Boston Grand Piano Opinions?
Matthias Schneider
at the Frankfurt Music Fair this spring I had the opportunity to play
on a lot of different pianos and grands.
I came to the conclusion that if I would buy a piano myself my choice would
fall on a Boston grand. The Boston grands had the most exceptional sound of
all the grands I tested.
So I can only recommend looking for a Boston grand.
Matthias Schneider, Stuttgart, Germany.
Christopher Anderson
I understand that Boston pianos (new) are built and designed by Steinway
and Sons. (at least that is what they say under the hood) Obviously these
are going for around 16G (5'10") as opposed to the Stein(5'10") Grand
which I have seen for around 27G. Anyone have an opinion about these
pianos? Looking for a new grand for home in the 6-7 foot range for a
fairly large room. 40'X18' with 15' ceilings. Carpeted floor with lots of
woodwork in the room and sparse furniture. (couch and loveseat-a couple of
tables etc.) I am looking at around 15G to spend. please, no more. Any
Ideas??
Christopher Anderson
Northwestern University
Graduate Music Program
Gil G Silberman
Christopher Anderson <Cond...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>I understand that Boston pianos (new) are built and designed by Steinway
>and Sons.
[. . .]
>I am looking at around 15G to spend. please, no more. Any
>Ideas??
I see I get first crack at this question, which is unfortunate because
I know far less than all the technicians and dealers around here. And
we really should have a Boston FAQ, considering all the posts we get
about this one.
The 5'10" Boston I heard a couple years ago was a fabulous piano and
I would take it hands down over contemporary Baldwins, Yamahas, etc.
It relatively bright for a new piano (which means it would do well
with all your carpeting), yet it had a hint of the subtlety and
character of tone that Steinways seem to have and most other new
pianos don't. Most importantly, the action was very responsive
and predictable in the pianisimo range. This means it is a "player's"
piano -- if you are going to be serious about the music, I think
it is far better to get a smaller piano that has a good action than
a larger piano, which is more impressive and sounds better, but will
not let you grow as much as a musician. That is why, when facing
your decision, I ended up buying a used Steinway S at about the
same price. True, the sound is only marginal in the lower ranges
(as compared, say, with a 7'), but the music I make on a Renner
action is better music.
That brings up a couple of other possibilities. You can't afford
a new Steinway, even an S, so that is right out. There don't
seem to be many good used S's out there, but I bet you could find
a decent, fairly well restored vintage M at slightly above your
price range -- and this is a better piano anyway. There are
some really nice 1940's and 1950's Baldwins out there for
$15,000, and a number of other piano makers made really nice
grands before WWII. For some reason, though, you don't see them
for sale all that often, and nobody bothers keeping them well-
maintained as they do with Steinways. I wonder why that is.
Finally, I don't know if it is just me, but there are some
really good big Kawaii grands from the mid and late 1970's.
They are in the minority, though. Most Yamahas and Kawais
seem to be decent, but middling, pianos. Occasionally
they put out a really good one by accident. Once again, I have
no idea why that is. All I am going on is my subjective experience
when trying them out.
Getting back to Boston, it seems like a very good piano, and if
I were buying a new piano in the $15,000 range I would probably
choose Boston. I will leave it up to the professionals to
comment on the quality of construction, longevity, maintenance,
design, etc.
Glenn Grafton
Cond...@nwu.edu (Christopher Anderson) wrote:
> I understand that Boston pianos (new) are built and designed by Steinway
> and Sons. (at least that is what they say under the hood) Obviously these
> are going for around 16G (5'10") as opposed to the Stein(5'10") Grand
> which I have seen for around 27G. Anyone have an opinion about these
> pianos? Looking for a new grand for home in the 6-7 foot range for a
> fairly large room. 40'X18' with 15' ceilings. Carpeted floor with lots of
> woodwork in the room and sparse furniture. (couch and loveseat-a couple of
> tables etc.) I am looking at around 15G to spend. please, no more. Any
> Ideas??
Correction: Boston Pianos are actually made by Kawaii in Hamatsu Japan.
Steinway did some design work on the piano line. The construction of the
piano looks Kawaii, not Steinway. Evidently the logic is that there are
many people who might look at a Steinway but be put off with the price. By
having Kawaii build the Boston line the Steinway dealer gets a shot at
selling a piano to the customer who would normally go down the road to the
Yamaha or Kawaii dealer.
They are not bad pianos, but they are not Steinways. If I were in your
shoes I would take a look at the new Yamaha pianos. You won't have the
"Steinway aura" attatched to it...if that's what you're after but you will
be getting an excellent piano.
Another point is that you'll pay a higher mark-up for a Boston piano
because Steinway maintains a limitied distribution policy among their
dealers--there are no competing dealers in the same area.
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
1-800-272-5980
vanden...@accessone.com
in the earlier postings.
1. The Boston is built in the Kawai plant...out of Kawai't total manufacturing
capacity of 660,000 piano's annually, Boston will comprise about 5,000. The
action is similar (not identical) to the Steinway, and it also has an accelerated
action which improves the touch and responsiveness significantly.
