Yamaha v. kawai acoustic pianos
BK
I am in the process of buying a baby grand piano and am
undecided between a concert series Yamaha na d a Kawai. My 2
children have perfect pitch, my wife plays classical and I
play rock/boogie---any thoughts?
Don
In general both are good pianos. You might want to be more specific
with the model numbers. There are alot of folks here who can help
with specific numbers.
BTW, your kids probably don't have perfect pitch. They may have good
pitch memory, better than average...but certainly not what would be
called perfect.
When someone (usually proudly) proclaims perfect pitch, I always
respond with, "Perfect at WHAT pitch? The American A=440 or the
higher European pitchs? And WHICH European pitch?"
Comprende?
D*
Recently described as:
"piano-bar-church music director-conductor-funeral pianist."
------------------------------------------------------------
www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
Remembering Shadow
July 1984 - November 13, 1997
A Tribute To The Sweetest, Most Perfect Dog In Heaven
Tom Croft
anything, but I'll respond to your question on pianos anyway with my
non-expert opinion. The long and short of it is that both companies
make some excellent medium priced pianos. However, I think people
tend to choose one over the other based primarily on personal taste in
tone (and in some cases touch), and only you can say what that is, of
course, after you've tried both brands thoroughly. It's really much
like the Ford vs. Chevy debate to a certain extent.
If you and your wife have distinctly different taste in piano tone,
you may have difficulties choosing an instrument that will please both
of you. My guess is that you will probably prefer Yamaha and she'll
prefer Kawai (I'm assuming we're talking about a comparison such as
Yamaha C3 vs. Kawai RX-3). The reason is that Yamaha's tone tends to
be brighter (critics would say more "brittle" or "thin") than that of
Kawai overall. One way to look at brightness is as follows: a bright
piano says "e" and a mellow piano says "o" when you play it. The
Yamaha tone is very popular with jazz, rock, and blues pianists,
partly because the brighter Yamaha pianos tend to "cut through" an
ensemble a little better, allowing a piano solo to be heard more
easily in live performance situations. The mellower sound of the
Kawai, on the other hand, is quite popular with classical musicians,
although the Kawai is still brighter sounding than some other American
and European brands. Also, keep in mind that pianos become brighter
with time as the hammers become packed down. It's common and routine
to have a piano voiced down a bit (through needling the hammer felts)
once this occurs.
Personally, I'm starting to prefer the mellower American or Kawai
sound for *solo* jazz piano (my main focus) after initially thinking
Yamaha was the only game in town a year ago. One of the best sounding
pianos I've ever played is a 10-year-old Kawai KG-2D, for example, a
model that was designed specifically to sound more mellow and
"European." I love playing a blues on that piano! It just sounds
downright cool. However, If I were playing in an ensemble, I might
like a little brighter sound like the Yamaha for the reason given
above.
Our technician tells us that it is relatively easy to voice a Kawai
grand to be fairly mellow, whereas it's not quite as easy with a
Yamaha. He says a Yamaha *can* be voiced to be very mellow, but he
thinks it destroys the distrinct character of Yamaha grands to do
that. Another brand he recommends highly is Boston (e.g., the GP-178
5'10" grand), which is made by Kawai for Steinway to Steinway's
specifications. He thinks Kawai and Boston approximate the quality
and tone of Steinway the best among the medium priced Asian grands,
but he also speaks quite highly of Yamaha as a viable choice for those
who truly prefer the Yamaha sound.
Bottom line: you have to decide what you like and go from there.
Some will argue the Yamaha has a higher potential resale value, but if
you prefer the sound of the Kawai RX series piano, who cares?
Tom
Chuck VanSlambrook
Kawai grand for a Yamaha about 17 years ago because I preferred the Yamaha's
tone and action (although today's new pianos may have different
characteristics). Both pianos are in the same class or "quality" category.
It probably boils down to a matter of personal preference on primarily tone
and action, although you and your wife should obviously agree on the make.
Both brands are heavily discounted, but I'm not sure what the price
comparisons are. In any event, price differences are likely to be minor and
should not be your first concern.
I don't subscribe to the school of thought that one piano is "better" than
another for a particular type of music. I think that with a quality piano
in tune and properly voiced, all types of music should sound good.
I'm not sure what "perfect pitch" has to do with purchasing a piano, if that
is what you mean. I can easily identify any note on the piano just by
hearing it, but I doubt that this affects my preference of one brand over
another.
