Young Chang opinions
Michael Chamberlain
uprights. The 46 1/2 "institutional" paino or the
48" Pramberger Signature model.
Sorry I dont know the actual model numbers.
There are 3 beginning pianists in my house, none
of whom know much about how a good piano should
feel. We just know our Everett with cracked pin block
and lousy regulation aint cutting it.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Don
For the same price you will pay for that new Young Chang pseudo-piano
I would rather have a nice, previously-owned Kawai, Yamaha, Baldwin or
Steinway...or any number of grands other than a Young (old) Chang.
Of course my negative opinion comes from playing two brand new Young
Chang grands professionally and 6 days/week over the past 4 1/2 years.
They were both crap, in my humble but most accurate opinion. I
wouldn't give a nickle for either one of them.
Two for Two has made me of the opinion stated above. If you want a
piece of nice looking furniture, get a young Chang. If you want a
real piano or musical instrument, get something else. Don't
short-change your kids.
D*
Recently described as:
"piano-bar-church music director-conductor-funeral pianist."
------------------------------------------------------------
www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
Remembering Shadow
July 1984 - November 13, 1997
A Tribute To The Sweetest, Most Perfect Dog In Heaven
pTooner
Michael Chamberlain wrote:
> I'm considering purchasing one of 2 Young Chang
> uprights. The 46 1/2 "institutional" paino or the
> 48" Pramberger Signature model.
> Sorry I dont know the actual model numbers.
>
> There are 3 beginning pianists in my house, none
> of whom know much about how a good piano should
> feel. We just know our Everett with cracked pin block
> and lousy regulation aint cutting it.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
If you avoid the chinese built models (ask the dealer) the you can't go
wrong with a Young Chang in the size range you mention. They are built
at least as well as anything else in the price range and better than
most. The new Pramberger models in particular get high marks from most
pianists and teachers. It has been observed that some folks in this
group feel that if you don't have a concert grand you don't have a
piano. I don't share that opinion. I have played professionally for 40
years as well as tuning etc. and I managed to learn on a turn of the
century upright. I don't have any idea how all these folks managed to
play only concert grands, but I was never that fortunate.
Almost any grand piano over 6 feet will be better than the uprights you
mention are any other uprights for that matter. Never the less, most
people learn on cheap verticals. As a matter of fact, most of the
pianos at a university school of music that I maintained until recently
were verticals.
Pardon the lengthy epistle, but I was irritated by the one-track
response by someone else.
Gerry
Don
I am just a humble piano player...or as some have called me...a
pianist.
I have played two brand new Young Chang (short) grands 6 days/week
over the past 4 1/2 years. They were both "not worth a flip." (as
my mother would say.)
The truth is they were both a piece of junk.
Atempting to make musical sounds come from them has made me of the
opinion stated above. If you want a piece of nice looking furniture,
buy a sofa. But if you want a PSO (piano shapped object), a Young
Chang will do the job. If you want a real piano or musical
instrument, get something else. Don't short-change your kids.
Don
Bob Cardone
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>Don wrote in message
><16BBF269057B95DA.5DBBB32B...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
>t>...
>
>
>>I am just a humble piano player...or as some have called me...a
>>pianist.
>>
>>I have played two brand new Young Chang (short) grands 6 days/week
>>over the past 4 1/2 years. They were both "not worth a flip." (as
>>my mother would say.)
>>
>>The truth is they were both a piece of junk.
>>
>>Atempting to make musical sounds come from them has made me of the
>>opinion stated above. If you want a piece of nice looking furniture,
>>buy a sofa. But if you want a PSO (piano shapped object), a Young
>>Chang will do the job. If you want a real piano or musical
>>instrument, get something else. Don't short-change your kids.
>>
>>Don
>>
>
>
Try a Boston Piano
Bob Cardone
Mark Mandell
Adding to the positive comment that was made in reference to the
Pramberger model, I would say this also applies to the tuning as well;
I have found the baby grand(model PG 150)almost completely free of false
beats in the upper treble section. And that is a welcome relief to most
any tuner so he/she can finally get off the "beating" track.
Mark Mandell
Don
>I don't go out of my way to recommend any Korean pianos but you could do A
>LOT worse in today's market than a NEW Young Chang . . . . a LOT worse!
>
>Your comments strike me as someone who would play only something along the
>quality of a Steinway, Grotrian, Bosendorfer, Bluthner, or a piano of that
>caliber. There is a market a step below that, you know!
>
>Glenn in Den.
>
>
>"I'm not really an expert, I just play one on the Internet"
>
>
You assume too much. As a vocational musician, I have to play
"whatever is there." But four years ago, I received a phone call from
a "friend" telling me that a particular fine-dining-room on the 20th
floor of a local hotel just bought a piano, a Young Chang, from her.
Well, they hired me to play it.
Up until that point I had no feelings for or againist YC pianos. I
had only played one sold by a dealer for whom I worked for a short
time many years ago. It was a 7' and I loved it. Of course, it sat
on the showroom floor and was NOT in actual use while I was there.
After playing the YC on the 20th floor for 3 1/2 years and having
continual problems with it, my opinion was that it was simply a piece
of crap.
Then, in january, 1998, I began playing piano at lunch three days/week
on a BRAND NEW (also) YC piano, actually the exact size piano.
When I ended my job around the first of December, the piano had THREE
notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
So far, I have played two brand new YC pianos and each was a piece of
crap. I think the only way you could do worse is with a Samick !
(Just relaying MY experiences. And we ALL have various experiences,
don't we?)
D*
PDtek
>notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
>
>So far, I have played two brand new YC pianos and each was a piece of
>crap.
I didn't hear any complaints made about the general sound and touch of the
piano so I will assume there were no problems there. Is it possible that the
piano received less than competent or timely service?
Dave Bunch Piano Service
& Certified PianoDisc Technician
members.aol.com/pdtek/piano.htm
Bob Cardone
When I see a YC piano on a gig, my first reaction is " Oh No! ". It
is usually a valid reaction. They seem to be OK when brand new and if
not played hard.
Bob Cardone
Dave Zappa
> After playing the YC on the 20th floor for 3 1/2 years and having
> continual problems with it, my opinion was that it was simply a piece
> of crap.
>
> Then, in january, 1998, I began playing piano at lunch three days/week
> on a BRAND NEW (also) YC piano, actually the exact size piano.
>
> When I ended my job around the first of December, the piano had THREE
> notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
>
Don:
Two things come to mind as to your Young Chang experiences. One, are
these pianos G150 or G157's per chance? Not that the G150/157 aren't
reasonable pianos, but they are small pianos. I believe smaller pianos
in hotel/resturant settings are "overplayed" only because a good pianist
has the ability to pound the crap out of a small piano in order to get
the desired tonal response. That's my long-shot reasoning.
More likely to be the culprit is a lack of service put forth by the
management of the establishments coupled with the use the designers
intended for a particular piano. Quite frankly, Korean pianos & the
cheapie Japanese pianos are not designed to be played 4-5 hours a day,
5-7 days a week. They are home pianos, plain and simple. Couple that
with a lack of service (pianos being played that much need attention
every week) and your complaints become warranted.
Anyway, hope all had a good Christmas, Rammadon, Festivus, Haunnaka,
whatever....
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Don
>>When I ended my job around the first of December, the piano had THREE
>>notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
>>
>>So far, I have played two brand new YC pianos and each was a piece of
>>crap.
>
>I didn't hear any complaints made about the general sound and touch of the
>piano so I will assume there were no problems there. Is it possible that the
>piano received less than competent or timely service?
>
The "sound" was what you would expect from a short grand. Both pianos
had problems staying in tune. Neither would hold it. Even small
variations in temp or humidity caused problems.
The action had similar problems on both pianos. Since the locations
were completely different and since unrelated piano techs worked on
the two pianos, I find it more difficult to blame poor techs on the
problem.
I simply think they were "bad" pianos.
