Samick Opinion?
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
influenced heavily by lack of space and available budget, although I'm
surprisingly pleased by the piano's tone and feel. I paid $8,000.
I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a
fair price.
Please don't respond if you only want to say, "If you like it, that's
what counts." I'd really like your own opinion.
TIA
Thierry
--
"One man's meat is another man's poison"
- Oswald Dykes, English writer, 1709.
Rick Clark
grand piano, and only want to spend $8,000, then it's a perfectly
good choice, and there is nothing better new at the same price. One
might argue that a late model, higher-quality piano bought used might
be a better choice, but that assumes you want to do all the work of
determining which better quality used piano is in top condition as
opposed to having accumulated some problems.
One might also argue that an $8,000 high-end upright would have been a
better choice- and in some ways that is a good argument, but in other
ways perhaps not.
I would say this- since you already own the piano, it might be a smart
idea now to align yourself with the best technician you can find, and
be prepared to spend a litttle more to keep the regulation good and
whatever other extra glitches pop up. If you don't, the natural
glitchiness of them can be compounded by the neglect of the extra
maintenance required, and the piano can go downhill.
Rick Clark
Larry
>Please don't respond if you only want to say, "If you like it, that's
>what counts." I'd really like your own opinion.
>
>TIA
>Thierry
Since you have already bought it, telling you what we think now is a total
waste of time. Don't you think you should have done this - oh, say Friday?
Larry Fletcher
Pianos Inc
Atlanta GA
Dealer/technician
Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe
Http://www.pianosinc.net
James Boyk
> Yesterday I purchased a new Samick SG-150C in oak case.... I paid $8,000. I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a fair price....
One thing I've learned in decades of audio consulting is never to answer
the question, "What do you think of [name of item]?" It always means my
questioner owns that item; and in my experience, people who own
something--especially if they've just bought it--positively do not want
to hear anything negative.
I don't know anything at all about Samick pianos, but don't be surprised
if you don't get answers! I mean, if *you thought someone had just made
a b-i-g mistake by buying Brand X piano, would you say so? What good
could it do? The time for questions like this is *before you buy!
James Boyk
Patrick L.
<Thi...@1st-uspride.net> wrote in message news:MPG.14662a14f...@news.1st-uspride.net...
I tell you what I think. They are lousy pianos.
Feel better?
Patrick L
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
Thi...@1st-uspride.net says...
> Yesterday I purchased a new Samick SG-150C in oak case. My choice was
> influenced heavily by lack of space and available budget, although I'm
> surprisingly pleased by the piano's tone and feel. I paid $8,000.
>
> I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a
> fair price.
>
> Please don't respond if you only want to say, "If you like it, that's
> what counts." I'd really like your own opinion.
>
> TIA
> Thierry
I should probably have included in my original post that in two weekends
I visited 6 piano dealers and tried several different brands, both used
and new.
No dealer currently had a used piano that was in acceptable condition
within my budget. Of the new pianos I played, the Samick seemed to have
the best overall sound and workmanship. Samick's warranty also seemed to
be better than many for instruments in that price range.
I don't think I made an unintelligent decision, but I was truly
interested in other opinions, both positive and negative.
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
Ple...@LobotomizeMe.com says...
Rich,
Thank you for your opinion and suggestion. I do have a good technician
lined up.
I was replacing an upright because of the necessary location of the piano
in our newly-acquired house.
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
larryin...@aol.comnojunk says...
As I said in my post, I was interested in opinions, not recommendations.
I had to choose from what was available within my budget, and I
personally think I made the best choice. I was simply curious about what
other people thought about the Samick.
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
> Thi...@1st-uspride.net wrote:
>
> > Yesterday I purchased a new Samick SG-150C in oak case.... I paid $8,000. I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a fair price....
>
> One thing I've learned in decades of audio consulting is never to answer
> the question, "What do you think of [name of item]?" It always means my
> questioner owns that item; and in my experience, people who own
> something--especially if they've just bought it--positively do not want
> to hear anything negative.
>
Not so. I would welcome anyone's opinions, even if negative.
> I don't know anything at all about Samick pianos, but don't be surprised
> if you don't get answers! I mean, if *you thought someone had just made
> a b-i-g mistake by buying Brand X piano, would you say so? What good
> could it do? The time for questions like this is *before you buy!
>
> James Boyk
>
I'm really not sure what you responded, since you know nothing about
Samick pianos.
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
REMOVE-...@jazzytunes.com says...
Wow, that was really informative, and an interesting opinion!