Regards,
Chuck Van
BK <trad...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3769B13A...@erols.com...
John Pugh
personal preferences and some facts.
I looked at roughly 10-15 brands of piano. Essentially the only models
available in North Carolina where I live are Yamaha, Kawai, Boston,
Steinway, Baldwin, Samick, Young Chang.
Of these, discounting Steinway for now because of price (If you're
wealthy you'll want one to park in your conservatory so that guests can
admire your taste. If you're a player you probably cannot afford one and
will consider Yamaha or Kawai)the Yamaha and Kawai brands offer the most
consistency for the money.
When I played ALL the Yamaha grands and ALL the Kawai grands I found the
differences were not really that great. I would say though that if you
decide on a size/price you should try more than one of the same model if
possible - some are better than others.
For my taste I found the Yamahas consistently stiff in the action and I
wanted no stiffness. One Yamaha would not play the string when playing
soft - I cannot abide this!
The sound of a Yamaha is powerful and full. In one home I visited it was
overpowering (and still stiff). Yamaha do a lot of advertising and
promotion. I would say that their name is better recognized than Kawai
so if you think resale - think Yamaha! If you don't care - buy a Kawai -
that was my decision in the end. I just preferred the touch and the
sound. I bought an RX7 which I like very much.
I do not regard it as my last piano - I still like the Steinway 'B' very
much and the value holds very well. I would really like to try some
European pianos and I am still hoping to play a Bechstein one of these
days. I've played a Bosendorfer and a Steinway. I think my RX7 will last
some time yet though.
BTW, the Yamaha dealers don't discount as much as the Kawai dealers as
far as I can tell although their costs are very similar so there's
another reason for looking at Kawai.
In the end let your ears and fingers tell you which one to buy and
if/when you get that weird but wonderful feeling in the pit of your
stomach when you play the right piano - try not to show the salesman how
excited you are and negotiate the best deal you can. I have found the
dealers to be just like car dealers. Walk out of the showroom the first
time and call in a week later casually or wait for them to call you -
sometime the mark up is as high as 100% on the tag price! It almost
always is at least 50%.
Good luck and good hunting!
BK wrote:
>
> Hi:
> I am in the process of buying a baby grand piano and am
> undecided between a concert series Yamaha na d a Kawai. My 2
> children have perfect pitch, my wife plays classical and I
> play rock/boogie---any thoughts?
--
John Pugh
pugh...@worldnet.att.net(at home)
john...@nortelnetworks.com (at the office)
Trey Behan
> if you think resale - think Yamaha! If you don't care - buy a Kawai -
>BTW, the Yamaha dealers don't discount as much as the Kawai dealers
Connect the dots between these two accurate statements. Then look hard for
Kawai pianos on concert stages. Especially those featuring artists with
"perfect pitch."
Trey Behan
Trey Behan
>BTW, your kids probably don't have perfect pitch. They may have good
>pitch memory, better than average...but certainly not what would be
>called perfect.
Thank you for exploding/explaining this common, misnomeric boast. If someone
can identify one tone after hearing another, he/she has RELATIVE pitch---a
learned or inherent gift. But unless this individual can differentiate A440
from A442, the rarity of "perfect pitch" need not be trumpeted.
Only the messenger,
Trey Behan
IBruton
>available in North Carolina where I live are Yamaha, Kawai, Boston,
>Steinway, Baldwin, Samick, Young Chang.
What part of NC are you in? I'm in the Raleigh burbs. Just for the record, I
hear there is a M&H dealer in Winston-Salem, NC. There are also a number of
other brands avaiable across the state. But of all the brands represented in
NC, the ones you specify above are the most numerous. Except for the Samick
and the YC, all of the above mentioned pianos are of a pretty high quality.
Sincerely,
Isaac B.
Raleigh/Durham
aka "The Research Triangle"
proudly supporting anyone who owns or is looking for the finest piano in the
world. YAMAHA!
Don
John Pugh
and forget the hype!
--
VOCE88
>Kawai pianos on concert stages. Especially those featuring artists with
>"perfect pitch."
>
>Trey Behan
Oh C'mon Trey! Could it be that Kawai does not have such a well endowed C&A
program?
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila,. Pa.
1 (800) 394-1117
Trey Behan
>Oh C'mon Trey! Could it be that Kawai does not have such a well endowed C&A
>program?
