Small room for a grand?
Dan
Hi Folks,
OK, I'm considering grands. I have a room, 12'x23', the only one
that could take a grand piano. Is it too small? Who else has grands
in small rooms?
Dan
--
Cc88m
do everything right as explained below):
Conclusions:
(1) Fear that grands are too loud in small room is unfounded; limiting factor
is how it fits in room and appearance, not sound.
(2) With a good grand, you can play much softer than most uprights, unless you
get an upright that doesn't produce any sound.
(3) For sufficiently small room, you may need some simple sound insulation, as
explained below.
Calculations:
To calculate sound from piano for small and large room, first assume no
multiple reflections (we will consider this later); then the sound reaching you
has 7 sources: P (directly from piano) and 6 reflections -- C (ceiling), F
(floor), R (right wall), L (left wall), F (front wall), and B (back wall).
Assuming that you place the piano against L wall with lid opening towards R,
you get the SAME sound from C, L, P, and F for both the small and large room
(remember we are assuming no multiple reflections). Then the ONLY difference
between large and small room is from F, B, and R. Actually, C contributes the
least because the open lid reflects sound to the R. Therefore, if you sound
insulate R and either F or B, the small room will produce about the same sound
as a large one. In addition, it is a simple matter to place a rug under the
piano to eliminate F. It turns out that if you insulate 2 walls and F, almost
all multiple relfections are eliminated, which validates our assumption.
Insulating walls is not difficult; get a good looking rug or an American Indian
decorator blanket and hang it on wall. You can also purchase wall sound
insulation panels and simply tack them on.
C. C. Chang; more on piano practice at
John DeGood
computers and 2 bookcases. :-) At my previous house it was in a 20' x
22' room with a cathedral ceiling where it admittedly sounded much
better, but I still enjoy it in the smaller room.
John
lmoore1
would "work" in this room? There will only be perhaps one other chair in
the room -- it is being transformed into a music room.
Paul
"John DeGood" <nu...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:k9OdnQpsA_S...@comcast.com...
EP
room was added on to the house for a music studio.
In my experience the volume of the piano is not a problem, but what
needs to be dealt with is the multiple reflections from parallel
walls. (I'm sure there's plenty of discussions of this around on the
net).
This is my own unscientific analysis - I hope someone will correct me
if I'm making any wrong assumptions.
I did a simple calculation of the resonance frequency of an 8'
distance between the floor and ceiling, and came up with 1128 feet per
second as the speed of sound at 20 degrees celsius and 40 percent
humidity. Divided by 16 feet for the round-trip this would make a
resonant frequency of 70.5 cycles per second which is right around a
C#/Bb.
The fact that all my dimensions are multiples of 8', the floor is
hardwood, and the walls are parallel, I'm sure would make a pretty
picture if the room were empty, and you did some sort of frequency
analysis of the comb filtering, etc.
I think that when you look at bass frequencies of a piano, they are
low enough that simply padding the surfaces don't really affect them -
the padding will cut down on the higher frequencies, but won't do much
for the comb filtering, especially with the stronger bass of the
larger piano.
I found that the single most important factor in the sound of the
piano in my room is lifting the piano lid. That does a great deal to
eliminate the ceiling to floor resonance, and I suppose wall to wall
resonance as well, simply by the fact that it is a large angled
surface in the middle.
I also placed a full-size couch and a padded chair in the room. In
addition I have bookshelves placed around some of the walls, including
in a couple of the corners, angled to eliminate the square corner
effect.
Also, a rug under the piano, and some strategically-placed padding
(and a couple of large stuffed animals) in a few places has
effectively eliminated any resonance problems and resulted in a nice
sound.
Probably with a smaller piano I would have had less to deal with since
the bass resonance would be less of an issue, but I think if you are
willing to go to the trouble of working with the room you can put a
large piano in a small room and enjoy it immensely.
I have a question, though, in case anybody is still reading this post.
Has anyone actually physically measured the loudness of the same piano
from the player's position in different rooms or even outside where
there's no reflective walls? What I'm really curious about is how much
of the volume that reaches the player comes directly from the piano,
and how much from reflections? Any data on this?
Mark A.
I have a M&H BB (7 footer) in a 12x13 bedroom (with a ceiling that
slopes up to a maximum height of about 10 feet), and it sounds great.
It's no louder than the Steinway M (5'7") that used to reside there.
Probably the carpets and the bed help to damp the sound somewhat.
When the BB first arrived, it sounded very loud and I thought I'd made
a huge mistake placing it in the bedroom. But after it got tuned a
month later, the loudness problem disappeared. Duh!