Thanks,
Dave Zappa
Thi...@1st-uspride.net wrote in message ...
>Yesterday I purchased a new Samick SG-150C in oak case. My choice was
>influenced heavily by lack of space and available budget, although I'm
>surprisingly pleased by the piano's tone and feel. I paid $8,000.
>
>I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a
>fair price.
>
>Please don't respond if you only want to say, "If you like it, that's
>what counts." I'd really like your own opinion.
>
>TIA
>Thierry
Samick's Korean pianos are a mid-line piano, nothing special and not a
complete piece of crap - their Indonesian pianos are a step below that (not
the worst entry level piano, but an entry-level piano none the less - kind
of like a Huffy bicycle). I'm not sure if the SG150 is being made in Korea
or Indonesia now, but the "C" designation at the end of the model leads me
to believe the latter. If it was made in Korea there is a plate/sticker
right behind the leg (toward the back of the piano) on the treble side that
will say so. If it is a Korean-built piano I'd say you got a decent deal, if
not I'd say you paid $1000-$1500 too much. (You wanted opinions right?)
Either way you'll want to keep the piano performing as good as possible so
have your tech out every three months this year, then every six after that
whether you think you need it or not. The oak is going to work against you
should you ever want to sell it.
I'm glad you like it and hope you enjoy it for many years.
DZ
Tim
long as they like theirs, those pianos always bring smile to their faces.
:-) I never once have the heart to tell them "my opinion" when I see that
smile. Let's just leave it like that....
Tim
Thi...@1st-uspride.net wrote:
--
remove "trythis" to send email
jaso...@msn.com
waited and bought something of better quality either by saving more
money or waiting for a good used instrument to surface.
In article <AAeL5.1305$fv1.1...@news1.primary.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
says...
Thanks for all your comments. I did find a label denoting "Korea", but
located inside the case near the leg on the treble side. BTW, right or
wrong, I was told the "C" suffix indicated a model something other than
standard; e.g., non-standard finish, etc.
Thierry
--
Thierry
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
> I think DZ summs it up very accurately. Personally, I would have
> waited and bought something of better quality either by saving more
> money or waiting for a good used instrument to surface.
Your points are well taken. However, I've been without a piano for a
little more than a year and couldn't take it anymore. :-( To save for
something substantially better would have taken me at least another year.
--
Thierry
Don
>In article <39FCA70D...@caltech.edu>, bo...@caltech.edu says...
>> Thi...@1st-uspride.net wrote:
>>
>> > Yesterday I purchased a new Samick SG-150C in oak case.... I paid $8,000. I'm curious about others' opinions of this piano and whether I paid a fair price....
>>
>> One thing I've learned in decades of audio consulting is never to answer
>> the question, "What do you think of [name of item]?" It always means my
>> questioner owns that item; and in my experience, people who own
>> something--especially if they've just bought it--positively do not want
>> to hear anything negative.
>>
>
>Not so. I would welcome anyone's opinions, even if negative.
Since you asked...
I Samick and Young Chang are right at the BOTTOM of the piano food
chain. But you already bought it...so that really doesn't matter.
I would have taken the $8000 and bought a "previously loved" Yamaha or
similar instrument.
D*
Don
>
>No dealer currently had a used piano that was in acceptable condition
>within my budget. Of the new pianos I played, the Samick seemed to have
>the best overall sound and workmanship. Samick's warranty also seemed to
>be better than many for instruments in that price range.
>
One thing to consider is the long-term investment you are making. How
is that Samick gonna play in ten years? Will the action need work?
Will it still hold a tuning?
Many people make the mistake of buying what looks nice or sounds good
on the showroom floor at the time rather than researching the brand of
instrument.
Heck, I knew a piano tuner who had a customer who wanted a Steinway
spinet...which is not made. So, as a joke, he took a day and tweaked
some little stencil spinet, added a Steinway decal to the fallboard
and called the guy to come look at it.
The little piano PLAYED just like a Steinway grand...while the guy was
looking at it. The man was ready to write a check for that piano when
the joker opened the lid and revealed the inside decal, the real name
of the crappy instrument.
A good technician can tweak any piano to sound better and play like a
Steinway for an hour or so. But LONG-TERM....is a different matter.
D*
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
<326925B3E35E318A.26843F0A...@lp.airnews.net>,
calldo...@earthlink.net says...
That all may very well be true, and I do appreciate your opinion.
However, I really do prefer the sound and touch of this piano over others
I found in my price range.
--
Thierry
John S. Gray
(abysmal) SG140. When did they bring out the 150 model?
