Help with piano price negotiations
Ned Hamilton
Yamaha, Baldwin, and Kawai.
I'm shocked at the sleazy dealerships who seem to have no hesitation to
change prices as the wind blows. Once we decide between Yamaha, Baldwin and
Kawai, how will we know if we are getting the best price?
We have narrowed it down to only the cherry wood models. The Yamaha 500
series is priced at $3,900 and but we've talked the dealer down from an
original price of $4,500 and can't get the dealer to come down any more. The
Baldwin 660 is on sale for $3,450. And the Kawai 505T is on sale at $3,695
but will probably come down with some pressure.
We just have no feel for how far we can try to negotiate the price down with
these guys. Any pricing help would be appreciated.
Barbara N
<ne...@nospam.bellsouth.net> wrote:
>We just have no feel for how far we can try to negotiate the price down with
>these guys. Any pricing help would be appreciated.
>
Are you against piano dealers making any profit on what they sell?
Barbara N.
Trey Behan
>We just have no feel for how far we can try to negotiate the price down with
>these guys.
Try negotiating down the service and support too. That'll make the "deal" even
CHEAPER. Give up the warranty, service bond, tuning, adjustments, maybe even
the bench. Then pick up the piano at the store yourself and put it in a
trailer. GO FOR IT, Donald!
Trey Behan
Kensei
news:19991008221111...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
To be quite frank, no one I know really likes the way cars are priced at car
dealers or how pianos are priced at many piano dealers. Most Americans want
to be given a single price for an item and be able to freely get that price
and compare it with another source. But most piano dealers don't work like
that. This means that the customer is always afraid of not getting as good a
deal as the next person; of being taken advantage of.
Every dealer that stickers, for example, a Petrof 131 at $13,900 and then
sells it for $7,200 after the customer balks and gets advice from the
newsgroup (as happened a month ago to one of the ng regulars) feeds this
feeling that there are a lot of dealers who are less than forthright about
prices. If I had my druthers, I'd walk away from any dealer like that - but
some areas there is so little choice that the customer can't realistically
do that.
As to service and support, how much service does a Japanese console need
after delivery? What's the average number of service calls? And how many can
be avoided by doing good setup in the store?
Does your car dealer give you worse warrantee service if you bargained hard
when you bought the car?
Come on, dealers...if you want to avoid people bargaining hard, try marking
your merchandise with the price you actually consider fair and then
consistently refuse to sell for any other price to anyone, even if it's been
a slow month and you really want the turnover or need the cash flow. Just
say NO to dickering. If you really have to have a 40% margin, as some have
suggested in this ng, then stand by your guns on it. But don't complain when
a customer goes to the next town where the dealer is selling at a 20% or 10%
margin.
Ned, you didn't mention how your choices sound and feel. Do you really not
have a preference except based on price? That's ok if you want it as
furniture (and your comments about wood choices make me think that might be
the case), but if you want a musical instrument, you should be concentrating
on the personal interaction with its musical qualities first and foremost.
Regards.
b...@thepianosource.com
This is a thread that has been going in one form or another since this
newsgroup began. While this sounds real good, in fact it just doesn't
work and the dealers who have tried have been forced to go back to the
current system of pricing. This bargaining heritage started even at a
time when the average piano was purchased in a furniture store or the
furniture department of a department store. Furniture was, and in many
places still is, a negotiated item.
>
>Come on, dealers...if you want to avoid people bargaining hard, try marking
>your merchandise with the price you actually consider fair and then
>consistently refuse to sell for any other price to anyone, even if it's been
>a slow month and you really want the turnover or need the cash flow. Just
>say NO to dickering.
