Advice Needed: 5'10" Grand - Boston vs. Kawai
Ryanjch
following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
Boston GP-178
Kawai RX-2 (a new model to replace the KG-2)
What would be a reasonable price to pay for each of these Grands?
Thank you very much.
Ryan. < Please Reply to this NewsGroup >
BOSTONDOVE
both
manufactured in the same factory, but that's where the similarity ends.
All Boston pianos are designed (engineered) completely by Steinway. They
are
manufactured by Kawai on an "OEM" basis, which essentially means that
Kawai
manufactures the piano to Steinway's exact specifications. This is far
different
from what is called a "stencil" brand. A "stencil" is generally a stock
design of the manufacturer with someone else's name on it. The Boston is
not a stencil; it's a completely original Steinway & Sons design. It's
sort of like if GE wanted
a TV manufactured for them, and they had the design, but needed
manufacturing
capacity to build it. They might go to Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Matsushita,
etc. They
would get prices from each one and evaluate other factors such as the
ability of the factory to deliver on time, the factory's ability to
deliver the desired quality level, etc. That is the process Steinway went
through when it went into the Boston business. Steinway engineers
designed the piano, then the company went to look for someone to
manufacture it. After visiting a large number of potential manufacturers,
Kawai was chosen, for a number of reasons.
Bottom line: the Boston piano (introduced in late 1991) is the first
really new line of pianos to come along in many moons. What makes it
unique is the Steinway
design. You will hear the difference between the Boston GP-178 and the
Kawai
RX-2 if you play them side by side. You can then make up your own mind.
Regarding price, the Boston will probably cost you a little more than the
Kawai, but you're getting more piano. Also, most Boston dealers will
guarantee you a 100% trade in on a new Steinway grand, should you ever
want to move up. No Kawai dealer is likely to do that for you.
For more information, fell free to give me a call at 718-204-3147 - that's
a direct
line to my desk. I hope this has been helpful to you, despite the little
conflict of interest you will notice under my name.
By the way, this is my first time to read or write a message in this
group.
Best regards,
Robert F. Dove (Bob)
Executive V.P./General Manager
Boston Piano Co., Inc.
Gil G Silberman
>Your advice, experience (good or bad) and recommendation on the
>following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
> Boston GP-178
> Kawai RX-2 (a new model to replace the KG-2)
Hey, is there a Boston FAQ file?
When I was shopping a few years ago, Boston won hands down. The action was
better than Kawai, and the sound was warmer, had a lot more character. You know
that Kawai makes Bostons with design help from Steinway, don't you? I guess
it all boils down to price (Boston is more expensive),
and the characteristics of the individual piano
you choose. As automated as they are in Japan, there is still a big variation
from one piano to another. You can get a great Kawaii, or a so-so Kawaii. I
assume it is the same for Bostons, but I have not played too many. Also, be
aware that pianos do not come out of the factory perfectly voiced or regulated,
and may be thrown out of tune by shipping, temperature changes, etc. It is up
to the individual dealer to do some final prep work. From what I hear, this
is less of an issue for Japanese pianos than, say, Steinways, where serious
pianists often spend thousands of dollars getting the action right on a
brand new piano. So in addition to the underlying quality of the sound and
action, which varies from piano to piano, you have some variation in how well
the piano is prepared. All this makes it very hard to say, on a general
level, which is the better piano. But all things being equal, I think most
people prefer Boston to Kawaii, particularly for classical (as opposed to
Jazz) music. Either way, you are in the upper middle (or lower upper) end
of the piano spectrum, so you will get a fine instrument.
Of course, I know less than most people around here. I just like to write.
Gil G Silberman
BOSTONDOVE <bosto...@aol.com> wrote:
>All Boston pianos are designed (engineered) completely by Steinway.
>. . . Kawai manufactures the piano to Steinway's exact specifications.
>. . . it's a completely original Steinway & Sons design. It's
>sort of like if GE wanted a TV manufactured for them, and they had
>the design, but needed manufacturing
>capacity to build it. They might go to Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Matsushita,
>etc. They
>would get prices from each one and evaluate other factors such as the
>ability of the factory to deliver on time, the factory's ability to
>deliver the desired quality level, etc.
