Boston GP178 vs Kawai RX-2
Joan Dewey
made by Kawai
with a few modifications by Steinway. The Boston seems to be a couple
thousand more than the Kawai.
Does any know which piano is the better deal?
thanks in advance.
Tom
gl...@fast.net
The Kawai is the better deal between the two. You're paying for an
additional layer of distribution with Steinway making something. Boston
Pianos also typically carry a much higher dealer mark up since there are
fewer dealers to compete with.
You should also check out Yamaha grands if you didn't already.
--
Glenn Grafton, VP
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
Souderton PA (Philadelphia-Allentown area)
http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
1(800)272-5980
Dave Zappa
>
> I am trying to find out which piano is better. I know that Boston is
> made by Kawai
> with a few modifications by Steinway. The Boston seems to be a couple
> thousand more than the Kawai.
>
> Does any know which piano is the better deal?
>
> thanks in advance.
> Tom
There are more than just a "few modifications" between the Boston and
the Kawai. The scale design is completely different & the action is
completely different for starters. Boston is a piano that was designed
ground up at Steinway before Kawai even entered the picture. Anyone who
believes Boston is a "modified Kawai" is fooling themselves.
That being said, you will have to decide for yourself which piano is the
better deal. Tone, touch & aesthetics are completely different on these
pianos, and that's what you should be judging for which piano is better
for you. A difference on a few thousand dollars is not that great
considering the cost of these instruments and the longevity you'll get
from the one you eventually buy.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Glenn L
gl...@fast.net wrote:
>
> In article <3750B475...@home.com>, Joan Dewey <jmd...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > I am trying to find out which piano is better. I know that Boston is
> > made by Kawai
> > with a few modifications by Steinway. The Boston seems to be a couple
> > thousand more than the Kawai.
> >
> > Does any know which piano is the better deal?
> >
> > thanks in advance.
> > Tom
>
> The Kawai is the better deal between the two. You're paying for an
> additional layer of distribution with Steinway making something. Boston
> Pianos also typically carry a much higher dealer mark up since there are
> fewer dealers to compete with.
>
> You should also check out Yamaha grands if you didn't already.
>
> --
> Glenn Grafton, VP
> Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
> Souderton PA (Philadelphia-Allentown area)
> http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
> 1(800)272-5980
I whole heartedly disagree with your point of view. I bought the Boston
GP178 because it is exactly what I wanted. Completely different in
touch and tone than the Kawai. If you can't tell the difference between
pianos, that's fine but there is a big differnce.
I assure you the name Boston/Steinway had no influence on my decision of
Boston over Kawai. I already owned a Kawai console which I loved (which
probably would have made me favor Kawai) and I had never heard of Boston
when I saw it. The Steinway name also did not impress me since I had
not played many Steinways but the ones I have played are so drastically
different from one another it is hard to draw a generalization that "I
like Steinway".
Glenn
Dave Zappa
> > The Kawai is the better deal between the two. You're paying for an
> > additional layer of distribution with Steinway making something. Boston
> > Pianos also typically carry a much higher dealer mark up since there are
> > fewer dealers to compete with.
> > --
> > Glenn Grafton, VP
> > Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
> > Souderton PA (Philadelphia-Allentown area)
> > http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
> > 1(800)272-5980
Can't say that I agree with this viewpoint. First off it assumes that
price is the only issue when determining what piano is the "better
deal". It also assumes (incorrectly I might add) that there is an
"additional layer of distribution". Steinway distributes Boston,
simple. While I'm sure it is true that Steinway pays Kawai to build the
piano you're assuming that Kawai can build an RX2 for less than Steinway
pays to build the Boston GP178. That assumption may very well be true
but the margain of cost most likely is minimal and really wouldn't
greatly effect end user price. I would agree that the limited
distribution AND the limited production of the GP178 vs. the RX2 will
have an effect on end price, but it certainly doesn't automatically
disqualify the Boston as the "best deal". Price isn't everything.