Don
>Don wrote:
>
>> After playing the YC on the 20th floor for 3 1/2 years and having
>> continual problems with it, my opinion was that it was simply a piece
>> of crap.
>>
>> Then, in january, 1998, I began playing piano at lunch three days/week
>> on a BRAND NEW (also) YC piano, actually the exact size piano.
>>
>> When I ended my job around the first of December, the piano had THREE
>> notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
>>
>
>Don:
>
>Two things come to mind as to your Young Chang experiences. One, are
>these pianos G150 or G157's per chance? Not that the G150/157 aren't
>reasonable pianos, but they are small pianos. I believe smaller pianos
>in hotel/resturant settings are "overplayed" only because a good pianist
>has the ability to pound the crap out of a small piano in order to get
>the desired tonal response. That's my long-shot reasoning.
>
I was the ONLY pianist. I played one piano 4 hours 5 days/week.
However understand that it was in a "fine dining room" setting where I
played VERY soltly. I played SO softly but, because of the shape of
the room and the close proximity of the piano, I eventually had to
stuff the piano with pillows to get it soft enough...and I am a SOFT
piano player.
The other piano is only played 3 days/week for 2 hours. But it is in
an open foyer with hard walls. As tiny soft as I played, I eventually
had to "stuff" that piano also. I asked the owner if she actually
expected a quiet sound from a piano placed over a tile floor and
surronded by hard walls.
DUHHHH!
>More likely to be the culprit is a lack of service put forth by the
>management of the establishments coupled with the use the designers
>intended for a particular piano. Quite frankly, Korean pianos & the
>cheapie Japanese pianos are not designed to be played 4-5 hours a day,
>5-7 days a week. They are home pianos, plain and simple. Couple that
>with a lack of service (pianos being played that much need attention
>every week) and your complaints become warranted.
>
To quote myself from another post...
"The action had similar problems on both pianos. Since the locations
were completely different and since unrelated piano techs worked on
the two pianos, I find it more difficult to blame poor techs on the
problem.
I simply think they were "bad" pianos."
I considered the "tech" problem and changed techs on the first piano.
Then when I began playing the second YC, I found the same problems.
>Anyway, hope all had a good Christmas, Rammadon, Festivus, Haunnaka,
>whatever....
>
>Dave
>
And same to you!
Glenn L
(snip)
> Two things come to mind as to your Young Chang experiences. One, are
> these pianos G150 or G157's per chance? Not that the G150/157 aren't
> reasonable pianos, but they are small pianos. I believe smaller pianos
> in hotel/resturant settings are "overplayed" only because a good pianist
> has the ability to pound the crap out of a small piano in order to get
> the desired tonal response. That's my long-shot reasoning.
> Dave
>
> --
> Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
> digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
> Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
> opinions of my employer.
>
That leads me to ask about putting the player option in some of todays
pianos. I can't remember where I heard it but I heard you should only
turn a very high quality piano into a player because a cheaper quality
piano can't withstand the use going under the assumption it will be used
more since it can just play by itself. Is that any one else's opinion?
Makes me wonder about the 4 foot something inch Young Chang I saw at a
dealer once with the player option installed. I was considering getting
it for my Boston one of these decades but I'm too worried about "Open
Action Surgery" on my piano.
Glenn
PDtek
>pianos. I can't remember where I heard it but I heard you should only
>turn a very high quality piano into a player because a cheaper quality
>piano can't withstand the use
>Makes me wonder about the 4 foot something inch Young Chang I saw at a
>dealer once with the player option installed.
The "PianoDisc" piano that the MSR factory sells IS a Young Chang, now going
under the name of Knabe. I have installed over 100 of these players in all
kinds of pianos, mostly Young Changs, and have found no more service problems
with them than any other make. There are two problems that seem to be common to
YCs. One is the tendency for some of them to develope tight centers, which can
cause note failure. The other is bass hammers that bind on each other in the
bass section of the small grands. This is mostly a hammer travel problem. If a
tech knows what they are doing, neither of these should be a big problem.
Unfortunately, a lot don't and the piano gets the blame. Don't misunderstand,
there are makes far superior to YC, but YCs are far from crap.
As far as fear of installing a PianoDisc, you should not be.The proccess does
not interfere with the manual performance of the piano and virtually every
manufacturer has endorsed the product used in their pianos.
PDtek
>>> continual problems with it, my opinion was that it was simply a piece
>>> of crap.
The "PianoDisc" piano that the MSR factory sells IS a Young Chang, now going
under the name of Knabe. I have installed over 100 of these players in all
kinds of pianos, mostly Young Changs, and have found no more service problems
with them than any other make. There are two problems that seem to be common to
YCs. One is the tendency for some of them to develope tight centers, which can
cause note failure. The other is bass hammers that bind on each other in the
bass section of the small grands. This is mostly a hammer travel problem. If a
tech knows what they are doing, neither of these should be a big problem.
Unfortunately, a lot don't and the piano gets the blame. Don't misunderstand,
there are makes far superior to YC, but YCs are far from crap.
Dave Bunch Piano Service
Al Stevens
does
>not interfere with the manual performance of the piano and virtually every
>manufacturer has endorsed the product used in their pianos.
Except, of course, Yamaha. I read somewhere that the PianoDisc sustain pedal
is not graduated--that it has only off and on (0 and 127) settings to sense
and play back, whereas DisKlavier (sounds like an imported blended whiskey)
has 0 through 127. If true, doesn't that greatly reduce the effectiveness of
the PianoDisc's sustain pedal's nuances during playback. Fully down or fully
up is all you get?
Dave Zappa
>
> I love when someone attempts to excuse a ' piece of junk" piano by
> claiming that maybe it is played too much or too hard. If a piano
> cannot sustain few hours of playing a day, it is JUNK, pure and
> simple. If it needs a resident piano technician to keep it running,
> it's garbage.
I don't agree Bob. The reality is that some pianos are designed to be
played in a home environment by beginner to intermediate players.
>
> It would be similar to describing a new car that breaks down all the
> time, and the counter to that is maybe you are driving it too much..
> Maybe the pile of junk car is only capable of 10 miles a day and you
> are trying to drive it 20 miles a day..Give me a break!!!
Since you brought up the vehicle analogy: I have a 1998 Dodge Dakota V6
pickup - it hauls a jet ski around quite nicely. If I hooked a 20' boat
up to it I'd beat the crap out of the drivetrain and suspension in short
order. I could carry a mechanic around in the bed and it wouldn't help,
it's built to haul 2,000 lbs - not 10,000. A Yamaha GP1 is built for
the home hobby player, as is a Young Chang G150/157. It doesn't mean my
$14,000 pickup is junk and it certainly doesn't mean that a $9000 grand
is junk.
>
> If I had a nickel for every " Pile of Garbage" acoustic piano that I
> have played in clubs from New York to Miami to Los Angeles, I would be
> rich. The bad ones always out numbered the good ones.
>
> Sorry , but that is reality.
>
> Bob Cardone
>
Again, our perspectives differ somewhat. I am but a mere hobby player
who happens to also sell pianos. My opinion is that some pianos are not
designed to be used 40+ hours a week, no matter how much attention they
get. I feel smaller Korean grands fit that catagory. I wish more
salespeople felt this way - it would reduce the number of "junk" pianos
you have to play on.
I guess we may have to agree to disagree on this point.
Cheers!
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Bob Cardone
>Dave Zappa <dza...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>>Don wrote:
>>
>>> After playing the YC on the 20th floor for 3 1/2 years and having
>>> continual problems with it, my opinion was that it was simply a piece
>>> of crap.
>>>
>>> Then, in january, 1998, I began playing piano at lunch three days/week
>>> on a BRAND NEW (also) YC piano, actually the exact size piano.
>>>
>>> When I ended my job around the first of December, the piano had THREE
>>> notes not playing and still could not hold a tune.