Without beating the issue over and over, you can review it in places
like dega.com, etc., I have experienced people not purchasing from me
and going and buying NOT a different item but the very same item from
another dealer for MORE money simply because the other dealer started
higher and gave a bigger discount. I have called this the ultimate
stupidity of the price shopper. While this is not directly related to
the main subject of the posting, it still is the bottom line that
counts, not the depth of the discount nor the size of the trade
allowance. You can start with the dealer 'standing fast' but that only
will work if all do it and the buying public is willing to accept the
pricing. In reality it just doesn't happen. So what is your suggestion
other than putting the burden just on the dealers? What about banning
postings to this NG like the current thread where the poster simply
wants to get the grade Z price but still wants the grade A service? Do
we ban the month long threads that have occured about how to beat the
dealer down? Do we ban the people who post untrue and unrealistic
price quotes just to show they can get a better deal? You know these
are unrealistic ideas that won't work. Of course that's the freedom of
the NG and that's what makes it work.
--
Bob Shapiro - - located in paradise (southwest Florida)
A retail salesperson dealing in major brands with years of
experience both in normal retail sales but also in college
and armory type sales. I have represented Steinway, Schimmel, Baldwin, Kimball, Weber, Yamaha, Bosendorfer, Feurich,
Nakamichi, Kemble, Seiler, Schumann, Korg, Roland, and many others.
Currently representing Kawai, Petrof, Kohler & Campbell, Samick, Technics.
For credentials and also for
the answers to many of your questions please see
http://www.thepianosource.com
Dave Zappa
> Most Americans want
> to be given a single price for an item and be able to freely get that price
> and compare it with another source.
I disagree with this statement. Most Americans want to feel like they
bought something cheaper than the "average" buyer. We have grown up in
a culture where in order to justify a purhcase, it needs to be on
"sale". We want a DEAL!
> Every dealer that stickers, for example, a Petrof 131 at $13,900 and then
> sells it for $7,200 after the customer balks and gets advice from the
> newsgroup (as happened a month ago to one of the ng regulars) feeds this
> feeling that there are a lot of dealers who are less than forthright about
> prices. If I had my druthers, I'd walk away from any dealer like that - but
> some areas there is so little choice that the customer can't realistically
> do that.
I would walk away also, because this is a dealer that is expoliting the
lack of information for consumers regarding pianos to give that consumer
a feeling that they got a great DEAL. It is not illegal, but it
certainly skirts the limits of ethics to suggest a list price on an item
is nearly 2x what they sell it for to everyone, everyday. I might add
here that there are MANY retailers who use this approach and I guarantee
that they have earned business from each one of us (furniture stores
come to mind). As far as choice, you suggest later in your post that if
you don't want to pay a 40% mark there is another dealer offering 20% in
another town. Well, you're right, and if you don't want to deal with
the 1/2 Price piano store there is another dealer who will be more
forthcoming with pricing issues as well. I would also suggest that the
1/2 Price dealer is the guy selling at 20%.
> As to service and support, how much service does a Japanese console need
> after delivery? What's the average number of service calls? And how many can
> be avoided by doing good setup in the store?
Some, but not much. How much can be avoided by a good prep by the
dealer? Quite a bit. How much prep will be done by a dealer offering a
20% mark-up? None.
> Does your car dealer give you worse warrantee service if you bargained hard
> when you bought the car?
No, but service on pianos and cars are different issues. A car dealer
(if you haven't noticed) doesn't make much profit SELLING cars, they
make profit SERVICING cars and selling PARTS. The car manufacturer pays
the dealer a pretty decent (and profitable) sum to service cars covered
under warranty. A piano dealer gains profit for SALES, and believe it
or not LOSES money on service. Manufacturers do not add to the bottom
line in the piano business like they do in the car business.
> Come on, dealers...if you want to avoid people bargaining hard, try marking
> your merchandise with the price you actually consider fair and then
> consistently refuse to sell for any other price to anyone, even if it's been
> a slow month and you really want the turnover or need the cash flow. Just
> say NO to dickering. If you really have to have a 40% margin, as some have
> suggested in this ng, then stand by your guns on it. But don't complain when
> a customer goes to the next town where the dealer is selling at a 20% or 10%
> margin.
