Kawai vs Petrof (and let's not forget Steinway)

[David.P...@csiro.au]

I'm a Steinway bigot, but can't afford one. I want to buy a grand for
an at-home studio. The choice has boiled down to a Kawai GE-30 or a
Petrof IV, but I'm not happy with either.

Petrof has a bad reputation, but at the two dealers who had them the
tone was rock solid better-than-average for the entire keyboard range
from the bottommost to topmost note. They are all the best regulated
pianos I've ever encountered, even better than some new Steinways. Any
comments on Petrof?

On the other hand, the Kawai GE30GEP I like seems to be one of a kind.
It's being sold by a Steinway dealer and I strongly suspect that it
has been heavily re-voiced to appeal to Steinway fans. That makes me
worry a lot about the durability and maintenance of the voice. I tried
Kawais at a Kawai shop and they all sounded typical Kawai, eg. no
pianissimo. Any comments about Kawai revoicing? PS. A Kawai RX-2 at
the Steinway dealership did not sound as sweet as the GE-30.

Boston I won't touch because although the tone quality of the centre
range is superb, that of the outer octaves is very poor. Yamaha I'm
avoiding because the tone quality where the dampers cease leads to an
unpleasant ringing there. I tried three Becksteins, but all three were
badly in need of tuning (each for a different reason). Any comments on
preferred brands on a budget?

[Aage Johansen]

David.P...@csiro.au wrote:
> I'm a Steinway bigot, but can't afford one. I want to buy a grand for
> an at-home studio. The choice has boiled down to a Kawai GE-30 or a
> Petrof IV, but I'm not happy with either.
>
> Petrof has a bad reputation, but at the two dealers who had them the
> tone was rock solid better-than-average for the entire keyboard range
> from the bottommost to topmost note. They are all the best regulated
> pianos I've ever encountered, even better than some new Steinways. Any
> comments on Petrof?
>

Maybe the bad reputation belongs to some earlier period? I believe that
someone has praised later Petrofs (on this NG). I don't have a Petrof
so I cannot really say much of relevance!

--
age J.

[jrk...@poczta.gazeta.pl]

On Jan 9, 6:11 am, "David.Pater...@csiro.au" <David.Pater...@csiro.au>
wrote:

> I'm a Steinway bigot, but can't afford one. I want to buy a grand for
> an at-home studio. The choice has boiled down to a Kawai GE-30 or a
> Petrof IV, but I'm not happy with either.
>
> Petrof has a bad reputation, but at the two dealers who had them the
> tone was rock solid better-than-average for the entire keyboard range
> from the bottommost to topmost note. They are all the best regulated
> pianos I've ever encountered, even better than some new Steinways. Any
> comments on Petrof?
>

Some years back there were several discussions on this group
concerning Petrofs vs. other grands in the same price range. A strong
opinion then was that Petrof IV was the best value for money compared
with Kawai, Yamaha or Boston. Some people claimed that even compared
with Steinways (note that this was compared to price, not in absolute
terms). I don't know where your opinion of Petrofs comes from, but the
brand made a spectacular comeback in the late 90-ties after the
decades of decay under the communists. I played a concert Petrof grand
last summer in Slovakia, and it was fantastic in every aspect.

You may probably do a google search back to 1998 or so to look up the
old threads.

jrk

[Kneeland's]

If you are not happy with them then they are not right for you. I have the
1998 Petrof 131 and I am very happy with it. You may want to look at
another brand that was very comparable to the petrof and has the same
qualities. The name "Vogel" and it is either Italian or Check made. The
sound out of that was phenomenal , but I couldn't afford the 23-25K price
for the Baby grand piano. I think I have the spelling correct, but please
keep looking because you will take a massive loss to get rid of something
that expensive that you do not like.

<David.P...@csiro.au> wrote in message
news:77c6d5f8-ef30-418d...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...

[David.P...@csiro.au]

Thanks all, the bad Petrof review comes from
http://www.paneris.org/paneris/messageboards/attachments/pol/review_petrof.htm
which says (among other things) that "these pianos were almost
unplayable" and "Several individual piano technicians and tuners were
also consulted regarding the new Petrof pianos, their views were
unanimously uncomplimentary".