>>>
>>
>>Don:
>>
>>Two things come to mind as to your Young Chang experiences. One, are
>>these pianos G150 or G157's per chance? Not that the G150/157 aren't
>>reasonable pianos, but they are small pianos. I believe smaller pianos
>>in hotel/resturant settings are "overplayed" only because a good pianist
>>has the ability to pound the crap out of a small piano in order to get
>>the desired tonal response. That's my long-shot reasoning.
>>
>I was the ONLY pianist. I played one piano 4 hours 5 days/week.
>However understand that it was in a "fine dining room" setting where I
>played VERY soltly. I played SO softly but, because of the shape of
>the room and the close proximity of the piano, I eventually had to
>stuff the piano with pillows to get it soft enough...and I am a SOFT
>piano player.
I love when someone attempts to excuse a ' piece of junk" piano by
claiming that maybe it is played too much or too hard. If a piano
cannot sustain few hours of playing a day, it is JUNK, pure and
simple. If it needs a resident piano technician to keep it running,
it's garbage.
It would be similar to describing a new car that breaks down all the
time, and the counter to that is maybe you are driving it too much..
Maybe the pile of junk car is only capable of 10 miles a day and you
are trying to drive it 20 miles a day..Give me a break!!!
If I had a nickel for every " Pile of Garbage" acoustic piano that I
have played in clubs from New York to Miami to Los Angeles, I would be
rich. The bad ones always out numbered the good ones.
Sorry , but that is reality.
Bob Cardone
>"The action had similar problems on both pianos. Since the locations
Bob Cardone
>Bob Cardone wrote:
>>
>> I love when someone attempts to excuse a ' piece of junk" piano by
>> claiming that maybe it is played too much or too hard. If a piano
>> cannot sustain few hours of playing a day, it is JUNK, pure and
>> simple. If it needs a resident piano technician to keep it running,
>> it's garbage.
>
>I don't agree Bob. The reality is that some pianos are designed to be
>played in a home environment by beginner to intermediate players.
>
>>
>> It would be similar to describing a new car that breaks down all the
>> time, and the counter to that is maybe you are driving it too much..
>> Maybe the pile of junk car is only capable of 10 miles a day and you
>> are trying to drive it 20 miles a day..Give me a break!!!
>
>Since you brought up the vehicle analogy: I have a 1998 Dodge Dakota V6
>pickup - it hauls a jet ski around quite nicely. If I hooked a 20' boat
>up to it I'd beat the crap out of the drivetrain and suspension in short
>order. I could carry a mechanic around in the bed and it wouldn't help,
>it's built to haul 2,000 lbs - not 10,000. A Yamaha GP1 is built for
>the home hobby player, as is a Young Chang G150/157. It doesn't mean my
>$14,000 pickup is junk and it certainly doesn't mean that a $9000 grand
>is junk.
>
Bad analogy. Playing a Piano in a quiet restaurant is more
like loading a aluminum canoe on the back of your Dodge Dakota,
shifting it into gear and having the clutch explode because of the
added weight of the Canoe.
A piano that can't hold up for 3-4 hours of playing in a restaurant
per night should have some kind of a placard screwed on the side by
the Dealer stating ( FOR DISPLAY ONLY - Not intended for actual use )
before it is sold. We are so eager today to excuse shoddy
workmanship, poor design, and planned obsolescence even when it costs
thousands of dollars. Heaven forbid that the manufacturer should be
held accountable for making the pile of junk.
Bob Cardone
Don
>Bob Cardone wrote:
>>
>> I love when someone attempts to excuse a ' piece of junk" piano by
>> claiming that maybe it is played too much or too hard. If a piano
>> cannot sustain few hours of playing a day, it is JUNK, pure and
>> simple. If it needs a resident piano technician to keep it running,
>> it's garbage.
>
>I don't agree Bob. The reality is that some pianos are designed to be
>played in a home environment by beginner to intermediate players.
>
>>
>> It would be similar to describing a new car that breaks down all the
>> time, and the counter to that is maybe you are driving it too much..
>> Maybe the pile of junk car is only capable of 10 miles a day and you
>> are trying to drive it 20 miles a day..Give me a break!!!
>
>Since you brought up the vehicle analogy: I have a 1998 Dodge Dakota V6
>pickup - it hauls a jet ski around quite nicely. If I hooked a 20' boat
>up to it I'd beat the crap out of the drivetrain and suspension in short
>order. I could carry a mechanic around in the bed and it wouldn't help,
>it's built to haul 2,000 lbs - not 10,000. A Yamaha GP1 is built for
>the home hobby player, as is a Young Chang G150/157. It doesn't mean my
>$14,000 pickup is junk and it certainly doesn't mean that a $9000 grand
>is junk.
>
>>
>> If I had a nickel for every " Pile of Garbage" acoustic piano that I
>> have played in clubs from New York to Miami to Los Angeles, I would be
>> rich. The bad ones always out numbered the good ones.
>>
>> Sorry , but that is reality.
>>
>> Bob Cardone
>>
>
>Again, our perspectives differ somewhat. I am but a mere hobby player
>who happens to also sell pianos. My opinion is that some pianos are not
>designed to be used 40+ hours a week, no matter how much attention they
>get. I feel smaller Korean grands fit that catagory. I wish more
>salespeople felt this way - it would reduce the number of "junk" pianos
>you have to play on.
>
>I guess we may have to agree to disagree on this point.
>
>Cheers!
>Dave
>
>--
Ya know, Dave...
A couple of years into that first YC gig, I was in the music store
speaking with the woman ( a friend ) who sold the YC to the restaurant
in the Sheraton...the one on the 20th floor.
When I mentioned the trouble I was having with that piano, she lowered
her head and said something about that piano NOT being the "right
piano" for that dinning room.
I replied, "Then WHY did you sell it to them?"
Her comment was, "That was all they wanted to spend but it's not the
right piano."
Again I said, "Why did you sell it to them?"
And she said, "THAT is all thay wanted to spend."
My personal interpretation...
"I will sell somebody a piece of junk to get the sale rather than
LOOSE the sale by telling them the truth."
And the pianist, whomever he is, has to suffer the conquences.
But, as a performing musician who plays piano, I have to play worse
pianos that THAT one. In fact, I am currently playing a short grand
which was tuned just when it arrived on the Mayflower. It hasn't been
tuned since.
But I am used to it.
Don
>Dave Zappa <dza...@qni.com> wrote:
>
>>Bob Cardone wrote:
>>>
>>> I love when someone attempts to excuse a ' piece of junk" piano by
>>> claiming that maybe it is played too much or too hard. If a piano
>>> cannot sustain few hours of playing a day, it is JUNK, pure and
>>> simple. If it needs a resident piano technician to keep it running,
>>> it's garbage.
>>
>>I don't agree Bob. The reality is that some pianos are designed to be
>>played in a home environment by beginner to intermediate players.
>>
>>>
>>> It would be similar to describing a new car that breaks down all the
>>> time, and the counter to that is maybe you are driving it too much..
>>> Maybe the pile of junk car is only capable of 10 miles a day and you
>>> are trying to drive it 20 miles a day..Give me a break!!!
>>
>>Since you brought up the vehicle analogy: I have a 1998 Dodge Dakota V6
>>pickup - it hauls a jet ski around quite nicely. If I hooked a 20' boat
>>up to it I'd beat the crap out of the drivetrain and suspension in short
>>order. I could carry a mechanic around in the bed and it wouldn't help,
>>it's built to haul 2,000 lbs - not 10,000. A Yamaha GP1 is built for
>>the home hobby player, as is a Young Chang G150/157. It doesn't mean my
>>$14,000 pickup is junk and it certainly doesn't mean that a $9000 grand
>>is junk.
>>
>
>Bad analogy. Playing a Piano in a quiet restaurant is more
>like loading a aluminum canoe on the back of your Dodge Dakota,
>shifting it into gear and having the clutch explode because of the
>added weight of the Canoe.
>
> A piano that can't hold up for 3-4 hours of playing in a restaurant
>per night should have some kind of a placard screwed on the side by
>the Dealer stating ( FOR DISPLAY ONLY - Not intended for actual use )
>before it is sold. We are so eager today to excuse shoddy
>workmanship, poor design, and planned obsolescence even when it costs
>thousands of dollars. Heaven forbid that the manufacturer should be
>held accountable for making the pile of junk.