Ok, we'll do that (actually our company has). Now, consumers - will you
PLEASE realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and that
somehow, somewhere that piano you saved 20% on by selecting it from a
"lowball" dealer is going to end up costing you. Please understand that
when I tell you my Yamaha M500H is $4000 there is a dealer willing to
sell it for $3000. Also understand that when I say we will offer you
what we consider the best service in the industry we mean it. No lip
service in our store, that's what you get for your extra thousand. Not
to mention you can be assured that you will pay the same amount for that
piano that everyone does, our SELLING PRICE is on the piano and we have
NO ROOM to negotiate unless there is a LEGITIMATE exception.
I don't mind you going down to the next town to check their prices, I
know what happens. They price a M500H at $4000 until they find out you
live in my town and all of a sudden the price is $3000. Try it
sometime. Visit a local dealer & get their price, then go down the road
and visit another dealer & get their price. Don't tell them where you
live and that you've been shopping until you've been given a price.
Now, tell them you've been shopping and live out of their market. Watch
what happens (this is especially fun at Yamaha dealers). Now, tell me
you trust your $3000 to them. Eventually the cream rises to the top.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Dave Zappa
>
> We are in the market for a new $3,000 to $4,000 piano and are looking at
> Yamaha, Baldwin, and Kawai.
>
> I'm shocked at the sleazy dealerships who seem to have no hesitation to
> change prices as the wind blows. Once we decide between Yamaha, Baldwin and
> Kawai, how will we know if we are getting the best price?
>
> We have narrowed it down to only the cherry wood models. The Yamaha 500
> series is priced at $3,900 and but we've talked the dealer down from an
> original price of $4,500 and can't get the dealer to come down any more. The
> Baldwin 660 is on sale for $3,450. And the Kawai 505T is on sale at $3,695
> but will probably come down with some pressure.
>
Ned:
Once again a fairly lively debate on piano pricing has been sparked by
your post. After reading the repsonses I don't know if you've been
helped that much at all. I just responded to "Kensei" who suggested
dealers "one-price" pianos (an uncommon practice in this business that
our company actually does). You have found out why I think the
one-price philosophy works. You are a fairly new consumer to the piano
biz, and have very little reliable information to go on to decide if you
are getting a good deal or not.
If you want a feel for how to negotiate do one of two things; get the
"Piano Book" to learn about pianos & how to buy one and the "Piano Book
1999-2000 Pricing Supplement" to get a feel for how much the pianos
should cost or keep posting to this group, maybe e-mail some of it's
regular participants & check Dejanews for "Yamaha, Kawai & Baldwin &
pricing. Once you are better informed you can start to make the right
decisions.
With the environment to buy a piano and the nature of a piano purchase
in general such as it is, we can't just say $3500 is a good deal for
you. But, we can help you learn about the environment and the nature of
purchasing a piano to help you make an informed choice.
The prices you have quoted above are not out of line with reality.
Specifically I know the M500QA Yamaha retails for a little better than
$5000 and the Baldwin 660 for approximately $4700. "Street" prices for
these pianos vary as much as $500, but $4000-$4500 is not out of line
for any of them, given the proper set of circumstances. Likewise
$3000-$3500 is not out of line either given an entirely different set of
circumstances. Confused? Take some time to do some research, it will
make it much easier to write the check.
VOCE88
>to be given a single price for an item and be able to freely get that price
>that. This means that the customer is always afraid of not getting as good a
>deal as the next person; of being taken advantage of.
>
>sells it for $7,200 after the customer balks and gets advice from the
>newsgroup (as happened a month ago to one of the ng regulars) feeds this
>feeling that there are a lot of dealers who are less than forthright about
>prices. If I had my druthers, I'd walk away from any dealer like that - but
>some areas there is so little choice that the customer can't realistically
>do that.
>
>after delivery? What's the average number of service calls? And how many can
>be avoided by doing good setup in the store?
>
>when you bought the car?
>
>your merchandise with the price you actually consider fair and then
>consistently refuse to sell for any other price to anyone, even if it's been
>a slow month and you really want the turnover or need the cash flow. Just
>say NO to dickering. If you really have to have a 40% margin, as some have
>suggested in this ng, then stand by your guns on it. But don't complain when
>a customer goes to the next town where the dealer is selling at a 20% or 10%
>margin.