Could be. That would also explain the dearth of Samick, Wurlitzer, and Kohler &
Campbell grands onstage :)
I think Kawai builds a nice instrument for the money. But C & A or no C & A, I
just don't hear it discussed much as a serious concert instrument. It seems to
be built and sold primarily as a low-cost alternative to Yamaha.
Would a racing team opt to buy Porsche equipment over Volkswagen only because
Porsche has a factory team and support, or would it have to do with track
record?
Trey Behan
Tom Croft
these days, I'm going to visit it to see and hear for myself how those
new Mason & Hamlin pianos sound. Should be a fun trip.
Tom
Don
>Richard Galassini wrote:
>
>>Oh C'mon Trey! Could it be that Kawai does not have such a well endowed C&A
>>program?
>
> It seems to
>be built and sold primarily as a low-cost alternative to Yamaha.
>
Trey, you really have never heard of Kawai before, have you? You need
to study the company and the history of Kawai. It is not an
alternative to anything.
>Would a racing team opt to buy Porsche equipment over Volkswagen only because
>Porsche has a factory team and support, or would it have to do with track
>record?
>
Not applicable to this discussion or this situation. Apples to
oranges.
>Trey Behan
Trey Behan
>Trey, you really have never heard of Kawai before, have you? You need
>to study the company and the history of Kawai.
Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
Seriously, I will delve more deeply into the rich heritage of the Kawai piano,
because I enjoy factual information. I also hold my own opinion: By and large
they don't measure up to the Yamaha product below the level of the larger
grands (which, I believe, deny their owners the miracle of ABS).
With an open mind,
Trey Behan
Dick Hamlen
>
> Indeed, there is a Mason & Hamlin dealer in Winston-Salem. One of
> these days, I'm going to visit it to see and hear for myself how those
> new Mason & Hamlin pianos sound. Should be a fun trip.
>
> Tom
>
It is a nice shop, hospitable to browsers, and also carries Steinway,
Boston, Fazioli, Petrof, Kawai, and a 9' Falcone.
Dick Hamlen
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com
Trey Behan <trey...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
>was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
>And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
>
Kawai's been around 70ish years, and I think they don't do anything
but musical instruments, do they? Was Yamaha even building pianos when
Kawai started his company? I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
serious attention. But I won't ;)
I haven't heard any complaints about the plastic in the action,
but then, I haven't looked hard. Some people are definitely nervous
about it, but I haven't heard anyone say that it has caused a problem.
As far as I can tell, Steinway had some debacle a while back using teflon,
and now the entire industry is spooked about using any material that's
not straight from a plant or a critter.
Mine works fine.
Andrew
Trey Behan
>Kawai's been around 70ish years
Yamaha built its first product, a musical instrument, in 1895.
>Was Yamaha even building pianos when
>Kawai started his company?
Yes. The story goes that he learned his craft at Yamaha.
>I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
>would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
>to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
>product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
>serious attention. But I won't
Just as well to save yourself the time. Yamaha's Disklavier alone now accounts
for about 30% of all piano dollars spent, possibly because of its expertise
with "microchips." Grand pianos, high-end electronics, motored personal
vehicles...enough "serious attention" has been paid to development of these
products to make their worldwide popularity a matter of record.
Hey, enough. I happen to love playing Yamaha grands, and others love their
Kawais. My original point was that the K-Y purchasing decision seems to revolve
a great deal around PRICE, whereas many people begin their search for a good
piano with "I want a Yamaha." When they can't tell the diff between the two
Japanese pianos, they'll sometimes go for the cheaper one. Same with all
"price" shoppers on all products, don't you think? And if they enjoy the less
expensive product, so much the better.
Trey Behan
RJsmit1
>> these days, I'm going to visit it to see and hear for myself how those
>> new Mason & Hamlin pianos sound. Should be a fun trip.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>
>It is a nice shop, hospitable to browsers, and also carries Steinway,
>Boston, Fazioli, Petrof, Kawai, and a 9' Falcone.
>Dick Hamlen
>
I would love it if you would play the S&S B and the M&H BB back to back and
report to the group. They are both exquisite pianos, but most of us will never
get the chance to hear them side by side in a controlled environment. (I came
pretty close, but the S&S was used and in a different room of the store with a
very different accoustical environment).
Randall Smith
Don
>In article <19990621172554...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
>Trey Behan <trey...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
>>was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
>>And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
>>
>
> Kawai's been around 70ish years, and I think they don't do anything
>but musical instruments, do they? Was Yamaha even building pianos when
>Kawai started his company? I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
>would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
>to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
>product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
>serious attention. But I won't ;)
>
Actually, Kawai does the same thing. Pianos are only one of the
products.