I'm glad to hear that's not a unanimous opinion. I'll get someone else
to play the Petrof and Kawai to see what they think before making a
final decision.

[jhp]

On Jan 10, 12:21 pm, "David.Pater...@csiro.au"
<David.Pater...@csiro.au> wrote:
> Thanks all, the bad Petrof review comes fromhttp://www.paneris.org/paneris/messageboards/attachments/pol/review_p...

> which says (among other things) that "these pianos were almost
> unplayable" and "Several individual piano technicians and tuners were
> also consulted regarding the new Petrof pianos, their views were
> unanimously uncomplimentary".
>
> I'm glad to hear that's not a unanimous opinion. I'll get someone else
> to play the Petrof and Kawai to see what they think before making a
> final decision.

This link is very old... very very old... and is outdated. The
information within is baseless. If I am not mistaken, I read it
somewhere in a forum that GIC (PETROF - USA) brought up a legal suit
against them. I don't know what was the result but the site was
abandon after that.

Regards

[Mike A]

Here's a discussion of that review:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/16753.html#000000

<David.P...@csiro.au> wrote in message
news:f239c44f-3af7-49f9...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

[jimz]

Find an old grand, cut out the keyboard and stick
a yamaha cp300 digital stage piano in its place. Keep
the top closed and your friends will never know the difference.
It's built like a tank and never needs tuning.

I've heard rumors several pros that have done
this on stage.

<David.P...@csiro.au> wrote in message
news:77c6d5f8-ef30-418d...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...

[Rich P]

I service a few Petrof pianos and other than one 20+ year old upright
that's troublesome to tune, the two grands are newer (less than 10 yrs old)
and play beautifully and have a really nice sound. I also like the Kawai
RX2. The August Forster is also a very nice piano, I service a few of those
too.

I've serviced and rebuilt many Steinway pianos, from uprights to concert
grands, and I would NEVER even consider one for myself at their cost
(especially the uprights, they truly suck). As a piano professional,
Steinway pianos are your bread and butter around here (NJ). They always
justify the cost of restoration, but for sheer value, they ask way too much
for their product. I'm not saying they're bad pianos, but I don't really
see how they hold the respectability that they do.

I've rebuilt many an old grand that was superior or equal in style, design,
performance and construction than most Steinway pianos I encounter. Yet
somehow, Steinway manages to maintain the hype and fetch the outrageous
prices that they go for. The best thing about a Steinway is that you can
usually sell it for what you paid if you hold it long enough, maybe
sometimes more. But, who's to say what the future holds.

The piano retail business has been slow and we're entering a recession. If
you have the cash to buy a nice piano, it's probably a good time to get a
great deal. Also, there are things that can be done to manipulate the touch
weight of an action and playing with the key weights is the hack method.
Check out this link http://www.stanwoodpiano.com/ and you can see that
there's always a way to get the touch your looking for from any decent grand
piano, all it takes is money.

Rich Pierro
A-Sharp Piano Services
http://www.pianorebuilder.com

[Neil]

On Jan 9, 3:11�am, "David.Pater...@csiro.au" <David.Pater...@csiro.au>
wrote:

A lot has to do with the individual piano, the room acoustics, how you
connect with the piano, your understanding of arm weight, the music
you play, your style, and the technician's ability -- THE PIANO
LESSONS BOOK

Neil Miller
author of
THE PIANO LESSONS
BOOKhttp://www.amazon.com/PIANO-LESSONS-BOOK-students-practicing/dp/1434818535/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198008300&sr=8-2

OR

http://www.createspace.com/3332371

OR

Enter in Google or Amazon searches: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book

[ekwilli...@gmail.com]

I have a 2004 Petrof M125 upright, have owned Kawai grands and uprights, and can tell you the Petrof is superior in quality in every way to Kawai! The wood used to construct the cabinet is miles better, and the soundboard wood is much better also!

Are you a Steinway snob because you can't afford one, or because you playing ability really doesn't merit one?

There are so many good pianos out there that aren't Steinway, Kawai, or Petrof why would you limit yourself to these brands? I certainly wouldn't buy a GE-30 entry level piano with chipboard lid.

