The REAL price of a piano ?
Mark Charette
grand piano. However, in trying to be an educated consumer, I've run into
a stubling block. Where can I find out the wholesale price of a piano? In
getting other goods, I can either request a service to give me the wholesale
price (such as getting the dealer cost on a car, amout of holdback, etc.) or
there is a very competitive market (such as electronics). In buying a house,
I can find the asking & selling price in the neighborhood.
For pianos, I can't find relevant information. All the dealers around here
will discount 30% immediately from the "suggested list" (whatever that is)
and with a little more pushing, 40%. It looks like I can get close to 50%
when I start walking away. Where can I get the real numbers? I don't mind the
dealers taking 10-15%, but the markups look outrageous.
--
Mark Charette "Don't crush that dwarf; hand me the pliers"
MIKA Systems, Inc. - Firesign Theater
17197 N. Laurel Park Dr Suite 115
Livonia, MI 48152 char...@mika.com
Israel Stein
If you consider the amount of floor space a piano dealer has to rent and
maintain, the cost of transporting pianos from factory to showroom, the
cost of preparing them for sale - they don't always come off the truck
ready to play, you know - keeping them in tune while they are in the
showroom, providing warranty service to purchasers (occasional pianos
require lots of tinkering before they settle down) and insuring a very
expensive and fragile inventory, I think you will agree that a 10% - 15%
markup will not even cover a dealer's overhead. Whatever hokus-pokus
salesmen pull with "suggested retail prices" or whatever can't obscure
the fact that without an adequate return a dealer will simply go out of
business. Pianos are not a high volume item - so the markup has to
reflect the fact that not too many people buy pianos. Groceries you can
mark up 15% and survive. The real price of a piano is whatever will allow
the dealer to stay in business. And I've seen a couple go out of business
just because they forgot that.
Israel Stein
Mark Charette
: If you consider the amount of floor space a piano dealer has to rent and
: cost of preparing them for sale - they don't always come off the truck
: ready to play, you know - keeping them in tune while they are in the
: showroom, providing warranty service to purchasers (occasional pianos
: require lots of tinkering before they settle down) and insuring a very
: expensive and fragile inventory, I think you will agree that a 10% - 15%
: markup will not even cover a dealer's overhead. Whatever hokus-pokus
: salesmen pull with "suggested retail prices" or whatever can't obscure
: the fact that without an adequate return a dealer will simply go out of
: business. Pianos are not a high volume item - so the markup has to
: reflect the fact that not too many people buy pianos. Groceries you can
: mark up 15% and survive. The real price of a piano is whatever will allow
: the dealer to stay in business. And I've seen a couple go out of business
I'm not refuting this, but my question still stands. As a small businessman I
can relate to the expenses incurred. However, without the wholesale price
I don't have a good feel for the dollar value of the material, even though
the artistic value may be different.
I don't mind people making money (my original post stated this), I just
want to know how much I'm paying in addition to the bottom line costs. One
dealer may give a good price but my technician may have to do more work.
In this case I'll add in the cost of the technician's time & figure out
what the cost will be. Since I'm not in the market every few years I
probably won't be seeing the dealer very often, so the cost is very important
to me.
I'm not averse to save a hundred bucks or so even if the purchase is in
the 20-30K range.
Tyler Tex
correct that the suggest retail" in piano sales means about as much as it
does in computer sales, and you kow how ridiculous that has been. Only
recently has the computer industry started to eliminate that worthless
number, since no one pays it anyway. (This, in my opinion, is why one
should ALWAYS be skeptical about "discounts," if the discount is based on
an inflated suggested retail.)
So, in this regard I think the piano industry deserves the buyer
confusion (and thus hesitant sales) it gets. I've seen the suggested
retails for Yamahas, for example, and they are outrageous. If they
prevailed, my dream of owning a 7'4" some day is out the window. But they
won't prevail, thankfully. So why have them? Well, that's between the
dealers and the manufacturers. As for me, I will compare prices as I do
with other commodities. Many times the dealer has a price posted on a tag
on the piano. That is probably not the suggested retail, but it is also
not necessarily the lowest price he'll give you. THAT price you're not
likely to get until you express some serious interest in buying the
instrument.
