Hamburg Steinway vs. American Steinway
H. Emmerson Meyers
Fredisg
>
I am not a tech and our tech guys can probably tell you more details about the
differences, but as a pianist and piano nut who has spent time with both
instruments on both sides of the pond I can tell you this:
1. The Hamburg factory still makes the A and O models I believe.
2. The Hamburgs that I have played have all been high gloss, where most of the
American instruments are satin.
3. Every Hamburg I have played and that consists of four of them ranging in
age from new to 10 years old has been very glassy, bright overtones with solid
full bass. The Americans, at least when they are newer are a bit more soft
spoken and subtle.
For example. My good friend in Kent, England who is quite a fine pianist has a
circa 1995 model O in a large living room in her Edwardian with high ceilings,
area rugs and decent furniture. It is one of the most agressive piano I have
ever played. The treble has a completely different sound than any American
Steinway I have ever played.
This does not mean that it is ugly or gross sounding, but it is just different.
I personally prefer the American instrument.
Now the techs can take over and tell you the actual differences.
Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor
Edvard
>
>
settled by the regulars. Fact is, there are actual differences between
pianos made in the two locations today. The U.S. factory does not export
outside of North America, ie. the New York facility only manufactures for
North America. Steinway Hamburg supplies the rest of the world (Europe,
Asia). Hamburg Steinways are shipped at 443 Hz, New York 440 Hz. American
"ebony" (black) Steinways are laquered. Hamburg Steinways have a high-gloss
polyester finish. New York actions are presently made in the U.S. facility.
Hamburg instruments use an action made by Renner to Steinway specs. In the
past there were other differences concerning the actions and hammers. The
variation in action and hammers could affect the sound, of course.
Everything else above is a matter of logistics or cosmetic.
Steinway's two locations build different models as listed here:
http://www.steinway.com/html/showroom/cat_1models.html
The sizes for Steinway are S, M, L, O, A, B, C, D, small to large. As you
can see, the O, the A, and the C are presently made only in Hamburg. These
are models that were all previously manufactured and sold in the U.S. and
fill the gaps between the model B and D, and B and L. The O has a round tail
as opposed to the same-sized square-tailed L, which has more soundboard in
the area close to the bass bridge. In Larry Fine's "Piano Book," (4th ed.)
you can read when these "Hamburg" models were discontinued in N. America.
So, what's the same? Answer: Everything else, including the scales for the
models made at both locations.
The website above uses the word "identical" in reference to the Hamburg and
N.Y. question, which I interpret as "identical within quality control
limits". That is a good aim for an international manufacturer of high
standards, but in reality, no two pianos can be "identical" in all respects,
even if manufactured at the same facility.
I've read that renner hammers are hard, whereas the hammers made in the
American Steinway factory are soft and always need to be treated with
hardening chemicals to properly voice the instrument. My dealer here said
the Hamburg Steinways are preferred by most international recording artists
and have a warmer tone. I remember a Steinway dealer from Chicago in rmmp
(was it Steve Marcus?) who said that all the artists who perform there use
the U.S. models except for Daniel Barenboim, who specifically requested a
Hamburg piano. Many pianists rave about the old O's. I've never heard raves
about an L.
I remember reading an account of a Horrowitz concert where Gidon Kramer
(violinist) attributed the "harsh" sound to H's American Steinway. I deal
regularly with three German O's and have heard many performances on various
German D's. In the right hands, they are all wonderful instruments. Pianists
tell me every Steinway is different and spend a lot of time looking for "the
right one" when they buy for themselves. My experience with the U.S.
instruments is from over 10 years ago, and at the time I wasn't paying too
much attention to subtle differences in piano sound. I've read that the U.S.
factory was plagued with quality problems during the 60's, 70's and 80's,
(extensive post about that here a week or two ago, but I can't find it,
sorry), but from what I've deduced, the Hamburg branch was not as affected
by these problems.
Its said musical tastes differ, but IMO, generalizations concerning
nationality are often made on the basis of very little information. Big
"American" sound, warm "European" Klangkultur. I beleive one needs to listen
to the individual artist. Many things have contributed to the formation of
an "international" pedagogical-, technical-, sound-, and aesthetic- ideal.
With a flood of recordings, our ears are used to everything these days,
wherever we live.
IMO, two pianos can even come from the same factory and have very different
playing characteristics and sound, depending on how they were shipped,
stored, used/abused, played and especially how they were serviced after the
sale. Steinway keeps the New York/Hamburg difference as small as possible,
but two pianos are never going to be "identical". Thus, playing up the
difference based on the manufacturing location and making generalizations is
faulty reasoning. BTW, there are some great books about the history of
Steinway, the leading piano manufacturer of the 20th century. A great piano
success story indeed. It all starts with a German Klavierbauer by the name
of Steinweg...
Edvard
M. Slater
Mark
Richard Trahan
>
Do you happen to know the manufacturing source and model of the Steinway
used by Arthur Rubinstein to record the Chopin nocturnes? He only
played on Steinways, and the liner notes say the nocturnes were recorded
in Italy. I have every Rubinstein recording, and the piano used for the
nocturnes stands out as having a singularly exquisite tone. When I
bought my Steinway M in 1972 I looked for a piano that had that tone;
it was sheer luck that I found one on the showroom floor in Astoria,
Queens. Do you think the techs intentionally build slight differences
into identical models to enhance sales, or is it just natural variation
of parts and construction?
Rick Hollett
preamps, microphones, recording media} etc., would have a great deal to do
with the percieved quality of the sound. Correct me if I'm wrong
R hollett
"Richard Trahan" <rtr...@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:3DB31EB3...@monmouth.com...
Larry
> Do you think the techs intentionally build slight differences
>into identical models to enhance sales, or is it just natural variation
>of parts and construction?
>
Neither. It is the result of an inability to consistently build a decent piano.
Larry Fletcher
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
http://www.pianosinc.net
H. Emmerson Meyers
would be accurate to say that many of the great artists of the 20th century
preferred the American Steinway, for example, Paderewski, Rachmaninoff,
Horowitz, etc.
"Edvard" <mapsade...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B9D78487.4D3C%mapsade...@hotmail.com...
Jon Regen
Larry's mouth is negative BS. People who are secure with themselves
don't need to spend their time putting others down.
It's sad that he consistently uses this forum to badmouth people and
products, rather than constructively discuss pianos and their related
issues.
Maybe he should see someone to work-through all this anger.
A cheap comment like the one below not only shows that he knows
nothing about the design differences between Hamburg and NY Steinways,
(of which there are many, for specific reasons), but also that he
takes a valid question on this forum and turns it into another one of
his personal vendettas against Steinway, a brand that he doesn't even
sell.
Sad.
Jon
Larry
>I think it's amazing that the only thing that ever comes-out of
>Larry's mouth is negative BS.
That's a bit of an overstatement. You don't like what I had to say about
Steinway pianos, because you hang your ego on being on the "Steinway roster".
>It's sad that he consistently uses this forum to badmouth people and
>products, rather than constructively discuss pianos and their related
>issues.
Another overstatement. I hit a sore spot with you, and you immediately jump to
painting the whole house red.
>Maybe he should see someone to work-through all this anger.
What I said had nothing to do with anger. Your response however, has
*everything* to do with anger. You are the one who is angry sir, not me.
>A cheap comment like the one below not only shows that he knows
>nothing about the design differences between Hamburg and NY Steinways,
>(of which there are many, for specific reasons)
Yes, I know the differences between the two, more than you do, apparently.
There aren't many, other than a couple of models that aren't made in NY, and
there is basically only one specific reason for the few differences that exist.
Do you want to know what they are? I'd tell you, but you'd pitch another hissy
fit and accuse me of having a "personal vendetta" again, so I won't.
Yes, I think I will. Other than the couple of models made in Germany that
aren't made in NY, the main difference between the two is craftsmanship.