Cc88m
>of the volume that reaches the player comes directly from the piano,
>and how much from reflections? Any data on this?
With the music stand down, about 50% comes from the piano, the rest is
reflections. With the stand up, much less than 50% comes from the piano. This
was demonstrated drammatically to me while performing on an acoustically good
stage, when I forgot to put the music stand down -- I COULDN'T HEAR MY
PLAYING! The sound just disappeared into the audience.
Dan
The width of a grand is 6 5'? I thought it was about 5'? At least
according to Larry Fine's The Piano Book.
Dan
Chel van Gennip <ch...@vangennip.nl> wrote:
: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:29:58 +0100, Dan wrote:
:> Hi Folks,
:> OK, I'm considering grands. I have a room, 12'x23', the only one
:> that could take a grand piano. Is it too small? Who else has grands in
:> small rooms?
: I think 12' is a bit small to handle the piano. The width of a piano is
: about 6'5, you need room to put the piano on its side an room for a man
: to handle it. Furthermore a technician should be able to reach the piano
: from all sides.
: If you have a small room it is difficult, but not impossible to get the
: acoustics right. In our pianostudio (18'x18) we have solved this problem
: mostly in the ceiling. Te ceiling is in an angle and has special acoutic
: tiles that absorb about 50% of the sound for all frequencies.
: The fooor is flat wood, the wall are wood with texture. In one corner we
: have a closet of about 4'x5' to break the geometry.
: Our 6'5 grand sounds perfect in this room.
:
--
Gary L.
>>What I'm really curious about is how much
>>of the volume that reaches the player comes directly from the piano,
>>and how much from reflections? Any data on this?
>
>With the music stand down, about 50% comes from the piano, the rest is
>reflections. With the stand up, much less than 50% comes from the piano. This
>was demonstrated drammatically to me while performing on an acoustically good
>stage, when I forgot to put the music stand down -- I COULDN'T HEAR MY
>PLAYING! The sound just disappeared into the audience.
Such generalizations are meaningless. The amount of sound reflected
varies by the room and the distance from the sound source. Also
reflections will vary with the frequency of the pitch and the
placement of the sound source within the room.
An anechoic chamber will have virtually no reflected sound and nearly
100% of the sound will be "direct." If you are in an acoustically live
room and are a reasonable distance from the sound source, most of the
sound energy reaching your ears (over 90%) will be reflected off the
walls. A concert hall is likely to act much differently than a living
room in the typical house. And simply moving the sound source (in this
case, the piano) around the room will make a huge difference in terms
of reflected sound and resonances.
There have been *lots* of studies of this for a variety of reasons,
including concert hall design, the design of sound reinforcing
equipment and the design of sound reproduction equipment.
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only
Dean Tran
Chang and Gary: This subject baffles me as much as anyone else. I
can't describe how musical sound gets into my ears but can only sense
how sounds felt like in a specific acoustic environment from a
specific listening location. How sounds resonantes in our ears
depends on environemnt where the music source originates, where sounds
come in our senses in both direct or indirectly bounced off walls in
multiple paths. I coun't feel full sound and nuance of my 7' grand
when I played it in the huge sale floor and thought that something was
missing with this piano, except listening it on the right side of the
piano from 10' distance when someone else played it, only then I could
hear a fuller, subtler and more satisfied nuance of the instrument. I
brought home this piano into a room of 25x18, the sound is more
complex and fuller than it've ever been on show floor, it feels more
like a rush of oncoming locomotive in a city block rather than thin
rush of trains in a vast empty middle of nowhere.
Dean
Gary Rimar
"Mark A." <ma...@tsoft.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbumv9r...@marka.ppp.tsoft.com...
Or your hearing did <smirk>.
Gary (I'm just kidding, and I only wish the best for you and your ears)
Rimar
Cc88m
>depends on environemnt where the music source originates, where sounds
>come in our senses in both direct or indirectly bounced off walls in
>multiple paths. I coun't feel full sound and nuance of my 7' grand
>when I played it in the huge sale floor and thought that something was
>missing with this piano, except listening it on the right side of the
>piano from 10' distance when someone else played it, only then I could
>hear a fuller, subtler and more satisfied nuance of the instrument.
That is basically what I was trying to convey. On an acoustical stage, with a
full audience (a good sound absorber), even a concert grand sounds thin and
nothing like what the audience hears. I was also pointing out that, in that
case, most of the sound comes to the pianist directly from the piano so that if
you have the music stand up, it will intercept a lot of THAT. I have read that
some people have tried to increase the sound reaching the audience by placing a
reflector BELOW the piano in addition to the lid. I believe this does not work
because the sound from below is out of phase with the sound from above and the
bottom of the piano is designed to be the outlet for the lowest frequency
sounds, as in the subwoofer of HiFi speakers. Therefore, a reflector under the
piano completely screws us the original acoustical design.