Uh, I hope it's a little more sophisticated than TV's. Televisions
are identical assemblages of electronic components, and the real test
is whether it works or not when you turn it on, and to a lesser
extent what kind of gizmos are included and what shape of injection
molded plastic is unsed on the outside. But pianos are supposed
to have character, warmth. No two are the same. I would use an
analogy that perhaps Jaguar wanted to build some extra cars so they
contracted with a Honda plant. Kawai is known for better quality
control than Steinway but is just not as good a piano. Kind of
like Honda and Jaguar.
I know that reliability, pricing, delivery times, and so on are
important business considerations. But when you set out to build
a good piano -- pianos, after all, are highly specialized
small quantity luxury goods -- you shouldn't skimp on the
fundamentals in the interest of efficiency. Even listening
to the engineers can be a bad idea, if the engineers do not
respect the heritage of the instrument. You need look no farther
than Steinway's bad experience from the CBS era to
confirm that engineers can make poor design choices.
>Steinway engineers
>designed the piano, then the company went to look for someone to
>manufacture it. . . What makes it
>unique is the Steinway design.
Steinway this, Steinway that. Does Steinway do a little blessing
ceremony on the assembly line as the pianos roll out? Seriously
now, I suspect Kawai has more to do with the overall quality of
the instrument than you let on. Whatever the piano's design, you
will not have a good instrument without good wood, good
manufacturing process, quality control, skilled workers, etc.
The design does not make the piano, the factory does.
Isn't one of the Korean companies making pianos on a Kawai
design, or is it a Yamaha? Whatever it is, the pianos aren't
very good.
Is this a joint venture or a pure OEM deal? Even if Kawai is
doing this strictly on a fee for service basis, it is still
a "partner" in a broader sense. It is committing factory space --
and future profits -- to the success of this venture. I'm sure
that Kawai, no less than Steinway, is interested in ensuring
that the pianos are made well. Kawai hires the employees, runs
the factory. So my question is what is Steinway's involvement?
Do they have agents out there on the factory floor? Are they
overseeing the purchase, storage, and use of materials? Do they
inspect every piano as it is produced? Who is in charge of
the tunings, regulation, etc? Does Steinway train the workers?
Etc., etc. And given all of this, how much of the success of the
piano (it is clearly a good piano) is dues to Steinway's
design and supervision, and how much to Kawai's overall pianomaking
ability?
>Also, most Boston dealers will
>guarantee you a 100% trade in on a new Steinway grand, should you ever
>want to move up. No Kawai dealer is likely to do that for you.
Another marketing gimmick? Do you negotiate your best price first,
then tell the salesperson you happen to have a Boston to trade in?
Or do you have to mention your old Boston up-front, in which
case the salesperson refuses to bargain on the Steinway price? If
it's the latter, it isn't much of a guarantee.
>For more information, fell free to give me a call at 718-204-3147 - that's
>a direct
>line to my desk. I hope this has been helpful to you, despite the little
>conflict of interest you will notice under my name.
>By the way, this is my first time to read or write a message in this
>group.
Welcome. And don't get me wrong. Your company makes a fine piano,
at a very attractive price (moderately more money than a Kawai/Yamaha
for what is probably a considerably better instrument).
I also admire the way you stand behind it. I am merely interested
in separating out issues having to do with the quality of the instrument
itself from the sales stuff about Steinway.
M. Petri
>the design, but needed manufacturing capacity to build it. They might >go
>to Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Matsushita, etc. They
>would get prices from each one and evaluate other factors such as the
>ability of the factory to deliver on time, the factory's ability to
>designed the piano, then the company went to look for someone to
>Kawai was chosen, for a number of reasons.
Oh. If this was a really parallel operation... then Steinway would buy out
Kawai because they were competing for government military contracts, and
then they would sell off both the Steinway and Kawai piano brands names to
some French company that was looking for inroads to the American
marketplace. That company would then sell their NEW products under the
Steinway name, and slap a Kawai name badge on the older models.
Oh... wait. I'm getting this whole thing mixed up with GE, RCA, and
Thompson.
Sorry.