>
Well said.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila,. Pa.
1 (800) 394-1117
Jory Olson
>If you want a feel for how to negotiate do one of two things; get the
>"Piano Book" to learn about pianos & how to buy one and the "Piano Book
>1999-2000 Pricing Supplement" to get a feel for how much the pianos
>should cost or keep posting to this group, maybe e-mail some of it's
>regular participants & check Dejanews for "Yamaha, Kawai & Baldwin &
>pricing. Once you are better informed you can start to make the right
>decisions.
I would add that you can get specific pricing information on a particular
model for $5 per quote ($15 minimum) by visiting:
http://www.tiac.net/users/pianobk/
I also believe that you will regret it if you try and wring every last
dollar out of the purchase. This assumes you're buying the piano to play
it; not as furniture. If you keep your dealer happy and in business he can
make service ever so much better and easier for you.
Jory
--
Remove "NOSPAM" from address to reply
There's a special level of purgatory for spammers!
Ned Hamilton
non-real-world responses, and totally useless.
I know nothing about pianos. The piano is for my 10 year old daughter who
has just started taking piano lessons. We looked at middle of the line
consoles from Yamaha, Kawai, and Baldwin. They all sounded the same to me
and I'm sure to my daughter. We talked to a half-dozen piano teachers,
tuners, and professional musicians who said that for a 10 year old, any of
the pianos we were considering would be fine.
So that leaves the bottom line (the price), service, and resale value.
Again the three dealers had equivalent reputations.
The piano we bought yesterday had a price last week of $5,300. This weekend
they had a sale with a price on a card on the piano of $4,700. We
negotiated with the dealer and got a price of $3,800. That's 28% below the
price last week.
Sounds like lots of you are suggesting that we should have offered them
$5,300.
When I go to the grocery store, I pay the posted price for items. When I
shop for cars, I use the posted price and the dealer's cost to determine a
fair price to offer. Looks like pianos are in the same negotiating category
as cars. Unfortunately there is little price or cost info available on
pianos. The piano price books have lots of flaws: they are not regionalized,
they don't take into account a dealer's excess inventory, nor do they
consider any factory incentives to "clear" the floor like my dealer had this
weekend. I have no idea what his net cost was for the piano. So I don't know
if I got a great deal.
Perhaps lots of people paid $5,300 for the same piano. Maybe some paid
$4,700 and maybe some paid less than we. I'm certaintly not going to buy a
piano for $4,700 just because that's the price on the "sticker" if I know
the dealer will take less. I have the same warranty as anyone else, the
same free tunings the first year, and the bench too.
The dealer lives in a $1,000,000 home neighborhood and drives a large
Mercedes so he's making a reasonable profit on his pianos. Besides we
weren't holding a gun to his head, he didn't have to sell the piano to us at
the $3,800.
To those of you who think that by negotiating the price down, I condemmed
myself to a life of miserable service I have this to say: The dealer will
not remember my negitiating for more than a few minutes. He's not going to
tarnish his reputation nor his integrity by giving me lousy service because
I made him unhappy. By following your logic, I should have given him
$10,000 instead of $3,800. Then he'd be so happy, he would be at my front
door every morning, offering to service my piano! Besides I still don't know
if he is unhappy at the final price. I don't know if he made $100, $500,
$1,000...
The real world is that pianos have become "negotiated-price" goods--like it
or not. And buyers are not going to pay sticker price. The more info the
buyer has about the dealer's cost the better the negotiating will be. Those
of you who have studied economics will know that the more information the
buyer and seller have the more stable the price will become.
John S. Gray
many others who worked as commission-sales agents for the late Hans
Moeller (1901-1995) at his shop in Toronto.
His shop was never a one-brand store, so there were a myriad of
calculations to determine the real landed/prepped/ready for delivery cost
of every unit on the floor, from a Bechstein B all the way down to a
Kawai CX4.
He paid us a percentage of the difference between his landed cost and the
selling price. Fair enough, but as the Reagan/Mulroney era progressed,
and certain piano wholesalers would grant a franchaise to any warm body
with $65,000 in credit notes, the whole system broke down.