Germany has good craftsmanship, NY has spotty craftsmanship. That is the facts
behind my statement which you have been so offended by.
>but also that he
>takes a valid question on this forum and turns it into another one of
>his personal vendettas against Steinway, a brand that he doesn't even
>sell.
>
>Sad.
Well, here is what I said that caused your panties to bunch up:
> It is the result of an inability to consistently build a decent piano.
Apparently you aren't aware of this, being so enamored with having your name
listed on the Steinway roster (along with anyone else who wants to be) but my
remark is commonly accepted view among many technicians and pianists alike, and
is so well discussed that it is old news. It is not a slap at Steinway, it is a
view held by many people. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's just how it
is.
Dave Andrews
<< I think it's amazing that the only thing that ever comes-out of Larry's
mouth is negative BS. >>
Speaking as a former industry participant with a fair amount of piano product
knowledge and experience, and with two years of RMMP experience, your assertion
is 180 degrees out of phase with reality.
<< People who are secure with themselves
don't need to spend their time putting others down. >>
That's another bum rap that all people with strong opinions and leadership
skills have to endure from the great unwashed. Because you cannot deal openly
and honestly with strong opinions contrary to your own, you resort to name
calling. Tsk. Tsk. Bad form, Jon.
<< It's sad that he consistently uses this forum to badmouth people and
products, rather than constructively discuss pianos and their related issues.
>>
I have yet to see him consistently badmouth anyone or anything -- with the
possible exception of the Tourist Attraction, and that doesn't count by any
measure.
<< A cheap comment like the one below not only shows that he knows
nothing about the design differences between Hamburg and NY Steinways,
(of which there are many, for specific reasons), but also that he
takes a valid question on this forum and turns it into another one of
his personal vendettas against Steinway, a brand that he doesn't even
sell.
Sad. >>
He was right, Jon. I've probably played more new Steinways than you have, and
consistency is not their strong suit. You can disagree all you want, but black
is not white, up is not down, and Steinway is not Keebler. They're all
different. Keep your perspective and don't take it as a personal affront when
somebody says something you don't like about your favorite piano. It's not
like he called your mother a name or something.
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
H. Emmerson Meyers
obvious that he knows what he is talking about and his advice and the
generous advice of professionals like him make this an interesting and
informative newsgroup.
I don't think that it is any big deal to say that Steinways are not
particularly consistent from one piano to the other. I am no piano tech but
would have no problem coming to this very same conclusion just from playing
different Steinways on the same showroom floor.
"Jon Regen" <jonr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ba56d7eb.02102...@posting.google.com...
Edvard
larryin...@aol.composer am 21.10.2002 22:56:
> the main difference between the two is craftsmanship.
> Germany has good craftsmanship, NY has spotty craftsmanship.
That's an interesting assertion coming from someone who's an industry expert
(albeit a Bechstein dealer). Thanks for being frank, Larry. Now, no one
seems to be willing to go out on a limb and say that Steinway's product is
incredibly consistant, and the problem seems to be greater in New York, so
what if we examine the possible causes. I'm sure the people at Steinway have
looked at this over the years in attempts to improve consistancy, as is
always neccesary in quality management.
Just for fun, we'd eliminate the plant, and the raw materials. For
subcontracts, dito. The obvious difference is the people managing and
working in the two separate Steinway factories. Here are some questions.
Hiring/Qualification: Do managers and workers get a better education in
Germany? Is there actually a school for carpenters, woodworkers and piano
technicians? Is this better organized in Germany? Incentive: Does Steinway
pay better in Hamburg? Is the cost of living different in these two cities?
Are there more qualified people willing to work in a piano factory in
Hamburg than in New York for other reasons?
I'm interested to read what the educators, business persons, craftspeople,
technicians and economists would say.
Edvard
Christof Pflumm
> Do managers and workers get a better education in
> Germany?
I doubt it. I guess the spread is bigger in the US.
> Is there actually a school for carpenters, woodworkers
Yes.
> and piano technicians?
I don't know.
> Is this better organized in Germany?
Craftmanship is strongly regulated in Germany. It's a traditional
thing. On one hand, it's good, because it sets high standars, on the
other, the rules can also be a handicap.
Bye,
Christof
pTooner
First off, I like Steinways. I prefer American Steinways. Second, I
think there is a place for all pianos with the possible exception of the
cheap chinese and russian ones.
Now that we know where I'm coming from. The major differences between
the Us and Hamburg models is the voicing. Ignoring the obvious fact
that the US doesn't produce the O or A models any longer, the sound that
is in vogue in europe is somewhat different from the one preferred in
the US. Therefore, a Hamburg Steinway sounds a lot more like a
Bechstein for instance than a US model does. BTW, the different hammer
material is a major part of this voicing.
Now, as to consistency; here's my take on it. Steinways are less
consistent than some other pianos, and more so than others. Consistency
is not necessarily all that desirable. If you build each instrument to
the very best it can be, then you will have much more inconsistency than
if you start with the goal of making them all sound alike. The most
inconsistent of all expensive brands, Petrof, is often spoken of quite
highly on this group. It's interesting that the variations among
Steinways is seen as a shortcoing by some. The Chinese pianos are
about the most consistent that I have seen.
Your mileage may vary
Gerry
Larry
>Here are some questions.
>Hiring/Qualification: Do managers and workers get a better education in
>Germany?
Absolutely.
>Is there actually a school for carpenters, woodworkers and piano
>technicians? Is this better organized in Germany?
In Germany, yes, they have to attend trade schools in an
apprentice/journeyman/master craftsman process, and then attain state
certification. It is required, and strictly controlled by government standards.
There is no equivalent in the US. If the factory needs an employee here, there
are no requirements that they have any training or experience in piano
building. They will be taught to do a task, not to build pianos. Usually they
will eventually teach the person a few more tasks so the person can rotate
between jobs periodically to avoid repetitive task medical problems.
>Incentive: Does Steinway pay better in Hamburg?
Because they are using certified master craftsmen, yes, the pay is much higher.
>Are there more qualified people willing to work in a piano factory in
>Hamburg than in New York for other reasons?
Yes. Craftsmanship, and particularly piano craftsmanship, is a source of German
pride. In America, being a piano company employee has the same status as being
an employee in any other factory. It's a job. In Germany, being a master
craftsman in a piano factory has social status implications. People strive to
attain these positions. Many don't make it.
Christof Pflumm
> >Is there actually a school for carpenters, woodworkers and piano
> >technicians? Is this better organized in Germany?
>
> In Germany, yes, they have to attend trade schools in an
> apprentice/journeyman/master craftsman process, and then attain state
> certification.
Yes, that's right. It takes 3 1/2 years to become Piano/Cembalo
builder.
Bye,
Christof
EHpianist
is, in my experience, perfectly true.
Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
"Jon Regen" <jonr...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:ba56d7eb.02102...@posting.google.com...
Edvard
> Usually they
> will eventually teach the person a few more tasks so the person can rotate
> between jobs periodically to avoid repetitive task medical problems.
>
That's sounds so considerate, but leads me to beleive they've had some
lawsuit problems. In the States that can really put a dent in your fiscal
planning ie. hiring-stops, lower salaries, part-timers, lay-offs, which of
course leads to moonlighting. Remember, Steinway can't start using inferior
raw materials, so where else are they going to save money except on
personel.
>> Incentive: Does Steinway pay better in Hamburg?
>
> Because they are using certified master craftsmen, yes, the pay is much
> higher.
>
Very interesting! I guess you can thank the immense power of the German
labor unions and strict goverment regulation of the industry for the quality
of your Hamburg Steinway, Bechstein, Mercedes, BMW, etc..., right? (Too bad
the costs of socialism have brought the Economy to a stillstand.) Remember
that your paying the Hamburg workers' salaries and benefits (which are very
costly in Germany) when you plop down your dollars for a N.Y. Steinway.
It's a global thing, guys.