CQUINNN
_______________________
Christopher J. Quinn
Brooklyn, Earth
"You're dead son. Get yourself buried." - JJH
_______________________
BOSTONDOVE
the
nice comments about the Boston pianos. You make several very good points.
There are only two things I would like to comment on. First, the
importance of the
design. As you pointed out, the quality of the manufacturing process is
very
important. We believe at Steinway that there are three parts to building
a good
piano (or any manufactured product, for that matter): DESIGN, MATERIALS, &
METHOD OF CONSTRUCTION. Unless all three are good, the piano won't be
good. We (Steinway) have control over the design and the materials. The
design is Steinway; the materials are what we specify them to be. The
method of
construction is the part which is more difficult to control in someone
else's plant. However, we picked that plant because we believed it could
do the best job
for what we required, e.g., certain important methods were done in the
traditional
manner, like taking bearing, individual plate fitting, etc. As you point
out, however, the manufacturing process at Kawai is not going to be that
different for
Boston instruments or Kawai instruments. EXCEPT, that we do train their
final
regulators and voicers to produce the tone and feel we want. That's OUR
people
doing that training, not theirs. In any case, the point In wish to make
here is that
the design IS a MOST important factor in determining the end quality of
the piano. But you are certainly correct in assuming that if the
manufacturing process is
not good, the design won't make much difference in how good the final
product is.
It is also true that no matter how good the manufacturing process is, if
there is not a good design to start with, the piano will be bad.
The second comment (question I will answer, actually) is as to the nature
of our relationship with Kawai. As I said in my message yesterday, it is
pure OEM. There is NO joint venture. The manufacturing could be moved to
another factory next year if it suited oiur purposes. Not that it would;
we are quite pleased with Kawai.
Hope this was helpful. Thanks again for your insightful comments.
Regards, BOB
j schwarten
>
>Your advice, experience (good or bad) and recommendation on the
>following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
>
> Boston GP-178
> Kawai RX-2 (a new model to replace the KG-2)
My recommendation is that you get a used Steinway or Mason & Hamlin
instead.
Some of these, fully rebuilt, will be price competitive, starting at
around
$14,000 depending on the brand, age, size, level of reconditioning, etc.
We have numerous instruments, and, though we are located in New York, we
have customers throughout the U.S. and the Far East.
E-mail me with your snail address for further information, if you are
interested.
John Schwarten
BOSTONDOVE
newsgroup, I'm sorry to have been the cause of said offence. It would
seem that at least the analogies I chose to use were unfortunate for the
group, i.e GE wanting to build a
TV and going to Sanyo, Mitsubishi, etc. Let me clarify: I am a lover of
pianos and Steinways in particular. There are definitely things that make
a Steinway
special/unique/better than all the rest. They are not big mysteries; they
are, for the most part definable. A Steinway which is not manufactured
properly wouldn't
be a good Steinway, and a Boston that didn't have a Steinway design
wouldn't be
what it is. It's a combination of DESIGN, MATIERIALS and MANUFACTURING.
If you don't have all three, you ain't got nothin.
Bob Dove
BOSTONDOVE
1996):
Model numbers are lengths in cm. GP-163 = 5'4" ; GP-178 = 5'10" ; GP-193
= 6'4" ; GP218 = 7'2". The new model will be a GP-156 = 5'2". The are
also four Boston upright sizes, ranging from 109 cm (43") to 132 cm (52").
Bob Dove
j schwarten
>
>Your advice, experience (good or bad) and recommendation on the
>following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
Ryan:
Robert Snyder
>
>Your advice, experience (good or bad) and recommendation on the
>following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
>
> Boston GP-178
> Kawai RX-2 (a new model to replace the KG-2)
>
>What would be a reasonable price to pay for each of these Grands?
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>Ryan.
Both of these pianos are very nice.... but there is a very definite
difference between the two. You'll immediately hear the result of the
larger soundboard in the Boston; you'll also immediately *feel* the
difference in action response. The Boston action is excellent.... and
there are significant differences between the two actions - both in
design and materials.... differences in the hammers and regulation /
voicing procedures too, for that matter. All have an impact.
If possible, compare the two on a side by side - - or as close as you
can get...
By the way, where are you located?
Let us know how this all turns out.
Bob S.
