perfect pitch
BabeGrand
>In article <4qp2u9$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>BabeGrand <babe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>The article is right. I would go even further and claim that having
perfect
>>pitch is indispensable for reaching a really high standard in any
musical
>>skill.
>I don't have perfect pitch; I think I've reached a fairly high standard
of
>piano playing, and don't feel limited by my lack of perfect pitch. Could
>you explain why having perfect pitch is at all useful (let alone
>"indispensabe") in playing the piano?
Okay, maybe I went too far; I don't insist. Let me phrase it like that:
Personal experience and feeling lead me to believe that fine piano playing
and an extremely sensitive ear are closely linked, and I am not sure
whether the first is possible without the latter.
Think of admission tests for Universities or Schools of Music, for
example. They always contain a hearing test, which is almost as important
as your piano performance, and much more important than the theoretical
test. Furthermore, all music students I have met so far, who were very
good on their instruments, invariably had perfect pitch. Finally, I am not
sure if one can percieve (and consequentially express!) the harmonical
character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
So, no more *claims* on this subject from my side, just personal opinions.
-- Martin
"I have never searched for happiness. Martin Uhlenbrock
Who wants happiness? I have Freiburg, West-Germany
searched for pleasure." Tel/Fax: +49-761-283642
-- Oscar Wilde e-mail: babe...@aol.com
Carl Tait
BabeGrand <babe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Okay, maybe I went too far; I don't insist. Let me phrase it like that:
>Personal experience and feeling lead me to believe that fine piano playing
>and an extremely sensitive ear are closely linked, and I am not sure
>whether the first is possible without the latter.
I agree, but "perfect pitch" and "an extremely sensitive ear" are not
the same thing. Many of the great pianists did not have perfect pitch.
There was an article some years back that listed the haves and the
have-nots; unfortunately, I can't locate it at the moment. As I
remember, Horowitz had perfect pitch but Rubinstein did not.
>If you don't
>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
>difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
>the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
Keep in mind that pitch has gone up about a half-step in the past 200 years.
In fact, Beethoven wrote the Emperor in what we today call D major, more or
less. (I gather you're not a fan of original-instruments, original-pitch
recordings!)
Also, the part about not being able to hear the difference is debatable.
I don't have perfect pitch, but almost always notice if a recording of
a piece I know is playing at slightly the wrong pitch (off-the-air tapes
from other collectors often have this problem). The difference in
speed is negligible; it's the *pitch* that sounds immediately wrong.
In such cases, I can usually tell if it's flat or sharp, though I won't
know absolute names for individual notes. There's even a bootleg *CD*
of Horowitz (on the Stradivarius label) with the Tschaikovsky PC 1 pitched
a half-step low. I groaned in distress after the first four notes.
Carl Tait
Eric Joel Bruskin
writes:
>[snip]
>Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
>difference.
Isn't this contradictory? If keys really have "distinctive" musical
character, then why wouldn't you hear the difference even without
perfect pitch?
I would also think that the instrument involved is relevant. I play
both piano and flute, and I don't have perfect pitch. On the flute,
each note has a distinctive timbre, and I can certainly tell a high "E"
from a high "D" (for example) because the flute's high "E" (3 lines
above the treble staff) is relatively unstable and instantly
recognizable to a flutist. A similar thing applies on stringed
instruments, of course, at least with respect to open strings. (Ever
listen to a group of 100 6-year old Suzuki violinists?)
But on the piano, I can't really tell the difference between one pitch
and another.
I wish I had perfect pitch so that I could more easily follow the tonal
structure of late-romantic music. I lose track of the key in music that
modulates alot. (Frankly, I even lose it often in classical-period
sonatas. When I foolishly admitted this in a harmony class, the teacher
made a disparaging remark. But afterwards, everyone told me they had
the same problem. Now I read in the psychoacoustics/cognitive science
literature that most people, even trained musicians, can't perceive
long-range tonal structure!)
But I'm glad I don't have perfect pitch when those who do have it tell
me that many recordings drive them nuts because they're just a little
bit off pitch.
Chris Newman
On 28 Jun 1996 13:03:25 -0400, babe...@aol.com (BabeGrand) wrote:
> Finally, I am not sure if one can percieve (and consequentially express!) the harmonical
>character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
>with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
>difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
>the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
What is "perfect pitch" anyway. The standard a' = 440 was only set in
1939, so the Beethoven's piano concerto you hear now would have a
different "flavour" to that heard in Beethoven's time anyway, wouldn't
it?
I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
the world have perfect pitch, but I'm sure there are also those who
don't. (Does anyone know any examples?)
I believe it is necessary to have a good ear to be a good musician,
but that includes relative pitch, not necessarily the ability to
precicely identify a particular pitch out of context of other pitches.