2. Whilst the Boston might be made in the same factory, the materials used are
to Steinway's spec's (not Kawai's). For instance:
- the Steinway and Boston both use a low tension scale, this differs
from the Kawai and Yamaha (they use a high tension scale) in that
it allows use of a thinner soundboard made of solid Sitka Spruce..
Without the high tension scale, the soundboard is likely to last longer.
This is clearly the case with the Steinway, and history will back it up,
but it is clearly premature to guess whether a Boston will last as long
as a Steinway....I would bet though it will outlast many other grands
- The Steinway and the Boston both stay away from flat soundboards.
The Steinway has a 'cupped' (they call it diaphragmatic) design and
the Boston has a 'tapered' soundboard. The taper runs toward the
bass bridge and is there to increase the tone. I might be wrong, but
I don't think that any other manufacturer uses either a tapered or
cupped soundboard anymore.
- The soundboard (and the reason I keep on the soundboard is that
if you compromise here, no matter what else you do nothing will offset
the compromise) is also larger in the Boston than it is in other grands,
that's why you will see a different sizing in them, than in the Yamaha
or Kawai. For example, the soundboard on a Boston 5'4" Grand is
the same in square inches as a 5'8" 'standard' grand. Ditto for the
5'10" Boston (comparable to a 6'2" standard grand)
3. The bottom line though is what do you hear when you play the Boston? Have you
played on a Steinway? On a Yamaha grand? Which gives the sound you feel most
comfortable with?
I'll leave you with a quote from The Wall Street Journal (I think, the reference is missing on the
photocopy but the type and style look WSJish) The article is titled "On Yamaha's Assembly Line"
...But piano's are the company's pride. President Genichi Kawakami has a 1905 Steinway, bought
from Harrod's in London at his home and one day he wants to emulate the top western piano makers.
We are chasing hard, we want to catch up to Steinway, said one company manager. Oh, but its
unfair to compare the two, like comparing Rolls Royce with Toyota's, said another.
Boston might not be Rolls Royce, but it looks a lot more like a Bentley, than it does a Toyota.
Sorry, but one last caveat....I work for Sherman Clay Piano's...we carry Steinway's, Boston's, Kohler Campbell,
Roland (digital) and have on the floor now over 10 Yamaha's GP's and Kawai's over 5'8"...find yourself a dealer
like that where you can play and compare.
Loren D. VandenBerghe
vanden...@accessone.com
Robert Snyder
writes:
>
---snip
>
>Correction: Boston Pianos are actually made by Kawaii in Hamatsu Japan.
>Steinway did some design work on the piano line.
Correction: Steinway did *all* the design work on the piano line. In fact, the
line was designed *before* Kawai was identified as the manufacturer.
>The construction of the
>piano looks Kawaii, not Steinway.
Correction: the Steinway "family resemblance" is all over the Boston grand.
>Evidently the logic is that there are
>many people who might look at a Steinway but be put off with the price.
Steinway is certainly not for everybody. However, the Boston was not created for
the "I want a Steinway but I don't want to spend that much money" customer; it
was created for that person who is in the high end of the mid priced piano
market, with the goal of offering a significantly higher level of performance for
a little extra purchase price.
>By having Kawaii build the Boston line the Steinway dealer gets a shot at
>selling a piano to the customer who would normally go down the road to the
>Yamaha or Kawaii dealer.
The fact that the Boston is manufactured in the Kawai facility has nothing to do
with the dealer "getting a shot at selling" the piano.. It's the fact that the
customer has a choice.
>
>They are not bad pianos, but they are not Steinways.
Of course they're not Steinways. They were never intended to be.
>If I were in your
>shoes I would take a look at the new Yamaha pianos.
Hmmmmmm..... spoken with the predictability and true objectivity of a Yamaha
dealer.
>You won't have the
>"Steinway aura" attatched to it...
That's for sure....
>if that's what you're after but you will be getting an excellent piano.
>
Depending on the model, I agree. One interesting note (no pun): the most
successful Boston retailer in the world is in ........ Japan.
>Another point is that you'll pay a higher mark-up for a Boston piano
>because Steinway maintains a limitied distribution policy among their
>dealers--there are no competing dealers in the same area.
>
Wrong again. The typical retail pricing of Boston pianos reflects no
higher of a profit margin than that of most, if not all other brands.
The actual selling price, of course, is up to the dealer.
Bob Snyder
Cecil Ramirez
>Correction: Boston Pianos are actually made by Kawaii in Hamatsu Japan.
>Steinway did some design work on the piano line. The construction of the
>piano looks Kawaii, not Steinway. Evidently the logic is that there are
>many people who might look at a Steinway but be put off with the price.
Actually, all Boston pianos are built to Steinway specs. Kawai had
nothing to do with the design characteristics of the piano. Also, the
Type II Boston pianos are currently made in North Carolina.
>By having Kawaii build the Boston line the Steinway dealer gets a shot at
>selling a piano to the customer who would normally go down the road to the
>Yamaha or Kawaii dealer.