I still stand by the Samick SG-172. MUCH more bang for the buck, as
run-of-the-mill cheap Korean pianos go.
I heartily agree about the oak finish. Still, there might be a 65-year-old
Bavarian couple looking for a used baby grand some day....
JG
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
> The SG150C? I really AM out of touch. I recall the SG155, and the later
> (abysmal) SG140. When did they bring out the 150 model?
I dunno. It's been on their website for some time. The 150 is 5'11-1/2"
whereas the 155 is 5'3", I believe.
> I still stand by the Samick SG-172. MUCH more bang for the buck, as
> run-of-the-mill cheap Korean pianos go.
>
> I heartily agree about the oak finish. Still, there might be a 65-year-old
> Bavarian couple looking for a used baby grand some day....
I'm sure that everyone is right about the oak finish, however, it really
works for me. I didn't want black or white and cherry or mahogany would
simply not have worked. I doubt I'll be getting rid of this piano for a
very long time and, judging from many folks' opinions, I might have
trouble finding a buyer anyway. Meanwhile, I am really getting to like
this little Samick quite a lot.
>
> JG
Luehrmann
James's response is quite accurate, and judging by some of the "it
sucks" posts you can understand his concern. That said, you also got
some really nice responses.
Dave and Rick offered what I feel are very good assessments and
suggestions for your particular piano, and any piano for that matter.
An RPT, or any highly skilled tech is worth their weight in gold when it
comes down to making a piano perform to the best of its ability, and in
the style to which the owner likes it to be. I also am not a fan of
Baby Grands, and think for the same amount of money (or even less) you
can get a much nicer performing upright than a grand under 5'9" (but its
just an opinion).
I think Tim said what we all need to tell ourselves over and over again
- "As long as they like theirs, those pianos always bring smile to their
faces." In other words, only the owner needs to appreciate what they've
got, not the rest of the world.
I am a collector of wines, and believe me, if I cover the label (as I do
for all my blind tastings) of both a $100 and a $10 bottle of wine I can
guarantee that everyone who tastes them will not agree on which is the
better wine. The only important thing is what the person drinking the
wine likes. Like wine, pianos are quite subjective. Sure, there are
some "junk" pianos out there as Don so pointed out, and perhaps Samick
has made a few of these. But I'd also be willing to suggest that Yamaha
also has their fair share of "junk" pianos drifting around the
marketplace.
I admittedly was a Samick basher, and so was my wife (the real pianist
in the family), but both our opinions changed a bit when I took her
piano shopping six months ago. Both she and I were what you would have
called "Steinway Snobs". Although actually we prefer Bosendorfer, but I
told her if she came home with a 225, then I would cut up all her credit
cards, and go out and buy myself a Ferrari.
Any way, we were in the market for a 7' grand about nine months ago and
we fully expected to go out and make a deal on a S&S "B". We have
several friends that own the B and have played them enough that we were
convinced that we would not be satisfied with anything else. Regardless
of our bias towards Steinway we certainly weren't going to make a
$50,000 purchase without at least considering our other choices.
We decided to apply our wine tasting methods to our piano buying
process. At every piano dealership we visited I blindfolded her and sat
her down in front of all the 7' grands that were available (new & used).
What an eye opening experience that was!
Now some of the dealer's didn't make our experience very easy. First of
all it was hard to keep the salesmen from following us around and
hinting to my wife which piano she was playing so as to effectively
unbalance her blind tasting. Secondly, many of the pianos she played
had poor prep work, and some were even badly out of tune. Perhaps some
of those pianos were set-up in such a way so that a neighboring piano
(and more expensive) would sound better by comparison, but which ever
was the case, the dealer quickly lost our confidence (either they have
inexperienced techs, or they practice unethical sales techniques).
Our visit to the Steinway Galleries in Austin, was particularly
interesting. While we found all the pianos we played were prepped very
nicely, the Steinways were all placed in an enclosed small acoustical
room with hard wood floors, and foam walls, while all the other brands
were in a large noisy carpeted showroom with a 20' ceiling. Did the
Steinway sound better than the Petrof, Kawai, Boston, Yamaha, and Young
Chang? You bet it did, but we couldn't help but wonder how we would
feel if the Steinway was in the showroom, and the others were in the
"special" room. The other problem was that the blind fold was
meaningless as my wife easily could tell she was in the Steinway room.