I've heard Kawai salespeople beat this issue to death and quite frankly
I think it's a moot point. The pianos are in the same class in both
cost and quality. It's up to the consumer to decide if the Boston is a
better piano for them. Spoken like a true Boston salesman, huh?
Tom Croft
when I played one at our local Steinway/Boston dealer a few months back.
What impressed me the most was the tone. I haven't played many Steinways,
so I don't have a huge range of experience from which to draw to judge
tone, but I was amazed at how pleasant and "sweet" the Boston sounded, yet
it was plenty powerful and would make an excellent jazz instrument, for
example. When I finally get around to buying a grand someday, the Boston
GP-178 is right at the top of my list of possibilities. The others on my
personal list are the RX-2 or RX-3 from Kawai, the C3 from Yamaha, and
used Steinways or Baldwin Model L's.
To address the original question, I think they're both excellent
medium-priced grands, but the Boston has the edge in tone, IMHO. Both
seem to have pretty decent actions.
Tom
KeeBoardz
Boston is the better deal.
Although people rarely buy pianos planning to sell them, the Boston would be
more likely to retain it's value.
If you like the sound of both, then you will get equal enjoyment from either,
but the Boston has a cold-formed Steinway pear-shaped hammer, which means it
has a broader voicing range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than the Kawai,
and this flexibility is what would make the piano more suitable to us picky
musicians.
Also, Kawai's use of plastic is leading to a lot of criticism that can hurt
future value more than the plastic itself.
One last note, the I have found that the Bostons have better tuning stability
than the Kawai (At least in the show-room, which is where I get to compare most
of them).
Oh.. and if you are looking at those two instruments, see if you can find a
really well voiced Yamaha C2. I had one of my technicians work on one of ours
for a while, and I'll tell ya. I don't want to let go of it.
At any rate, I tend to compare Yamaha to Boston where quality is concerned....
then Kawai to Yamaha where price is an issue.
I care as much about how it will sound and FEEL 10 years from now as I do about
how it sounds today. Yamaha's feel like new after 20 years. Kawai just can't
do that, but for the price they aren't bad.
johnw...@my-deja.com
keeb...@aol.com (KeeBoardz) wrote:
> My company sells both of the pianos that you mention, and I would say that the
> Boston is the better deal.
>
> Although people rarely buy pianos planning to sell them, the Boston would be
> more likely to retain it's value.
I would be really interested to understand why the Boston will hold its value
more than other mass produced Japanese pianos. Can you please tell us why
this will be the case.
> If you like the sound of both, then you will get equal enjoyment from either,
> but the Boston has a cold-formed Steinway pear-shaped hammer, which means it
> has a broader voicing range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than the Kawai,
> and this flexibility is what would make the piano more suitable to us picky
> musicians.
I'll come back to this one.
>
> Also, Kawai's use of plastic is leading to a lot of criticism that can hurt
> future value more than the plastic itself.
Can you please let us know what specific problems Kawai are having with ABS
(plastic) in their actions. I'll reckon you can't name one. Please prove me
wrong. Be sure to tell everyone that Yamaha also use ABS in their uprights.
>
> One last note, the I have found that the Bostons have better tuning stability
> than the Kawai (At least in the show-room, which is where I get to compare most
> of them).
Fact 1: No new piano holds a tuning for very long for the first 12 months.
Fact 2: Kawai pianos have excellent tuning stability.
> Oh.. and if you are looking at those two instruments, see if you can find a
> really well voiced Yamaha C2. I had one of my technicians work on one of ours
> for a while, and I'll tell ya. I don't want to let go of it.
Returning to cold pressed hammers. I have my doubts but I'll take your word
for it that the Boston has cold pressed hammers. You claim these are far
superior because they can be voiced to a "warmer sound" for picky musicians
such as yourself. What type of hammer does you wonderful C2 Yamaha use?
Answer: hot pressed. So much for the superiority of tone of a Boston on the
basis of cold pressed hammers.
> At any rate, I tend to compare Yamaha to Boston where quality is concerned....