>
>
>Bob Cardone
I like the idea of the placard screwed on the side. It would be
appropriate for both Young Changs.
As far as your comment about excusing "shoddy workmanship, poor
design, and planned obsolescence even when it costs thousands of
dollars. Heaven forbid that the manufacturer should be held
accountable for making the pile of junk," why do you think we drive
Japanese/European autos, watch TVs made in Japan and wear clothes made
in China?
No wonder we have to play pianos which will NOT hold up under normal
use.
Just a few personal comments.
Don
Dave Zappa
>
> Bad analogy. Playing a Piano in a quiet restaurant is more
> like loading a aluminum canoe on the back of your Dodge Dakota,
> shifting it into gear and having the clutch explode because of the
> added weight of the Canoe.
>
You're the one that brought up the automobile analogy, not me.
> A piano that can't hold up for 3-4 hours of playing in a restaurant
> per night should have some kind of a placard screwed on the side by
> the Dealer stating ( FOR DISPLAY ONLY - Not intended for actual use )
> before it is sold. We are so eager today to excuse shoddy
> workmanship, poor design, and planned obsolescence even when it costs
> thousands of dollars. Heaven forbid that the manufacturer should be
> held accountable for making the pile of junk.
>
And again I disagree. Multiply that 3-4 hours per night by 6 nights and
some pianos are not engineered to handle it. If the placard says
anything it should be "WARNING: If you own a hotel, resturant or
nightclub unclench that noose you have around your piano budget and buy
something that's going to last. Would you expect a home blender to make
40 marguaritas a night?"
So, we agree to disagree.
Dave Zappa
>
> When I mentioned the trouble I was having with that piano, she lowered
> her head and said something about that piano NOT being the "right
> piano" for that dinning room.
>
> I replied, "Then WHY did you sell it to them?"
>
> Her comment was, "That was all they wanted to spend but it's not the
> right piano."
>
> Again I said, "Why did you sell it to them?"
>
> And she said, "THAT is all thay wanted to spend."
>
> My personal interpretation...
>
> "I will sell somebody a piece of junk to get the sale rather than
> LOOSE the sale by telling them the truth."
>
How about this personal interpretation. "I DID tell them it wasn't the
right piano, but it had that bell shape, & was really shiney..." I
can't believe any salesperson with knowledge of pianos and high ethical
standards wouldn't point out that a Young Chang is not a piano to be
used in high-use institutional settings. We're very quick to blame the
dealer here when (from many personal experiences) after trying to
persuade a buyer that a piano isn't right for their situation they STILL
BUY IT. AMAZING! isn't it?
Dave Zappa
Don
>Don wrote:
>>
>> When I mentioned the trouble I was having with that piano, she lowered
>> her head and said something about that piano NOT being the "right
>> piano" for that dinning room.
>>
>> I replied, "Then WHY did you sell it to them?"
>>
>> Her comment was, "That was all they wanted to spend but it's not the
>> right piano."
>>
>> Again I said, "Why did you sell it to them?"
>>
>> And she said, "THAT is all thay wanted to spend."
>>
>> My personal interpretation...
>>
>> "I will sell somebody a piece of junk to get the sale rather than
>> LOOSE the sale by telling them the truth."
>>
>
>How about this personal interpretation. "I DID tell them it wasn't the
>right piano, but it had that bell shape, & was really shiney..." I
>can't believe any salesperson with knowledge of pianos and high ethical
>standards wouldn't point out that a Young Chang is not a piano to be
>used in high-use institutional settings. We're very quick to blame the
>dealer here when (from many personal experiences) after trying to
>persuade a buyer that a piano isn't right for their situation they STILL
>BUY IT. AMAZING! isn't it?
>
>Dave
>
The problem is that she did NOT tell them it was the wrong piano. She
just sold it to them anyway. In fact, she sold the pianos at BOTH
locations.
I know that the Kawai dealer was also trying for that first sale but
could not get the price as low. It's all $$$.
I have known this lady for over ten years. But I no longer refer
their store or those salespeople to anyone. Too bad because I had a
stack of her business cards and had given her a few sales over the
years.
D*
l...@epix.net
dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com wrote:
(snip)
> Since you brought up the vehicle analogy: I have a 1998 Dodge Dakota V6
> pickup - it hauls a jet ski around quite nicely. If I hooked a 20' boat
> up to it I'd beat the crap out of the drivetrain and suspension in short
> order. (snip)
> Cheers!
> Dave
New Piano-Buying Rule: DON'T BUY when. . .
You begin to hear automotive anologies that
attempt to justify a piano's shortcomings.
The most common justification I hear for buying
Young Changs (usually by dealers) is that they
represent a price point for consumers who
otherwise would not be able to own a car. . . oops. .
. PIANO. . .
Confucius Say: To drive to mall: OK to buy Kia, but
to make music: NOT OK to buy Young Chang. . .
George
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
pTooner
Don wrote:
> >
> >--
> Ya know, Dave...
>
> A couple of years into that first YC gig, I was in the music store
> speaking with the woman ( a friend ) who sold the YC to the restaurant
> in the Sheraton...the one on the 20th floor.
>
> When I mentioned the trouble I was having with that piano, she lowered
> her head and said something about that piano NOT being the "right
> piano" for that dinning room.
>
> I replied, "Then WHY did you sell it to them?"
>
> Her comment was, "That was all they wanted to spend but it's not the
> right piano."
>
> Again I said, "Why did you sell it to them?"
>
> And she said, "THAT is all thay wanted to spend."
>
> My personal interpretation...
>
> "I will sell somebody a piece of junk to get the sale rather than
> LOOSE the sale by telling them the truth."
and allow someone else to sell them something worse.
>
>
> And the pianist, whomever he is, has to suffer the conquences.
>
> But, as a performing musician who plays piano, I have to play worse
> pianos that THAT one. In fact, I am currently playing a short grand
> which was tuned just when it arrived on the Mayflower. It hasn't been
> tuned since.
>
> But I am used to it.
Bob Cardone would argue with your last paragraph. He believes that nothing
is worse than a YC. I believe that both of you need to establish some sort
of arrangement with a local technician. If I were in your area I would
happily give you a heavily discounted rate along with priority attention in
return for all the work you could refer to me. I don't have you guys'
problems because I am a tech as well as a performer. I evaluate the
instrument beforehand and do any necessary work before the gig. I find the
venues are usually happy to pay the discounted rate I give them (usually,
sometimes you just have to turn down a gig if they won't provide a useable
instrument) and it may get me more business.
Gerry
Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!
l...@epix.net
dza...@SPAMTHISqni.com wrote:
We're very quick to blame the dealer here when
(from many personal experiences) after trying to
persuade a buyer that a piano isn't right for their
situation they STILL BUY IT. AMAZING! isn't it?
>
> Dave
You could stop selling Young Changs ;-)
l...@epix.net
"Michael Chamberlain" <mk...@chorus.net>
wrote:
We just know our Everett with cracked pin block
and lousy regulation aint cutting it.
You already have a good idea of what to expect
from the Young Changs. Don't Buy.
Glenn L
> just sold it to them anyway. In fact, she sold the pianos at BOTH
> locations.
>
> I know that the Kawai dealer was also trying for that first sale but
> could not get the price as low. It's all $$$.
I don't want to respark the saleperson debate but I have not encountered
a piano salesperson that was interested in what I needed. When I visit
a piano store I have an idea of what I want to try and they usually try
to push me to buy it. They don't say "Gee, with your playing style you
may like this one or if you think that tone is to bright or too mellow
why don't you try this". They just want to get you to buy something.
It seems to them that if you played it you must like it and want to buy
it. No need to look around. Our tech will change anything you didn't
like.