> I haven't heard any complaints about the plastic in the action,
>but then, I haven't looked hard. Some people are definitely nervous
>about it, but I haven't heard anyone say that it has caused a problem.
>As far as I can tell, Steinway had some debacle a while back using teflon,
>and now the entire industry is spooked about using any material that's
>not straight from a plant or a critter.
>
> Mine works fine.
>
> Andrew
The cheap plastic parts of the 1950s Wurlitzer and other stencil
pianos is not what Kawai uses. Kawai uses ABS plastics which "are
used on the space shuttle," etc. But, ole Trey seems to know
everyone's sales pitches.
Don
>amolitor wrote:
>
>>Kawai's been around 70ish years
>
>Yamaha built its first product, a musical instrument, in 1895.
>
>>Was Yamaha even building pianos when
>>Kawai started his company?
>
>Yes. The story goes that he learned his craft at Yamaha.
>
>>I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
>>would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
>>to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
>>product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
>>serious attention. But I won't
>
>Just as well to save yourself the time. Yamaha's Disklavier alone now accounts
>for about 30% of all piano dollars spent, possibly because of its expertise
>with "microchips." Grand pianos, high-end electronics, motored personal
>vehicles...enough "serious attention" has been paid to development of these
>products to make their worldwide popularity a matter of record.
>
>Hey, enough. I happen to love playing Yamaha grands, and others love their
>Kawais. My original point was that the K-Y purchasing decision seems to revolve
>a great deal around PRICE, whereas many people begin their search for a good
>piano with "I want a Yamaha." When they can't tell the diff between the two
>Japanese pianos, they'll sometimes go for the cheaper one. Same with all
>"price" shoppers on all products, don't you think? And if they enjoy the less
>expensive product, so much the better.
>
>Trey Behan
It's good to know that Trey is at least showing his bias up front.
IBruton
>Kawai started his company? I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
>would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
>to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
>product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
Yamaha has been building pianos since 1887. The motorcycle company is a
totally different entity with naming rights. If you dare say that Kawai is a
better piano than Yamaha or that Yamaha doesn't give their pianos any serious
attention, then I'd say you've never heard a real Yamaha. Yamaha's quality of
construction is second to none IMHO.
Isaac B.
Tom Croft
the knowledge that I might have a very hard time leaving the store
without one of them, and they're both very expensive pianos. If I
take my wife along, she'll make sure I don't do anything foolish :-).
Tom
Trey Behan
>It's good to know that Trey is at least showing his bias up front.
And don't we ALL have "biases?" I don't think I was ambivalent from the
beginning about a preference based on experience and personal taste.
Furthermore, I have no desire to convert anyone else to it. I wish everyone had
a piano, and that it was the piano that made them HAPPY. Yamaha does it for me
in most cases, even more than Steinway.
Trey Behan
Dave Zappa
> Yamaha has been building pianos since 1887.
Actually Yamaha built reed organs, not pianos in 1887. If I'm not
mistaken they built their first pianos for the 1901 World Exhibition.
> The motorcycle company is a
> totally different entity with naming rights.
Yamaha Motorcycles are built by the same corporate entity as the pianos,
just a different division. Not that this fact effects the quality of
the piano one iota.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com
IBruton <ibr...@aol.com> wrote:
>Quoting Andrew Molitor:
>>serious attention. But I won't ;)
>
>Yamaha has been building pianos since 1887. The motorcycle company is a
>totally different entity with naming rights. If you dare say that Kawai is a
>better piano than Yamaha or that Yamaha doesn't give their pianos any serious
>attention, then I'd say you've never heard a real Yamaha. Yamaha's quality of
>construction is second to none IMHO.
A coupld people seem to have missed it, but that thing ';)' is
a smiley face. I was joking. Obviously, Yamaha builds fine instruments.
I was surprised to hear Yamaha has been around that long as
a piano maker! So Kawai really did work for them?
Andrew
Glenn Grafton
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com wrote:
> In article <19990621172554...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
> Trey Behan <trey...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
> >was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
> >And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
> >
>
> Kawai's been around 70ish years, and I think they don't do anything
> but musical instruments, do they? Was Yamaha even building pianos when
> Kawai started his company? I COULD go on and on wondering about why anyone
> would buy a piano from a company that builds everything from motorcycles
> to microchips, and how such a company can't possibly give one tiny little
> product line, let alone one class of product within that product line any
> serious attention. But I won't ;)
>
> I haven't heard any complaints about the plastic in the action,
> but then, I haven't looked hard. Some people are definitely nervous
> about it, but I haven't heard anyone say that it has caused a problem.