> then Kawai to Yamaha where price is an issue.
Cough...splutter....gasp. Who makes Boston? Answer for those who don't
know......Kawai (hey for something different lets have a discussion if a
Boston is a Steinway or a Kawai).
> I care as much about how it will sound and FEEL 10 years from now as I do about
> how it sounds today. Yamaha's feel like new after 20 years. Kawai just can't
> do that, but for the price they aren't bad.
Compare a second hand Kawi GS-30/40 to a Yamah C3 or a GS50/60 to a C5. I
don't know what its like where you live but where I come from a Kawai GS
sells at a premium the instant it comes on the market. Magnificant piano at
the price. IMO, the institutional Kawai's grands that I come in contact with
standup better that Yamaha. There are hundreds of clapped out grey market
C3's setting in piano stores all over my town.
I have no desire to enter into a Yamaha v's Kawai v's Boston war. I happen
to think Yamaha, Boston and Kawai are all fine pianos. You more than imply
Kawai is an inferior piano to Yamaha or Boston. This is simply wrong and
misleading. As people look to this forum to make purchase decisions, I feel
it necessary to correct the 'rubbish' you have written (sorry, I can find no
other word that so accurately describes it). The choice between these 3
brands for similar models is simply a matter of what sound you like, nothing
else.
For the record, I do not own or sell Kawai pianos, and have no association
with the company.
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
pTooner
carried away. I didn't agree with some of the other poster's opinions either, but
they were not misleading or inflammatory. I'm not so sure I can say the same about
yours, and I'm quite sure attacking the man for his opinions is uncalled for. I will
add specifics below.
johnw...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <19990601205141...@ng-fe1.aol.com>,
> keeb...@aol.com (KeeBoardz) wrote:
> > My company sells both of the pianos that you mention, and I would say that the
> > Boston is the better deal.
> >
> > Although people rarely buy pianos planning to sell them, the Boston would be
> > more likely to retain it's value.
>
> I would be really interested to understand why the Boston will hold its value
> more than other mass produced Japanese pianos. Can you please tell us why
> this will be the case.
I thought it was stated as an opinion, and it is likely true. Why? Because of the
association of the Steinway name. This brings perceived value in the long run.
>
>
> > If you like the sound of both, then you will get equal enjoyment from either,
> > but the Boston has a cold-formed Steinway pear-shaped hammer, which means it
> > has a broader voicing range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than the Kawai,
> > and this flexibility is what would make the piano more suitable to us picky
> > musicians.
>
> I'll come back to this one.
Well, I'll say I see nothing wrong with the accurate factual comment.
>
>
> >
> > Also, Kawai's use of plastic is leading to a lot of criticism that can hurt
> > future value more than the plastic itself.
>
> Can you please let us know what specific problems Kawai are having with ABS
> (plastic) in their actions. I'll reckon you can't name one. Please prove me
> wrong. Be sure to tell everyone that Yamaha also use ABS in their uprights.
He didn't say that Kawai was having any problems - he said it "can hurt future value
more than the plastic itself." I completely agree. I think plastic will play a
larger and larger part in the future, but for now it will hurt that perceived value
again.
>
>
> >
> > One last note, the I have found that the Bostons have better tuning stability
> > than the Kawai (At least in the show-room, which is where I get to compare most
> > of them).
>
> Fact 1: No new piano holds a tuning for very long for the first 12 months.
> Fact 2: Kawai pianos have excellent tuning stability.
True, and Fact 3 he stated the conditions under which he had observed this. If he
says it I see no reason to doubt him. As to your Fact 2, you are correct.
>
>
> > Oh.. and if you are looking at those two instruments, see if you can find a
> > really well voiced Yamaha C2. I had one of my technicians work on one of ours
> > for a while, and I'll tell ya. I don't want to let go of it.
>
> Returning to cold pressed hammers. I have my doubts but I'll take your word
> for it that the Boston has cold pressed hammers. You claim these are far
> superior because they can be voiced to a "warmer sound" for picky musicians
> such as yourself. What type of hammer does you wonderful C2 Yamaha use?