As far as YC goes, when my parents took me shopping for my last piano
about 20 years ago I looked at Young Chang. I remember being
unimpressed (but what did I know then) and played a brand new YC console
and a somewhat dismantled older Yamaha console side by side in the store
and liked the Yamaha much better. After shopping around we bought the
Kawai and I never regretted that piano. I even liked it better than a
lot of grands I played through the years when going to some of those
warehouse sales.
Luckily I mainly play my own piano which I keep up as best I can and
don't have to suffer through a gig with a bad piano. Or maybe that
should be other people don't have to suffer hearing me play a gig even
with a good piano. Either way I can understand how angry you would get
at having a piece of crap (even if it's only your opinion) to play. I
know one of the reasons I play mine so much is because I like it; And
because I go through withdraw if I don't get to play it!
Glenn
Yogi Panda
ask:
What exactly are the design differences between a heavy duty and a light
duty piano?
How much are those design differences worth in term of dollars? Quoting a
(naturally biased) YC dealer: you pay a 10 grands premium for a Yamaha and a
20 grands premium or more for a Steinway. What for? For a brand name only?
Or for those yet to be named design differences?
Yogi
Don
I have been in Dallas almost 16 years. Over that time I HAVE
developed relationships with SEVERAL piano techs. I HAVE to...it is
my business. There are three I use most of the time.
But when the piano is built poorly, even three of the best can't
override bad workmanship!
>
>Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!
>
Good tag.
Bennett Pearce
number of years. I have had no major problems with regular play and
maintenance.With each tuning, I ask the tech to look it over as closely as
possible because I've been a little paranoid with all the negative
comments I read on this NG. So far no major problems have been identified.
It holds a tuning well.
I'm sure I'll upgrade one day but I will have gotten my moneys worth out
of this piano.
pTooner
l...@epix.net wrote:
> In article <75lp6r$re9$1...@news.itis.com>,
> "Michael Chamberlain" <mk...@chorus.net>
> wrote:
>
> We just know our Everett with cracked pin block
> and lousy regulation aint cutting it.
>
> You already have a good idea of what to expect
> from the Young Changs. Don't Buy.
>
> George
>
>
I can't believe anyone would seriously consider buying anything less than a
Steinway. Especially those imported piano wannabes. Just think, some
people even try to justify their purchase by claiming they can't afford a
mere $35k. I can only say, if you can't afford a Steinway, you can't
afford a piano at all.
Gerry
We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then things get worse.
IBruton
>afford a piano at all.
>
>Gerry
>
It's hard to tell, but i hope that is sarcasm i hear.
Loving my yamaha c3 everyminute,
Isaac B.
Raleigh/Durham
VOCE88
>> her head and said something about that piano NOT being the "right
>> piano" for that dinning room.
>>
>> I replied, "Then WHY did you sell it to them?"
>>
>> Her comment was, "That was all they wanted to spend but it's not the
>> right piano."
>>
>> Again I said, "Why did you sell it to them?"
>>
>> And she said, "THAT is all thay wanted to spend."
>>
>> My personal interpretation...
>>
>> "I will sell somebody a piece of junk to get the sale rather than
>> LOOSE the sale by telling them the truth."
>>
>
>right piano, but it had that bell shape, & was really shiney..." I
>can't believe any salesperson with knowledge of pianos and high ethical
>standards wouldn't point out that a Young Chang is not a piano to be
>dealer here when (from many personal experiences) after trying to
>persuade a buyer that a piano isn't right for their situation they STILL
>BUY IT. AMAZING! isn't it?
>
>Dave
Good observation, Dave. BTW, folks, lets not be totally myopic here and focus
only on YC's. The name could be Yamaha or Kawai or Samick etc. just as easily.
I know of a big name jazz venue in Philly ( Zanzibar Blue) that upon opening
bought a GH 1 THAT I TOLD THE OWNER NOT TO BUY (remember that Rob?) It held up
less than 6 months. It sounded like a tin can and they had broken over 2 dozen
strings in that time. They have since bought several pianos from me that DID
hold up - a Baldwin L, a Steinway L - they currently only use 1 piano - a Mason
& Hamlin BB.
The moral of the story is - when the manufacturer says that GH stands for Grand
for the Home - it shouldn't be in a club.
While we are at it - a PG 185 YC has held up very well in institutional
situations.
Just my 2 cents
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
1 800 394 1117
VOCE88
>a piano salesperson that was interested in what I needed. When I visit
>a piano store I have an idea of what I want to try and they usually try
>to push me to buy it. They don't say "Gee, with your playing style you
>may like this one or if you think that tone is to bright or too mellow
>why don't you try this"
> They just want to get you to buy something.
>It seems to them that if you played it you must like it and want to buy
>it. No need to look around. Our tech will change anything you didn't
>like.
I gotta tell you, Glenn - If I ever saw a salesperson that I trained treat a
customer like that - I would either retrain them or fire them.
But that is not the way all companies do business.
BTW, Cunningham was just named "Best Place To Buy A Piano" by Phillypaper. (A
Regional Weekly Magazine)
I guess old fashioned service ain't that old fashioned.
Don
When I was around 12 years old my folks bought me a Sears organ. I am
sure I could find a nice Sears piano and put it on the payment plan.
Then we could buy a nice Sears house and drive up in our Sears car.
<GR>
Gerald Geddings
Don wrote:
> ibr...@aol.com (IBruton) wrote:
>
> >>I can only say, if you can't afford a Steinway, you can't
> >>afford a piano at all.
> >>
> >>Gerry
> >>
> >
> >It's hard to tell, but i hope that is sarcasm i hear.
> >
> >Loving my yamaha c3 everyminute,
> >Isaac B.
> >Raleigh/Durham
>
> When I was around 12 years old my folks bought me a Sears organ. I am
> sure I could find a nice Sears piano and put it on the payment plan.
>
> Then we could buy a nice Sears house and drive up in our Sears car.
>
> <GR>
>
> D*
>
Now you know that ain't so! Sears cars were called "Allstate", not
Sears. They were built by Henry J and are fairly desireable now. Didn't
they also sell Vespa scooters under the Allstate name one time?
Gerry
PS I quit putting ;-)'s --- Let em guess!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Dave Zappa
> I can only say, if you can't afford a Steinway, you can't
> afford a piano at all.
>
Speaking from a dealer standpoint that represents Steinway, I agree with
you 110% :-)
BIGBO...@webtv.net
device that in layman's terms uses light transmitted through a piece of
plastic impregnated with a dot-matrix arrangement that gradually gets
darker the farther the pedal is pressed thus allowing the computer to
measure the differances in light travelling through thiis "GRAY SCALE"
device. this doesnt afect the manual playing of the pedal but aids in
recording a more accurate pedal operation. There are many benefits to
this including the ability of fine pianists to reproduce "partial
pedalling" with more accuracy than a simple on-off" arrangement as
provided in the "PianoDisc" and other third party addons. Additionally,
the Yamaha sustain Solenoid has a much more sophisticated regulation
procedure tha only Yamaha trained technicians like myself can really
understand. The problem with any of the modern player piano systems lies
in findingpiano technicians who understand electronics as well as the
old-fashioned mechanics of pianos. Sam Levite piano tech Indianapolis,
IN
317+895-0183
sjle...@webtv.net
Don
>
>
>Don wrote:
>
>> ibr...@aol.com (IBruton) wrote:
>>
>> >>I can only say, if you can't afford a Steinway, you can't
>> >>afford a piano at all.
>> >>
>> >>Gerry
>> >>
>> >
>> >It's hard to tell, but i hope that is sarcasm i hear.
>> >
>> >Loving my yamaha c3 everyminute,
>> >Isaac B.
>> >Raleigh/Durham
>>
>> When I was around 12 years old my folks bought me a Sears organ. I am
>> sure I could find a nice Sears piano and put it on the payment plan.
>>
>> Then we could buy a nice Sears house and drive up in our Sears car.
>>
>> <GR>
>>
>> D*
>>
>
>Now you know that ain't so! Sears cars were called "Allstate", not
>Sears. They were built by Henry J and are fairly desireable now. Didn't
>they also sell Vespa scooters under the Allstate name one time?
