piano vs. pianoforte?
P Keehn
Mike McGary
: What's the difference between a piano and a pianoforte?
The terms predate the instrument. The terms piano and forte are
used in written music to indicate how loud a section of music should
be played. piano means soft, forte means loud (I'm sure that some
students of the art could be more articulate than me, but I'm trying).
The instrument that this news group is named after was originally known
as a pianoforte (meaning soft-loud). It's creator, Christifori (sp?),
had come up with a new way to get the strings to vibrate (hammers that
move away after striking) that gave players volume control that was
unheard of before. The popular instruments of the time were plucked
(harpsicord and clavinet) and had very little dynamic response.
It's name was shortened to piano over time.
This allowed musicians to concentrate on coming up with a tuning that
they could all agree with. We are still waiting for that to happen...
-McGary
mcg...@metronet.com
http://fohnix.metronet.com/~mcgary
Please forgive the innacuracies above. I didn't have time to dig through
reference material, and I thought that something pretty close was better than
nothing.
Jeanette Friedman
--
Jeanette Friedman jfri...@leo.vsla.edu
Virginia Beach Public Library FAX (804) 431-3018
Va. Beach VA
John Yeung
> The difference between a tomayto and a tomahto.
Well, probably better to say the difference between auto and automobile. ;)
But are you sure? I have confusion myself on this because there are three
different terms which may apply to either two or three different instruments.
The modern piano is universally known as the piano, that's pretty clear. :)
However, there is another term that muddies the picture considerably, and
that is fortepiano. I'm positive that this term is in use and I'm almost
positive that it means something special that is neither a piano nor a
pianoforte.
Ok, my vague picture is this: A fortepiano is one of those small precursors
to pianos/pianofortes which were in use during, say, Mozart's time. Then I
think pianofortes came along, which were bigger and capable of vastly louder
sound. I suppose "piano" was just a shortening of "pianoforte", and in this
case, there is no clear-cut division between those "two" instruments, but
I'm pretty sure the fortepiano was very much distinct from the pianoforte,
vaguely the way that the chalumeau relates to the clarinet.
(Man, I shoulda paid more attention in my music history classes. ;)
John
P Keehn
organ, and pianoforte. I think it was 18th century music.
Pauline
Jeanette Friedman
piano history I know about. These days, the instrument is
usually called a piano. I have seen the term
pianoforte used in modern times, but it sounds highfalutin
and formal to me.
I studied and play piano. Although I'm classically trained,
I don't mind being called a piano player.
Ron Berry, RPT
>
>What's the difference between a piano and a pianoforte?
There is a certain amount of haze in the usage of the words pianoforte
and fortepiano. The original word pianoforte came from the use
describing the earliest pianos as gravicembelo col piano e forte.
Basically harpsichord with loud and soft. Somehow the word got turned
around to fortepiano which is currently used to describe the small
harpsichord like pianos of Mozart's day. These usually have no iron
plate and very low tension strings like a harpsichord. They usually have
a Viennese type action where the hammer shanks are attached to the key
itself and are mounted with the hammer on the end nearest the player.
Modern pianos use the "english action" and have the hammers mounted on
their own rail with the hammer mounted on the end of the shank away from
the player. This allowed for more power and consistency of blow from the
action.
Modern pianos have iron plates and strings at 150 lbs tension plus.
Harpsichord or fortepiano strings are more like 25-30 lbs.
The book on the History of the piano by Rosamund Harding is a good
resource.
Stephen Birkett
There is no historical basis for a distinction between these words. At
any given time or place either one of these terms could have been used.
Generally speaking the English tended to use pianoforte, but, on the
continent, both terms were used right from the early period.
The term `fortepiano' was a convenience adopted in modern times by the
recording industry to identify a period instrument, originally one circa
1790s i.e. a so-called `Mozart' piano. Within the last decade (or two)
modern replicas of larger instruments have been produced and recorded.
The clear distinction between the `early = fortepiano' and `modern =
pianoforte' is becoming blurred, and it has been suggested by some that
ALL instruments should be called pianoforte (or piano in colloquial English).