EP
interested in any comments on it.
Since it is obviously not practical for me to move my piano around, I
set up a portable keyboard next to it for the experiment. It has two
6" speakers, pointed up (your typical consumer keyboard).
I then placed a Radio-Shack sound level meter 36" from the keyboard
(the idea here is to replicate reasonably well the position of the
player's ear from the sound source, in this case the upward-facing
speakers instead of the grand's horizontal sound board).
I had the keyboard playing a sustained "chord" (all the white keys
from middle C to B above, the idea being to more-or-less reduce the
effect of any comb filtering in the room, at least for that octave)
and set the volume to produce a reading of 90 db. This is about the
same reading I get with the sound-level meter next to my ear, while
seated at the piano, repeatedly playing the same 7-note chord with the
sustain pedal depressed.
My piano studio is 16' x 24' with an 8' ceiling and a fair amount of
eggshell foam on the walls and ceiling, area rugs on the hardwood
floor, a couch, and some bookshelves. The piano is a 7'4" grand in the
center of one end of the room (a few feet from any wall). The lid was
fully open.
I then took the keyboard outside, away from the house, and set it up
exactly as before. (There were about 8 inches of fluffy snow on the
ground, as well.)
With the keyboard playing the same chord at the same volume level the
sound level meter registered 89 db, one db lower than inside.
My living room, which is about the same size as my piano studio,
carpeted and with a normal complement of padded furniture but no
absorbtive material on the walls or ceiling, yeilded a reading about
one db higher than the piano room. An office room about half the size
yeilded a reading about 3 db higher than the piano room.
My understanding is that 3 db represents a doubling in power, but not
a doubling in perceived loudness. A difference of 10 db is generally
referenced as being perceived as twice as loud, so presumably one db
would be barely perceivable as a difference in loudness.
My conclusion is that a reasonably well-padded studio or living room
is not a whole lot louder for the pianist than a concert hall would be
(assuming a concert hall is similar to my yard).
As I stated at the start, I recognize this is fairly unscientific,
especially given the difference in the sound source, but does my
conclusion seem at all reasonable?
Gary L.
>As I stated at the start, I recognize this is fairly unscientific,
>especially given the difference in the sound source, but does my
>conclusion seem at all reasonable?
The only reliable way to measure direct versus reflected sound is by
measuring the time delay of a short pulse of sound energy. Reflected
sound takes a longer path from the source to the listener (since it is
reflected off a wall or other surface). So if you map the acoustic
energy versus time, you see the pattern of direct versus reflected
sound. The initial spike is the direct energy, and the reflections
appear as energy following the initial spike in time. It is the time
spread (and not the max peak volume) that is significant. You must use
calibrated, top quality equipment, a proper sound source, and
controlled testing conditions to get anything like meaningful results.
EP
Thanks, Gary. That makes sense - I suppose that's something like an
"impulse response", a term I've heard used relative to computerized
reverb algorithms.
But, thinking about the original poster's question about a grand piano
in a small room, and other similar threads, it seems like volume is
the issue, or at least one of the issues - i.e., is a certain size
grand too loud for a certain size room. So if I were merely trying to
find out if a piano sounded louder (and I'm limiting it to the
player's position in the room for purposes of my question) in a
certain room than in another, wouldn't a simple measurement like I
described be of some value?
Gary L.
>> The only reliable way to measure direct versus reflected sound is by
>> measuring the time delay of a short pulse of sound energy. Reflected
>> sound takes a longer path from the source to the listener (since it is
>> reflected off a wall or other surface). So if you map the acoustic
>> energy versus time, you see the pattern of direct versus reflected
>> sound. The initial spike is the direct energy, and the reflections
>> appear as energy following the initial spike in time. It is the time
>> spread (and not the max peak volume) that is significant. You must use
>> calibrated, top quality equipment, a proper sound source, and
>> controlled testing conditions to get anything like meaningful results.
>Thanks, Gary. That makes sense - I suppose that's something like an
>"impulse response", a term I've heard used relative to computerized
>reverb algorithms.
>But, thinking about the original poster's question about a grand piano
>in a small room, and other similar threads, it seems like volume is
>the issue, or at least one of the issues - i.e., is a certain size
>grand too loud for a certain size room. So if I were merely trying to
>find out if a piano sounded louder (and I'm limiting it to the
>player's position in the room for purposes of my question) in a
>certain room than in another, wouldn't a simple measurement like I
>described be of some value?
