Opinions on Knabe
Crash Gordon
I have been considering buying piano for my 7 year old. Have been looking at Yamaha GP1 GH1 or Knabe KN520 or KN590. Anyone (I' sure some out there does) have opinion on price/quality of the Knabe?
I haven't played in 30 years (too busy)...but will probably take lessons along with my daughter, since life is a little less demanding now.
Opinions greatly appreciated...as well as alternative suggestions. (we want to stay with grand style due to size of room it will be in and the acoustics of the house in general)
Thanks!
Rob
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"Crash Gordon"
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J.W. Holmes
(PDtek) wrote:
>>looking at Yamaha GP1 GH1 or Knabe KN520 or KN590. Anyone (I' sure some =
>>out there does) have opinion on price/quality of the Knabe?
>>
>>
>
>Boy, I really hate to open this can of worms again, but Knabe is made by Young
>Chang. (Gasp from the crowd). The Knabe has a few features that are different
>from the Young Chang like walnut hammer cores and a hinged lip on the fall
>board. I believe quality is comparable in the above mentioned models but dollar
>for dollar, I would probably go with Yamaha.
>
> Dave Bunch Piano Service
> & Certified PianoDisc Technician
> members.aol.com/pdtek/piano.htm
This is a question to salesmen(women) of Young Chang. Do the Young Chang
Corporate personnel think that people don't know that today's Knabe is not
the Knabe of Baltimore, MD, and is really just a Young Chang?
I am curious as to what the managers of Young Chang think that a buyer will
perceive about the connection between the Young Chang Knabe, and a Knabe of
the early ninety hundreds. I mean are the scale designs even similar? If
not, then what is the point
JW Holmes
Crash Gordon
If you read the really beautiful Knabe brochure it alludes to the rich history...but never mentions that they are NOW made elsewhere (anywhere for that matter). Kinda misleading.
Rob
J.W. Holmes wrote in message <76jvab$1hq$1...@clarknet.clark.net>...
Dave Zappa
>
> In article <19990101194401...@ng93.aol.com> , pd...@aol.com
> (PDtek) wrote:
>
> >>looking at Yamaha GP1 GH1 or Knabe KN520 or KN590. Anyone (I' sure some =
> >>out there does) have opinion on price/quality of the Knabe?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Boy, I really hate to open this can of worms again, but Knabe is made by Young
> >Chang. (Gasp from the crowd). The Knabe has a few features that are different
> >from the Young Chang like walnut hammer cores and a hinged lip on the fall
> >board. I believe quality is comparable in the above mentioned models but dollar
> >for dollar, I would probably go with Yamaha.
First off, I'd like to point out that Dave is a PianoDisc technician,
which could influence an opinion to the Knabe (since they are marketed
by the PianoDisc Co). I, on the other hand am a Yamaha salesperson
which could influence an opposite opinion. What's weird here is that
when comparing the GP1 to the Korean stuff (like a KN590) I'd actually
prefer the Knabe. The GP1 is a good consumer piano, don't get me wrong,
but I think the bigger Korean pianos (5'3" & up) perform as well or
better than the GP1. The GH1 is a different story....
>
> This is a question to salesmen(women) of Young Chang. Do the Young Chang
> Corporate personnel think that people don't know that today's Knabe is not
> the Knabe of Baltimore, MD, and is really just a Young Chang?
>
> I am curious as to what the managers of Young Chang think that a buyer will
> perceive about the connection between the Young Chang Knabe, and a Knabe of
> the early ninety hundreds. I mean are the scale designs even similar? If
> not, then what is the point
>
> JW Holmes
JW:
Young Chang is nothing more than an OEM for PianoDisc/Knabe. YC has
nothing to do with marketing, etc.
I can't speak to what the managers of PianoDisc think about the
connection with Baltimore Knabe, or what a consumer might perceive. I
would suspect that the corporate line is Young Chang builds an
acceptable piano for this particular market niche. I also suspect it is
NOT based on old Knabe scales but perhaps there are some minor design
differences that may or may not have been influenced by Knabe Baltimore
that are used as marketing tools by PianoDisc to differentiate the Knabe
from Young Chang/Weber, etc.. Then you have the front line salespeople
who either tell you the truth as they know it, or who fabricate complete
bullshit regarding the connection.
I don't believe the scale designs are similar, so what's the point of
using the name? Trademarks & names are a commodity. It's been this way
for decades. I don't think the intention is to "fool" anyone. It's just
the way it is in business. Wurlitzer bought Chickering from Aeolian,
then Baldwin bought Wurliter. The Wurlizter grand pianos built today
are Samick designed and built & marketed by Baldwin. Kohler & Campbell
is owned, manufactured and marketed by Samick. The Hyundai piano is
owned by Hyundai, built by Samick and marketed by an import company out
east. This is common information, and any salesperson who hopes to put
one over on a consumer stands to get burned 9 out of 10 times and won't
last long.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
PDtek
>out there does) have opinion on price/quality of the Knabe?