We really wanted a fair comparison of Steinway to our other choices so
we made a trip to the Steinway Gallery in Dallas which did not use
"special" rooms for their Steinway models. All their piano are in the
same room. It was there that we made a huge discovery. Right next to
one of their B's was a Samick WFG-205 (They call them the World Fenner
Series). Wy wife was totally enamored by the touch and tone of it, and
I was in shock. First I thought she was just kidding, but she was
deadly serious.
I wasn't about to buy a brand that I had previously touted as "junk"
until I did some more research about the model, and had my wife come
back and try playing it again just to be sure. Well, my research only
complicated things (lol, as is often the case).
***(is anyone actually reading all this? Sorry for such a long post - I
love pianos so its easy for me to get carried away in conversation)
I had read that Samick made pianos under the Kohler & Campbell name, but
that they were basically stencils of equivalent Samick models. In fact
what caught our attention was that during one of her blind tasting trips
she played a K&C SKG 6' grand and was actually quite pleased by it, but
not as much as many of the others (and was a bit small for what we
wanted). What we discovered was that the Samick WFG is their "showcase"
piano, and that they made a similar one for their K&C brand called the
KFM (aka Millennium) model.
As it turned out this was good news, while my wife and I certainly
appreciated the Samick's performance, neither of us liked the "orange"
looking plate, nor was the idea of having the name "Samick" grace our
music room appeal to us (I know, that sounds shallow, but I'm just being
honest).
The K&C KFM has the traditional gold/copper finished plate, and unlike
the Samick its strings are all individually hitched (like our favorite
Bosendorfer and which our RPT prefers over dual hitched). It also has a
premium grade solid spruce tapered soundboard, where as I believe the
Samick is laminated. My wife loves the feel of the Kluge keys, and our
RPT is quite impressed by the full Renner action.
At least on paper, the K&C seemed to have all the right parts, and after
playing it and then comparing the price to everything else we had tested
and enjoyed - the decision was easy. We went out and bought a K&C KFM-
700s and while we sometimes wish the name had more glamour like
Steinway, we couldn't possibly be more pleased with the performance.
We were a little nervous afterwards thinking, maybe we made the wrong
decision, but after our RPT gave it a good look through, he came back
with a rave review. Our next challenge was to see how our Steinway
friends were going to react. To our surprise, the biggest "Steinway
Snob" of them all (and I say that in all kindness and admiration) and a
former piano concert master both were extremely impressed with our
piano.
No, I don't think they are going to rush out and exchange their S&Ss for
a Samick or K&C, and maybe they were just being kind, but for us, we
love our new piano and until we have enough residual income to afford a
Bosendorfer AND my Ferrari, then this little gem will do just fine!
Nils Luehrmann
Piano Owner/Enthusiast/Tech(non-professional)
Austin, TX
--
Just My Opinion, Your Mileage May Vary
Luehrmann
Is anyone actually reading all this? Sorry for such a long post - I
love pianos so its easy for me to get carried away in conversation.
Any way, we really wanted a fair comparison of Steinway to our other
choices so we made a trip to the Steinway Gallery in Dallas which did
not use "special" rooms for their Steinway models. All their piano are
in the same room. It was there that we made a huge discovery. Right
next to one of their B's was a Samick WFG-205 (They call them the World
Fenner Series). Wy wife was totally enamored by the touch and tone of
it, and I was in shock. First I thought she was just kidding, but she
was deadly serious.
I wasn't about to buy a brand that I had previously touted as "junk"
until I did some more research about the model, and had my wife come
back and try playing it again just to be sure. Well, my research only
complicated things (lol, as is often the case).
I had read that Samick made pianos under the Kohler & Campbell name, but
Dave Zappa
Thi...@1st-uspride.net wrote in message ...
>I'm sure that everyone is right about the oak finish, however, it really
>works for me. I didn't want black or white and cherry or mahogany would
>simply not have worked. I doubt I'll be getting rid of this piano for a
>very long time and, judging from many folks' opinions, I might have
>trouble finding a buyer anyway. Meanwhile, I am really getting to like
>this little Samick quite a lot.
Walnut is never a bad choice either, and in regards to your last sentence
YEA!!! Enjoy!
Dave Zappa
>I am a collector of wines, and believe me, if I cover the label (as I do
>for all my blind tastings) of both a $100 and a $10 bottle of wine I can
>guarantee that everyone who tastes them will not agree on which is the
>better wine. The only important thing is what the person drinking the
>wine likes.
Ok, so when is the RMMP Wine Tasting Party at your house? Can I bring my
wife? Will there be cheese? (Not the kind of cheese one finds on the sales
floor :-)
>***(is anyone actually reading all this? Sorry for such a long post - I
>love pianos so its easy for me to get carried away in conversation)
You started off talking about wine, who couldn't get this far?