Paul Smith
Excellent answers to some excellent questions (comments)! Very
interesting information. I'm sure a lot of readers will enjoy this thread
as I have.
Paul
Paul Smith
>
>If anyone has been offended by an employee of Boston joining this
Bob, I for one am not offended by what you have written to date - as long
as you stick to facts I don't think anyone will be. It's only when people
are blowing their own horn and their true bias shows through that people
become annoyed.
Paul
iv...@gwis.com
>Your advice, experience (good or bad) and recommendation on the
>following 5'10" Grands is greatly appreciated :
>
> Boston GP-178
> Kawai RX-2 (a new model to replace the KG-2)
>
>What would be a reasonable price to pay for each of these Grands?
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>Ryan. < Please Reply to this NewsGroup >
You are aware that Kawai makes the Boston for Steinway...so why buy
one? I was not impressed with the Boston at all, or its significantly
higher price tag...
I don't remember exact prices quoted, but I just bought a Kawai GS-60,
which is a 6'9", at a college program sale, 6 months old, with full
warranty, for $ 13,500 plus my old beat up Kimball in trade...not bad
I thought, considering a list price of around $ 33,000 for a new
one...
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((((((((( IVORY )))))))))))
Rev. Anthony Dennis
iv...@gwis.com
Acts 4:12
Kazuo Yoshizaki
: >It's sort of like if GE wanted a TV manufactured for them, and they had
Kawai was to buy out Steinway when Steinway company was on sale for ???million
dollars. However at the last moment, Birminghams came to the bid and added
their assets on top of ???million which they borrowed from a bank on security
of Steinway company and bought out Steinway.
I don't know which was better, but I feel Henry Steinway could have survived
better at Kawai-owned-Steinway.
Robert Snyder
writes:
>Kawai was to buy out Steinway when Steinway company was on sale for
???million
>dollars. However at the last moment, Birminghams came to the
bid........
The above is untrue.
Bob S.
Glenn Grafton
Yoshizaki) wrote:
> M. Petri (pet...@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
> : >It's sort of like if GE wanted a TV manufactured for them, and they had
> : >the design, but needed manufacturing capacity to build it. They might >go
> : >to Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Matsushita, etc. They
> : >would get prices from each one and evaluate other factors such as the
> : >ability of the factory to deliver on time, the factory's ability to
> : >deliver the desired quality level, etc. That is the process Steinway went
> : >through when it went into the Boston business. Steinway engineers
> : >designed the piano, then the company went to look for someone to
> : >manufacture it. After visiting a large number of potential manufacturers,
> : >Kawai was chosen, for a number of reasons.
>
> : Oh. If this was a really parallel operation... then Steinway would buy out
> : Kawai because they were competing for government military contracts, and
> : then they would sell off both the Steinway and Kawai piano brands names to
> : some French company that was looking for inroads to the American
> : marketplace. That company would then sell their NEW products under the
> : Steinway name, and slap a Kawai name badge on the older models.
>
> Kawai was to buy out Steinway when Steinway company was on sale for ???million
> dollars. However at the last moment, Birminghams came to the bid and added
> their assets on top of ???million which they borrowed from a bank on security
> of Steinway company and bought out Steinway.
> I don't know which was better, but I feel Henry Steinway could have survived
> better at Kawai-owned-Steinway.
Steinway went to Kawaii to build their Boston piano line for two reasons:
1. They wouldn't want to go to Yamaha because Yamaha and Steinway are arch
rivals ie. several years ago Yamaha dealers who were also Steinway dealers
were forbidden to participate in Yamahas' concert artist program (they'd
loose the Steinway line if they did) & the two top pianos in recording
studios are Yamaha and Steinway.
2. Kawaii offers a level of quality not available from the Korean piano
manufacturers.
A fact lost in most sales presentations is that the Boston pianos are made
by Kawaii and have Kawaii rim, legs, lyre, etc. They evidently use a
different scale design than Kawaii--but they are not a Steinway piano. The
motivation seems to be that with the Boston piano a dealer can offer a
piano the average person can afford.
I would be sure to check out Yamaha grands if a person is considering a
Kawaii or Boston. The new C series of grands (5'3", 5'8", etc.) are great
sounding instruments.
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
1(800-272-5980