Regards,
Edvard
Edvard
Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 22.10.2002 10:32 :
> Edvard <mapsade...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Do managers and workers get a better education in
>> Germany?
>
> I doubt it. I guess the spread is bigger in the US.
>
Come on Christof, take off that shroud of false modesty. I'm talking about
industrial management and piano builders. The German Universities' mangement
programs are second only to the very best of the U.S. (Ivy Leauge, Stanford,
etc..) and the people going to the piano building school are coming from the
very best of the German high schools (Abitur).
>> Is there actually a school for carpenters, woodworkers
>
> Yes.
>
In fact, you can't legaly work in one of these trades without a qaulified
education.
>> and piano technicians?
>
> I don't know.
As for the Trade of building pianos, there is a Berufs-und Fachschule für
Instrumentenbau in Ludwigsburg.
siehe "Wie wird mann Klavierbauer" bei:
http://www.klaviere-aachen.de/Ausbildung..htm
For those who don't read German, it says that the state-run trade school is
rather competitive. According to Larry, there's nothing like it in the US.
All the students must do a parallel apprenticeship at a piano factory. The
industry works tightly together with the schools. There's also no tuition,
so the only basis for admission is grades and test scores. I've heard that
for the Meisterprüfung, you have to show that you can design and build a
piano from zero. O.K., its true that some factories (like Schimmel) have
lots of factory-trained assembly-line workers, but I'm sure Steinway has
more of these master craftsmen working in the Hamburg factory.
>
>> Is this better organized in Germany?
>
> Craftmanship is strongly regulated in Germany. It's a traditional
> thing. On one hand, it's good, because it sets high standars, on the
> other, the rules can also be a handicap.
>
The local Chambers of Industry and Trade are optimized for regulating the
quality of workers going into traditional manufacturing, like piano
building, since the older generation is setting the standards and giving the
examination. The shortcomings your thinking of come to the fore in
faster-moving industries like computers, software development, web design,
where the old guys worked with punch-cards. Here they've kept Germany on the
sidelines and driven innovators to Silicon Valley.
I don't know if you read my extremely long-winded post about how I recently
got my piano tuned, but "Mr. Reguild", who existence depends upon being the
son-in-law of a Master-Craftsman and who makes business by talking piano
owners into unneccesary rebuilds, failed his State Master Craftsmen Exam
because his scale-drawings of the piano he designed were not up to
standards. That, even though he learned at the Boesendorfer factory. The
"Artist," who is very sought after by concertizing musicians was good enough
to apprentice in the shop of Steinway's largest German dealer and carries
the title of "Meister."
Regards,
Edvard
Larry
> find your reaction out of line with the simple comment Larry made which
>is, in my experience, perfectly true.
>
>
Thank you, Elena!
You're still a hottie!........ ;-)
pTooner
Larry wrote:
>>From: Edvard
>
>
>>Here are some questions.
>>Hiring/Qualification: Do managers and workers get a better education in
>>Germany?
>
>
> Absolutely.
Well, I'm sure that applies to workers, but I doubt it with management.
Do you have some basis for that opinion??
>>Incentive: Does Steinway pay better in Hamburg?
>
>
> Because they are using certified master craftsmen, yes, the pay is much higher.
Do you have any facts such as the pay scale for each company to back
this up? Frankly, I doubt the truth of it. In any case, I'd be
interested to know what those pay scales are.
Gerry
Chris Aher
I posted the following excerpts on Piano World awhile back on the subject of
S&S NY production. In my day there were significant QA issues. (IMO) There
was (and probably still is) a signfiicant difference between the NY &
Hamburg production staff's training capabilities. The production staff in
NY was trained on the job in a very different manner than the trade
school/master/apprentice model used in Germany. It is my opinion, though,
that this was not the significant factor in the production quality
differences. See below. There where several major rebuilding shops in NYC
in those days that employed moonlighting factory employees. The quality
from these shops often rivaled that of Hamburg. Again IMO.
In those days the salary scale at the S&S factory was basically the
same(low) as most other factories in Brooklyn & Queens. I worked for awhile
second shift after school as a machinist for a factory manufacturing
telephone booths out of stainless steel and was making pretty much the same
pay as I made a few years later at S&S.
Another point is that the executive compensation at S&S, according to the
annual report filed with the SEC, is not very high by current American
corporate standards.
This is a discussion on the cost structure of S&S vs C. Walter:
Begin Excerpt 1
You need to remember that the property in Astoria has been owned by the
company for about 120 years. It levels the playing field somewhat. The only
significant differences would really fall into the burdened production labor
cost and the local corporate tax structure. When all is said and done it my
guess is that those labor costs may be about 10% more than in Indiana.
Remember that S&S production employees are members of a furnature makers
union with almost zero clout.
When I was there about 30 years ago, the pay scale was about the same (very
low) as most ot the other factories in Brooklyn & Queens. Like those other
factories (in many industries) the demographics of the labor force was
interesting. If you have the picture of highly trained German craftsmen
lovingly handcrafting the instruments, that wasn't the way it was. There
were a few of course but there were many workers from Latin America and many
other parts of the world (Including one from JAPAN!) working there. Also
like many other NYC factories, there were a lot of family and friend
connections on production staff.
The bottom line is that the overall cost structure for production is
reasonably close while the retail prices are not.
End Excerpt 1
This is about the current finances of the company and QA when I was there 30
years ago:
Begin Excerpt 2
It is very interesting to look at the S&S annual report and proxy statement
filed with the SEC. It turns out that the revenues of the company split
about 45% pianos and 55% band instruments (Selmer etc.) The reported
executive salaries are not particularly high either. It looks like the
highest paid exec is the pres of the piano div, who makes about 8-10 times
the salary of the average Joe (or Jose) on the line in Astoria in the piano
div. Compare this with the comp package of the former CEO of Baldwin. I
don't think that executive compensation is the real issue in quality control
in this case.
When I was there (about 30 years ago) quality control was definately an
issue, in my opinion. There appeared to me as a employee/technician to be a
number of issues at the time:
1. Insufficient capital investment to replace aging production machinery
leading to poor manufacturing tolerances.
2 Poor engineering decisions (teflon bushings, need I say more?)
3. Ill advised production labor practices. Paying production workers by
piecework is not the way to achieve a quality product in my mind. There is
to much incentive to the workers to cut corners.
4. Executive arrogance (common in corporations even moreso in those days)
both at the CBS and S&S levels: "We're S&S, (or IBM, Chrysler, GM, etc., the
list goes on) and we are above the competition and don't need to pay
attention to our customers."
The company has changed ownership since then and it appears as though there
have significant been changes in the interim. Since I've been out of the
business for the last 20 years and haven't seen a new S&S in that time, I
can't comment directly but I've heard that the instruments have improved in
quality.
Reading between the lines it appears that the real difference in the costing
structure is in the sales and marketing expenses. In other words S&S
customers are paying for "all the other things which make Steinways a legend
in their own minds." (Thanks Hank, good line!) Anybody who knows me will
attest that I don't have much use for sales & marketing BS. In my department
we have a motto: "Results talk, BS walks" (Hey, we're engineers, what do you
expect )
BTW, Another interesting bit of info is that S&S owns production facilities
(for band instruments) in Elkart, IN, the home of Charles Walter Pianos. It
also owns a production facility for the manufacture of piano keys in Poland,
which is not all that far from Estonia.
End excerpt 2
"pTooner" <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3DB5B1A5...@nowhere.net...
Larry
>Well, I'm sure that applies to workers, but I doubt it with management.
> Do you have some basis for that opinion??
Yes, and it was backed up by a couple of the Germans who post here.
>Do you have any facts such as the pay scale for each company to back
>this up? Frankly, I doubt the truth of it. In any case, I'd be
>interested to know what those pay scales are.
The pay scale for just about everything in Germany is higher than in the US. It
has to be, because of the way their tax program works. Also, I've been told by
folks from Bechstein what the pay scale for a certified master craftsman is,
and it was a little staggering.