As for the comments of others here, I cetainly don't disagree that
there is a price point where a dealer would be foolish to fall below,
unless he is facing a dire cash emergency. And they certainly deserve a
fair profit margin (which is not our province to determine). But as for
the suggested retail prices, they are not realistic.
--Richard Huggins
Israel Stein
>I'm not refuting this, but my question still stands. As a small businessman I
>can relate to the expenses incurred. However, without the wholesale price
>I don't have a good feel for the dollar value of the material, even though
>the artistic value may be different.
There is no retail business that will let you know its wholesale cost.
There are so called "wholesale" prices for cars, etc. but they are
illusory - the "tissue price" (which is what a car dealer really pays for
the car) is a closely guarded industry secret. Wholesale piano prices are
available to people in the piano trade by subscription, from research
organization whose information may or may not be accurate. Prices charged
by particular dealers at particular times may reflect special promotions,
or changes in pricing, so knowing the "official" wholesale price will not
necessarely give you an advantage in a particular negotiation - only an
illusin of a good deal. Besides, we pay for this information and so we
aren't going to put ourselves at a disadvantage by passing it on to you
free of charge.
Personally I find the whole business distasteful - I would much prefer a
standard price structure with no haggling - you pay what's on the price
tag and save an awful lot of time and trouble. Much of retail trade in
the United States is based on creating the illusion that a buyer is
getting a "good deal". There is a point below which a dealer (who is not
desperate for a quick infusion of cash) will not go. Your knowing the
"official" wholesale will not alter it. So you can spend
lots of time playing the haggle game (I suspect your time has value too)
or you can find something you like and get the price down to where it
goes (you seem to know how to do that) and quit wasting your time trying
for that last hundred bucks - which in most cases will come out of the
salesman's commission, not the dealer's profit.
>I don't mind people making money (my original post stated this), I just
>want to know how much I'm paying in addition to the bottom line costs. One
>dealer may give a good price but my technician may have to do more work.
>In this case I'll add in the cost of the technician's time & figure out
>what the cost will be. Since I'm not in the market every few years I
>probably won't be seeing the dealer very often, so the cost is very important
>to me.
>I'm not averse to save a hundred bucks or so even if the purchase is in
>the 20-30K range.
>--
>Mark Charette "Don't crush that dwarf; hand me the pliers"
>MIKA Systems, Inc. - Firesign Theater
>17197 N. Laurel Park Dr Suite 115
>Livonia, MI 48152 char...@mika.com
Hey, good luck - I'm not averse too you getting good deal either. I just
don't want you to do it to the detriment of people with whom I work.
Israel Stein
s...@delphi.dasd.honeywell.com
(We usually get good prices by mail ordering electronic musical instruments,
including some very heavy ones.) I suspect most piano company protects their
dealers by prohibiting them to sale pianos to out-of-state customers.
Shang
Yardarman
s...@delphi.dasd.honeywell.com writes:
You can set up a horse-trade between Altenberg Piano in New Jersey (800)
526-6079 and Piano Piano in New York ((800) 368-2999. Both will sell
warranteed Pianos and ship them out of state (with no sales tax). Don't
pay until you take delivery, insist on a guarantee and shop between the
two for the best price.
Dick Wallingford
own a grand piano. I have gotten used to playing Steinway B pianos
here on campus and would dearly love to own one or one with similar
performance. As I have never shopped around for new acoustic pianos
and don't have much experience playing other brands, I have a two
part question:
1. How much would a new Steinway B cost (roughly)?
(also, how about a slightly smaller model?)
and
2. Assuming I'll never make enough money to buy a Steinway,
what are some other pianos (say from yamaha, for instance)
that would give roughly similar performance that might be
considerably cheaper?
Thanks in advance.
Dick Wallingford
Michael O. Rubinstein
>
>A new Steinway B is exactly $31,500 in ebony. It goes up 10% each year. A
>used Steinway B can be purchased from Steinway from $22,000 - $28,000.