It is incorrect to suppose that the `early' piano is somehow a different
instrument from the modern piano. There is no clear dividing line in the
development of the modern instrument (which existed in roughly its
present form by late 19th century). e.g. how should a 1840 Pleyel be
identified...quite clearly not a modern piano but equally clearly not a
1790 piano? Pleyel used the English action. What about an 1840 Graf with
Viennese action, no iron? What about a modern 1900 Bosendorfer fitted
with Viennese action (this was an option on these instruments until
1909!). None of this is logical or consistent. Modern interests are so
varied now that the `convenience' of using fortepiano for a synonym to
`early piano' is no longer meaningful. Historical instruments should be
identified and described as such on recordings and broadcasts, and in
concert.
Stephen Birkett
Ecosystem Health
Environmental Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Duncan Vinson
> What's the difference between a piano and a pianoforte?
Piano is simply the commonly accepted short name for the modern
instrument. Sometimes in the academic literature, you will see it
referred to as the pianoforte. This is strictly for the sake of
formality, and not an indication of a difference in instrument.
However, it gets more complicated since today we refer to the piano of the
18th century (or a replica) as a fortepiano. This term, as I understand
it, is used for a piano without a cast iron frame. The difference in tone
is quite striking. These instruments were what was commonly in use during
the time of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. Therefore, some modern
performers, for the sake of historical accuracy, prefer to perform this
music on the fortepiano.
I hope I kept this straight!
Duncan
--
Duncan Vinson 735 University Avenue; Sewanee, TN 37383 USA
vins...@seraph1.sewanee.edu WWW: http://locust.sewanee.edu
"When you can't see the forest for the trees, look at the trees.
When you've seen enough trees, you've seen a forest."
Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
Michael Scott
: What's the difference between a piano and a pianoforte?
[Excuse me if I get details wrong--it's been a little while since I researched
this]. At the turn of the eighteenth century, an Italian instrument maker
named Bartolomeo Cristofori created the ancestor of the modern piano. It was
distinguished from previous keyboards by striking its strings with hammers
instead of plucking them (like a harsichord) or striking them with small metal
wedges (like a clavichord). The hammers were designed to rebound from the
strings to prevent them damping the resulting vibrations and included a
mechanism to prevent them from rebounding and striking the strings a second
time. The net result of this was instrument with unprecedented dynamic range,
the existence of which prompted something of a revolution in keyboard music
composition.
One of Cristofori's colleagues gave the instrument the name "gravicembalo col
piano e forte", which is Italian for "harpsichord with soft and loud". [What
prompted me to research this in the first place was my surprise in learning,
when I first started studying music, that the name of this fairly hard (to the
touch) instrument was the Italian word for soft]. This flipped around and for
a long period the instrument was called a "fortepiano". Eventually, it was
flipped back to "pianoforte" which we commonly shorten to just "piano".
There have been numerous "improvements" in the design of the instrument over
three centuries, most of them happening about in the early 19th century.
Longer and longer strings were desired to give the instrument more volume,
depth and "presence". This eventually required that the strings be mounted on
a cast iron frame to support the aggregate tension. The strings for the
original instruments were mounted straight across the soundboard; more modern
instruments fan the strings for the treble and middle range across, and fan
the bass string on top of these. This "cross-stringing" arrangement results
in a different coloration of the entire range.
Today, there is some thought that, though the instrument has changed since
Beethoven's time, it has not necessarily been made better by those changes.
In fact, neither better or worse, just different. Enough different, some would
say, that it is not possible to use the modern piano to reproduce the intent
of the composers who wrote music for "fortepiano"--Mozart through Beethoven
and their contemporaries. For instance, in much classical music, it's thought
that the left-hand parts were meant to be played at virtually equal volume
with the right; when you do that with modern, cross-strung pianos, there are
resonance overtones which can be heard as distinctly disonant, so we tend to
play the left-hand parts a few dynamic levels lower.
One of the main proponents of the "back to fortepiano" movement is a man named
Malcolm Bilsom (or something like that), who teaches at some University in
Connecticutt. He, and a group of his acolytes, recently performed a series of
concerts in a hall in New York City, covering Beethoven's complete "cycle" of
32 piano sonatas, all using recreations of the 5- and 6-octave fortepianos
which were available to Beethoven while he wrote them. I'm really hoping that
some recordings come out of that series. Since Bilsom is doing a sebatical at
the Eastman School here in Rochester, I'm actually hoping that he will
schedule a performance while he's here (and before I decide to bug out of this
frozen hell). There is an interesting interview with him in Piano and
Keyboard Magazine, about an issue back (the last issue had a short article on a
couple who are crafting forepiano reproductions in an old Virginia
schoolhouse). One of his "old pianos" is in a room a couple of doors down the
hall from my teacher's studio. Unfortunately, no one's ever been in there
when I was there for lessons in the evening. I'm going to stop in sometime on
a Saturday--maybe I'll catch someone practicing on it.