> As far as I can tell, Steinway had some debacle a while back using teflon,
> and now the entire industry is spooked about using any material that's
> not straight from a plant or a critter.
>
> Mine works fine.
>
> Andrew
Kawai was established in 1927, Yamaha in 1887.
Yamaha built their first piano in 1900. So yes Yamaha was building pianos
before Kawai.
As to the question why would someone buy a piano from a company that
"builds everything from motorcycles to microchips." The answer to that
question is that Yamaha's involvement in other industries has some real
benefits when it comes to making pianos.
Yamaha was the first company to use the vacuum process casting method for
making their cast iron plates is one example that comes to mind. (VPRO
casting is the same method that Cosworth racing engines use for casting
their engine blocks, not the older wet sand method which is not as
precise.)
Yamaha also has a division that makes robotics for factories. This gives
them a definate advantage in their factories since they have that
expertise "in house."
Of course the main thing is how the pianos sound and their reputation. As
an example, I got a call yesterday from doing arrangements for a major
concert in our area. He said that the artist specified that they provide
either a Yamaha or Steinway concert or semi-concert grand.
--
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co. Inc.
Souderton PA
(Philadelphia-Allentown area)
(800)272-5980
http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
IBruton
>in most cases, even more than Steinway.
>
>Trey Behan
>
Same here. I agree with Trey's statements wholeheartedly. Everyone has a
bias. Unlike Trey, I don't mind converting!! ;-)
Isaac B.
James D. Woodside
it's a better sounding and better product than the comparable Yamaha.
Trey Behan wrote:
>
> Don wrote:
>
> >Trey, you really have never heard of Kawai before, have you? You need
> >to study the company and the history of Kawai.
>
> Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
> was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
> And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
>
Tom Croft
and enjoy it very much). However, I think Kawai grands in the 6' and
slightly under size (RX-3 and RX-2, respectively) represent a somewhat
better value than comparable Yamahas. The key point is that there
doesn't seem to be that big of a subjective difference (to me at
least) between the Kawai RX-2 and the RX-3, yet the difference between
a Yamaha C2 and C3 is pretty dramatic, IMHO. If you want a *good*
Yamaha grand, therefore, the first one in the line worth considering
seems to be the C3, but that's a pretty pricey piano for many of us.
To someone trying to buy a decent grand for a livingroom, the Kawai
RX-2 starts looking pretty attractive: it's very similar to the RX-3,
yet it costs less than both the RX-3 and the Yamaha C3. Also, with
the RX-2 you're getting more or less a 6' piano in a 5'10" case
because of how it's designed. This could explain why the RX-2 (and
its forerunner the KG-2) has been such a popular model. No, I don't
work for Kawai; I just try to call 'em as I see 'em.
Tom
Chuck Van
Fair Warning!! Take your checkbook with you if you ever walk into a store
that has a new Mason & Hamlin BB on the floor. You won't leave without
purchasing this unbelievable piano, even if you have to mortgage the farm.
After auditioning several Steinway B's (and even a few concert D's), it was
an easy choice for me to buy the Mason & Hamlin BB from JB Piano Co. (see
www.jbpiano.com ). I originally planned to buy either a Steinway D or B
until I had the pleasure of playing the new Mason & Hamlin BB, although both
makes are world-class.
An added benefit is the lower sales price of the M&H, although the "list"
prices are not that far apart.
Regards,
Chuck Van
Tom Croft <tcroft...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:376e3b23...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se...
> Indeed, there is a Mason & Hamlin dealer in Winston-Salem. One of
> these days, I'm going to visit it to see and hear for myself how those
> new Mason & Hamlin pianos sound. Should be a fun trip.
>
> Tom
>
BK
Yamaha company was organs and pianos. Note that the company logo is 3 intersecting
tuning forks. Looks cute on a motorcycle, eh?
amoli...@visi-dot-com.com wrote:
> In article <19990621172554...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
> Trey Behan <trey...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >Oh please, tell me the story again! The one about the ex-Yamaha employee who
> >was dissatisfied with his company and started his own to build better pianos.
> >And the one about the pioneering of the ABS miracle. I love those so... :)
> >
>