EHpianist
Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.composer> escribió en el mensaje
news:20021022154743...@mb-fu.aol.com...
Christof Pflumm
> in Beitrag tpptu2k...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de schrieb Christof
> Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 22.10.2002 10:32 :
>
> > Edvard <mapsade...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> Do managers and workers get a better education in
> >> Germany?
> >
> > I doubt it. I guess the spread is bigger in the US.
> >
> Come on Christof, take off that shroud of false modesty.
Take a look at the PISA studie. Germany is middle class regarding
regular school education. Specialized schools and Universities: I
don't know.
Bye,
Christof
Edvard
Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 23.10.2002 9:44 :
>> Come on Christof, take off that shroud of false modesty.
>
> Take a look at the PISA studie. Germany is middle class regarding
> regular school education. Specialized schools and Universities: I
> don't know.
Don't be fooled by the Bild Zeitung interpretation of the PISA numbers or
politicians' election speech scare tactics.
You can read the results and from the OECD here:
http://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/pisa/ergebnisse.htm#International
First of all, look where the US is in the PISA study, only slightly ahead of
Germany. Also, look at the problem of German as a second language in the
schools (Does Finland have this problem? No). In Bavaria 1/5 of the students
have both parents who were born in a foreign country. And look at the PISA-E
study where you can see the differences between the 15 German states
(Länder). Bavaria (the second largest State in population) is right up there
with Korea and Japan.
Another point from p. 44 of the study. I quote:
Hinsichtlich der mittleren Leistungen der 15-Jährigen im Leseverständnistest
gibt es große Unterschiede zwischen den verschiedenen Bildungsgängen.In
Gymnasien liegt die mittlere Leistung naheliegenderweise mit 582 Punkten
erheblich über dem OECD-Durchschnitt und in Realschulen mit 494
Punkten geringfügig darunter.In Integrierten Gesamtschulen und in
Hauptschulen werden Mittelwerte von 459 bzw.394 Punkten erreicht. Die
Differenzen zwischen den Bildungsgängen zeigen sich in allen
Fähigkeitsbereichen.
Besides, we were talking about the level of people who are admitted into the
one national piano-building school in Ludwigsburg. In a class of 30 to 45, I
don't think you have a chance without Abitur. In the U.S., my folks are in
education (now retired) and beleive me the spread in the U.S. is like that
between a Baldwin SF-10 and a modern-day Chickering grand. For example, I
know some Professors who have had to teach american college freshmen to read
and write (and I don't mean foreign students). On the other hand foreign
students entering the best graduate school have research that's ready to
publish, so of course certain US Universities are the place for the
international elite, but a piano company, even Steinway, isn't going to
Harvard with headhunters and bonuses looking for M.B.A.s.
Personally, I went to a highly ranked liberal arts college and grad school
in the U.S. and am by nature a critical thinker. What I mean is, I like to
read the Spiegel too, but I'm afraid as a German student you might be
letting the sarcastic and socially critical tone give you a feeling of
inferiority. What those journalists are trying to say is it could be better
and we can't let things get worse, but on the other hand, it ain't so bad,
Christof.
regards,
Edvard
Christof Pflumm
> in Beitrag tpk7k9k...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de schrieb Christof
> Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 23.10.2002 9:44 :
>
> >> Come on Christof, take off that shroud of false modesty.
> >
> > Take a look at the PISA studie. Germany is middle class regarding
> > regular school education. Specialized schools and Universities: I
> > don't know.
>
> Don't be fooled by the Bild Zeitung
I never read that crap. I prefer Zeit.
> interpretation of the PISA numbers or politicians' election speech
> scare tactics.
IMO, we have a problem with our education and I think I know about a
lot of the problems. But as you stated, the specialized schools are
certainly better.
> Personally, I went to a highly ranked liberal arts college and grad school
> in the U.S. and am by nature a critical thinker. What I mean is, I like to
> read the Spiegel too, but I'm afraid as a German student you might be
Well, I don't like Spiegel so much either. The quality is decreasing
IMO.
> What those journalists are trying to say is it could be better
> and we can't let things get worse, but on the other hand, it ain't so bad,
> Christof.
I know it's not terribly bad (yet), but education was neglected in
recent years IMO. That has to be changed. The most important thing
would be to improve the social status of education. If you are good in
maths, you are a nerd. If you are good in sports, you are the cool
guy. Next, preschool "education" (hasn't much to do with learning like
in school) should be strengthened. If I imagine how much more I could
have learnt in my school time with more motivation...
Bye,
Christof
Edvard
Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 23.10.2002 17:14:
> If I imagine how much more I could
> have learnt in my school time with more motivation...
>
Assuming you were a normal healthy smart playful German boy, the
kindergarten teachers probably crushed any drive you had before you even got
to school. They want everybody to "fit in" and behave. That's the most
important thing to learn. Smart kids suffer the most. Society suffers
because the potential for greatness ist crushed before it can grow. Fit in,
go with the flow, don't stick out, and don't think you're anything special.
Of course there are some alternatives, like Montessori, but they have to
fight to keep alive. I still have faith that in the end German society will
find a way to keep high standards in education without the social problems
of inhumane drilling, where a lot of kids go crazy or rebel, or elitism,
where only the rich can afford a good education. Most everybody knows the
problems and the solutions, it just takes so long for changes to be
implemented.
regards,
Edvard
pTooner
Larry wrote:
>>From: pTooner
>
>
>>Well, I'm sure that applies to workers, but I doubt it with management.
>> Do you have some basis for that opinion??
>
>
>
> Yes, and it was backed up by a couple of the Germans who post here.
I guess I was unclear. I meant "If you have some facts to support that
opinion, please express them here."
>
>
>>Do you have any facts such as the pay scale for each company to back
>>this up? Frankly, I doubt the truth of it. In any case, I'd be
>>interested to know what those pay scales are.
>
>
>
> The pay scale for just about everything in Germany is higher than in the US. It
> has to be, because of the way their tax program works.
Are you indicating that they are paid more, but get to keep less??
Also, I've been told by
> folks from Bechstein what the pay scale for a certified master craftsman is,
> and it was a little staggering.
I suspect we have no equivalent position here, unless it is QA engineer.
Anyway, why not stagger all of us, and give whatever comparisom you
have for New York. It's unlike you to be evasive in any way. If these
are only your suspicions, then say so. I don't have any fact to
contradict you, I just doubted the factualness of what you indicated and
asked for the basis. If it's just your opinion, then fine, say so.
Gerry
Christof Pflumm
> in Beitrag tpfzuxj...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de schrieb Christof
> Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 23.10.2002 17:14:
>
> > If I imagine how much more I could
> > have learnt in my school time with more motivation...
> >
> Assuming you were a normal healthy smart playful German boy, the
> kindergarten teachers probably crushed any drive you had before you even got
> to school. They want everybody to "fit in" and behave.
I have been together with a Kindergarten educator for too long to
accept this statement. Most of those I met were very motivated and
eager to help the children. They even knew how to help children with
specific problems. But they couldn't, because they had to handle 20-30
children. It drove my former girlfriend nuts that she knew exactly how
to treat one of the hyperactives (as an example), but that would have
taken here one or two hours per day, so it was impossible. Pre school
education is massively underfinanced in Germany, and the social status
is hilariously low. IMO that's a desaster, because the time where you
can do most with the kids is in kindergarten.
Bye,
Christof
Christof Pflumm
> Are you indicating that they are paid more, but get to keep less??
As an example, I earn around 3000 Euros per month, I keep 1750. If you
earn more, the percentage you keep becomes lower. My payment is not
bad (I'm working in a University), but I'm expecting a good deal more
outside the University.
Bye,
Christof
pTooner
although perhaps a bit higher than that pay level would justify. Here
it is a sliding scale so that if you make less than a certain amount you
pay a smaller percentage in tax. I don't know at what point that
decrease sets in. Is this tax in addition to the substantial sales tax
that is common in europe? (VAT) If so, then you are indeed being taxed
excessively.