>
>
Boy, I really hate to open this can of worms again, but Knabe is made by Young
Chang. (Gasp from the crowd). The Knabe has a few features that are different
from the Young Chang like walnut hammer cores and a hinged lip on the fall
board. I believe quality is comparable in the above mentioned models but dollar
for dollar, I would probably go with Yamaha.
Dave Bunch Piano Service
pTooner
J.W. Holmes wrote:
>
> This is a question to salesmen(women) of Young Chang. Do the Young Chang
> Corporate personnel think that people don't know that today's Knabe is not
> the Knabe of Baltimore, MD, and is really just a Young Chang?
>
> I am curious as to what the managers of Young Chang think that a buyer will
> perceive about the connection between the Young Chang Knabe, and a Knabe of
> the early ninety hundreds. I mean are the scale designs even similar? If
> not, then what is the point
>
> JW Holmes
In this news group you get a false impression as to what the "average" piano buyer
is looking for. The fact is that Samick sells many times the number of pianos that
Steinway does. Sooooo, the reason for stencils like Knabe is it sells more pianos.
To use an example I am more familiar with, it is far easier to sell a Kohler &
Campbell than it is to sell a Samick. I suspect that many buyers vaguely remember
having heard of K&C at some time in the distant past, and probably aren't really
aware that those old K&C's weren't made in Korea. For what ever reason, I'm sure
the piano salesmen will verify that it is easier to sell those old names than the
new asian names on the same piano. BTW, remember that Yamaha used the Everett name
for many years, and they already had good brand recognition from their motorcycles.
Gerry
Jan Nijhuis
was the frame. Obviously Asian.
Interesting, that the PianoDisc folks don't mention country of origin in their advertisements; the top button on their web-site (http://www.pianodisc.com) is their mission statement.
They are a Christian organization, and promote Family Radio. No matter how you may feel about the religion, it would seem that they would be more forthcoming with country of origin.
The website also has a seven bullet list of owners and fans of the Knabe Piano, and an historical link to reference from the (1912) edition of Pianos and their makers.
That said, I've played the new Knabe's and they seem to be quite decent home pianos. The salesman I spoke with hinted that PianoDisc bought the Knabe name because it "looked better on
the fallboard" than the PianoDisc logo. Yeah, that in spades!!! I'm sure they can sell many more pianos with "old english" than the "Mixed Helvetica Bold/Italic" name.
I cannot beleive that the Burgett Brothers, owners of PianoDisc, who are making the Mason & Hamlin line in Haverhill, MA are any less interested in the quality of the Knabe. I'm sure
that they are built to a price point, and are of reasonable quality for the price that you would pay for them. If "Made in the USA" is that important. (or if "Made in Korea" is that
offensive) then look elsewhere for a piano.
A fact of life is that the (acoustic) piano industry is in decline. It isn't the fault of the industry, but of the modern lifestyle and new and amuzements for the people.
As a generalization, almost any piano that is built today is going to be better than one that was built 20 years ago.
Crash Gordon wrote:
> Welp, that was another question of mine (or rather statement to be)...having spent many years in Ballmore Maryland and lots of old Knabe's..
>
> If you read the really beautiful Knabe brochure it alludes to the rich history...but never mentions that they are NOW made elsewhere (anywhere for that matter). Kinda misleading.
>
> Rob
>
> J.W. Holmes wrote in message <76jvab$1hq$1...@clarknet.clark.net>...
> |In article <19990101194401...@ng93.aol.com> , pd...@aol.com
> |(PDtek) wrote:
> |
Jory Olson
>A fact of life is that the (acoustic) piano industry is in decline. It
isn't the fault of the industry, but of the modern lifestyle and new and
amuzements for the people.
What decline? The acoustic piano industry hasn't been this good since the
early sixties. Acoustic piano sales for 1998 were up over 12 percent over
1997. Before that most every year was down from the previous year. My
source? December 1998 "Better Homes and Gardens".
Haven't you noticed that just about every magazine has done an article on
acoustic pianos? Martha Stewart did a TV episode with a visit to the
Steinway factory. Better Homes and Gardens did an article on buying a
piano. Even "Compressor" magazine, a trade magazine for Petroleum engineers
had an article about building Steinways. Both National Public Radio and CNN
did spots on Steinways. Go to:
http://www.steinway.com/html/concert/lyra/lyra_9801/lyra9801-2.html and
check out how many times Steinway was in the media. This is not just good
marketing this is a national trend. Ask your technician if they've ever
seen a year this good. Why do you think Steinway has been pushing their
"Crown Jewel" collection so hard?