Huh? Are you saying that Kawai builds Bostons for Steinway dealers to
compete with Kawai dealers?
>They are not bad pianos, but they are not Steinways. If I were in your
>shoes I would take a look at the new Yamaha pianos. You won't have the
>"Steinway aura" attatched to it...if that's what you're after but you will
>be getting an excellent piano.
Are you referring to the new "S" series Yamaha pianos? They are
really nice pianos, but, in my part of the USA, they cost as much as
the same sized Steinway...
>Another point is that you'll pay a higher mark-up for a Boston piano
>because Steinway maintains a limitied distribution policy among their
>dealers--there are no competing dealers in the same area.
When I worked for a Yamaha dealer, Yamaha also would not grant dealer
agreements to two retailers in the same area - this is the limited
distribution policy you wrote about. Is there a competing Yamaha
dealer in your area? If so, does it affect your mark-up?
A note to the original author of this thread, Chris Anderson: you
should be able to find the right sized Boston you want in the price
range you want. Your intended music room sounds nice.
========================================
=== Cecil Ramirez
=== Sacramento, CA, USA
========================================
=== cram...@auntie.ip.portal.com
=== aun...@ix.netcom.com
=== SCSI...@aol.com
========================================
Michael Scott
: >By having Kawaii build the Boston line the Steinway dealer gets a shot at
: >selling a piano to the customer who would normally go down the road to the
: >Yamaha or Kawaii dealer.
: Huh? Are you saying that Kawai builds Bostons for Steinway dealers to
: compete with Kawai dealers?
Why does this surprise you? Out-sourcing from competing manufacturers is
a very common business strategy. Amanna (sp?) builds refrigerators for Sears,
Mazda builds chassis/engine/drive-trains for Ford, etc., etc., etc.
The out-source generally charges enough for the things they manufacture for
competitors that it is very difficult for them to be resold for a price which
competes with their own equivalent products. And in any case, if the competi-
tor makes a sale, the out-source makes a sale. Win-win.
-- Mike
Gil G Silberman
Cecil Ramirez <cram...@auntie.ip.portal.com> wrote:
>Are you referring to the new "S" series Yamaha pianos? They are
>really nice pianos, but, in my part of the USA, they cost as much as
>the same sized Steinway...
Wow. I had forgotten all about those. A few months ago I played
three of them, side-by-side. As I recall they were about $45,000 each.
They were surprisingly uneven, given Yamaha's
typical level of uniformity -- two were so-so, but one was
a standout, a really excellent piano, in the same league as an average
Steinway. I would still hesitate to buy a Yamaha over a Steinway
at a similar price, though -- there are concerns about longevity,
whether the piano will age well, upkeep, resale value, etc. My (uninformed)
impression was that Yamaha didn't really mean to sell a lot of these
at the consumer level, that this had to do more with institutional
and concert uses and with having a flagship line so they could show
the world they could build first-rate pianos.
I'm curious to know what the technician/professional musician people
think of these.
v mrykalo rpt
> - the Steinway and Boston both use a low tension scale, this differs
> from the Kawai and Yamaha (they use a high tension scale) in that
> it allows use of a thinner soundboard made of solid Sitka Spruce..
> Without the high tension scale, the soundboard is likely to last
That is patently false! The fact is, the downbearing that the strings exert
upon the soundboard has little if anything to do with the string tension. It
has to do with the deflection of the strings as they cross the bridges which
are glued to the soundboard. The soundboard will not fail sooner because of a
higher tensioned scale.
> - The Steinway and the Boston both stay away from flat soundboards.
So does every other manufacturer.
> The Steinway has a 'cupped' (they call it diaphragmatic) design and
> the Boston has a 'tapered' soundboard. The taper runs toward the
> bass bridge and is there to increase the tone. I might be wrong, but
> I don't think that any other manufacturer uses either a tapered or
> cupped soundboard anymore.
All manufacturers taper their boards. All manufacturers "cup" their boards.
It is called crown.
>3. The bottom line though is what do you hear when you play the Boston?
Have you>played on a Steinway? On a Yamaha grand? Which gives the
sound you feel most>comfortable with?
There you go. Practical advice. Only be sure that you play a slew of them,
because some may not be in as good a shape as they could be. Dealers are
notorious for showing instruments that are not in good shape, and selling off
of them.
vince mrykalo rpt
sy...@hk.super.net
PMJI.
> >I understand that Boston pianos (new) are built and designed by Steinway
> >and Sons.
FYI, the Boston is manufactured by Kawai according to Steinway's design and specs.
I bought a Boston 132 full-sized upright earlier this year at US$8,500. I was most tempted to
buy a Boston grand (cost about 60% more) and I believed I would have done it had I had
enough space in my living room.
Look up Mr Larry Fine's "The Piano Book" which answers most, if not all, of your questions about
buying a piano.
> I see I get first crack at this question, which is unfortunate because
> I know far less than all the technicians and dealers around here. And
> we really should have a Boston FAQ, considering all the posts we get
> about this one.
Couldn't agree more.
Cheers,
S.Y. Wai
Hong Kong