I just checked since I had last years income tax program loaded on this
computer. US rates for last year would have been 15% of "taxable
income" Taxable income is after subtracting something like $3500 per
person for dependents and then another $7600 for "standard deduction".
In essence using a one to one euro to dollar conversion and assuming you
have one dependent (wife?) you would have paid 15% of $21,400 or $3210
in income tax. That would of course be $267.50 per month so you would
have $2732.50 left or a raise of nearly $1000 per mont. Maybe you
should move? I suspect the cost of living might be lower there, I
don't really know.
What do you do at the university if you don't mind saying?
Gerry
Edvard
Pflumm unter lti...@ltihp89.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de am 23.10.2002 19:23:
>
> It drove my former girlfriend nuts that she knew exactly how
> to treat one of the hyperactives (as an example), but that would have
> taken here one or two hours per day, so it was impossible.
>
Sorry if you took my words that way. I agree with you that it's not the
idealistic young people working for a wage around that of a supermarket
checkout clerk who lack motivation or knowledge to help kids develop before
school. Most of them have their heart in the right place and work hard. I
would be offending a lot of my freinds and family if it came out sounding
like the teachers were not motivated. But, as you point out, and as I know
from experience, the system (specifically the ratio of care provider to kid)
prevents them from being able to do their job and makes a nurturing,
learning environment geared to the needs of the individual child
"impossible" to use your word.
On the other hand, as far as I know, pre-school child care and education
(day care, pre-school, everything before age 5) is the privilige of the
well-to-do in the United States.
>
> Pre school education is massively underfinanced in Germany,
>
Considering that a 3 yr. old is guaranteed a Kindergarten spot in Germany
(age 3 to 6, academically oriented pre-school), where you pay less than $100
a month, it's difficult to blame the German taxpayer for not giving more of
her paycheck to the government. Right now there is a lot of arguing going on
about where to cut the budget, but I think higher taxes are not good in the
current economy.
>
>and the social status is hilariously low.
>
Well, the politicians are not helping the awareness of the value of
early-education problem by pandering to those who want to have more all-day
schools, supervised afternoon homework sessions and pre-kindergarten
child-care. These will all end up as places to keep the young ones housed
while both the parents work in order to pay more taxes.
regards,
Edvard
pTooner
> On the other hand, as far as I know, pre-school child care and education
> (day care, pre-school, everything before age 5) is the privilige of the
> well-to-do in the United States.
Boy are you misinformed!! The whole public pre-school, day care,
kindergarten thing is publicly financed at no charge to the user. It
was originally started as something called "Project Head Start" I
believe, which was intended to give poor minority children a "head
start" so they could keep up with main stream children who came from an
interested family environment. Among other things, it fed them
breakfast because they often came from a family environment that would
not. I must admit that at my age, I don't know the exact ages involved
today. I do have a grand daughter who is nine, but she has never gone
to a public school so I don't know the details.
>
>>Pre school education is massively underfinanced in Germany,
>
Education is massively underfinanced everywhere.
>>and the social status is hilariously low.
A major problem in this country also.
>>
>
> Well, the politicians are not helping the awareness of the value of
> early-education problem by pandering to those who want to have more all-day
> schools, supervised afternoon homework sessions and pre-kindergarten
> child-care. These will all end up as places to keep the young ones housed
> while both the parents work in order to pay more taxes.
>
Wow, that is amazingly astute. I, speaking only for myself, am
absolutely convinced that we are trying to cure a problem in the public
school system that actually exists in the family environment.
Gerry
Edvard
nob...@nowhere.net am 23.10.2002 22:06:
>
>> On the other hand, as far as I know, pre-school child care and education
>> (day care, pre-school, everything before age 5) is the privilige of the
>> well-to-do in the United States.
>
> Boy are you misinformed!!
No. I'm afraid you are, Gerry, unless you assume that I'd call a family of
four with earned income of $18,101 well-to-do. According to the US gov.
that's $1 over the poverty line, no chance for Headstart assistance ie.
Headstart is not available to those above the poverty level. Ask your
daughter what she paid five years ago for daycare, that is if she needed
any. The average child care cost for a pre-schooler is $407 monthly. So, at
what income level can you afford that? 20K?, 30K? or when is it better to
stay home until the kids go to public school and not earn (not a choice a
single mother can make). There are quite a few holes to fall through here.
And remember public daycare doesn't attempt to "educate" the child. It's
just group babysitting. Kindergarten in Germany is available for every child
of three with a permanent residence in the country at a cost of around $100
for those not on public assistance. It prepares kids for school.
> The whole public pre-school, day care,
> kindergarten thing is publicly financed at no charge to the user.
Wrong again. HS is partly a subsidy program. Parents pay something like $1
to $12 a day for daycare, based on income.
> It was originally started as something called "Project Head Start" I
> believe, which was intended to give poor minority children a "head
> start" so they could keep up with main stream children who came from an
> interested family environment. Among other things, it fed them
> breakfast because they often came from a family environment that would
> not.
Were talking poverty here.
> I must admit that at my age, I don't know the exact ages involved
> today.
It starts at age 4. Before that it's called Early Head Start.
> I do have a grand daughter who is nine, but she has never gone
> to a public school so I don't know the details.
>
Great, how's she like school? Does she play piano?
regards,
Edvard
Christof Pflumm
> > As an example, I earn around 3000 Euros per month, I keep 1750. If you
> > earn more, the percentage you keep becomes lower. My payment is not
> > bad (I'm working in a University), but I'm expecting a good deal more
> > outside the University.
>
> So you're paying just over 40% income tax.
No. I pay around 20% income tax. The rest is insurance (which I have
to pay nevertheless, so there is no big difference).
> That's comparable to the US, although perhaps a bit higher than that
> pay level would justify. Here it is a sliding scale so that if you
> make less than a certain amount you pay a smaller percentage in tax.
It's progressive here, too.
> I don't know at what point that decrease sets in. Is this tax in
> addition to the substantial sales tax that is common in europe?
> (VAT) If so, then you are indeed being taxed excessively.
Yes, 16% VAT on most products, 7% on food and some other things. I'm
not taxed excessively, it's rather the insurances that cost a lot.
> I just checked since I had last years income tax program
> loaded on this computer. US rates for last year would have been 15%
> of "taxable income" Taxable income is after subtracting something
> like $3500 per person for dependents and then another $7600 for
> "standard deduction".
If you are not married, then you don't pay any tax when your income is
below 861 Euros per month (I've got the table here to look...).
> In essence using a one to one euro to dollar conversion and assuming
> you have one dependent (wife?) you would have paid 15% of $21,400 or
> $3210 in income tax. That would of course be $267.50 per month so
> you would have $2732.50 left or a raise of nearly $1000 per mont.
But I haven't paid health insurance, pension insurance, insurance
against being jobless, I haven't paid the solidarity contribution for
the eastern part of germany and I haven't paid the social insurance
then.
> Maybe you should move?
Because of money? Certainly not. I like it here in Germany.
> I suspect the cost of living might be lower there, I don't really
> know.
The last time I checked the buying power of the euro in relation to
the dollar was 75%. So, yes, living costs should be loweer.
> What do you do at the university if you don't mind saying?
Right now, I'm writing my PhD thesis. It's about the simulation of
dielectric barrier discharges, a special kind of gas discharge (I can
hardly await the comment about "gas discharge"). I have written a
simulation code for this and applied it. Gas discharges are used in
fluorescent tubes and numerous other applications.
Bye,
Christof
Christof Pflumm
> Considering that a 3 yr. old is guaranteed a Kindergarten spot in Germany
> (age 3 to 6, academically oriented pre-school), where you pay less than $100
> a month, it's difficult to blame the German taxpayer for not giving more of
> her paycheck to the government. Right now there is a lot of arguing going on
> about where to cut the budget, but I think higher taxes are not good in the
> current economy.