As the Boomer age, they're returning to their roots and buying pianos. The
acoustic piano industry hasn't been this good in 30 years. Where have you
been?
Jory
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VOCE88
>>out there does) have opinion on price/quality of the Knabe?
>Boy, I really hate to open this can of worms again, but Knabe is made by
>Young
>Chang. (Gasp from the crowd). The Knabe has a few features that are different
>from the Young Chang like walnut hammer cores and a hinged lip on the fall
>board. I believe quality is comparable in the above mentioned models but
>dollar
>for dollar, I would probably go with Yamaha.
>
> Dave Bunch Piano Service
> & Certified PianoDisc Technician
> members.aol.com/pdtek/piano.htm
Wait a minute, Dave. Are you saying that a GP 1 or a GH 1 would service this
family better than a YC Pramberger series ?
We all know that the YC sells for less for obvious economic reasons and the
customer can buy a 6'1" for the same money as a GH 1. I won't even touch the GP
1. I have seen a GP 1 with a FLAKEBOARD RIM !! (Will DZappa confirm ?) These
Yamaha pianos are only being built to be cheap. They are certainly not the
quality of the C series or older G series.
Dave, please don't join the masses that feel just because it says Yamaha on it
it must be good (Remember the LU -11 ?). You are brighter than that.
getting tired,
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
1 800 394 1117
VOCE88
>the fault of the industry, but of the modern lifestyle and new and amuzements
>for the people.
As for facts - this year and the previous year have seen a resurgence of piano
(acoustic) sales. Nationally sales were up over 8 % through the 3rd quarter of
1998 - and 1997 was nationally upover 1996. Cunningham Piano Co. experienced a
21 % increase in 1998. At least for now, it doesn't sound like an industry in
decline.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co
Phila.,Pa.
1 800 394 1117
Dave Zappa
> A fact of life is that the (acoustic) piano industry is in decline.
It is? The acoustic piano industry, while experiencing a significant
decline over the 60's - 80's is now enjoying record sales (although
nowhere near the numbers prior to the 60's granted).
Delwin D Fandrich
Jan Nijhuis wrote:
> .... A fact of life is that the (acoustic) piano industry is in decline. It isn't the fault of the industry, but of the modern lifestyle and new and amuzements for the people.
I question this comment. I do think that much of the difficulty that the piano industry is having today is of its own making. It has totally ignored a major part of its potential
market. That is the segment of the population that already plays the piano and owns a piano. It has provided no compelling reason to take that 60 year old grand piano -- the one that
has seen better days -- down to the local piano store and trade it in for a new one. Most folks who currently own pianos know -- or at least think that they know -- that old pianos are
better than new pianos. There is a strong perception, largely justified, that their old piano was made to a higher standard using better materials than is available today. They also
know -- and this really is my point -- that the acoustical design of most pianos has not changed appreciably since the late 1870's or so. Even most of the recently introduced pianos are
just warmed over versions of older pianos long out of production.
If the auto industry had treated its customer base the way the piano industry has, we would all be driving 1932 Fords with nickel plated flathead V-8's and polyester finishes. The vast
majority of car buyers don't buy new cars because they need them. They buy because they want them. They want them because they offer some new level of performance or comfort unavailable
in their current car. If the new cars offered were just like the existing cars, but with a shinier finish, sales would plummet and the auto industry would self-destruct. Just like the
piano industry is.
The piano industry is a finite one. Only so many people are going buy pianos and learn to play them. Any industry that writes off a large portion of its potential customer base is going
to be in trouble. And this is just what the piano industry has done.
It can survive only so long by offering cheaper pianos, shinier pianos and pianos with more musically meaningless 'features.'
Surely it is a sad comment on the industry as a whole that a growing number of people are turning to the piano rebuilding/remanufacturing industry to get the high performance piano of
their dreams.
> As a generalization, almost any piano that is built today is going to be better than one that was built 20 years ago.
Many piano technicians and rebuilders/remanufacturers would question this statement. More to my point, is the fact that, as a generalization, the piano buyers perception is that a piano
built 80 years ago is better than one built today.
Sorry this has gotten so long. I'll end my rant now.
Regards,
Del
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Designer & Builder
Hoquiam, Washington USA
http://pianobuilders.olynet.com
PDtek
>family better than a YC Pramberger series ?