On Kawai's I have had problems with unstable soundboards and loose tuning pins in the pinblocks, signs of not enough seasoning at the factory. My Petrof is much more stable tuning wise, and have had no loose tuning pins problems.

Look for a piano from a private owner, and save yourself thousands of dollars!
Don't limit yourself to dealers, look on Craigslist, piano forums, etc.

I bought an immaculate 2004 M125 Petrof upright four years ago for four grand. The dealers wanted $6500 for a 1996 model that needed voicing, regulation, keyboard pin busing easing, as well as tuning!

[kenney...@gmail.com]

[kenney...@gmail.com]

I have a Steinway M (1974) bought new. In the 90's, after saving for years, I bought a Steinway B, which was a huge disappointment. After a year of trying to resolve problems, including a visit to the New York factory, Steinway finally permitted me to return it and refunded the purchase price. I replaced it with a larger Petrof grand (recommended by my technician/tuner/advisor) and have loved it. It has a mellow, rich tone, and medium-heavy touch. All pedals work and feel better than my Steinway. (I do still enjoy the Steinway for its treble sounds, and it holds a tune well.)

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:16:56 PM UTC-4, ekwilli...@gmail.com wrote:

[robert...@gmail.com]

Was considering a Petrof II. Action from top to bottom was just what I was looking for. Tone was as expected. I was ready to purchase when I was informed there was a hairline crack in the outer rim of the sound board. I was also informed that hairline cracks are not uncommon in Petrof. Although not currently effecting the instrument i worry if it will be a future problem. Thoughts? Comments?

[Aage Johansen]

One never knows.
I had an old Ibach grand for 20+ years, and I don't think anyone would
suspect that there was a crack in the sound board.
The crack was there whan I aquired it (by then the instrument was about
60 years old) - the crack could be felt by running a finger on the sound
board.

--
Aage J.

[robert...@gmail.com]

Thanks. This Petrof is 1995. As I know as much about soundboards as I do changing the oil in my car, I am requesting my tech. Converse with the current tech with a site visit to follow. This piano has a limited warranty as it is being sold on consignment. Further info: I live on the coast of Maine with wide swings in humidity. I am willing to have my home humidity controlled. Continued thought and comments welcome. PS: Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Aage Johansen]

I know hardly anything about soundboards, so cannot add much.
Having a tech evaluate the Petrof seems the wise thing to do.
Controlling humidity is maybe even more important in your situation
(with a crack and wide swings in humidity).
Here also, in Norway, indoor humidity can drop quite a bit during winter
- I do try to keep a reasonable level of humidity.

--
Aage J.

[ivo...@yahoo.co.uk]

Why not consider Bosendorfer

[sheryl...@gmail.com]

