"Appassionata" fingering?

John Erickson

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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What's the "best" fingering for the first four notes of the
first theme of the third movement of Beethoven's "Appassionata"?

C up to F up to Ab up to C

1 2 3 1 ?

1 2 4 3 ?

L Duncan Vinson

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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John Erickson wrote:
> What's the "best" fingering for the first four notes of the
> first theme of the third movement of Beethoven's "Appassionata"?

Schenker gives 1-2-4-3. I personally would try 1-2-3-1 first, though.
If neither is satisfactory you might want to consider using the left hand
for the second beat.

--
L. Duncan Vinson - M.A. student in ethnomusicology
Brown University - l...@brown.edu.remove

greg presley

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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I think 1234. (Maybe that was what you intended to write as your second
option). The whole measure would then be 123454323212342. However, this
fingering will be awkward for some hands. Blame Beethoven!
Greg Presley

John Erickson <qs...@datasync.com> wrote in article
<6ecscf$8f9$2...@osh2.datasync.com>...

> What's the "best" fingering for the first four notes of the
> first theme of the third movement of Beethoven's "Appassionata"?
>

Jason Sifford

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Another somewhat creative choice might be 12354321432...

(I'm the KING of "creative" fingerings.) :)

John Erickson wrote in message <6ecscf$8f9$2...@osh2.datasync.com>...

NSDuncan

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

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At the ripe old age of 52 I've been playing the Appasionata since I was a
senior in college - about 30 years. Way back then I was trying all those
funny fingerings those hallowed editors from the 19th Century were promoting,
like 1243, 1231, etc. My teacher who was a former Rudolf Serkin student said
this is ridiculous; use 12345. I've been doing that ever since. I don't have
large hands, and it works like clockwork, reliable and safe whether I'm playing
it on the modern piano or on a fortepiano. I vote for 1234.

Niles Duncan

Cc88m

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

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In article <19980315085...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, nsdu...@aol.com
(NSDuncan) writes:

Absolutely. The two most commonly used fingerings are 1243 and 1234,
and both work; however, because the third finger is so strong, beginning
students often end up playing the top of the run too loud, whereas for the
expression to come out, the run has to become more audible near the end,
coming down. This is much easier to do with 1234, especially when you
get it up to speed. My hands are even
smaller, probably, and I'm 60, so don't worry about that 4th finger!
C. C. Chang

Scott Foust

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

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Take a look at the Schirmer edition. The editor gives an extended defense
of the 1243 fingering. Oh what the heck, I'll just tell you. It's probably
public domain by now anyway:

"I owe this fingering, which has a sungular look at first, but which the
practical test of years has proved to be of unrivalled excellence, to my
honored friend the music-teacher Franz Kroll of Berlin, whose editions of
the classics have done so much for the instruction of artists and public
alike. It fits the musical phrasing so perfectly, that by consistently
carrying it out the entire movement might be transposed >all'improvista<
into any other desired key. Without exactly repudiating the use of the
thumb on C on the second beat, we must acknowledge that the passing-over of
the third finger (as if with a spring) renders the needful accent less
sharp, and--as only the practising player, not the reader, can convince
himself--dismembers the whole phrase quit as little."

Gotta love those 19th-century editors! Anyway, this is how I'm learning it.

Good luck!
Scott Foust

Dean L. Surkin

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Mar 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/16/98

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I like 1235, then cross over the 4th finger, so the next four notes are 4321
(yes, I use the thumb on black keys). I find the 1243 John Erickson asks
about to be awkward for my hand, and I find the 123454 suggested by Greg
Presley to be awkward for my hand, because I feel 454 on CDbC increases
tension in my hand. The 1231 fingering John Erickson asks about I think
would be awkward for anyone.

For wonderfully thought out fingerings, there's an edition of Beethoven
sonatas edited by Schabel. He advocates using 3-5 on adjacent keys and
crossing 3 and 4 over 5, and with a little practice, these fingerings make a
lot of sense.
--Dean L. Surkin
For e-mail, remove anti-Spam "xxxx" from e-mail address.
greg presley wrote in message
<01bd4f24$1c0134e0$15ba...@Pgpresley.iea.com>...

>I think 1234. (Maybe that was what you intended to write as your second
>option). The whole measure would then be 123454323212342. However, this
>fingering will be awkward for some hands. Blame Beethoven!
>Greg Presley
>
>John Erickson <qs...@datasync.com> wrote in article

Cc88m

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Mar 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/16/98

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In article <6ei584$o...@news3.newsguy.com>, "Scott Foust"
<sco...@utah.uswest.net> writes:

>Take a look at the Schirmer edition. The editor gives an extended defense
>of the 1243 fingering. Oh what the heck, I'll just tell you. It's probably
>public domain by now anyway:
>
>

Yes; in spite of what I said previously, those learning this piece
for the first time should start with 1243; this is the safest for
greater accuracy and ease of the left hand cross-over later on.
C. C. Chang

Richard Hofheimer

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Mar 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/16/98

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Schnabel gives 1235432... (agreeing with Sifford).
I learned 1243 from an old Bulow-Lebert edition, which devoted a paragraph
in the footnotes saying how wonderful the finger is after you get used to
it. It has an advantge of emphasizing "arriving" at the 4th note.

I think both fingerings are great. The Schnabel fingering seems more
flexible.

rh

Kathie Faricy

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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For small hands (and probably others) Arrau's and Ortmann's fingering of
123143214321 is ingenious..... solved my problem, after trying all other
fingerings! Strange, but it works...... putting the thumb on the
accented beat......

kf

Carl Tait

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Mar 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/20/98

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In article <3511DD...@mn.uswest.net>,

Kathie Faricy <kmfa...@mn.uswest.net> wrote:
>Richard Hofheimer wrote:
>>
>> Schnabel gives 1235432... (agreeing with Sifford).
>> I learned 1243 from an old Bulow-Lebert edition, which devoted a paragraph
>> in the footnotes saying how wonderful the finger is after you get used to
>> it. It has an advantge of emphasizing "arriving" at the 4th note.
>

>For small hands (and probably others) Arrau's and Ortmann's fingering of
>123143214321 is ingenious..... solved my problem, after trying all other
>fingerings! Strange, but it works...... putting the thumb on the
>accented beat......

I also use 123 1432 1432, discovered by trying almost every plausible
combination of fingers (including the perverse 123 4543 2432, which
isn't as silly as it sounds). After the wrist rotation from 3 to 1
in 1231, the fourth finger is in excellent position to take the D-flat.

One point on the above comments: there is *no* accent on the fourth note.
Putting one there is a hallmark of an amateur performance. With 1243,
the bump in the line is almost unavoidable.

For maximal articulation, one might try 123 1314 3432 or 123 1313 2432,
though these don't work as well for me.

--
Carl Tait IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
cdt...@us.ibm.com Yorktown Heights, NY 10598