That's right. I would suggest: Cancel that outrageous subvention for
charcoal mining and use that. That should give you some 100 Million
Euros per year.
> Well, the politicians are not helping the awareness of the value of
> early-education problem by pandering to those who want to have more
> all-day schools, supervised afternoon homework sessions and
> pre-kindergarten child-care. These will all end up as places to keep
> the young ones housed while both the parents work in order to pay
> more taxes.
Are you from Germany? Your analysis and information is quite good.
Bye,
Christof
Edvard
> Are you from Germany? Your analysis and information is quite good.
The first three quarters of my life I was in the USA, the last third in
Germany.
regards,
Edvard
Christof Pflumm
Cool, you had 13/12 lives allready! ;)
Where are you living, if you don't mind telling me?
Bye,
Christof
pTooner
necessary to argue with you. Sorry.
>>I do have a grand daughter who is nine, but she has never gone
>>to a public school so I don't know the details.
>>
>
> Great, how's she like school? Does she play piano?
>
Gerry
pTooner
> No. I pay around 20% income tax. The rest is insurance (which I have
> to pay nevertheless, so there is no big difference).
Ahh, I had fogotten about those. If you refer to government insurance
(We call it "Social Security") it is 7.65% of taxable income in the US
up to a maximum taxable income of $87000.
> Yes, 16% VAT on most products, 7% on food and some other things. I'm
> not taxed excessively, it's rather the insurances that cost a lot.
I'm pleased that you can look at it that way. ;-) It reminds me of
when the trash collection people added a "fuel surcharge" to their
charges. It's not a tax, it's a "surcharge". BTW, sales tax here
probably averages 5 or 6%. It is a state tax so it is different in each
state.
>
>
> If you are not married, then you don't pay any tax when your income is
> below 861 Euros per month (I've got the table here to look...).
It is similar here, but I don't have that number here. I guess it would
be $7600 + 2900. (I was wrong before about dependents. They were $2900
last year not $3500. It changes every year) So $10,500 divided by 12
is $875 per month. Pretty similar.
> But I haven't paid health insurance, pension insurance, insurance
> against being jobless, I haven't paid the solidarity contribution for
> the eastern part of germany and I haven't paid the social insurance
> then.
I am not certain whether these are requirement or electives. In this
country, in most cases one's employer pays health insurance or at least
the major part of it. The employer is required to pay for unemployment
insurance, and I don't think I know what pension insurance is.
>
>
>>Maybe you should move?
>
>
> Because of money? Certainly not. I like it here in Germany.
Sorry, I should have added a smiley there. ;-)
>
>
>>I suspect the cost of living might be lower there, I don't really
>>know.
>
>
> The last time I checked the buying power of the euro in relation to
> the dollar was 75%. So, yes, living costs should be loweer.
>
I don't know if that is a valid comparisom or not. It is very difficult
to compare cost of living meaningfully. I took a few years off recently
and lived in Italy. I found the cost of living extremely high.
However, I expect that if I had more closely copied the style of living
of the typical Italian it would have been much lower. For instance,
they rarely eat out and restaurants are quite expensive. Since I nearly
always ate out, food alone was a dramatic cost. They traveled by
bicycle and moped often. I think you have to be born there to do that
safely. The cost of operating my Mercedes was pretty dramatic too.
However, most Italians don't have cars at all. As I say, it's difficult
to compare. Even in the US it can be difficult. Where I live most
houses sell for about $600,000. (Some MUCH higher) In my other home
town in Florida an equivalent sized house would cost closer to $200,000.
>
>> What do you do at the university if you don't mind saying?
>
>
> Right now, I'm writing my PhD thesis. It's about the simulation of
> dielectric barrier discharges, a special kind of gas discharge (I can
> hardly await the comment about "gas discharge"). I have written a
> simulation code for this and applied it. Gas discharges are used in
> fluorescent tubes and numerous other applications.
>
> Bye,
> Christof
Interestingly, perhaps, my first BS was in Electronic Engineering.
gerry
Christof Pflumm
> > But I haven't paid health insurance, pension insurance, insurance
> > against being jobless, I haven't paid the solidarity contribution for
> > the eastern part of germany and I haven't paid the social insurance
> > then.
>
> I am not certain whether these are requirement or electives.
That's a bit strange - well, to be honest: Idiotic in Germany. If you
earn enough (> 40000 Euros per year), are self-employed or don't work
at all (students for example), health insurance is elective. Pension
insurance: The same, but the limit is somewhere else. Solidarity
contribution, well that's just a tax to build up the former GDR, so
it's required. What I called "Social insurance" is in fact nursing
care insurance (I had to look that up). I think it's a requirement,
but I'm not sure (it's not very much). Insurance against unemployment:
required.
> and I don't think I know what pension insurance is.
Pension insurance is for financing one's pension. In Germany, a big
part of that is paid by the working people to the pensioners, in
return they'll be paid when they are pensioners (hopefully...).
> In this country, in most cases one's employer pays health insurance
> or at least the major part of it. The employer is required to pay
> for unemployment insurance,
Employer and employee pay the same for all social insurances.
Bye,
Christof
Dave Andrews
<< If you refer to government insurance
(We call it "Social Security") it is 7.65% of taxable income in the US
up to a maximum taxable income of $87000. >>
Double that, Gerry. Your employer's portion paid on your behalf is the part of
your pay you don't ever see, but it's in there alright. Those of us who are
self-employed know the tax all too well.
--
With All Due Respect,
Dave Andrews
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists
"Two Hacks Working Out Of A Garage"
Disclaimer: If there are two ways to take my words,
always assume I was after the cheap laugh.
pTooner
less, though. I think it was 14.1% last year. We were trying to
compare taxes between the US and Germany that are paid by the employee.
Gerry
pTooner
Christof Pflumm wrote:
> pTooner <nob...@nowhere.net> writes:
>
>
>>>But I haven't paid health insurance, pension insurance, insurance
>>>against being jobless, I haven't paid the solidarity contribution for
>>>the eastern part of germany and I haven't paid the social insurance
>>>then.
>>
>>I am not certain whether these are requirement or electives.
>
>
> That's a bit strange - well, to be honest: Idiotic in Germany.
I think we lost communication here. I was trying to say I didn't know
whether these were government taxes are private insurance. In this
country most insurance is private and elective.
If you
> earn enough (> 40000 Euros per year), are self-employed or don't work
> at all (students for example), health insurance is elective. Pension
> insurance: The same, but the limit is somewhere else. Solidarity
> contribution, well that's just a tax to build up the former GDR, so
> it's required. What I called "Social insurance" is in fact nursing
> care insurance (I had to look that up). I think it's a requirement,
> but I'm not sure (it's not very much). Insurance against unemployment:
> required.
>
>
>>and I don't think I know what pension insurance is.
>
>
> Pension insurance is for financing one's pension. In Germany, a big
> part of that is paid by the working people to the pensioners, in
> return they'll be paid when they are pensioners (hopefully...).
That sounds exactly like our Social Security program. (Especially the
"hopefully" part.) It also provides for medical services for retirees
and diabled persons. The retirement (pension) portion is a bit meager.
It so happens that I have a letter from them this week. It tells me
that if I decided to start drawing a pension at age 62 it would be $801
per month. If I start at age 66 it would be $1134 and at age 70 it
would be $1571. Interestingly, it also tells me that if I should die
this year, my wife would receive $1061 per month. I don't think I
understand that at all.
Gerry
Dave Andrews
<<YOu are right, Dave, but out of context. >>
Again?!?
Okay, I confess -- I just read the part about SS amounts. Sorry about that.
<< We self-employed pay slightliy less, though. I think it was 14.1% last
year. >>
15.3% of 92.35% of self employed earnings, or basically 14.13% -- you are
correct.
Okay, I'll go back to sleep.