>The K&C KFM has the traditional gold/copper finished plate, and unlike
>the Samick its strings are all individually hitched (like our favorite
>Bosendorfer and which our RPT prefers over dual hitched). It also has a
>premium grade solid spruce tapered soundboard, where as I believe the
>Samick is laminated. My wife loves the feel of the Kluge keys, and our
>RPT is quite impressed by the full Renner action.
It's hard for some folks to admit, but I too have played these pianos and
find them quite nice, and it's not because they don't say "Samick" and have
a different tone in the plate. They're not bad pianos.
>At least on paper, the K&C seemed to have all the right parts, and after
>playing it and then comparing the price to everything else we had tested
>and enjoyed - the decision was easy. We went out and bought a K&C KFM-
>700s and while we sometimes wish the name had more glamour like
>Steinway, we couldn't possibly be more pleased with the performance.
I bought a mini van last week. I want a Cobra Mustang, but it's too hard to
squeeze the kids in and take them to Denver in a car that basically is a 2
seater. It gets the job done and my wife LOVES it which is all that
matters, not to mention the Cobra is thirty grand and the mini van was 18.
Now, about that wine tasting party, I have a new mini van to come to Texas
in..... :-).
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
> Thierry,
>
> James's response is quite accurate, and judging by some of the "it
> sucks" posts you can understand his concern. That said, you also got
> some really nice responses.
Dear Nils,
Let me first thank you for your very expansive response to my post. I
thoroughly enjoyed reading of your experience, as I'm sure many did. I
appreciate your opinions and value the fact that you opened your mind to
alternatives that might not meet the criteria of friends and other
critics.
I didn't elaborate in either of my original posts, but I am not a newbie
to pianos. I studied from age 4½ (probably too young) through three
years of college, and have played the piano for a total of 52 years.
That would tell you that I'm now 56+. Needless to say, over the years I
have played many different pianos and have owned five myself.
I have endured piano brand snobs as well, not a few of which are evident
on this NG, as well as at least an equal number of truly well-meaning
people who offer constructive comments and advice here.
I have never personally been a fan of the Steinway regardless of its
reputation. There is simply something fundamental in its sound that
holds no appeal for me. As someone once said... there is no accounting
for taste. :-)
One piano that I found instantly awesome and beautiful was a fully
rebuilt 1927 Mason & Hamlin concert grand once owned by an acquaintance.
I will never forget its sound and touch, and I would have almost been
willing to kill for it!
If I were selecting a new piano with adequate resources and available
space, it would most surely be a mid to larger size Bosendorfer.
Bosendorfer seems to produce one of the most consistently fine
instruments on the market and would certainly last a lifetime.
As I mentioned, my current choice was controlled by both budget, location
of placement, and available space. When I began my search I never
dreamed that I would buy a Samick. I was looking at everything else, but
disappointed that they were either too expensive or lacked the sound
and/or touch I was hoping to find.
It is very true that musical instruments each have their individual
personality. I played several identical Samick baby grands and the one I
purchased was the only one that combined the characteristics that I could
accept.
In short, now that almost a week has gone by with an evening of playing
each night, I couldn't be happier with my choice. I hope you and your
wife are enjoying your piano equally well.
--
Thierry
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
says...
> >works for me. I didn't want black or white and cherry or mahogany would
> >simply not have worked. I doubt I'll be getting rid of this piano for a
> >very long time and, judging from many folks' opinions, I might have
> >trouble finding a buyer anyway. Meanwhile, I am really getting to like
> >this little Samick quite a lot.
>
>
> YEA!!! Enjoy!
>
>
>
Thanks, Dave. I agree, walnut is not at all a bad choice. However, most
of our house, including the room where the piano resides, is furnished
with mission-style furniture, all of which is in oak. Thus, my choice of
oak. Guess I've never been inclined to purchase anything because of is
resalability factor, so I won't worry 'bout it.
Yep, I'm really starting to get into this piano. I'm anxious for my
technician to have a go at it as well.
Dwain Lee
We've got a fair amount of Mission furniture, too, and the house itself was
designed with a strong Mission/Arts & Crafts/Prarie Style influence. But our
furniture, as well as the wood trim in the house, and the "walnut" Pergo
flooring has a reddish-brown stain, that would accommodate a red-brown
walnut grand quite nicely....ahh, some day, maybe!
I was recently trying to find pictures of a Mission-style art case grand,
but with no success.