That's my $0.02.
Chris N
--
Chris Newman
Boris Kim
In article <31d8068e...@news.powerup.com.au>, new...@powerup.com.au
(Chris Newman) wrote:
> > Finally, I am not sure if one can percieve (and consequentially
express!) the harmonical
> >character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
> >with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
> >have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
> >concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
> >difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
> >the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
>
>
> I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
> musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
> who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
> the world have perfect pitch, but I'm sure there are also those who
> don't. (Does anyone know any examples?)
>
Wasn't Beethoven considered to be a great muscian even when he was deaf?
Being deaf, he could discern neither relative pitch nor absolute pitch.
Boris
Chris Newman
On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:52:08 GMT, bk...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Boris Kim)
wrote:
>>
>> I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
>> musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
>> who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
>> the world have perfect pitch, but I'm sure there are also those who
>> don't. (Does anyone know any examples?)
>Wasn't Beethoven considered to be a great muscian even when he was deaf?
>Being deaf, he could discern neither relative pitch nor absolute pitch.
Hmmmm. Assuming Beethoven had perfect pitch when he could hear, he
would still have known the exact pitch of any note and heard it in his
head when he was deaf. So he would still have had perfect pitch.
[This is how that incredible deaf percussionist from Scotland (what's
her name?) can play a zylophone piece - she had perfect pitch when she
was a child, became deaf as a teenager and now just hears it all, at
pitch, in her head. (Isn't that amazing!)]
Chris N
Ken Iisaka
Boris Kim wrote:
> Wasn't Beethoven considered to be a great muscian even when he was deaf?
> Being deaf, he could discern neither relative pitch nor absolute pitch.
His deafness did not develop until later in his life.
--
Are we - _~@ __@ __@ _~@ Ken Iisaka <kii...@morgan.com>
there _,\=\=\-\_ _,\=\=\-\_ Morgan Stanley Japan, Ltd
yet? (*)/===/'(*) (*)/===/'(*) Tokyo, Japan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Steve Collier
new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:52:08 GMT, bk...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Boris Kim)
>wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
>>> musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
>>> who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
>[This is how that incredible deaf percussionist from Scotland (what's
>her name?) can play a zylophone piece - she had perfect pitch when she
>was a child, became deaf as a teenager and now just hears it all, at
>pitch, in her head. (Isn't that amazing!)]
Evelyn Glennie (sp?) but I thought she also says she feels the vibrations
__________________________________________^______________________________
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Rachel Jimenez
In article <31da29ea...@news.powerup.com.au>, new...@powerup.com.au
(Chris Newman) wrote:
> [This is how that incredible deaf percussionist from Scotland (what's
> her name?) can play a zylophone piece - she had perfect pitch when she
> was a child, became deaf as a teenager and now just hears it all, at
> pitch, in her head. (Isn't that amazing!)]
>
> Chris N
Her name is Evelyn Glennie. I played the piano part when she performed
the Thea Musgrave Marimba Concerto this spring at New England
Conservatory. She's completely brilliant. I've heard she has a great web
site. Check it out to learn more about her.
--
Rachel
John DeCicco
new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) wrote:
>On 28 Jun 1996 13:03:25 -0400, babe...@aol.com (BabeGrand) wrote:
>> Finally, I am not sure if one can percieve (and consequentially express!) the harmonical
>>character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
>>with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
>>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
>>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
>>difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
>>the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
>What is "perfect pitch" anyway. The standard a' = 440 was only set in
>1939, so the Beethoven's piano concerto you hear now would have a
>different "flavour" to that heard in Beethoven's time anyway, wouldn't
>it?
>I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
>musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
>who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
>the world have perfect pitch, but I'm sure there are also those who
>don't. (Does anyone know any examples?)
>I believe it is necessary to have a good ear to be a good musician,
>but that includes relative pitch, not necessarily the ability to
>precicely identify a particular pitch out of context of other pitches.
>That's my $0.02.
>Chris N
>--
>Chris Newman
Hello Chris,
As you imply, I don't know if having PP increases one's enjoyment of
music. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way. On occasion, while
driving, I'll be "reading" what I am hearing on the radio. Since for
me, it takes up a lot of my mnd's "RAM," my attention to driving is
temporarily lost. Not a good long term plan!
As BabeGrand noted, however, if a piece is in a different key than one
is used to hearing, it certainly has a different feel to it.
Does anyone have Synesthesia? It's a combining of 2 or more senses.
In my case, I merge musical pitches with colors. Eg, A minor is light
blue, F Major is white, etc. If the piece is in the wrong key, it
will also be in the wrong color!
John DeCicco
Brandon, VT
Dan Schmidt
jdec...@sover.net (John DeCicco) writes:
| As you imply, I don't know if having PP increases one's enjoyment of
| music. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way.
