Trills in Appassionata
Cea Dorn
Am currently playing from the Schnabel (sp?) version of
this sonata and am unhappy with their interpretation of trills
in the 1st movement. Is this the preferred way of playing these
trills or does someone have other interpretations to suggest?
Sherry
Carl Tait
In article <4m888l$f...@news.isc.rit.edu>,
Cea Dorn <cad...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu> wrote
I don't have the Schnabel edition, but here's what works for me
on the first trill (the others are similar):
CDED EDEDC EDC (I mentally break it into three pieces)
1232 32321 432 (Fingering: the oddity at the end helps me)
Carl Tait
Les Smith
Cea Dorn (cad...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu) wrote:
: Am currently playing from the Schnabel (sp?) version of
: this sonata and am unhappy with their interpretation of trills
: in the 1st movement. Is this the preferred way of playing these
: trills or does someone have other interpretations to suggest?
: Sherry
For years the preferred edition of the Beethoven Sonatas was that edited
by Hans Von Bulow, Liszt's son-in-law, and published by Schirmer as their
Library #'s 1 and 2. Basically the trills work like this: unless the lower
auxilary note is actually written in as the c is in measure three the
trill always start on the UPPER auxilary note and always commence exactly
on the count. Thus in measure three the lower auxilary c is played on the
3rd count simultaneously with the f,g, and b natural in L.H. Further all
of the trills whether they start on the upper or lower auxilary note ALWAYS
end with an APPOGGITURA. If you go to a large library with a music section
you should be able to find the Bulow-Lebert edition of the Beethoven Sonatas
and you'll find a complete discussion of these trills at the beginning of
the sonata. While you're there pick up a copy of Artur Rubinstein playing
this piece. He does an text-book execution of these trills. Congratulations
on choosing one of Beethoven's best. The deeper you get into it, the better
this sonata gets. When you get to the 3rd movement take note of Von Bulows
fingering for the main theme. It's much more comfortable at high speeds than
that given by Schnabel, even if it does look somewhat strange at first. As
Rachmaninoff once said, it is not possible to play the last movement too
fast. When you finish, the piano keys should be smoking! Enjoy!
Les Smith
less...@buffnet.net
Marvin Allen Wolfthal
In article <4mcqav$9...@buffnet2.buffnet.net>,
less...@buffnet.net (Les Smith) writes:
>Cea Dorn (cad...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu) wrote:
>: Am currently playing from the Schnabel (sp?) version of
>: this sonata and am unhappy with their interpretation of trills
>: in the 1st movement. Is this the preferred way of playing these
>: trills or does someone have other interpretations to suggest?
>
>: Sherry
>
>For years the preferred edition of the Beethoven Sonatas was that edited
>
This is true. However, it dates from the 19th century and predates
all significant Beethoven scholarship. By current standards of
philology it is wildly inaccurate in its representation of Beethoven's
intentions and actually changes them without the slightest disclaimer
being made. You may find some interesting fingerings and
suggestions in it. But for purposes of serious study
the edition by Heinrich Schenker is probably the most
accurate (with fascinating fingerings). Among more recent editions,
Claudio Arrau's is the most valuable I've seen.
--
Marvin Allen Wolfthal (m...@fsg.com)
Les Smith
Marvin Allen Wolfthal (m...@nirvana.myth) wrote:
: In article <4mcqav$9...@buffnet2.buffnet.net>,
Forget modern scholarship. The reason the von Bulow edition was
considered the preferred one was because Hans was Liszt's son-in-law.
Liszt's teacher was Carl Czerny. Czerny studied with Beethoven. Czerny taught
Liszt to play the sonatas, as Beethoven taught had taught him. Von Bulow's
editing of the sonatas reflects the way his father-in-law, Liszt used to play
them. Thus the line goes from Beethoven to Czerny to Liszt to Von Bulow to
the YOU, the pianist. If you listen to Artur Rubenstein's execution of the
trills in question, which was what the question in the original post was
about, you will find that they conform exactly with Von Bulow's discussion
and presentation of the trills at the beginning of his edition of Beethoven's
Opus 57 in F minor.
Les Smith
less...@buffnet.net
Marvin Allen Wolfthal
In article <4mfnd5$s...@buffnet2.buffnet.net>,
The reason the von Bulow edition became popular was that it was the
first edition that explained "how to play" this music and it appealed
tremendously to a rising middle class that wanted access,
indeed without requiring scholarship.
There is a another lineage that originates with Beethoven, and it leads
through Liszt and his friend Martin Krause to Krause's students
Edwin Fischer and Claudio Arrau. So it may not be accurate to
justify von Bulow's edition by invoking Liszt's name.
In any case, some pianists who persist in a foolish devotion to
scholarship may wish to blame it on this latter genetic line
rather than the one you suggest.
Martha Beth Lewis
In <4md5gg$f...@alpha.pcix.com> m...@nirvana.myth (Marvin Allen Wolfthal)
writes:
>the edition by Heinrich Schenker is probably the most
>accurate (with fascinating fingerings).
