this is more true in rock than it is
> > in jazz....
>
> I can't give any statistics to back this up. All I can do is suggest
> you *really* listen to some recordings, and figure out for yourself to
> what extent this is true.
>
> > But I was wondering, how much thought does one put into how the fills
> > sound in cases where it is not the main riff of the song ?
>
> Enough to construct a good-sounding melody. If you aren't going to put
> that much thought into it, better not to play it.
Hi Marc,
Thanks for your reply. I have listened to a lot of recordings, rock
and pop music in particular, and I have noticed often that in between
brief pauses of the vocal melody a lot of times the players use "licks"
that are just scale fragments or arpeggiations of the chord as
embellishment. That was what I was mainly referring to, but I
understand in if the pause lasts more than a couple of measures, the
players will try to round it out with a good riff or melody. I was
just listening to some grateful dead songs a couple of hours ago where
I hear a lot of that.
In the song I pointed out as an example, the beatles Maxwell's Silver
Hammer, I think the pause that I wanted to "fill in" with piano between
the lines "but as she's ready to go (brief pause) a knock comes at the
door" is brief and could get by with a broken chord or other "lick"
thrown in there for added interest. That was really what I was asking
about...those very brief pauses between the vocals...not the extended
ones that stretch over a couple of measures. But I realize that one
doesn't want to be too redundant in how they fill such spaces while
playing from a fake book...doing it the exact same way every time would
probably bore a lot of people.
Greg Guarino
>In the song I pointed out as an example, the beatles Maxwell's Silver
>Hammer, I think the pause that I wanted to "fill in" with piano between
>the lines "but as she's ready to go (brief pause) a knock comes at the
>door" is brief and could get by with a broken chord or other "lick"
>thrown in there for added interest. That was really what I was asking
>about...those very brief pauses between the vocals...not the extended
>ones that stretch over a couple of measures. But I realize that one
>doesn't want to be too redundant in how they fill such spaces while
>playing from a fake book...doing it the exact same way every time would
>probably bore a lot of people.
Restricting yourself to chord tones is too limiting. This is not to
say that a more experienced player, with lots of different "colors" on
his palette, might not use that idea sometimes. It just wouldn't be
all the time. In fact, for perhaps the ultimate in simplicity I can
imagine playing a couple of accents just on the E in octaves in that
spot. (on "One-and", "Three" and "Three-and", using swing eighths, of
course)
Moreover, I don't think that the duration of the phrase dictates what
notes you're allowed to use. I get the impression from what you have
written that you think using "scale" tones might be too fancy for such
a brief pause in the vocal line. I agree that there is such a thing as
"too much" (I'm imagining some Al DiMeola 32nd notes right now -
ouch), but I think that has more to do with the number of notes than
which ones you use.
Now for my favorite device: The Concrete Example.
Here's a very simple, perhaps even cliche, fill you can use. Try
playing the following descending 6ths on quarter notes, starting on
the beat of "1" that is in the middle of the first syllable of the
word "Ready":
G# F# E D C#
B A G# F# A
The final pair of notes (C# and A) should land on beat 1 of the next
measure, where the chord will conveniently be A Major. Practice that a
few times. Once it feels natural, read the next paragraph.
Now let's get really radical. :)
Instead of playing the first pair of notes simultaneously, play the B
on 1 and the G# on "1 and". Did you try it? Try it!
Now let's change it a little more to round out a very very familiar
lick. Play it the way you did in the second example, except add a Bb
before the B, on "four-and" of the previous measure. If there's a
disciplinarian teacher ready to rap your knuckles with a wooden ruler
you can finger those three notes 2 - 1 - 5, but I'm sure I'd usually
slide my thumb from the Bb to the B.
One more variatiion that works just as well:
E D C# B A
G# F# E D C#
...and you can in the same fashion as above play the first pair of
notes separately and put in a G before the G#. No sliding on that one.
Scales in 6ths like the ones above are one very common sort of fill.
You might want to practice it in different keys, or better yet,
different SONGS in different keys.
Greg Guarino
Marc Sabatella
> Hammer, I think the pause that I wanted to "fill in" with piano
> between
> the lines "but as she's ready to go (brief pause) a knock comes at the
> door" is brief
That's an understatement. It's barely even a pause. I guess I was
talking mostly about somewhat longer breaks. In a pace as short as the
above, a single block chord is all I'd normally consider.
> not the extended
> ones that stretch over a couple of measures.
I wasn't necessarily talking about ones *that* long, either. 3-6
*beats* is pretty common, too.
tyste...@aol.com
learned one thing...there are many possibilities!
Greg Guarino
>I certainly
>learned one thing...there are many possibilities!
There are more than you can imagine and, even 40 years into my musical
journey, plenty more for me to learn as well.
Greg Guarino