Jon Regen
It's amazing the lengths you'll go to to try to win at any cost. But
you are consistently wrong. And there are obviuously others on this
forum that feel the same way.
I don't 'hang my ego' on being on the Steinway Artist Roster. In
fact, the only thing that being a Steinway Artist does for me, is
allow me to play on Steinways as frequently as possible. Since I am
not paid for my endorsement, why would I go out of my way to lend my
name to them?
Because to ME, (and thousands of others like me), the Steinway Piano
is the gold standard. I choose to play it, because for me, there's no
other piano that can do what a Steinway can do.
That's all I have to say. You can bash me, and Steinway - frankly, I
don't care. I'm on the road 8 months out of the year, touring and
recording, not selling pianos, or badmouthing people on the web.
Originally, I responded to a post about Steinways, and why I play
them. That's where you jumped-in and attacked me. You don't know me -
and have never heard my playing, but you act as if I'm some amateur
karaoke accompanist. That's fine with me - just another example of
how little you know, or want to know.
You can spend all your time trying to get the last word-in. It
doesn't make a difference to me. I just think it's sad that the
majority of people who ask a question like, 'what's
the difference between a NY and Hamburg Steinway,' on this forum, get
a sad answer from you like 'Neither can make a consistent piano.' How
does that help anyone? You can like or sell whatever pianos you want
- but your repeated characterization of current Steinways being sad
instruments, is completely ridiculous. I have played 20 or so B's and
D's on the road in Europe and the US in the last 2 months - all new
production instruments, and all were wonderful. Were they all without
imperfections? No, but they all had their own personality and voice.
How you can say that they are all crap is beyond me - it just isn't
true.
And it seems, from the recent posts on this forum, that I'm not the
only person that feels this way about your negativity.
Jon
M. Slater
"Nattering Nabobs of Negativity". That was a quote from Sprio Agnew I dropped
last week after Larry posted a ridiculously alliterative quote from G. Gordon
Liddy. Larry didn't get it .
I would choose a Steinway. Most people have ask themselves "do I want a
BMW, or, do I want a Steinway". I don't drive, so I would take the Steinway. If
someone else was paying? Bosendorfer in a flash.
Mark
John Baez
wanting to buy a piano for a long time, but I've kept putting it
off because it's a bit scary. I'm not sure how much of a
perfectionist I want to be... I don't even *know* enough to be
a *real* perfectionist... but I don't want to do something stupid...
etc. etc.
Finally I decided a digital one would satisfy me. The ability
to record and edit pieces will matter a lot to me - even enough
to make up for the truly annoying lack of those lovely subtle
resonances that you hear when you hold down the pedal on a real piano.
I can dream of getting the best of both worlds, but I don't want
to cough up the money for a Disklavier... at least not yet.
I just want to get *something* and stop procrastinating, darn it!
I need to wasting my life away by not playing the piano when I
should be doing it every day!
So, I recently tried out some Yamaha Clavinovas, and the CLP 170
sounded pretty good to me. It was better by far than some Rolands
I tried, and a lot better than the CLP 150. Nice bass and nice
sharp attack when I hit the keys hard. Also, I really liked the
action!
So, I think I'm about to take the plunge and buy the darn thing.
I just need to know what other people out there think. Does anyone
have anything they really hate about the CLP 170? Does it fall
apart after 3 years, or something? Or does everyone think it's
pretty good? I don't need anyone telling me it doesn't sound as
good as an excellent real piano; I know that already....
M. Slater
>That was a quote from Sprio Agnew
Spiro. Dang typos.
Mark
Tim Huskisson
in the UK, and get to try all of the Yamahas, Rolands and Technics pianos. I
played REAL piano professionally for 20 years, and this is the first digital
piano that I consider better than all acoustic models in the same price
range.
Tim Huskisson
"John Baez" <ba...@math.removethis.ucr.andthis.edu> wrote in message
news:apnr1f$r1t$1...@glue.ucr.edu...
Larry
>It's amazing the lengths you'll go to to try to win at any cost. But
>you are consistently wrong. And there are obviuously others on this
>forum that feel the same way.
I don't recall that many, if any, who agreed with you. But there were several
who posted to tell you they agreed with me, one of which is a concert pianist,
and several others who thought your reaction was ridiculous.
> Since I am
>not paid for my endorsement, why would I go out of my way to lend my
>name to them?
You seem to think your "name" is of some value to them. Here's a clue - they
don't need you.
>Because to ME, (and thousands of others like me), the Steinway Piano
>is the gold standard.
And to thousands more, it is *not* the "gold standard". Therefore, I am not the
one with a problem here, since I am more than willing to allow you to hold your
position. It is you who gets his panties in a wad if anyone expresses an
opinion other than your own. You think what *you* think is the only possible
view.
>I choose to play it, because for me, there's no other piano that can do what a
Steinway can do.
Again, you think your opinion is the only one that matters. That's what makes
you a putz. Many others choose to play something else, because it *won't* do
for them what they want. And again, I have never once told you or anyone else
they were idiots if they preferred a Steinway. Everyone is entitled to their
own opinion - a point you aren't willing to allow.
>I'm on the road 8 months out of the year, touring and
>recording, not selling pianos, or badmouthing people on the web.
Well yes, you are on the web badmouthing people, as evidenced by your post. As
for being on the road and not selling pianos - are you of the opinion that this
makes you a better person than me? I just wanted to know, because if you
actually do judge a person by what he does instead of who he is, then you truly
are a pathetic individual. Likewise, if you think that being a traveling
medicine show makes you a superior individual, you are nothing more than am
egotistical snot..... of course, that is pretty evident at this point, isn't
it?
>Originally, I responded to a post about Steinways, and why I play
>them. That's where you jumped-in and attacked me.
Yes, more evidence that you are a conceited, self important snob. I didn't
"jump in and attack you". I simply expressed an opinion different than yours,
something everyone here has the right to do. The problem is that you are so
insecure and self centered that you assume anything said that doesn't agree
with you is an attack on you, since your opinion is the only one that matters,
and that any discussion where you have injected yourself automatically switches
to a discussion about you instead of the former subject.
>I just think it's sad that the
>majority of people who ask a question like, 'what's
>the difference between a NY and Hamburg Steinway,' on this forum, get
>a sad answer from you like 'Neither can make a consistent piano.'
That's not what I said. In fact, it isn't even close to what I said. And if you
weren't so closed minded and opinionated, and doggedly determined that the
world agree with you or else, you would have been able to understand what I
said. Let me repeat to you what I said. I said that Hamburg had good
craftsmanship (translation for the objectivity impaired: consistent
workmanship) and that NY was spotty (translation for the objectivity impaired:
some are good, some are not). And whether you like it or not, this is a fact.
> but your repeated characterization of current Steinways being sad
>instruments, is completely ridiculous.
I never said they were "sad instruments". That's just your own hypersensitive
panty wad emotions talking to you.
>How you can say that they are all crap is beyond me - it just isn't
>true.
Man, the words you are putting in my mouth just get more and more hysterical.
Is it that time of the month, John? I never said they were "all crap". You go
back and dig up where I said that and prove it. Otherwise, accept the fact that
you are hysterical.
>And it seems, from the recent posts on this forum, that I'm not the
>only person that feels this way about your negativity.
>
And as it seems, most of those are trolls trying to start something, and most
of the regulars *don't* feel that way. But if it soothes your wounded ego, have
at it.
Larry Fletcher
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
http://www.pianosinc.net
Larry
>Nattering Nabobs of Negativity". That was a quote from Sprio Agnew I dropped
>last week after Larry posted a ridiculously alliterative quote from G.
>Gordon
>Liddy. Larry didn't get it .
I got it. But it was irrelevant to anything, so I ignored it. The "ridiculously
alliterative quote" as you call it was on TV this morning, pitching the book I
referred to, and mentioned the very point I made. Maybe if you were to actually
get as broad a range of news and current events as you think you do, you'd have
seen it.