>
>Gerry
>PS I quit putting ;-)'s --- Let em guess!
>
>Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
>
>
My organ is a "Silvertone." It is actually a Thomas Organ. They did
sellpianos but that was before my time. I don't know who made them.
Bob Cardone
>Bob Cardone wrote:
>>
>> Bad analogy. Playing a Piano in a quiet restaurant is more
>> like loading a aluminum canoe on the back of your Dodge Dakota,
>> shifting it into gear and having the clutch explode because of the
>> added weight of the Canoe.
>>
>
>You're the one that brought up the automobile analogy, not me.
>
Yes, but mine made sense, your's didn't.
>> A piano that can't hold up for 3-4 hours of playing in a restaurant
>> per night should have some kind of a placard screwed on the side by
>> the Dealer stating ( FOR DISPLAY ONLY - Not intended for actual use )
>> before it is sold. We are so eager today to excuse shoddy
>> workmanship, poor design, and planned obsolescence even when it costs
>> thousands of dollars. Heaven forbid that the manufacturer should be
>> held accountable for making the pile of junk.
>>
>
>And again I disagree. Multiply that 3-4 hours per night by 6 nights and
>some pianos are not engineered to handle it. If the placard says
>anything it should be "WARNING: If you own a hotel, resturant or
>nightclub unclench that noose you have around your piano budget and buy
>something that's going to last. Would you expect a home blender to make
>40 marguaritas a night?"
So if I am studying the piano and practice lets say 3 hours a day (
and I did this as a teenager on a grand piano that my father paid
$600 for and it stayed in tune and every note played) which would be
more playing than a 4 hour gig in a restaurant, what you are saying is
that the Young Ching wouldn't be able to withstand that kind of
abuse,. correct?
OK, then what limit would you set on the Ying Chung?, 2 hours a day,
15 minutes a day, what would you consider "normal playing" versus
industrial application??
Possibly they could make a Yong Chunk Heavy Duty Model that would be
guaranteed for at least a 6 hour gig in a nightclub 6 nights a week>
<G>
Like I said, it's still a piece of junk
Bob Cardone
Lily Kinkade
buy a lottery ticket...
pTooner
Bob Cardone wrote:
> Like I said, it's still a piece of junk
>
> Bob Cardone
>
>
Just curious, Bob, where do you draw this line between piano and junk? For
instance, of the two series of Yamaha grands, which side of the line does
each fall? How about the Kawai's? Schimmel's? Samick's? M&H? The various
Steinway models? I am really curious as to how you see this.
Gerry
pTooner
Dave Zappa wrote:
> pTooner wrote:
> > I can only say, if you can't afford a Steinway, you can't
> > afford a piano at all.
> >
>
> Speaking from a dealer standpoint that represents Steinway, I agree with
> you 110% :-)
Actually, Dave, I was just taking the "Young Chang is Junk" thread to it's
obvious conclusion.
Gerry
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
Michael Chamberlain
Wow...I didn't expect such a long thread.
I appreciate the volumes of input and the time
invested ...but I still dont have any info regarding how those who play
feel about the touch and sound of Young Chang pianos.
Reliability and enjoyability are seldom related in
any consumer product that's affordable to most people. I own Sony TV's
despite the fact every one
I've owned has needed repair shortly after the warrantee was out....a pain
in
the ass, but I ENJOY
watching a Sony more than any other tube.
I collect old German wines that are notorious for
having corks that fail before the wine is ready, but
I ENJOY those wines the most. I used to race bikes
with Campy components cuz I loved the feel despite
the fact they needed adjusting before every ride.
A brand new 48" Pramberger Young Chang will
cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
pTooner
BIGBO...@webtv.net wrote:
I can't tell whether you are serious are not. Were you perhaps drinking a
bit when you wrote this condescending epistle? I wonder if you'd be shocked
to discover that at least one of the techs who reads this group has an MS in
electronic engineering from FSU?
Gerry
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
John S. Gray
;-)
IBruton
>cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
>a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
>good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
>sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
>to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
look for a used Yamaha U1...if you look real hard, you just might find one. But
it will take a lot of searching. Also, try some of the Yamaha console models.
Isaac B.
pTooner
Michael Chamberlain wrote:
> Wow...I didn't expect such a long thread.
> I appreciate the volumes of input and the time
> invested ...but I still dont have any info regarding how those who play
> feel about the touch and sound of Young Chang pianos.
> Reliability and enjoyability are seldom related in
> any consumer product that's affordable to most people. I own Sony TV's
> despite the fact every one
> I've owned has needed repair shortly after the warrantee was out....a pain
> in
> the ass, but I ENJOY
> watching a Sony more than any other tube.
> I collect old German wines that are notorious for
> having corks that fail before the wine is ready, but
> I ENJOY those wines the most. I used to race bikes
> with Campy components cuz I loved the feel despite
> the fact they needed adjusting before every ride.
>
> A brand new 48" Pramberger Young Chang will
> cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
> a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
> good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
> sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
> to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
I suspect we could get along, Mike, although I prefer Italian wines. I
thought all bikes had to be adjusted before every ride. Besides, there is
nothing else except campy components. Having said all that, I don't think you
can do better for the money than a korean built Young Chang. Just be sure
that they aren't showing you a chinese model, that price sounds a bit too
low. There are several Samick's that are about equal, but I don't know the
model numbers. Nothing Japanese or American in that price range comes even
close. I don't sell anything, that's my opinion as a player and a
technician. By the way, my MGB still has the top down in the garage although
it's 28 degrees outside.
Gerry
"More hay, Trigger?" "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed!"
BIGBO...@webtv.net
I wonder if you'd be shocked to discover that at least one of the techs
who reads this group has an MS in electronic engineering from FSU?
Gerry
******************************************************
Huh, Gee "GER", I don't remember saying anything about your
qualifications? Let's look, shall we?
.........................................................................
There are many benefits to this including the ability of fine pianists
to reproduce "partial pedalling" with more accuracy than a simple
on-off" arrangement as provided in the "PianoDisc" and other third party
addons. Additionally, the Yamaha sustain Solenoid has a much more
sophisticated regulation procedure tha only Yamaha trained technicians
like myself can really understand. The problem with any of the modern
player piano systems lies in findingpiano technicians who understand
electronics as well as the old-fashioned mechanics of pianos.
............................................................................
Hmmm, nope! Nothing against YOU in there!
Oh, I get it, you must be of such insecurity to think I was saying YOU
personally are one of those who doesn't understand the Yamaha system.
Well, sir, I am not an alcoholic nor am I unaware of the many QUALIFIED
technicians out there! They are merely in short supply. Do not be so
sensitive and GROW UP!
Yogi Panda
>> cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
>> a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
>> good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
>> sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
>> to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
>that they aren't showing you a chinese model, that price sounds a bit too
Are there any Pramberger Young Changs that are built in China?
Yogi
r l reid
Having shopped and bought at Cunningham I can testify to that. One of
Rich's salespeople did exactly what the original poster said a salesman
never does - clearly informed me of the relative benefits of each piano
I was considering relative to my tastes and what I was playing, and then
left me alone to play both all afternoon. I'm still very pleased with
my purchase and can attest that Cunningham is a class act. (I also
have personal knowledge that Faust, near me, is also class...they just
didn't carry the kind of piano I needed. They told me so themselves!)
--
r l reid r...@panix.com
VOCE88
>>Sears. They were built by Henry J and are fairly desireable now. Didn't
>>they also sell Vespa scooters under the Allstate name one time?
>>
>>Gerry
>>PS I quit putting ;-)'s --- Let em guess!
>>
>>Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
>>
>>
>My organ is a "Silvertone." It is actually a Thomas Organ. They did
>sellpianos but that was before my time. I don't know who made them.
