I can't trill on my piano
Simon van Wijk
"Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers? Is it impossible to
triller on a hard key action or am I a bad pianist???
Simon
ttl
Once a very good pianist told me, "No big deal, just keep on praticing
and you will get it sooner or later." That keeps me going these
days...:)
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wallace.e...@lmco.com
"Simon van Wijk" <simonv...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Help! I don't succeed in trilling on my piano. (For example
Beethoven's
> "Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
> Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
> depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers? Is it
impossible to
> triller on a hard key action or am I a bad pianist???
>
> Simon
>
Most pianos should be able to trill the Pathetique, but vertical pianos,
by nature, cannot trill as well as grand pianos can. Vertical pianos
require higher lifting of the fingers -- the key has to return almost to
its rest position before you can repeat the note. Grand pianos, however,
will allow you to restrike a key without fully releasing it.
Even amoung vertical pianos, some are better than others at trills. So,
to answer your question, it might be the piano or it might be you. If
you find you're not progressing on your piano it might be time to trade
it in. You may have reached the limits of your instrument.
Wally
CVP Users Group
Tobias Knowles
A part like that requires relaxation, weight of the keys should not be a
large factor.
Try to play it fast without necesarily producing sound if the keys are too
stiff.
Then play it slower producing sound and try to keep the same movement of the
wrist.
Also if you can do it with your right hand fairly well, try to achieve the
same feeling in your left hand.
Tobias Knowles
Simon van Wijk <simonv...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Gl$21ztK$GA....@fnews2.vi-internet.de...
Rick Clark
>Help! I don't succeed in trilling on my piano. (For example Beethoven's
>"Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
>Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
>depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers? Is it impossible to
>triller on a hard key action or am I a bad pianist???
I don't know what kind of pianist you are but I have to question why
the action is "tight". A description like that is a bad sign in terms
of quick repeats, etc. A well regulated grand that has not had weird
modifications or incompetent rebuilding done should trill quite
easily. 64g is on the heavy side but not outrageous. However,
downweight is a static measure. There is also additional dynamic
resistance that may be encountered, not easy to measure. My gut
instrinct is that if you can't trill on a grand it is well out of
regulation.
Rick Clark
Ryan Linderman
One way to find out if it's your piano or you is to play it on a
different piano.
Figures that require raply alternating notes like trills, tremelos, etc.
are much
more difficult on a vertical than a grand. So if you usually play on a
vertical you
might try the piece(s) on a grand to see if there is any difference. I
personally
think the left hand octaves in the Pathetique are a LOT easier on grands
than most
uprights, although there are a few uprights with actions that perform
pretty darn
close to grand actions.
Ryan
Simon van Wijk wrote:
>
> Help! I don't succeed in trilling on my piano. (For example Beethoven's
> "Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
> Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
> depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers? Is it impossible to
> triller on a hard key action or am I a bad pianist???
>
> Simon
Max
Simon van Wijk wrote in message ...
>Help! I don't succeed in trilling on my piano. (For example Beethoven's
>"Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
>Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
>depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers? Is it impossible
to
>triller on a hard key action or am I a bad pianist???
>
>Simon
regulated properly and have no tight flange centrepins.Downweight can vary
as to preference ( I like 50 g ) and the note should be able to repeat at
half the key dip.
Some upright actions play beautifully and some play like dogs.It
depends on the geometry and grands tend to be more consistent.
It is a real bonus for the purpose of trilling if your u/r action has a
repetition rail. This rail can be finely adjusted in the regulation process
to prevent excessive and wasted travel of the jacks thus ensuring a speedy
return to the "firing position".
piano guy
regulated >properly and have no tight flange centrepins. Downweight
can vary as >to preference ( I like 50 g ) and the note should be able
to repeat at >half the key dip.
How the #%& can a properly regulated upright repeat a half keydip? Do
you infer that the piano must have lost motion or be played with the
soft pedal depressed?
--
====piano guy=====
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Max <mailto:Max...@connect.com> wrote in message
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Max
piano guy wrote in message ...
>Do
>you infer that the piano must have lost motion or be played with the
>soft pedal depressed?
>How the #%& can a properly regulated upright repeat a half keydip?
half way point , it should be able to produce another hammer strike instead
of having to return fully to it's starting position ( key level ). Do you
disagree ?
Cc88m
>"Sonate Pathetique" opus 13, 1st part.)
>Is this because of the very tight action (64 g downweight with pedal
>depressed) or am I too weak or too slow with my fingers?
Are you trilling with the pedal down? If so, that would be the problem.
