Fingering for Fantasie-Impromptu
Janet Wentworth
I have always avoided Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu Op.66 due to my small
hands and the resulting difficulties in the left hand broken chords. I have
decided to give it another try and am asking if any of you have ideas on the
best fingering for a small hand that cannot span the chord. I understand
the first note of the broken chord is to be emphasized so would it be better
to play 5-5-2-1-2-4 or try to bring more lateral arm movement to play
5-4-2-1-2-4? Actually what has worked the best is 5-2-1-2-1-3 but I don't
think the thumb under routine would be good for my hands in the long run -
especially in trying to play it at the correct tempo. Or should I give up
and find another piece better suited to a small hand?
All ideas are gratefully appreciated.
Janet
Greg Presley
Janet Wentworth wrote:
My hands are not small, so this is not the way that I would finger, but why not
try something like 5-1-2-1-2-1-5. The pedal is always down for this figure, so
the small discontinuity between the thumb and the second should not be
noticeable. (In other words, don't worry about trying to make it legato). For
small hands, it seems to me that the span of a 5th should feel easy and
comfortable 5-1. You will need to make more changes of position than someone
with larger hands, but that is pretty normal for small-handed people I believe.
(To make you feel better, you have the advantage in fine finger
articulation). Greg
Larisa Migachyov
> Hello--
> I have always avoided Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu Op.66 due to my small
> hands and the resulting difficulties in the left hand broken chords. I have
> decided to give it another try and am asking if any of you have ideas on the
> best fingering for a small hand that cannot span the chord. I understand
> the first note of the broken chord is to be emphasized so would it be better
> to play 5-5-2-1-2-4 or try to bring more lateral arm movement to play
> 5-4-2-1-2-4? Actually what has worked the best is 5-2-1-2-1-3 but I don't
> think the thumb under routine would be good for my hands in the long run -
> especially in trying to play it at the correct tempo. Or should I give up
> and find another piece better suited to a small hand?
If you can do 5-4-2-1-2-4, why not try 5-3-2-1-2-3? I'd think it would be
more comfortable. You don't have to play it all legato. However, if it's
not comfortable for you (and my hands are large, so don't listen to me), I
think thumb-under is going to be better than jumping - so, maybe something
like 5-3-1-2-1-3? (if you use 2 and 3 rather than just 2 on both notes,
it'll be easier to play it fast)
--
Larisa Migachyov
Quaternion Press Publishing House
Have a math question? Ask the Quaternion at
http://www.quaternionpress.com/mathhelp.html
Wyatt
>
> Hello--
> I have always avoided Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu Op.66 due to my small
> hands and the resulting difficulties in the left hand broken chords. I have
> decided to give it another try and am asking if any of you have ideas on the
> best fingering for a small hand that cannot span the chord. I understand
> the first note of the broken chord is to be emphasized so would it be better
> to play 5-5-2-1-2-4 or try to bring more lateral arm movement to play
> 5-4-2-1-2-4? Actually what has worked the best is 5-2-1-2-1-3 but I don't
> think the thumb under routine would be good for my hands in the long run -
> especially in trying to play it at the correct tempo. Or should I give up
> and find another piece better suited to a small hand?
>
Hello Janet,
The first rule is to do whatever is most comfortable. Your fingers are
your most valuable asset in playing the piano and should be treated with
care. (ie. if any muscle strain or stiffness is felt, it is a sign that
technique needs to be improved)
Don't be afraid to play large broken chords with some jumps in them.
(as long as it's smooth) There are many chords in piano literature that
noone could play without significant jumps in them. (for example, the
LH *rolling* the chord: Bb...Bb...F...Bb...D) So it is a standard
technique that should be learned.
I don't subscribe to rigidly set fingerings because, as in all else, it
is the comfort of the individual, and hopefully their own conception of
the music that should be emphasized, rather than trying to get everybody
to play the same way, as many teachers do.
Regards,
Wyatt
Tom Shaw
individual and the player's conception of the music applies, as so many
comments on this ng, to mature or advanced players. A beginning piano
player will not be very comfortable with any fingering and certainly is
not likely to have a relevant conception of the music. There is nothing
wrong with teaching traditional fingerings for, say, the scales.