> Answer: hot pressed. So much for the superiority of tone of a Boston on the
> basis of cold pressed hammers.
You're really starting to put words in his mouth here. He did NOT say that the cold
pressed hammers were "far superior." He said they were easier to voice. He is
right. He did not say that the Boston had a superiority of ton either. If you wish
to argue with the man, argue with what he SAID not what you read into it.
>
>
> > At any rate, I tend to compare Yamaha to Boston where quality is concerned....
> > then Kawai to Yamaha where price is an issue.
>
> Cough...splutter....gasp. Who makes Boston? Answer for those who don't
> know......Kawai (hey for something different lets have a discussion if a
> Boston is a Steinway or a Kawai).
Well, I think they all three are of comparable quality. I don't know exactly what he
meant by that statement. Why don't you ask him to clarify it instead of attacking
it.
>
>
> > I care as much about how it will sound and FEEL 10 years from now as I do about
> > how it sounds today. Yamaha's feel like new after 20 years. Kawai just can't
> > do that, but for the price they aren't bad.
>
> Compare a second hand Kawi GS-30/40 to a Yamah C3 or a GS50/60 to a C5. I
> don't know what its like where you live but where I come from a Kawai GS
> sells at a premium the instant it comes on the market. Magnificant piano at
> the price. IMO, the institutional Kawai's grands that I come in contact with
> standup better that Yamaha.
I agree with you here. However, how can you possibly justify including the following
statement:
> There are hundreds of clapped out grey market
> C3's setting in piano stores all over my town.
>
> I have no desire to enter into a Yamaha v's Kawai v's Boston war. I happen
> to think Yamaha, Boston and Kawai are all fine pianos. You more than imply
> Kawai is an inferior piano to Yamaha or Boston. This is simply wrong and
> misleading.
I didn't read it that way. FWIW, I prefer Kawai to either of the others in the same
price range.
> As people look to this forum to make purchase decisions, I feel
> it necessary to correct the 'rubbish' you have written (sorry, I can find no
> other word that so accurately describes it). The choice between these 3
> brands for similar models is simply a matter of what sound you like, nothing
> else.
>
>
I agree with your last statement. I heartily disagree with your characterization of
someone else's honest attempt at communication as "rubbish".
Gerry
Glenn L
johnw...@my-deja.com wrote:
snip
> > Also, Kawai's use of plastic is leading to a lot of criticism that can hurt
> > future value more than the plastic itself.
>
> Can you please let us know what specific problems Kawai are having with ABS
> (plastic) in their actions. I'll reckon you can't name one. Please prove me
> wrong. Be sure to tell everyone that Yamaha also use ABS in their uprights.
>
> John
>
snip
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
My 18 year old Kawai CE7 console had plastic and my tuner had to start re-pinning
them because some of the hammers were either sluggish or not returning at all. He
said the plastic was shrinking. While it was an easy and inexpensive fix, it was a
result of the plastic. The only reason I traded the piano was to get a grand (a
Boston) and not because of the plastic issues.
On the Kawai vs Boston issue, I'll say it again that the pianos are different in
touch and tone. Just because Kawai manufactures both pianos doesn't mean they're the
same. Many companies make products for Radio Shack to RS's specs and I have found
they are usually inferior to the original manufacturer which makes both. I've heard
Canon makes the printer engines for HP printers yet I find Canon inferior. It works
both ways and the two pianos need to be evaluated on their own.
Glenn
johnw...@my-deja.com
IMO, the post clearly conveyed the message without a single supportable fact
that a Kawai was a inferior instrument to a Boston or a Yamaha. IMO, and
I'll state it again, this is rubbish.
In article <37582521...@geddings.net>,
pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
> > > Although people rarely buy pianos planning to sell them, the Boston would be
> > > more likely to retain it's value.