Dwain Lee
<Thi...@1st-uspride.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.146d2e02f...@news.1st-uspride.net...
Thi...@1st-uspride.net
Mission is growing! We have a desert home with a strong feeling of
Mission style. Our oak is almost totally the old golden oak, however,
the red oak of the piano works well. I guess my perception of walnut was
not at all redish, but more purely brown. Never even considered it.
Wouldn't have done me any good though, as there were no models like mine
available in walnut.
Thierry
In article <8u001l$u45$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dl...@dlarch.com
says...
--
Carman Gentile
It is not possible to "tweak" any spinet to play like a grand piano.
Carman Gentile
Registerd Piano Technician #11052
Piano Technicians Guild
Eureka, CA
Luehrmann
his old age? *wink*)
> Ok, so when is the RMMP Wine Tasting Party at your house? Can I bring my
> wife? Will there be cheese? (Not the kind of cheese one finds on the sales
> floor :-)
LOL - actually I already invited Larry (and his budies Curly & Moe),
down to Austin for a few rounds of adult beverages on 6th Street
(Austin's version of Nawlins' Bourbon Street). But sure, a piano/wine
party would be fun. As for the cheese, well heck. I think enough of us
qualify as being too cheesy as it is.
> You started off talking about wine, who couldn't get this far?
*hic*.... I have no *hic*.... idea. But I can promise you much this -
I'm not as think as you drunk I am... *hic*
> It's hard for some folks to admit, but I too have played these pianos and
> find them quite nice, and it's not because they don't say "Samick" and have
> a different tone in the plate. They're not bad pianos.
I can tell you I had a hard time swallowing my pride, thank goodness I
had plenty of wine to wash it down with.
> Now, about that wine tasting party, I have a new mini van to come to Texas
> in..... :-).
Come on down partner! I'll be sure to play that Lyle Lovitt song
"That's right your not from Texas, but Texas wants you any way!"
Luehrmann
questions, that I alone am not qualified enough to answer. That, and
you also have brought up some very interesting topics - like Player
Systems)
Martin wrote:
>Thanks for the info in your detailed post. I am especially interested in you
>and your wife's opinion on Steinway. I know as you have posted you and your
>wife have gotten a K&C instead. If you say you're Steinway "snob" I think I
>am even worst. And that's why even though as stated your K&C KFM is much
>better than a B, I am still considering to purchase a B. Your shopping
>process sounds a lot like mine and I hope you can share some of your
>experience with me.
Just for the record, while we certainly are very pleased with our K&C,
and have ne regrets not buying the B, neither of us would go as far as
to say that our piano is "much" better than a S&S. If anything our
appreciation for both instruments is close to being equal, and at one
third the cost it didn't take us long to decide which we were going to
buy. That said, I can completely understand your desire to own a "B",
they are magnificent pianos, and I am happy to share my shopping
experience with you (as I suppose I already did with everyone at RMMP -
lol).
>Let me give you some background of myself.
>
>I play casually, probably medium level, although I do enjoying playing
>advanced materials, however I am far from perfect (someone your wife will
>probably politely turn her back before laughing).
I'm sure you are only being modest, and either way I can assure you she
would never turn and laugh at anyone, instead she would welcome you at
the piano, and laugh with you should the moment merrit it. :-)
>I haven't been playing for
>the last fifteen years or so. Half a year ago I got seriously thinking about
>buying a piano. My dream has always been a mid-sized Steinway fitted with a
>player system and I'd always estimated that will be about 80K and thus above
>my price range at this time.
Thats my next decision... I too am interested in a player system, but
I'm holding out for something like what Yamaha came up with for their
Disklavier Pro 2000. Unfortunetly I don't believe they offer that
player unit for other pianos (and the Pro 2000 sells for a cool
$330,000!).
>So I was looking for something close to that
>and yet affordable. What that's was a Yamaha Grantouch DGT2XG. But of course
>that's still pretty expensive (about 12K) plus all electronics don't hold
>their values. So the total cost of ownership of a GranTouch is relatively
>high. Plus although it's the best that I feel, it's still lacking in a few
>things. So I was hesitated. Then about four months ago, without knowing
>anything about piano or Steinway, I was invited to one of those Steinway
>Sales. I was just planned on to educate myself on their pricing and other
>things. Well, I ended up walking out with a Y2K L.