`I had to bargain for hours! People know the price of everything and the
value of nothing' ...with apologies to Oscar Wilde...
As 80% of the piano biz is still (Richard, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong
here) low-cost pianos i.e. CX4's or whatever is the current market
equivalent, there was little room for imagination or manoeverability for
the salesman's part. Mostly the XYZ piano warehouse uptown closed the
customer, with a mere $35.00 mardown under ours. Happened again and again.
Every one of our pianos were in perfect tune, but most of the the customers
cared not one whit.
Oh well, that store is long gone, old Moeller is gone too. Only the
memory remains.
John S. Gray
Isolated out in Atlantic Canada
Tom Shaw
TS
Timothy Liang
> I also believe that you will regret it if you try and wring every last
> dollar out of the purchase. This assumes you're buying the piano to
play
> it; not as furniture. If you keep your dealer happy and in business
he can
> make service ever so much better and easier for you.
>
> Jory
>
> --
> Remove "NOSPAM" from address to reply
> There's a special level of purgatory for spammers!
>
>
I have heard a lot "make your dealer happy to get better service" talks
in this thread. I wonder if they key your record into their computer
database when you made the purchase and check it every time you call for
service. The dealer then says, a ha, this is that SOB who only gave me
100 profit, it's payback time.....or they are just try to "scare" us
into paying for more.
I mean, if the price you offer is about $500 lower than any price you've
ever heard of for the same model, and the dealer is willing to sell, why
not. For example, the telephone call price. They used to be 12c/min,
now they are as cheap as 4c if your make IP based network phone calls.
We get cheaper and better stuff due to competitions. It's good for all
the consumers, isn't it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jory Olson
>Most of these responses to my request for piano prices are stupid,
>non-real-world responses, and totally useless.
I'm sorry I wasted my time responding to your post.
Jory
Rick Clark
>Most of these responses to my request for piano prices are stupid,
>non-real-world responses, and totally useless.
So why bother arguing against them- as that would seem equally stupid
if you really believed your own statement. Or are you figuring you can
"beat" the contributors to this group the same way you "beat" the
dealer?
> We looked at middle of the line
>consoles from Yamaha, Kawai, and Baldwin. They all sounded the same to me
Interesting you would say this since you previously said:
>To my totally untrained ear, the Yamaha sounds more mellow(?) while the
>Baldwin sounds not as rich. Is there so much of a difference between brands
>that a non-musical ear can tell the difference?
RC
piano guy
--
piano guy----------------------------------------
we do the difficult immediately------------
the impossible takes until next thursday
Timothy Liang <t...@loralskynet.com> wrote in message news:7tqmdr$dm5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Ned Hamilton
Don't know why, just gives me pleasure.
(2) The Baldwin was used and untuned, not the new one referred to in my
newer post..
And what is this beat the dealer crap? What would you have paid the dealer
given my circumstances, i.e. a price last week of $5,300, a price this
weekend of $4,700, or the price I paid $3,800? If you wanted to be sure
that you didn't "beat" the dealer, what would you have paid? Are you one of
those stupid people who would have paid $5,300?
Rick Clark <piano...@spambotsmustdie.com> wrote in message
news:38010e59...@news.mindspring.com...
David Schmitt
Just remember the next time you call upon your sacred duty to point out
stupid things that it was *you* who spent almost $4,000 and you still
don't know whether you paid a fair price.
In article <bsnM3.497$R26...@news1.mco>,
Dave Zappa
> Just remember the next time you call upon your sacred duty to point out
> stupid things that it was *you* who spent almost $4,000 and you still
> don't know whether you paid a fair price.
I just wanted to chime in here that if Ned bought a Baldwin 660 for
about $3800 he paid going price. I also want to mention that the last
price sheet I have (2 years old) has Baldwin retailing the 660 at $4795.
I also wanted to say that insulting people who are trying to help is
somewhat rude.
LFletc6143
Fletch,
Another piano tuner