In addition proscribed fingerings which seem uncomfortable at first
become comfortable with practise. Finally, several contributors to this
ng have mentioned that there is are comfortable fingerings at slow tempi
which become impossible at the proper tempo, at which a more
uncomfortable fingering works.
TS
Ryan Linderman
You might see if you can find any videos of Alicia De Larrocha. She has
small
hands, but uses various techniques to play passages with large stretches
and leaps.
She also obtains a beautiful legatto without physically connecting all
the notes
by her use of the damper pedal. Watching her play can be a real
revelation.
Ryan
Radu Focshaner
>
In addition proscribed fingerings which seem uncomfortable at first
> become comfortable with practise.
(The above statement reminds me the etudes of playing legato fifths,
thirds, passing the 4-th finger over the fifth, 1&3 over 2 ,using some
help from the nose)
Though sometimes you have a hard time to choose "the prescribed"
fingering. For example, same etudes by CZERNY have different fingerings
in different editions (Germer, Buonamici) and I never know what are the
original fingerings. And once I learn one (at full speed), I cannot get
rid of it when trying another from some other edition. And I also get
confused by the "alternative" fingering in some passages because I don't
know if I have to choose one or learn both of them (they are etudes,
aren't they ?). Also I had troubles with fingerings in Cortot's drills
(my fingers got tangled and almost broke). A teacher I asked for advice,
concluded that obviously there must be a "typo" , but knowing the evil
sado oriented mind of Cortot, I doubt it.
I found in my wife's books, a russian edition of the Mozart C maj
sonata (for beginners) fingered by A.Goldweiser (many russian teachers
were "Goldsteins"). I was "struck" by the "genially" chosed fingering;
it "flowed", it moved the fingers and hand so naturally and comfortable
at first try and at tempo.
My rule : I never use an unfingered edition and try to compare
editions. Unfortunately, I did not find a source of russian editions
(what I found at a russian teacher I copied or forgot to return), for
although the engraving and the paper are pure crap, the fingerings are
outstanding.
Radu
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Wyatt
>
> To me the concept that fingerings should depend on the comfort of the
> individual and the player's conception of the music applies, as so many
> comments on this ng, to mature or advanced players. A beginning piano
> player will not be very comfortable with any fingering and certainly is
> not likely to have a relevant conception of the music.
Hello Tom,
Therein lies the secret. Most beginners do not play with relaxed
fingers and hands, and they often have difficulty playing through fast
or normal passages because their own muscles are fighting themselves.
And they could certainly learn their prescribed fingerings better and
more easily if their fingers and hands and arms are more relaxed.
Regards,
Wyatt
Tom Shaw
never seen a fingering yet which was not better than anything I have or
might have invented myself. Again, this applies to someone in the
second year of piano. And, perhaps fortunately for me, I have never
seen more than one way to finger a particular piece since I dont own
more than one publication of any selection I have. So I still think
fingerings prescribed for beginners are great.
TS
Cc88m
>hands and the resulting difficulties in the left hand broken chords. I have
>decided to give it another try and am asking if any of you have ideas on the
>best fingering for a small hand that cannot span the chord. I understand
>the first note of the broken chord is to be emphasized so would it be better
>to play 5-5-2-1-2-4 or try to bring more lateral arm movement to play
>5-4-2-1-2-4? Actually what has worked the best is 5-2-1-2-1-3 but I don't
>think the thumb under routine would be good for my hands in the long run -
>especially in trying to play it at the correct tempo. Or should I give up
>and find another piece better suited to a small hand?
>
>All ideas are gratefully appreciated.
>
>
There is no such thing as a free lunch, Janet, so if you want to really do it,
you are going to have to do some leg work. But from what little you have
written, I think you can do it. Here are some ideas:
Follow the indicated fingering for normal hands (5-3-2-1-2-4-5?), which will
require some wrist action, and of course arm movement. Now practice only the
left hand, just the first few bars, until it begins to tire; don't worry if it
is good or bad. Don't bother with the pedal, tho it might be easier with the
pedal, the practice gives better results without. If it tires after 3 times,
don't worry; quit, do something else, then return when left hand is rested
again. For example, you might practice the RH while the LH is resting.