-- Mike
s...@delphi.dasd.honeywell.com
> Actually, Mike McGarry's explanation is pretty close to the
> piano history I know about. These days, the instrument is
> usually called a piano. I have seen the term
> pianoforte used in modern times, but it sounds highfalutin
> and formal to me.
>
>
I have heard a recording on a pianoforte player playing a pianoforte. It sounds
different. The performer is specialized in playing pianoforte.
Also, I have seen picture of Beethoven sitting in front of his pianoforte: that
thing does not have any pedal (the picture might be wrong though).
Today, music written for pianoforte are often played on piano, and the term
pianoforte refers sometimes to any piano-like instrument; and sometimes to a
real pianoforte.
Shang
Michael Scott
: P Keehn (szke...@rocky.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: : What's the difference between a piano and a pianoforte?
... much verbiage deleted ...
: There have been numerous "improvements" in the design of the instrument over
: three centuries, most of them happening about in the early 19th century.
: Longer and longer strings were desired to give the instrument more volume,
: depth and "presence". This eventually required that the strings be mounted on
: a cast iron frame to support the aggregate tension.
I knew that I was getting something wrong. I checked my sources, and the
strings got _thicker_ to increase volume, not longer.
Re-reading the interview with Bilson, he claims that there are numerous other
differences besides the thicker strings and cross-stringing. Subtle things
like the direction of the grain of the wood relative to the direction of the
strings.
: -- Mike
Michael Scott
: Shang
What was the recording? I'd love to hear some music on one of these things--
I've only read people's claims about how great Beethoven sounds on them.
As for the lack of pedals on the picture of Beethoven, I'd wondered about that
upon seeing photos of reproductions. It turns out that many early instruments
had knee controls for the dampers. I am not certain whether they had either
"una corda" or "sustenuto" mechanisms (all though I think they had at least
the "una corda").
A point that Malcolm Bilson makes in the interview that I read (in the
September/October issue of "Piano and Keyboard"), was that classical composers,
working with "fortepianos", did not write long passages of legato, or use the
term "sempre legato". It was not an effect that was as easy to acheive with
their instruments. He thinks that the nature of the modern instrument encour-
ages people to play everything legato (unless it's marked stacatto), though it
is possible to acheive "detached" playing on modern pianos. In my own poor
playing, I find it hard to make a clear distinction between an unmarked passage
and a slurred passage--I've been meaning to ask my teacher to demonstrate.
-- Mike
Michael Scott
: Shang
Would you happen to know the name (and publisher, catalog #) of that recording?
I'm fairly aching to hear some music played on one of these instruments.
As for the picture of Beethoven, I wondered the same thing, looking at photos
of some fortepiano recreations. As it turns out, many of these early instru-
ments had knee controls for the damper (I don't know if they had "una corda"
or sustenuto mechanisms--I'd guess at least "una corda").
In the interview that I read with Malcolm Bilson ("Piano and Keyboard",
September/October issue), he points out that the classical composers never
wrote long passages of continuous legato--no long slurs on their autographs,
or written "sempre legato" annotations. It was not easily acheived on their
instruments--maybe these knee damper controls were part of the diffulty 8^).
In contrast, Bilson feels that modern pianos, by their very nature, encourage
us to play almost everything legato (except notes explicitly marked stacato),
though he thinks it's relatively easy to play in a "detached" fashion even on
modern instruments. In my own poor playing, I find it hard to create much of
a distinction between slurred passages and unmarked ones. I've been meaning
to ask my teacher to demonstrate the difference.
-- Mike
vinsold0
coined by Bartolommeo Cristofori, who called his harpsichord
"gravicembalo con piano e forte" (literally, "harpsichord with soft
and loud"). Modern usage has shorted this to just "piano".
Incidentally, the term "fortepiano" refers to either an authentic or
reproduced piano of the 18th century.
Duncan Vinson 735 University Avenue Sewanee, Tennessee 37383 USA
mailto:vins...@seraph1.sewanee.edu (Ask for PGP 2.6 public key)
Classical music gems: http://locust.sewanee.edu/music.html
"Don't play it like gentlemen; play it like raging beasts!"
-Richard Strauss, during a rehearsal of Elektra