They were the Beckwith pianos and Sears sold them in 1938 for 169.00 (for
upright)
Al Panteleone, a friend and perhaps the most consistent action regulatorI have
ever known, collects these old ads. I should scan some. Youd all get a kick out
of them.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham piano Co
1 800 394 1117
Bob Cardone
Every Yank Chunk, whoops excuse, Young Chang , I have ever played
should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk. I have had keys that
stick, don't work, make noise, out of tune etc... Never have I played
one that worked properly. Kind of leaves you with a bad impression.
Other than that, I guess they are nice looking pianos <g>
Bob Cardone
Bob Cardone
>
>Wow...I didn't expect such a long thread.
>I appreciate the volumes of input and the time
>invested ...but I still dont have any info regarding how those who play
>feel about the touch and sound of Young Chang pianos.
>Reliability and enjoyability are seldom related in
>any consumer product that's affordable to most people. I own Sony TV's
>despite the fact every one
>I've owned has needed repair shortly after the warrantee was out....a pain
>in
>the ass, but I ENJOY
>watching a Sony more than any other tube.
>I collect old German wines that are notorious for
>having corks that fail before the wine is ready, but
>I ENJOY those wines the most. I used to race bikes
>with Campy components cuz I loved the feel despite
>the fact they needed adjusting before every ride.
>
>A brand new 48" Pramberger Young Chang will
>cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
>a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
>good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
>sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
>to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
>
>
If you don't mind that piano tuner taking up residence in your home so
that he can be on 24 hour standby, then you will probably love a Young
Chang. Besides, the tuner can keep your MG mechanic company <G>
Bob Cardone
PDtek
>should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
>at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk.
Good Lord, Bob, were you beaten by a Young Chang as a child? Did one fall on
your dog? As a PianoDisc technician that has serviced over a hundred of these
pianos (they are the piano that the PianoDisc factory sells with their player
systems) I have never experienced the ongoing problems with any of them that
have seem to have driven you over the brink. Any time that a player system is
installed in a piano, it's like turning the family car into a taxi cab. (Theres
that car metaphor again) Players usually get a lot more abuse than a regular
piano. If YCs were as bad as you say, I wouldn't have time to do anything but
try to keep up on repairs. Truth is, I can't remember the last service call on
a Young Chang. It's been at least six months. If they are prepped by a
technician that understands the potential problem areas of the YC (and every
make has their own "problem areas") then there should not be the ongoing
problems that you seem to experience. I still contend that there too many techs
out there that DON'T know how to service these pianos and that THAT is the
problem you have. No, I don't have stock in the company, and no, Young Changs
are not my favorite piano, but ther must be a reason the hundred + YCs under my
care are holding up much better than the ones you have encountered.
Dave Bunch Piano Service
& Certified PianoDisc Technician
members.aol.com/pdtek/piano.htm
pTooner
Bob Cardone wrote:
> pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Bob Cardone wrote:
> >
> >> Like I said, it's still a piece of junk
> >>
> >> Bob Cardone
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Just curious, Bob, where do you draw this line between piano and junk? For
> >instance, of the two series of Yamaha grands, which side of the line does
> >each fall? How about the Kawai's? Schimmel's? Samick's? M&H? The various
> >Steinway models? I am really curious as to how you see this.
> >
> >Gerry
> >
>
> Every Yank Chunk, whoops excuse, Young Chang , I have ever played
> should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
> at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk. I have had keys that
> stick, don't work, make noise, out of tune etc... Never have I played
> one that worked properly. Kind of leaves you with a bad impression.
>
> Other than that, I guess they are nice looking pianos <g>
>
> Bob Cardone
I know, Bob, but does this just apply to Young Chang or to some or most other
brands as well? I'm not here to argue the point, I'm just trying to get a feel
for where you are coming from on this subject that you obviously feel very
strongly about. Personnally I have some rather negative feelings about Yamaha,
but not to the extent that you seem to feel about Young Chang.
Gerry
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
pTooner
BIGBO...@webtv.net wrote:
> Gerry writes:
> I wonder if you'd be shocked to discover that at least one of the techs
> who reads this group has an MS in electronic engineering from FSU?
> Gerry
>
> ******************************************************
> Huh, Gee "GER", I don't remember saying anything about your
> qualifications? Let's look, shall we?
> .........................................................................
> Additionally, the Yamaha sustain Solenoid has a much more
> sophisticated regulation procedure tha only Yamaha trained technicians
> like myself can really understand.
Well, Gee, "BIGBOY", that doesn't strike you as being a bit condescending?
> The problem with any of the modern
> player piano systems lies in findingpiano technicians who understand
> electronics as well as the old-fashioned mechanics of pianos.
> ............................................................................
> Hmmm, nope! Nothing against YOU in there!
Nope, just a slam at "old fashioned" techs.
>
> Oh, I get it, you must be of such insecurity to think I was saying YOU
> personally are one of those who doesn't understand the Yamaha system.
> Well, sir, I am not an alcoholic nor am I unaware of the many QUALIFIED
> technicians out there! They are merely in short supply. Do not be so
> sensitive and GROW UP!
Well, I don't think I made any mention of your personal habits; nor am I
interested in them. On the other hand, I find no shortage of "QUALIFIED"
technicians out there. Your remarks are typical of the occasional visitors to
this group who love to post but never take the time to read what went before.
pTooner
Yogi Panda wrote:
> >> A brand new 48" Pramberger Young Chang will
> >> cost me about $3000....can anybody recommend
> >> a piano, new or used, that sounds and feels as
> >> good for the money? This is not a dare...I'm not
> >> sold on the piano...just haven't played long enough
> >> to know what a piano should sound or feel like.
> >can do better for the money than a korean built Young Chang. Just be sure
> >that they aren't showing you a chinese model, that price sounds a bit too
>
> Are there any Pramberger Young Changs that are built in China?
>
> Yogi
Both the Pramberger models and the chinese models are relatively new and their
models seem to change almost daily. The short answer is, I don't know. Ask
the salesman or look inside the top cover for some evidence of origin. The
Pramberger models just designate the new designs since Pramberger joined the
company. I haven't personnally noticed any major changes, but since I don't
sell them I may not be current.
Gerry
I wouldn't be caught dead with a necrophiliac.
Don
>pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Bob Cardone wrote:
>>
>>> Like I said, it's still a piece of junk
>>>
>>> Bob Cardone
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Just curious, Bob, where do you draw this line between piano and junk? For
>>instance, of the two series of Yamaha grands, which side of the line does
>>each fall? How about the Kawai's? Schimmel's? Samick's? M&H? The various
>>Steinway models? I am really curious as to how you see this.
>>
>>Gerry
>>
>
Of your list, if you insisted on buying a brand new piano, I would go
with any of the above EXCEPT Samick or Young Chang. There is NO WAY I
would ever actually put down money to purchase a Samick or Young
Chang.
My feelings are that both pianos are at the near-bottom of the food
chain only sitting slightly above the Chinese built anything.
>Every Yank Chunk, whoops excuse, Young Chang , I have ever played
>should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
>at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk. I have had keys that
>stick, don't work, make noise, out of tune etc... Never have I played
>one that worked properly. Kind of leaves you with a bad impression.
>
>Other than that, I guess they are nice looking pianos <g>
>
>
>Bob Cardone
Don
A former Young Chang player.
Don
>>Every Yank Chunk, whoops excuse, Young Chang , I have ever played
>>should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
>>at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk.
>
>Good Lord, Bob, were you beaten by a Young Chang as a child? Did one fall on
>your dog? As a PianoDisc technician that has serviced over a hundred of these
>pianos (they are the piano that the PianoDisc factory sells with their player
>systems) I have never experienced the ongoing problems with any of them that
>have seem to have driven you over the brink. Any time that a player system is
>installed in a piano, it's like turning the family car into a taxi cab. (Theres
>that car metaphor again) Players usually get a lot more abuse than a regular
>piano. If YCs were as bad as you say, I wouldn't have time to do anything but
>try to keep up on repairs. Truth is, I can't remember the last service call on
>a Young Chang. It's been at least six months. If they are prepped by a
>technician that understands the potential problem areas of the YC (and every
>make has their own "problem areas") then there should not be the ongoing
>problems that you seem to experience. I still contend that there too many techs
>out there that DON'T know how to service these pianos and that THAT is the
>problem you have. No, I don't have stock in the company, and no, Young Changs
>are not my favorite piano, but ther must be a reason the hundred + YCs under my
>care are holding up much better than the ones you have encountered.