> >
> > I would be really interested to understand why the Boston will hold its value
> > more than other mass produced Japanese pianos. Can you please tell us why
> > this will be the case.
>
> I thought it was stated as an opinion, and it is likely true. Why? Because of the
> association of the Steinway name. This brings perceived value in the long run.
At no time did I say that this statement was not correct or I disagree.
However for the benefit of any potential buyer/seller I thought it worth
drawing out that any additional 'value' is only because of "the association
of the Steinway name" and nothing else, pure illusion. Put another way
"marketing hype".
> >
> > > If you like the sound of both, then you will get equal enjoyment from either,
> > > but the Boston has a cold-formed Steinway pear-shaped hammer, which means it
> > > has a broader voicing range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than the Kawai,
> > > and this flexibility is what would make the piano more suitable to us picky
> > > musicians.
> >
> > I'll come back to this one.
>
> Well, I'll say I see nothing wrong with the accurate factual comment.
>
A Boston "has a broader voicing range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than
the Kawai and this flexibility is what would make the piano more suitable to
us picky musicians"
This is an "accurate factual ststement"? The facts are that different makers
and technicians have different preferences in hammer construction, all
equally valid. Different voicing techniques are applicable.
> > >
> > > Also, Kawai's use of plastic is leading to a lot of criticism that can hurt
> > > future value more than the plastic itself.
> >
> > Can you please let us know what specific problems Kawai are having with ABS
> > (plastic) in their actions. I'll reckon you can't name one. Please prove me
> > wrong. Be sure to tell everyone that Yamaha also use ABS in their uprights.
>
> He didn't say that Kawai was having any problems - he said it "can hurt future value
> more than the plastic itself." I completely agree. I think plastic will play a
> larger and larger part in the future, but for now it will hurt that perceived value
> again.
FACT, it is not hurting value. I provided the evidence to back this up in
that used GS series Kawai's (with ABS) sell at a premium. The fact is that
the tone of the piano for classical music sell the instrument and buyers
don't care that the action has ABS.
The statement that "the use of plastic IS leading to a lot of criticism" is
simply misleading to an uninformed reader. Is it being critisized by expert
sources (no), people who's experience is only plastic of the 50's (maybe), or
buy salespeople who will use any tactic to mislead a unknowing public (yes).
> > > One last note, the I have found that the Bostons have better tuning stability
> > > than the Kawai (At least in the show-room, which is where I get to compare most
> > > of them).
> >
> > Fact 1: No new piano holds a tuning for very long for the first 12 months.
> > Fact 2: Kawai pianos have excellent tuning stability.
>
> True, and Fact 3 he stated the conditions under which he had observed this. If he
> says it I see no reason to doubt him. As to your Fact 2, you are correct.
>
No Gerry, he stated that he observed that in the showroom Bostons exhibited
better tuning stability than Kawai. Well this is what he may observe, then
again........ However, IMO it implied that Bostons had better tuning
stability to Kawai. There is simply no basis to a statement like this and it
is highly misleading.
> >
> > > Oh.. and if you are looking at those two instruments, see if you can find a
> > > really well voiced Yamaha C2. I had one of my technicians work on one of ours
> > > for a while, and I'll tell ya. I don't want to let go of it.
> >
> > Returning to cold pressed hammers. I have my doubts but I'll take your word
> > for it that the Boston has cold pressed hammers. You claim these are far
> > superior because they can be voiced to a "warmer sound" for picky musicians
> > such as yourself. What type of hammer does you wonderful C2 Yamaha use?
> > Answer: hot pressed. So much for the superiority of tone of a Boston on the
> > basis of cold pressed hammers.
>
> You're really starting to put words in his mouth here. He did NOT say that the cold
> pressed hammers were "far superior." He said they were easier to voice.
Sorry Gerry, he did not say that. He said they have "a broader voicing
range, and can be voiced to sound warmer than the Kawai and this flexibility
is what would make the piano more suitable to us picky musicians". As you
accuse me of putting words into his mouth I'll go right ahead and do it "the
cold pressed hammers of the Boston can be made to sound better than hot
pressed hammers of the Kawai". Again, misleading.