>
>That was then. After I bought my L I then do my studying (on piano buying)
>which makes me realized two things: as far as Steinway goes, B is *the*
>model to get, and my L's action really sucks. (Of course I also follow this
>forum and have read about all those phony sales events. I was worried in the
>beginning too. But after a while I realize my purchase wasn't a scam after
>all. The price I got was about 15% off the MSRP. I reside in the California
>Bay Area and Steinways are very high in demand here. Local retailer (only
>one, of course) doesn't give much discount in the showroom. Typically 5% for
>regular people and 15% for teachers. Still the waiting list for a B is about
>a month and a half and L is about a month. So they really don't have to
>discount at all. This sales event I went to supposingly is directly from
>Steinway and thus they offer at lower price plus the piano is already there.
>As a matter of fact, instead of waiting for a month, mine, which I played in
>the sales event, got delivered the next day).
It is VERY dificult to negotiate on pricing when buying a Steinway. You
pointed out many of the reasons for this; limited supply and large
demand (one could argue which came first though *wink*), but another
reason is that Steinway has very tight control over its dealers and
their ability to compete with each other. As competition goes down,
prices go up.
As for the action in your "L", I am rather surprised you found it
significantly inferior to the "B". Now Steinways do have a reputation
for having quality differences within model runs, but hopefully in your
case the heavy action may just be the result of poor dealer prep, and
that a visit from an outside tech may get you the results you are
looking for
BTW: I am not a big fan of the level of service one gets from a
dealer's techs. Most of the highly skilled techs and RPTs rarely remain
staffed by dealers as they can make a much better living as
independents. I'm not saying ALL dealer's service is sub-par (so all
you dealers out there don't attack me), but my experience has shown that
I, and those I am familiar with have received much better results from
using independent RPTs than those offered by a dealer.
>As I have said I haven't been playing for a long time and so when I was
>trying the L in the Sales event I was impressed by it without knowing what
>should I expect. A month later a friend of mine came over and played and
>commented my piano's action "sucks" (of course very lightly on the wording).
>A month after that I went to quite a few piano stores and played quite a bit
>of pianos and I have to agree with my friend that my piano's action is
>sluggish and heavy. A 12K Kawai plays a lot better than mine, for example.
>Also, the YC Pramburger is also better.
>
>So I complained to my dealer and about a month ago he sent out a tech to
>regulate my piano. As the tech worked on the piano, a lot of things were
>required to be regulated. Although both he and the dealer said the piano has
>already been fully prep'ed, from the amount of work the guy worked on my
>piano that day it indicated otherwise. He spent 6 hours to work on:
>backcheck, after touch, let-off, action centers, ... Plus probably another 6
>hours later this month on repetition string setting and other things. Well,
>I have to say after the first 6 hours my piano does feel better, but still
>not as nice as some of the cheaper brands that I have played. The repeat is
>still pretty slow and key action are still somewhat sluggish and heavy,
>especially in the tenor section.
Hmmm.... don't give up on your "L" quite yet. Even though it received
what seems like a lot of attention from a tech, keep in mind that tech
was supplied by the dealer - "The things that make you go - Hmmmmm". Id
get a second opinion. I know, that means you are going to have to pay
for the service, but considering the value of your piano I'd say it
would be worth doing. Perhaps the dealer will reimburse you should the
RPT you hire discover the piano simply wasn't regulated properly. I
know if I was a dealer I wouldn't want a disappointed customer spreading
the word on how poorly my shop prepped their piano.
>Of course in the meanwhile I've read Larry Fine's book and he also said the
>B is *the* model to get (very good book. But I should have read it *before*
>buying!)
No reason to kick yourself (at least not yet). The "L" is still a fine
instrument, and hopefully its action can be fixed so that it pleases you
to no end.
>About a month ago I was in London and I played a few new Hamburg Bs
>in the Steinway Hall. The action on all of them, including all the smaller
>models like O and A are amazingly quick and precise. There is no comparison
>between my L's action and these Bs. The only think I like about my L is the
>voice of it.
>
>Also I trying not to blinding just buy what other people say are good. For
>example as you have said your wife plays very good and looks like your
>circle of friends are all high calibre people. So it makes sense for your
>wife to buy, say, a B instead of an L. Of course I know you ended up amazed
>by the K&C and bought it. But my point is I am not that good. And chances
>are the B might not help me to make less mistakes. But what I am still
>dragging on about buying a B is this: if given a new Hamburg B and a new
>American L, both are at 45K (including tax), which one will you pick. Half a
>year ago I won't know any better and will probably be okay with the L. But
>after playing the Hamburg B the action is just so much better than my L.