I was raised and trained on Steinways, and was also a Steinway fan for many years. As music director for Nordstrom - my task was to maintain them in the stores. The newer products are not what the older Steinways were. The company has sold twice (since the 70's) and there have been several lawsuits. You can get a beautiful instrument, or you can get a lemon. The consistency simply isn't what it once was. I had one of them completely torn down and reassembled, with no assistance from Steinway honoring their warranty. The piano honestly sounded like a church-basement old upright.
Coincidentally, I own a Petrof. The earlier ones - prior to the company being purchased by Geneva International - were lovely.....rich, smooth European sound. however, when I DID discern a slight "buzz/vibration" in the mid-range.....Geneva was beyond horrible to deal with. They never communicated with me beyond the sales rep, Alan - who was rude and insulting. Only when I cornered the executives of Geneva at NAMM in Los Angeles did they offer me a new piano.....but only ONE specific piano. When I went to play it, it has so much wrong with it - I couldn't even express it in technical terms. I paid a concert pianist AND the Vice President of the national technicians guild (techs for a number of high level celebrity/professionals) and she deemed the piano "junk" . She noted an entire list of things wrong with that piano. Because they felt they had attempted to offer me a resolution, Geneva was simply done with me. I paid to have my piano issue fixed myself. A warranty is only as good as the individuals that run the company.
With all this said - I used to be prejudice against Yamahas as too bright, stiff action. However, over the years they have corrected this in the better products and I have played 5'3" Yamahas that have gorgeous tone. They simply produce a consistent, quality product and have a reputation for honoring their warranty.
I would stay away from Kawai - although I know schools and universities sometimes accept them in their music depts.....I just cannot get past that sound. A stable, decent quality piano.....but the sound is discernibly Asian and bright. Before purchasing a Kawai, I would check out Hailun - a newer Chinese company that has an Austrian partner in the company. They are determined to impact the market and I know very well trained pianists who are quite thrilled with their product. Oh - And I used to be attracted to Baldwin, until they began having their mechanisms made in Mexico. Wow - stiff action.
The attraction of a piano's tone for each individual is obviously subjective. If you are classically trained, you will most likely be attracted to a mellower, European sound. If you play mostly pop/rock......the Asian bright tones may be what you like. (Elton John plays a Steinway in his own home, but a Yamaha on stage). For me, the action is imperative. I have played grand pianos with action so slow that I had to amend my arrangements during a performance........not fun.
Keeping a piano tuned is also a consideration. Some brands "fall out" easily in certain weather environments (very humid, or very dry). Schimmels are very hard to hold a tune. Yamahas are very stable. Since moving to Arizona, my own piano tone is different (last service costing $400).
Bottom line: since being slapped into reality by problems with Steinway.......my dream piano would be Mason and Hamlin. They just sound like warm chocolate. Those things make me swoon.

[pianote...@gmail.com]

I hear what you are saying about Petrof. Some individual pianos are ok, but overall inconsistent and over-priced . I would go the Kawai. Rebecca

[richar...@invisipics.com]

On Sunday, 15 June 2014 10:52:33 UTC+2, richar...@invisipics.com wrote:

> I don't know from your post whether you're buying new or second-hand, but we have a Petrof mod. IV from the 1970s and I'm really happy with it. Having recently (April 2014) toured the Petrof factory at Hradec Kralové, I can testify to the knowledge, dedication and quality materials that go into making these pianos. Believe me, they're cheap at the price. The bad reputation you mention comes from the period when Petrof was turned into a state company under communism and all the Petrof family members, responsible for the production of pianos from 1864, were turned out of the business, which basically started selling every musical instrument under the sun and thus the quality of the pianos suffered. Fortunately, since the fall of communism, the Petrof family has regained control of the business, sold off all the extraneous activities and the company is back to the sole business of making pianos. This year marks the 150th anniversary of the founding of the company and I've tried one of the new Anton Petrov grands - very impressive.
>
>
>
> I've just noticed that your post is really old, so probably all this is for nothing. What did you go for in the end?

[tamn...@gmail.com]

I think overall, I would prefer the Kawai to Petrof. The Petrofs are temperamental and overpriced for what you are getting. The problems with inconsistent quality that plagued them have not really been resolved (maybe Petrof has been too focused on its furniture making business!). Tam

[tmea...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:40:00 AM UTC+10, tamn...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think overall, I would prefer the Kawai to Petrof. The Petrofs are temperamental and overpriced for what you are getting. The problems with inconsistent quality that plagued them have not really been resolved (maybe Petrof has been too focused on its furniture making business!). Tam

Hello

Does anybody know what is happening with Petrof Australia? Petrof have posted something on their website about their Australian distributors talking about "dubious" Michelle Conway and Paul Ellaway damaging Petrof in Australia. I don't know what the rights and wrongs are here- does anybody know what is happening here or whether there is any substance to it? Tim

[terry...@gmail.com]

I've owned a Kawai RX-6 for 16 years, had it voiced about 9 years ago...it's tone and playability is absolutely beautiful. I've had other people play this 7 ft piano and tell me they can't believe it's a Kawai. I also record on a 7'6 Kawai in Nashville - also a GREAT piano. Kawai gets a bad name because people who don't know anything about them buy them for their church, home or whatever, and then they never take care of them. Having this one voice 9 years ago has made a tremendous difference...mello, powerful, still crisp when it needs to be. I would put it against any Steinway I've played in the past 20 years without reservation. I am a concert pianist by profession.