> >
> > > At any rate, I tend to compare Yamaha to Boston where quality is concerned....
> > > then Kawai to Yamaha where price is an issue.
> >
> > Cough...splutter....gasp. Who makes Boston? Answer for those who don't
> > know......Kawai (hey for something different lets have a discussion if a
> > Boston is a Steinway or a Kawai).
>
> Well, I think they all three are of comparable quality. I don't know exactly what he
> meant by that statement. Why don't you ask him to clarify it instead of attacking
> it.
Sorry Gerry, it is so wrong that I don't need him to explain it. He was
stating that Kawai's are lesser quality than Boston or Yamaha. His statement
is simply WRONG.
> > > I care as much about how it will sound and FEEL 10 years from now as I do about
> > > how it sounds today. Yamaha's feel like new after 20 years. Kawai just can't
> > > do that, but for the price they aren't bad.
> >
> > Compare a second hand Kawi GS-30/40 to a Yamah C3 or a GS50/60 to a C5. I
> > don't know what its like where you live but where I come from a Kawai GS
> > sells at a premium the instant it comes on the market. Magnificant piano at
> > the price. IMO, the institutional Kawai's grands that I come in contact with
> > standup better that Yamaha.
>
> I agree with you here. However, how can you possibly justify including the following
> statement:
>
> > There are hundreds of clapped out grey market
> > C3's setting in piano stores all over my town.
As you didn't break just the above statement out, I must assume this is the
one you question. This is a FACT. Used gray market grands are flooding in
where I live by the container load. These piano's have had a real pounding.
I am coming into contact with hundreds of well worn Kawai KG's and Yamaha G's
and C's. From my experience, the used Kawai's are holding up better (a point
with which you agree). Lets not argue that Kawai's hold up better, lets just
agree that they hold up equally as well as the Yamaha. When somebody makes
the statement "Yamaha's feel like new after 20 years. Kawai just can't do
that", I feel that describing this as 'rubbish' is a very mild response to
this highly incorrect statement.
> > I have no desire to enter into a Yamaha v's Kawai v's Boston war. I happen
> > to think Yamaha, Boston and Kawai are all fine pianos. You more than imply
> > Kawai is an inferior piano to Yamaha or Boston. This is simply wrong and
> > misleading.
>
> I didn't read it that way. FWIW, I prefer Kawai to either of the others in the same
> price range.
Well Gerry now that you raise it, I too happen to think that the Kawai's are
better than the other 2 brands. However, I suggest that you re-read the
original post. I struggle to see how you could not interpret the following
statements as a put down of Kawai: * The use of plastic is leading to a lot
of criticism * I tend to compare Yamaha to Boston where quality is concerned,
then Kawai to Yamaha where price is an issue * Yanaha feel like new after 20
years, Kawai just can't do that.
> > As people look to this forum to make purchase decisions, I feel
> > it necessary to correct the 'rubbish' you have written (sorry, I can find no
> > other word that so accurately describes it). The choice between these 3
> > brands for similar models is simply a matter of what sound you like, nothing
> > else.
>
> I agree with your last statement. I heartily disagree with your characterization of
> someone else's honest attempt at communication as "rubbish".
>
> Gerry
Like everyone else, I have read a lot of "rubbish" in the NG and perhaps my
contributions simply add to it. The post I responded too just happened to
contain more rubbish than any I can easily remember.
Regards,
John
Don Mannino RPT
news:375959F3...@NOSPAM.bcpl.net...
> My 18 year old Kawai CE7 console had plastic and my tuner had to start
re-pinning
> them because some of the hammers were either sluggish or not returning at
all. He
> said the plastic was shrinking
Your piano tuner was in error here. ABS cannot shrink, but the wool bushing
cloth can swell (as it can in any action) under some conditions, causing the
action centers to become tight. There are many other potential causes for
tight action centers, but shrinking ABS is not one of them.
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America