I'll take the Henle Urtext every time. Martha Beth
Marvin Allen Wolfthal
In article <4mk952$m...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
mar...@ix.netcom.com(Martha Beth Lewis) writes:
>In <4md5gg$f...@alpha.pcix.com> m...@nirvana.myth (Marvin Allen Wolfthal)
>writes:
>
>
closer to the original manuscripts in numerous places, and (a personal
opionion) his fingerings appear to me far more subtle.
Martha Beth Lewis
In <4mm41s$1...@alpha.pcix.com> m...@nirvana.myth (Marvin Allen Wolfthal)
writes:
>
>In article <4mk952$m...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
> mar...@ix.netcom.com(Martha Beth Lewis) writes:
>>In <4md5gg$f...@alpha.pcix.com> m...@nirvana.myth (Marvin Allen
Wolfthal)
>>writes:
>>
>> I'll take the Henle Urtext every time. Martha Beth
>>
>The Henle edition is definitely one of the best. Schenker, however, is
>closer to the original manuscripts in numerous places, and (a personal
>opionion) his fingerings appear to me far more subtle.
>--
>Marvin Allen Wolfthal (m...@fsg.com)
I really dislike fingered editions, no matter who the composer
is, Marvin. They do not require that the student think. AND
they are fingered (90% of the time) by adult males. Alas, most
piano students are not adult males [with large hands], but
children, teens, and adult females. Consequently, the fingering
given is almost never realistic. I find many of the Schenker
fingerings gigantic and clumsy circumlocutions, the result of
the last century's views on "proper" fingering. Not unlike the
fingering found in those (ahem) editions with the yellow
covers.
Sorry. Give me Henle. mb
Richard Carnes
In article <4mmfjg$1...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Martha Beth Lewis <mar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> I really dislike fingered editions, no matter who the composer
> is, Marvin. They do not require that the student think. AND
> they are fingered (90% of the time) by adult males. Alas, most
> piano students are not adult males [with large hands], but
> children, teens, and adult females. Consequently, the fingering
> given is almost never realistic. I find many of the Schenker
> fingerings gigantic and clumsy circumlocutions, the result of
> the last century's views on "proper" fingering.
Schenker's (and Schnabel's) fingerings of Beethoven are well worthy of
study. In many instances the fingerings suggested by these great
students of Beethoven are designed to help the pianist bring out the
expressive content of the music, rather than being simply the most
convenient way to cover the notes; see Carl Schachter's discussion of
the fingerings in his preface to the Schenker edition. This does not
mean, of course, that one must adopt their fingerings, or that their
editions are necessarily the ones you would want your students to work
from. But a study of their fingerings, particularly the
peculiar-looking ones, will often yield insights into the music.
> Sorry. Give me Henle. mb
Better yet, use all the good editions you can get your hands on (a
library helps here): the Henle for its up-to-date scholarship, the
Schenker for the fingerings and its reproduction of Beethoven's
notation and spatial layout (which, as Schenker observed, often has
musical significance), the Schnabel for its fingerings and wealth of
interesting interpretive ideas, the Tovey for his commentaries, and
even the bad old Buelow-Lebert because Buelow was one of the greatest
pianists of his time and he had some good ideas.
Richard
Marvin Allen Wolfthal
In article <4mmfjg$1...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
mar...@ix.netcom.com(Martha Beth Lewis) writes:
>
> I really dislike fingered editions, no matter who the composer
> is, Marvin. They do not require that the student think.
The requirement of thinking can't be enforced in any case,
and good, if idiosyncratic, fingerings can provide an extremely
educational example.
> AND they are fingered (90% of the time) by adult males.
The problem is more that we don't have half- and
quarter-size keyboards so that people can develop a natural
technique early on.
> Alas, most
> piano students are not adult males [with large hands], but
> children, teens, and adult females. Consequently, the fingering
> given is almost never realistic. I find many of the Schenker
> fingerings gigantic and clumsy circumlocutions, the result of
> the last century's views on "proper" fingering.
Propriety is not the origin of Schenker's fingerings, nor is he primarily
concerned with comfort. His fingerings are an editorial device for indicating,
more practically than words would, his idea of the proper phrasing
and accent. If for example you play them taking the extra time for finger
substitution, you may get the idea of rubato he is suggesting.
> Not unlike the
> fingering found in those (ahem) editions with the yellow
> covers.
>
> Sorry. Give me Henle. mb
I agree that it is a good edition, and it is good that it is not
heavily fingered, because the fingerings that are given are
generally uninspired.
Martha Beth Lewis
In <4mnnlm$o...@news.eecs.umich.edu> car...@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard
Carnes) writes:
>
>In article <4mmfjg$1...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Martha Beth Lewis <mar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> is
>Schenker's (and Schnabel's) fingerings of Beethoven are well worthy of
>study. In many instances the fingerings suggested by these great
>students of Beethoven are designed to help the pianist bring out the
>expressive content of the music
>Richard
Richard, would you expand upon this idea, please? I'm not
sure I understand what you mean. Thanks. mb