Your method doesn't tell you much about the room in terms of
resonances at specific frequencies. Using a sound source like a sine
wave generator at various frequencies played through a single speaker
could help you identify the resonances in the room. I even have some
old phonograph records with recordings of sine waves at various
frequencies intended to test for room resonances using a stereo
systems. Ideally, you would use a microphone and a speaker with known
properties which you use to calibrate your test equipment.
You can address room reverberations and standing waves by adding sound
absorbing furnishings, as you observed. Sometimes moving the sound
source just a few inches will correct annoying resonances at lower
frequencies. Parallel surfaces are certainly a problem, but there's
not too much you can do about that after the building is built.
In terms of the big piano in a small room, I think it is fairly easy
to reduce the volume of sound from a piano, simply by closing the lid,
using a fabric cover over the strings and sound board, using sound
absorbent furnishings, etc. From my perspective, the main problem with
a big piano in a little room is the lack of seating for an audience.
If you play for yourself only, then it's fine. But if you want to
entertain a few guests, then they are stuck listening to you from a
adjoining room. It is even worse if you want to accompany another
instrument or singer. I don't give concerts or recitals for my guests,
but on occasion a few people will want to listen to me play. (In fact,
that happened just a couple of hours ago.) It's much more fun if they
can relax on a nearby sofa and stretch out rather than being squeezed
in the corner because the room is filled with piano.
Cc88m
>referenced as being perceived as twice as loud, so presumably one db
>would be barely perceivable as a difference in loudness.
Correct. The Deci-Bell was invented at Bell Labs and is 1/10th of a "Bell", a
new unit of loudness at that time. The db was chosen so that it was the
smallest audible difference to the experimenters.
>My conclusion is that a reasonably well-padded studio or living room
>is not a whole lot louder for the pianist than a concert hall would be
>(assuming a concert hall is similar to my yard).
>As I stated at the start, I recognize this is fairly unscientific,
>especially given the difference in the sound source, but does my
>conclusion seem at all reasonable?
>
This experiment may not be valid. The size of the speaker you used is much
smaller than the distance from the center of a grand to the sitting pianist.
Therefore, it creates a spherical wave whose intensity decreases as 1/r*r. A
piano has a SB whose size is comparable to the said distance, and creates more
of a plane wave and decreases much more slowly. The two results are comparable
when you are far away from both sources; however, here, we are only concerned
about short distances. Thus the difference between piano and speaker is not
important to the audience but it could be very important to the pianist.
I've tried the following experiment with surprising results. Play a large
grand in a small room. Then walk around in the room -- you will hear all kinds
of different sounds depending on where you stand, if you are within a few feet
of the piano. If your experiment is valid, this should not happen.
You can also measure the relative importance of multiple reflections in a room
by standing between two flat walls and clapping your hand. You will hear the
echos of your clap like the rat-at-at of a machine gun. Count the number of
echos and they can easily exceed 5 in many situations. This is the basis of a
"roaring dragon" in a Japanese temple, that roars when you stand under it and
clap your hands.
Dean Tran
Your piano might make noises that your brain blocked out before
tuning, thus sounded louder.
EP
when thinking about the piano size / room size decision.
1. Physical fit - for the tech to access the piano, other musicians,
audience, etc. If the room has other uses (e.g. living room) that
would obviously have to be taken into account as well.
2. Volume of sound.
3. Resonant frequencies.
The physical fit seems fairly straightforward, depending on the
intended use of the room, etc. A tape measure (and perhaps one of
those piano templates the dealers have) should be the only tool
required.
Volume, if it's a problem, can be dealt with in a number of ways, as
discussed.
Resonant frequencies clearly is the most complex issue. A professional
solution to this issue would have to start with room design, acoustic
treatment, instrument placement, etc. My guess is that this is beyond
the budget and/or interest of most piano buyers, unless they are in a
professional situation, e.g. a recording studio or perfomance venue.
Most folks probably have a space they can put a piano, and a limited
amount of modification they can do to the space, after-the-fact. As I
said, this is just a quess, and certainly everyone's situation and
priorities are different.
One thing is still not clear to me, though: the frequency issue seems
to be primarily a factor of the physics of the room, and placement of
the instrument and the listener within the space. It seems like if I
have a problem with certain frequencies, I'll have that problem
whether they are coming from a loudspeaker, a guitar, a cello, a 6'
piano, or a 7' piano. In other words this seems to be more of a basic
problem that is not really related to the size of the piano (aside
from the fact that it is a fairly large object in the room).