>There is a l945 mahogony "B" on sale now in NYC for $25k.
>
>-Robin
Surely this can't be true. 10% each year? If it is,
I am going to be depressed since I won't be able
to buy a nice piano for quite some time. 10% / year
means that in ten years a Steinway
B will cost $81703 and in 15 years the cost will be $131583.
Michael.
RobinS2384
(Dick Wallingford) writes:
>1. How much would a new Steinway B cost (roughly)?
> (also, how about a slightly smaller model?)
>2. Assuming I'll never make enough money to buy a Steinway,
> what are some other pianos (say from yamaha, for instance)
>that would give roughly similar performance that might be
>considerably cheaper?
A new Steinway B is exactly $31,500 in ebony. It goes up 10% each year. A
used Steinway B can be purchased from Steinway from $22,000 - $28,000.
There is a l945 mahogony "B" on sale now in NYC for $25k.
I am a professional pianist and recently purchased an "L" for 9k from a
private home. A very good deal I think. This piano is probably worth about
$18k , although for insurance purposes it must list $31,500 as that is the
REPLACEMENT cost of the instrument.
Up until now I have had a Young Chang which had a LOT of sound for a small
piano. My gripe with it concerned its action. Not as even, not as
sensitive as a Steinway etc, but it had a fair and even TONE. I would
recommend a Baldwin, Young-Chang and conservatory Yamahas while saving
into the "Steinway Fund":)
If you can find an old Mason-Hamlin I'd go with that too.
-Robin
Christopher Barber
MR> In article <3adc2p$n...@newsbf01.news.aol.com> robin...@aol.com
MR> (RobinS2384) writes:
>> A new Steinway B is exactly $31,500 in ebony. It goes up 10% each
>> year. A used Steinway B can be purchased from Steinway from $22,000
>> - $28,000. There is a l945 mahogony "B" on sale now in NYC for
>> $25k. -Robin
MR> Surely this can't be true. 10% each year? If it is, I am going to
MR> be depressed since I won't be able to buy a nice piano for quite
MR> some time. 10% / year means that in ten years a Steinway B will
MR> cost $81703 and in 15 years the cost will be $131583.
The last three or four years has averaged around a 4% annual increase. It
is possible that this was depressed because of the recession, but 10% a
year sounds awfully high to me too. But there is no question that Steinway
prices have been rising consistently for a long time.
- Chris
--
Christopher Barber
(cba...@bbn.com)
RobinS2384
(RobinS2384) writes:
CORRECTION! I have the list prices here on my desk:
"D" 66,000 (ebony)
"D" 72,000 (walnut
"B" 43,100 (ebony)
"B" 45,900 (mahogany)
"B" 47,500 (walnut)
"L" 33,100 (ebony)
"L" 35,700 (mahogany)
"L" 37,100 (walnut)
"M" 29,100 (ebony)
"M" 31,700 (mahogany)
"M" 32,800 (walnut)
"S" baby grands are 25,100 - 28,800
vertical pianos are from 11,300 - 16,700
and yes , they do go up 10% every year.
But the good news is that I just bought an "L" for 9,000 from a private
home. If you look long enough affordable steinways can be found...:)
-Robin
Nhat-Viet Phi
: 2. Assuming I'll never make enough money to buy a Steinway,
: what are some other pianos (say from yamaha, for instance)
: that would give roughly similar performance that might be
: considerably cheaper?
Well, you could always try Yamaha and Kawai; they are sure to be cheaper
than most Steinway grands. Stay away from Young Chang - the VAST majority
of pianos from this Korean company that _I_ have played are very flaky,
plastic-feeling, plastic-sounding etc.
Have you ever tried Bostons? These pianos are designed by Steinway & Sons
but built by Kawai in Japan. The three or four units I have tried are
quite decent, but then it's not surprising given the respective
reputations of their parents.
Just sharing personal experiences!
Nhat-Viet Phi
nhat...@nucleus.com
Calgary, Alberta, Canada