One important point is why does your hand tire? Obviously because of the
stretch. What is not obvious is that you are probably using the wrong stretch.
Most beginners use the playing muscles to stretch the octave, not knowing that
the muscles for widening the palm are not the playing muscles. Try to isolate
the palm muscles consciously, by imagining that you don't have fingertips and
you are just playing with the palms. In other words, if you just relax the
fingers and stretch the palm, the fingers have to follow. The reason why you
get tired is because you are using the playing muscles to stretch which they
weren't designed to do. Of course, the palm muscles will also tire quickly in
the beginning, but they can be trained and eventually will do the job nicely.
Practice this way for 5 - 10 min. then quit. You may or may not see any
improvement. But if you come back tomorrow, you should see a definite
improvement. Do this for a few weeks or months as necessary, always making
sure that you keep increasing the amount of time you can do this, without
getting tired. Somewhere between 1 and 4 months, you should be ready to put
the 2 hands together and start playing the whole thing -- but that's another
lesson.
C. C. Chang
Janet Wentworth
have learned not to over-reach, so pain in the hand isn't really the
problem-- what I need to do is find the best fingering early on in the
learning process. Unfortunately as I get older I find it takes me longer to
learn a passage and if I must "unlearn it" to change a fingering, it is so
much more work!
Also, with the attempt to emphasize the first note of each broken chord-- it
gives me a chance to move from the low note to a position that allows
playing of the rest of the chord rather easily. Unfortunately none of the
editions I have for this piece have any fingerings included. So I am left
to my own devices (which more often than not, leads me astray!)
Thanks again - and all other suggestions gratefully accepted.
Janet
Yogi Panda
> editions I have for this piece have any fingerings included.
Try Schirmer Vol. 1039
Yogi
Father Yenda Smejkal
other pieces?
Every good wish,
Yenda
Cc88m wrote in message <19991111215017...@ng-xb1.aol.com>...
Janet Wentworth
I can reach an octave -- but am forced to play near the tips of the keys.
If there are additional notes in the chord-- not always can I find a way to
fit them in! I usually do all sorts of things such as redistributing the
notes between the hands, rolling the chords, etc. I also stay with pieces
that are within my grasp (pun intended!) I only play for myself and have no
ambitions of a professional career so I can be very choosy in what I play.
I have had several teachers and none ever said I should give up because of
my hand size-- just avoid those with large chords not suited to my hands. I
can also take liberties with the notes and drop those I can't reach. As I
am not entering competitions or anything, I don'ts see the harm. I enjoy
playing the piano too much to give up because of small hands. Actually, I
had a piano tuner with only 9 fingers -- and boy, could he play!!
Janet
Father Yenda Smejkal <yenda....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:80nccu$nlk$1...@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net...
Father Yenda Smejkal
octave, think of yourself has being able to play anything! Don't think of a
small hand as a restriction - there is a wealth of wonderful piano music for
big hands - but those of us with a small span are entitled to enjoy it!
There are ways and means! The English pianist Harriet Cohen had a span
which I believe was not much different from your own - and she was a
wonderful player! Her recordings are few, and I have only heard her
recordings of Bach and Bax, but from reading her autobiography she
championed everything - performing some of the more demanding Rachamaninoff
preludes with the composer in the audience, she was a champion of all the
contemporary repertoire of her day, including the Dvorak concerto which is
certainly a challenge for a big hand!
There is also Alicia de Larrocha - a champion of the Rachmaninoff 3rd (all
beit with the little cadenza!) - and there is nothing her tiny hands avoid!
For me, I love playing big hand music - admitedly, I can just catch a ninth
on a good day, but with inbetween notes, an octave is verging on a struggle!
In my amateurish way I love playing the opening cadenza of the Ravel left
concerto - have a go, it's wonderful fun! And also my greatest amusement is
having a go at Rachmaninoff's big cadenza from the 3rd concerto - give it a
whirl. There is nothing you cannot play with a small hand - and in some
ways the challenge can be fun. Just be careful not to hurt yourself!!
Every good wish
Yenda.