>
>
No, I would go with a PG-185, but I said "dollar for dollar" since these
Yamahas would be 3 to 4 thousand less than Knabe(YC).(At least that is how they
are priced around here) With the difference in price, it's a closer call.I also
think that if they wanted to sell or trade up in the future, the Yamaha would
hold on to more of its value. It is simply a more recognized and respected name
among the piano buying public.
And no, I don't think a piano is great just because it's a Yamaha, every since
I first encountered my first P-202. And I'm the guy that keeps defending Young
Changs on the music makers list. Any way, I do get your point.
Dave Bunch
cv...@my-dejanews.com
>
> . . . much of the difficulty that the
piano industry is having today is of its own making. It has totally ignored a
major part of its potential
> market. That is the segment of the population that already plays the piano
and owns a piano. It has provided no compelling reason to take that 60 year
old grand piano -- the one that
> has seen better days -- down to the local piano store and trade it in for a
new one.
The defenders of the industry would point out that firms such as S&S and M&H
are selling everything they can produce, so "What's the problem?" As you
point out, they are essentially selling reproductions of antiques but the
strong economy has enabled them to sell out the limited number of instruments
they can produce.
The companies offering relatively new scales are the entry-level and mid-level
Asians, but the material limitations prevent their instruments from improving
upon (or even matching) the tone quality of the established North American and
European brands. An exception is Charles Walter, but they are just a small
firm.
>
> The piano industry is a finite one. Only so many people are going buy pianos
and learn to play them.
To some extent that number can be increased through education and a shift away
from the worship of sports above all else.
> Any industry that writes off a large portion of its
potential customer base is going
> to be in trouble. And this is just what the piano industry has done.
>
> It can survive only so long by offering cheaper pianos, shinier pianos and
pianos with more musically meaningless 'features.'
>
> Surely it is a sad comment on the industry as a whole that a growing number of
people are turning to the piano rebuilding/remanufacturing industry to get the
high performance piano of
> their dreams.
>
>
> Del
> Delwin D Fandrich
> Piano Designer & Builder
> Hoquiam, Washington USA
> http://pianobuilders.olynet.com
>
Perhaps the new management at Baldwin, having returned to maple from poplar,
will now consider replacing it's old grand scales with new designs . . . We
can hope, can't we?
Cork Van Den Handel
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Tom Shaw
on their grands?
TS
cv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Big snip
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> Just curiousity but is there something wrong with the old Baldwin scales
> on their grands?
> TS
>
Hi, Tom.
Within the context of Del's comments regarding old piano designs, virtually
all current scales in production share many of the same problems to a greater
or lesser extent, including a dead octave in the treble (in which technicians
rev up the hammers to minimize the issue) and problems at the various breaks,
particularly the tenor/bass break. Del believes that new designs (including
bridges, ribs, and soundboards) can eliminate or minimize these and other
issues.
My comment was not intended to be a slam on Baldwin's scales; instead, I chose
Baldwin as a large manufacturer whose management MIGHT try to break out of the
antique reproduction business to offer an improved design, something I cannot
imagine S&S doing (for example).
If there's interest in design shortcomings I hope Del will pick up the thread
again.
Best,
Patrick Mills
>
>My comment was not intended to be a slam on Baldwin's scales; instead, I chose
>Baldwin as a large manufacturer whose management MIGHT try to break out of the
>antique reproduction business to offer an improved design, something I cannot
>imagine S&S doing (for example).
>
>If there's interest in design shortcomings I hope Del will pick up the thread
>again.
>
>Best,
>Cork Van Den Handel
The web address below has some fascinating observations by Del
Fandrich on the shortcomings of old stringing scales and how more
modern techniques could be used to improve them. These comments make
me want to hear (and play) one of the new Charles Walter grands
(designed by Del Fandrich) more than ever (If anyone has done so, I
would love to read their comments):
http://www.olynet.com/users/pianobuilders/newsletter.html
(This link seems to load really slowly from my location - your mileage
may vary. Once the page loads, scroll down to the section on "Strings
and Stringing Scales".)
-------------------------------------------------------
plm...@ix.netcom.com
SEMarcus
"My comment was not intended to be a slam on Baldwin's scales...
If there's interest in design shortcomings I hope Del will pick up the thread
again."
Interestingly enough, Del worked for Baldwin in the 1980's and contributed to
some of their scale designs and modifications. Perhaps Del can expound upon
what impact he had on Baldwin pianos then and now, and what disappointments (if
any) he experienced during his years with that company.
(Sorry if this puts you on the spot, Del!)
Kindest regards,
Steve Marcus (SEMa...@aol.com)
http://members.delphi.com/stevemarcus/index.html
Director of Sales, THE BEAUTIFUL SOUND, INC.
http://www.qrsmusic.com/mrktng/dealers/Beautsound/BeautSound.htm