>
> Dave Bunch Piano Service
> & Certified PianoDisc Technician
> members.aol.com/pdtek/piano.htm
Dave, I understand what you are saying.
It would appear to me that there is not a piano tech in the city of
Dallas, Texsas who is able to "fix" a Young Chang.
I have tried several including the one I used for years on a couple of
Baldwins at the Fairmont Hotel. He couldn't get them to work right
either.
D*
Bob Cardone
What is curious is that the people that have to play them seem to
despise them and the people that fix them think they are OK. :)
Bob Cardone
Bob Cardone
>
>
>Bob Cardone wrote:
>
>> pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Bob Cardone wrote:
>> >
>> >> Like I said, it's still a piece of junk
>> >>
>> >> Bob Cardone
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Just curious, Bob, where do you draw this line between piano and junk? For
>> >instance, of the two series of Yamaha grands, which side of the line does
>> >each fall? How about the Kawai's? Schimmel's? Samick's? M&H? The various
>> >Steinway models? I am really curious as to how you see this.
>> >
>> >Gerry
>> >
>>
>> Every Yank Chunk, whoops excuse, Young Chang , I have ever played
>> should have been visited from 200 feet above by a wrecking ball going
>> at terminal velocity. I think they are all junk. I have had keys that
>> stick, don't work, make noise, out of tune etc... Never have I played
>> one that worked properly. Kind of leaves you with a bad impression.
>>
>> Other than that, I guess they are nice looking pianos <g>
>>
>> Bob Cardone
>
>I know, Bob, but does this just apply to Young Chang or to some or most other
>brands as well? I'm not here to argue the point, I'm just trying to get a feel
>for where you are coming from on this subject that you obviously feel very
>strongly about. Personnally I have some rather negative feelings about Yamaha,
>but not to the extent that you seem to feel about Young Chang.
>
>Gerry
>
>Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
I am just stating a fact of life for me. I work pretty frequently in
clubs and restaurants and when I run across a YC, it is usually going
to be a bad night. When I find out they have a YC, I am usually going
to try and talk the club into letting me bring my RD-600.
Bob Cardone
John S. Gray
has the store prepped it thoroughly? Will they allow you to buy the
demonstrator if you like the touch & tone? (If you do want it, ensure the
serial nunber is in the bill of sale)
Can you get the technician who did the prep job aside/on his lunch
hour/for a Friday afternoon beer, etc. (he may know some things about
this piano that he is not free to discuss in the sales room, like a bad
pin right at the break, some awkward bridge pins in the treble, that sort
of thing)...?
Will the store allow a third-party technician to examine the instrument?
Just some red herrings.
I still think a 48-inch upright for that price has a lot going for it.
JG
A440A
Greetings,
A store that will not allow a third party tech to examine their used
pianos has something to hide. Beware.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tenn. USA
pTooner
A440A wrote:
I certainly agree, Ed, but aren't we talking about a new piano here?
Gerry
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
VOCE88
>try to keep up on repairs. Truth is, I can't remember the last service call
>on
>a Young Chang. It's been at least six months. If they are prepped by a
>technician that understands the potential problem areas of the YC (and every
>make has their own "problem areas") then there should not be the ongoing
>problems that you seem to experience.
Dave -
This must be where the problem lies. Without knowing where Bob lives, Id say
the YC dealer in the area sends out unprepped and untuned pianos.
Just my 2 cents.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
1 800 394 1117
Don
>I'm considering purchasing one of 2 Young Chang
>uprights. The 46 1/2 "institutional" paino or the
>48" Pramberger Signature model.
>Sorry I dont know the actual model numbers.
>
>There are 3 beginning pianists in my house, none
>of whom know much about how a good piano should
>feel. We just know our Everett with cracked pin block
>and lousy regulation aint cutting it.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
>
>
>
>
I just found out some information. It seems that the primary tech for
YC left the company a few years back and went to work for Kawai. He
was very happy to work for Kawai. When he worked for YC, when there
was a "show" it took weeks and weeks to get the "show pianos" up to
the level they should be.
The person who related this to me said YC pianos were only slightly
above Samick.
Well, that is how I have felt for years.
No new news here.
SEMarcus
"It seems that the primary tech for
YC left the company a few years back and went to work for Kawai. He
was very happy to work for Kawai. When he worked for YC, when there
was a "show" it took weeks and weeks to get the 'show pianos' up to
the level they should be."
Who are you talking about? Ray Chandler? Don Mannino?
Happy New Year,
Steve Marcus (SEMa...@aol.com)
http://members.delphi.com/stevemarcus/index.html
Director of Sales, THE BEAUTIFUL SOUND, INC.
http://www.qrsmusic.com/mrktng/dealers/Beautsound/BeautSound.htm
Jim David
for pianos and organs. Recently our dealership stopped carrying the Young
Chang piano line, but we still have several left on our floor. I have sold
several customers over the last ten years several Young Chang grands and
vertical pianos, and they represent an excellent value for the money.
Recently, Young Chang has opened a factory in China in addition to the
factory in South Korea. We still have two Young Chang U-121 studio pianos on
our floor, both that look identical in ebony polish. They both have the same
model number stamped in the plate. One is made in the factory in China, and
the other is made in the factory in South Korea. The one made in China does
not sound as good as the one made in South Korea when you play them side by
side. I can not put a finger on exactly what the difference is, other than
the making of pianos is an art and a craft as well as a a manfacturing
process. You can tell by the serial number because the Chinese ones have a
"T" before the numbers which stands for the city in China in which they were
manufactured. I agree with the person who advised you to purchase the South
Korean made piano over the Chinese built one. (By the way, have you looked a
the Baldwin studio pianos ?)
Mary Anne David
Retail salesperson representing Baldwin (complete line), Knabe, Schimmell,
Mason & Hamlin, Estonia, Clavinova and Lowrey Organ
Don
>Don wrote:
>
>"It seems that the primary tech for
>YC left the company a few years back and went to work for Kawai. He
>was very happy to work for Kawai. When he worked for YC, when there
>was a "show" it took weeks and weeks to get the 'show pianos' up to
>the level they should be."
>
>Who are you talking about? Ray Chandler? Don Mannino?
>
>Happy New Year,
And Happy New Year to you. I was refering to Don.
BTW, how would you like to play tuba in a wonderful church orchestra
in Dallas? I know where there is an opening!
>Steve Marcus (SEMa...@aol.com)
>http://members.delphi.com/stevemarcus/index.html
>Director of Sales, THE BEAUTIFUL SOUND, INC.
>http://www.qrsmusic.com/mrktng/dealers/Beautsound/BeautSound.htm
Recently described as:
Bob Sutherland
> If you don't mind that piano tuner taking up residence in your home so
> that he can be on 24 hour standby, then you will probably love a [piano
brand cut...]. Besides, the tuner can keep your MG mechanic company
<G>
>
> Bob Cardone
And your Windows NT/95 sys admin company as well...
Bob S.
CISSY6
nor ever will: Our (Korean) Young Chang U150 has been a good choice for
playing for personal pleasure, children learning and practicing, and social
occasions. For the money, it has given all we have asked, our technician
tunes it regularly and we have had no problems with it whatsoever. Granted,
we probably don't have the musicians' ears that many of you do, but I feel this
piano has been a good choice for our family and our needs. For goodness sake,
Larry Fine didn't give this manufacturer the thrashing that many of you have!!
Peg
John S. Gray
Chang. Then again, certain high-falutin' musical types have dismissed my
work as `nowhere near a professional level' for 25 years now.
<grin>
JG