>I've also played a few new American B a few weeks back, although their
>actions are better than my L, but they are still somewhat sluggish as
>compared to the Hamburg's. Also, now after playing more pianos I can
>definitely hear the B's scale design is better than the L. The L sounds a
>bit muddy at the lower tenor (of course I look at that as a plus as it will
>help to hide my mistakes), plus the usual better bass with longer strings in
>the B.
>
>So this is the questions for you and your wife: what do you think about the
>Hamburg Steinways?
Amazing instruments, and we prefer them over the NY S&Ss.
>Did you look at any used Hamburg B? The new one are all
>too bright and they need to to voiced down to suit me. This is the classic
>question about when voicing the Hamburg B down, will they still have the
>same dynamic as the American B. Also will the tonal quality suffer?
>How are the used Hamburg B you've tried (if you did) sounded to you?
>And what about action?
Not during our recent blind testing, but we are quite familiar with the
Hamburg B, and like most well maintained used pianos, they generally
feel and sound much more pleasant than similar new ones that have not
yet been "broken in", or received professional voicing and regulation.
I am not at all suggesting that a used piano is better than a new one,
only that a used piano has had the opportunity to find its "voice",
where as new one may need some time to get there.
As for the effects of voicing, this is so very subjective. Once you
find an RPT that you trust and that understands what you want from your
piano, you should be able to get exactly the results you ask for. The
whole point of voicing a piano is to improve the tonal quality, so you
shouldn't be afraid of losing tonal quality.
>Will my L really be improving given another year of
>playing. And will it improve to the point it beats out all the lower priced
>pianos?
While your "L" will certainly adjust to its new home, as to whether it
improves or not will have more to do with how well you communicate what
you want from your RPT, and whether or not they are qualified to carry
out your requests. Of course, you never know.... maybe you have a
lemon, but hopefully not!
>Is there any real difference between the Hamburg's Renner action and
>the American's? Seems to me all American production are very tight when new.
>After playing for a while (a year or so), will they be as good as the
>Hamburg's action? On the contrary, after played for a year, will the Hamburg
>action becoming too loose and needs to be re-regulated?
>Another side question: in year 2000, the B's plate has been upgraded to B4
>while the L has been upgraded to L3. Do you know what are the improvements,
>if any? Also does the Hamburg also uses the B4 plate? When I checked the
>plate, I only see "Made In Germany" on the tail of the plate.
All excellent questions, but unfortunately I am simply not qualified to
answer them as well as others here can. I would have to hope some
experts on the differences between the Hamburg and NY S&S will chime
in...?
>Thanks for sharing your info and the blind fold test results.
>
>-martin.
It has been my pleasure, and I wish you the very best of luck in
tweaking your "L" into a piano that will completely satisfy you.
Luehrmann
didn't get cut off. Its just that you have to click on either the "Get
Next Segment" button or the "Get All 3 Segments" button in order to see
the rest of the message.
Tom Shaw
On my browser I dont have to click on anything to get the whole message.
Outlook Express.
TS
"Luehrmann" <lueh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u0esu$sfp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> YIKES! A three pager - sorry about that. I see though that the message
> didn't get cut off. Its just that you have to click on either the "Get
> Next Segment" button or the "Get All 3 Segments" button in order to see
> the rest of the message.
>
>
Dave Zappa
Luehrmann wrote in message <8tvr37$eiu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Dave (Moonunit, Dewizel, Dave? - Frank must have finally settled down in
>his old age? *wink*)
Unfortunately Frank died in 1993 of colon cancer (no doubt brought on by
years of neglecting his health, chain smoking Winstons and eating Burnt
Weenie Sandwiches). Also unfortunately I was not an "official" Zappa, it's
a nickname I picked up almost 15 years ago and just have never really tried,
nor wanted to change. Most of my college buddies and former piano buddies
call me Zappa or Zap. My wife calls me constantly, usually while I'm doing
something important.......
If I ever get to Austin I'll look you up!
DZ aka Dave Templeman
Martin
From what you've said here I do believe my salesman is pretty good. Actually
he's the store manager of the Santa Clara piano store. After I complaint he
actually sent an outside tech instead of an inhouse tech and directly
reimburse the guy.
> BTW: I am not a big fan of the level of service one gets from a
> dealer's techs. Most of the highly skilled techs and RPTs rarely remain
> staffed by dealers as they can make a much better living as
> independents. I'm not saying ALL dealer's service is sub-par (so all
> you dealers out there don't attack me), but my experience has shown that
> I, and those I am familiar with have received much better results from
> using independent RPTs than those offered by a dealer.
> Hmmm.... don't give up on your "L" quite yet. Even though it received