C. C. Chang
piano guy
the
>half way point , it should be able to produce another hammer strike
>instead of having to return fully to it's starting position ( key
level ). Do >you disagree ?
That is a mechanical impossibility in a properly regulated vertical.
The jack can not reposition itself under the butt at half keydip. As I
previously stated the only way would be if there is excessive lost
motion or the soft pedal is depressed.
A grand action has a repetition spring which supports the repetition
lever allowing the jack to return under the knuckle. Verticals do not
have this capability.
--
====piano guy=====
return email disabled
Max <mailto:Max...@connect.com> wrote in message
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kam...@flash.net
piano guy wrote:
> >After the note is played and the key is on it's upward travel , by
> the
> >half way point , it should be able to produce another hammer strike
> >instead of having to return fully to it's starting position ( key
> level ). Do >you disagree ?
> ======================================================
> That is a mechanical impossibility in a properly regulated vertical.
> The jack can not reposition itself under the butt at half keydip...
No, it is not a mechanical impossibility. There are vertical actions
that can be regulated to have the jack reposition itself under the hammer
butt before the key well before the key returns to home base.
I've done it on a Steinway F100 vertical. However, I didn't measure
whether it was *exactly* half way point/half dip. I reduced hammer
spring tension and increased jack spring tension to achieve this, as well
as modify the touchweight.
There are two other methods that produce superior repetition performance,
such as the Fandrich action and the Turbo action by Jack Wyatt of Texas
--.
Keith McGavern
Registered Piano Technician
Oklahoma Chapter 731
Piano Technicians Guild
USA
kam...@flash.net
No, it is not a mechanical impossibility. There are vertical actions
that can be regulated to have the jack reposition itself under the hammer
butt well before the key returns to home base.
--
Max
piano guy wrote in message ...
>the
>>half way point , it should be able to produce another hammer strike
>>instead of having to return fully to it's starting position ( key
>level ). Do >you disagree ?
>======================================================
>That is a mechanical impossibility in a properly regulated vertical.
>previously stated the only way would be if there is excessive lost
>motion or the soft pedal is depressed.
Action geometry is many and varied as is key length and fulcrum.Some
actions are just superb to regulate whilst others are fairly sad but in my
view the ends justifies the means . Good repetition is important to me so I
will find a way to achieve it .That may include shortening the hammer blow ,
deepening the key depth , less hammer check off, more acute check
angle,slicing the notch leather so that the top of the jack doesn't get
caught on it if it is too thick at the top ,re-positioning the set off rail
forward or back
etc. etc. etc. I would not allow lost motion into the equasion as I hate
this sensation under my fingers whilst playing.As to the soft pedal being
depressed,this relates to shortening the hammer blow thus allowing more
notch clearence and as I have previously stated , I do shorten the hammer
blow if I have to but only a little .Little compromises can be made in the
regulating process so that no one single element will stand out. One thing I
always keep standard though is hammer set - off.
So I vehemently disagree with you but these are only words on a screen. I
wish I could show you the Yamaha U1 in my workshop that I have just done a
fairly textbook regulation on , it will repeat at 1/3 key dip !!
>
>A grand action has a repetition spring which supports the repetition
>lever allowing the jack to return under the knuckle. Verticals do not
>have this capability.
Agreed,but thats another subject.
B.T.W. Rick Baldassin & Chris Robinson have some great info on Action
Geometry.
I don't know who these guys are or where they are from but I have read their
work.
Ryan Linderman
Some Sauter uprights have a repetition spring that repositions the jack
under the
butt and less than half keydip. I was shown this by a technician at a
local
dealer. I didn't measure, but it looked like the jack could return at
3/4
keydip, or maybe a tad more.
Ryan
piano guy wrote:
>
> >After the note is played and the key is on it's upward travel , by
> the
> >half way point , it should be able to produce another hammer strike
> >instead of having to return fully to it's starting position ( key
> level ). Do >you disagree ?
> ======================================================
> That is a mechanical impossibility in a properly regulated vertical.
> The jack can not reposition itself under the butt at half keydip. As I
> previously stated the only way would be if there is excessive lost
> motion or the soft pedal is depressed.
>
> A grand action has a repetition spring which supports the repetition
> lever allowing the jack to return under the knuckle. Verticals do not
> have this capability.
>
> --
> ====piano guy=====
> return email disabled
> Max <mailto:Max...@connect.com> wrote in message
> news:80blre$6q5$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au...
> >
> > piano guy wrote in message ...
> > >Do
> > >you infer that the piano must have lost motion or be played with
> the
> > >soft pedal depressed?
> > No .
> > >How the #%& can a properly regulated upright repeat a half keydip?