Robert Wm Watson
word - it is very well made. I cannot vouch for current manufacturing, but I
suspect it is still good.
The ONLY issue I have is that the small felt strip between the keys and the
cabinet has started sticking just a little around middle C. This does not
affect the playability - I only noticed it visually one day. There are
certified Yamaha techs who can adjust the action of Clavinovas, but I'm
deciding whether to have mine "gone into" just for this anomaly.
Other electronic pianos made be made as well as the Clavinovas - probably
none any better.
Good luck
"John Baez" <ba...@math.removethis.ucr.andthis.edu> wrote in message
news:apnr1f$r1t$1...@glue.ucr.edu...
Trey Behan
>Other electronic pianos made be made as well as the Clavinovas - probably
>none any better.
>
>Good luck
>
>"John Baez"
I couldn't be agreed with any further.
"Barb Dylan"
Christof Pflumm
> So, I recently tried out some Yamaha Clavinovas, and the CLP 170
> sounded pretty good to me. It was better by far than some Rolands
> I tried, and a lot better than the CLP 150. Nice bass and nice
> sharp attack when I hit the keys hard. Also, I really liked the
> action!
If you can, try more models. I especially liked the Kawai models with
the AWA hammer action when I went shopping some time ago. They have
improved the action since then, calling it AWA Pro now IRC. There are
a lot of different brands out there, and the variety is great, so
you'll perhaps find something you'll like even more.
Perhaps you can also take a look at the CVP user group, though I don't
know if they have information about the CLPs also.
Bye,
Christof
H. Emmerson Meyers
ties to the Nazi regime during WWII???
"M. Slater" <harpsic...@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20021030003448...@mb-fm.aol.com...
Mike Stevens
"H. Emmerson Meyers" <willia...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:apv5gd$daj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
M. Slater
>From: "H. Emmerson Meyers" willia...@starpower.net
>Date: 11/1/2002 10:15 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <apv5gd$daj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>
very little of this post has to do with me.
Mark
EHpianist
they would frequently invite him to stay at their house and donated money to
the fledgeling Nazi Party.
Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
"H. Emmerson Meyers" <willia...@starpower.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:apv5gd$daj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Larry
>I don't know about Steinway, but the Bechsteins had close ties to Hitler,
>they would frequently invite him to stay at their house and donated money to
>the fledgeling Nazi Party.
This is true. But it was mostly Mrs. Bechstein who did. It was because their
daughter was so ugly they thought she would never find a husband, and Mrs.
Bechstein was playing matchmaker. This was also before Hitler really made known
what his plans were. He dated the ugly daughter for a short period, then as his
more hideous views began to become evident, they broke all ties to him.
Greg K.
"H. Emmerson Meyers" <willia...@starpower.net> wrote:
> Was Hamburg Steinway a German Corp or American. If German, did it have any
> ties to the Nazi regime during WWII???
It was a German branch of an American company. When Germany declared war
on the US, the Germany government seized the company as enemy property
and appointed a Nazi custodian.
Like Steinway New York, Steinway Hamburg contributed, whether willingly
or not, to their country’s war effort, in Hamburg’s case by building
decoy planes and bunk beds and even wooden swastikas (though that last
apparently didn’t sit well with their factory manager). They did still
continue to make some pianos as well.
(Source: “Steinway & Sons,” Lieberman, Yale University Press, pp.
232–235)
Tom Shaw
company in America?
TS
"Greg K." <gr...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gregK-8712B5....@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
EHpianist
only covered the early years of the Nazi Party until Hitler managed to take
control of Bavaria and obviously did not specify anything about the
matchmaking. It's a great book for anyone interested on how and why the
Germany became so influenced by the Nazi's.
Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
"Larry" <larryin...@aol.composer> escribió en el mensaje
news:20021102095054...@mb-mh.aol.com...
Trey Behan
>> It was a German branch of an American company. When Germany declared war
>> on the US, the Germany government seized the company as enemy property
>> and appointed a Nazi custodian.
>> Like Steinway New York, Steinway Hamburg contributed, whether willingly
>> or not, to their country's war effort, in Hamburg's case by building
>> decoy planes and bunk beds and even wooden swastikas (though that last
>> apparently didn't sit well with their factory manager). They did still
>> continue to make some pianos as well.
>>
>> (Source: "Steinway & Sons," Lieberman, Yale University Press, pp.
>> 232-235)
Then Tom Shaw wrote:
>How can you figure out if it was an American company in Germany or a German
>company in America?
By either (1) Re-living your Twenties via a shellac 78 of Spike Jones' "Der
Fuerher's Face" on a crank-powered Victrola, or (2) Reading one (or five)
easily-obtainable and well-documented books on the subject.
Let's try (2): During WWII, the American Steinway factory built USO pianos and
major components for the WACO GCA gliders deemed indispensible (but secretly
highly-dispensible, along with their crews) by Army invasion commanders. S&S
reportedly also constructed a number of coffins, which---with respect to the
questionable success of the GCA glider program---represented an early example
of follow-up marketing (I'm a pilot and pilot-historian).
Der Hamburger Steinweg-Workenen (sorry, German friends, for the mangled
translation) were valued most by the Third Reich for foundry capability. It is
probable that artillery components were produced there, and I wouldn't be
surprised to learn that "Deutschland Uber Alles" was sung around a few of its
musical products. Hint: This was GERMANY! In the 1940's!!!
Since all this nationalistic nefariousness went on six decades ago, and since
America seems to have a lot more important international issues to deal with
*at present* (i.e. Coca-Cola stock prices in countries of the Axis Of Evil), I
marvel at even an iota of ascribed relevance to this rather microscopic aspect
of a bygone era.
I strongly urge further reading on this subject, not only for those who are
still looking for microfische in pumpkins, but for those who seek the truth.
The Steinway Story is a matter of open record, and *can* represent a paradigm
of successful American industrial immigration.
Please note: I am no particular fan of Steinway & Sons at the moment. I aim a
newly-critical eye at this firm's marketing and production standards based on
changes I've observed in both, from close range. But I continue to discern a
canyon of difference between opinion informed by experience and negativism
solidified by prejudice.
Trey Behan
Tom Shaw
word for it.
TS
"Trey Behan" <trey...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021104134438...@mb-mu.aol.com...
Richard Galassini
>ties to the Nazi regime during WWII???
The company treaded a very thin line during WWII and German ads for the company
stated "No Non-Aryans in management or ownership".
Also the letters between the brothers that ran each factory are missing from
the late 1930s. (All others have been preserved).
source - "The Steinway Saga" by D.W. Fostle 1995
Additionally, there is a copy of a letter from a Steinway to a supplier that
was signed "Heil Hitler" in the book.
my 2 cents,
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila,. Pa.
1 (800) 394-1117
URL:http://voce88.tripod.com/richspianopage
BG
declaration, no doubt!
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:01:31 -0600, "Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net>
wrote:
fernand...@gmail.com
> "M. Slater" wrote:
> >
>
> Do you happen to know the manufacturing source and model of the Steinway
> used by Arthur Rubinstein to record the Chopin nocturnes? He only
> played on Steinways, and the liner notes say the nocturnes were recorded
> in Italy. I have every Rubinstein recording, and the piano used for the
> nocturnes stands out as having a singularly exquisite tone. When I
> bought my Steinway M in 1972 I looked for a piano that had that tone;
> it was sheer luck that I found one on the showroom floor in Astoria,
> Queens. Do you think the techs intentionally build slight differences
> into identical models to enhance sales, or is it just natural variation
> of parts and construction?
Hello, being an Arthur Rubinstein fan, I know for a fact that he had one piano that he chose at the Hamburg Steinway factory and that particular piano was the only piano he played publicly, this piano was shipped all over the world for his concerts. One time this piano fell off a crane and it was badly damaged, but the Hamburg Factory restored it to new condition for him, here is a video of the day he went to the factory to test the piano after it was restored for him. Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez04D5QzEYs&t=448s