I find that perfect pitch comes in really handy when listening to
music of the classical period (around 1750-1850). During a Beethoven
development, it's pretty difficult to follow the modulations just by
relative pitch; hearing absolute pitch allows me to say "Let's see, I
remember this movement started in A, and we're in C# now; that's
pretty far afield." Plus it's easy to tell when the modulations come
around to the dominant, preparing the recapitulation.
Perfect pitch is also often quite useful in listening to some atonal
music, if you're paying attention. If the composer is making a big
deal of some particular pitches or pitch classes, it will be audible.
I don't think pitch is that useful in playing the piano, though.
Dan Schmidt | df...@lglass.com | http://www2.lglass.com/~dfan
Glenn Mandelkern
In article <4rpvqm$g...@thrush.sover.net>,
John DeCicco <jdec...@sover.net> wrote:
>new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) wrote:
>
>>On 28 Jun 1996 13:03:25 -0400, babe...@aol.com (BabeGrand) wrote:
>
>>> Finally, I am not sure if one can percieve (and consequentially express!) the harmonical
>>>character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
>>>with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
>>>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
>>>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
>>>difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
>>>the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
>
So what key is "Happy Birthday" in? I've always cracked up when hearing
some people start out on different notes, then a dominant louder voice
leads the group to the eventual ending key. From one birthday party to
the next, I don't hear it in the same key. But if I was told it was in A
which I like and then some loudmouth starts singing it in C that would
ruin my day :-)
Several times I have been in concerts, specifically waiting for a piece
to be done in a given key. When it has been transposed to a different
key, especially one I am not crazy about, I end up very disappointed.
I wonder if I would be able to get my money back by filing something
like a refund slip and supply as a reason for dissatisfaction "Customer
with perfect pitch demands refund. Song was performed in G, not the
expected A-flat."
I almost did that once with a walkman-type cassette player which played
everything a half-step up. Luckily, I found its schematic along with
the owner's manual and saw a speed control was on its circuit board.
I adjusted it and it did not bother me again.
On the other hand, it's possible that a song that was pretty dull for me
in one key will take on completely new life for me in the transposed key.
The most extreme example I like to use to point this out to others is
transposing a song a diminished 5th. Songs in B minor I'm not too
crazy about astound me when performed in F minor.
>
>>I believe it is necessary to have a good ear to be a good musician,
>>but that includes relative pitch, not necessarily the ability to
>>precicely identify a particular pitch out of context of other pitches.
>
Definite agreement here; perfect pitch is useful in some instances
(e.g., determining which of 4 phones is ringing in the office when
you know yours is E-flat and your coworkers are C, G and A-sharp)
but musicians benefit much more from having relative pitch.
>
>As BabeGrand noted, however, if a piece is in a different key than one
>is used to hearing, it certainly has a different feel to it.
>
>Does anyone have Synesthesia? It's a combining of 2 or more senses.
>In my case, I merge musical pitches with colors. Eg, A minor is light
>blue, F Major is white, etc. If the piece is in the wrong key, it
>will also be in the wrong color!
>
Scriabin had this condition as well. It is written about in this one
book on multimedia computing published by Osborne. 12 notes are listed
along with the colors he envisioned with each. I believe A-flat was
purple, but I do not recall any songs from Barney the Dinosaur being
done in that key :-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern "Hee, hee, hee, hee!" -- Questor the Elf
gma...@netcom.com "When passion runs deep,
San Jose, CA you're playing for keeps" -- Keith Emerson
Games, GUI's and Entertainment What does Motif sound like in the key of C++?
philo von mtein
In article <31e45c3e...@news.powerup.com.au>,
Chris Newman <new...@powerup.com.au> wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 03:40:59 GMT, jdec...@sover.net (John DeCicco)
>wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have Synesthesia? It's a combining of 2 or more senses.
>>In my case, I merge musical pitches with colors. Eg, A minor is light
>>blue, F Major is white, etc. If the piece is in the wrong key, it
>>will also be in the wrong color!
Messiaen (however you spell his name!) had this condition . He says it
came to him after he was held in a POW camp during world war two,
because of the bad food :+)
-philo.
--
L'Autre: Je donne ma folie. (il la drape d'une etole rouge). Oui son
eclat te va. Regarde bien Victoire, tu me ressembles un peu... non, ne
t'en vas pas. (nadia tueni, piece en plusieurs poemes et plusieurs titres)
Chris Newman
>Does anyone have Synesthesia? It's a combining of 2 or more senses.
>In my case, I merge musical pitches with colors. Eg, A minor is light
>blue, F Major is white, etc. If the piece is in the wrong key, it
>will also be in the wrong color!
I'm intrigued John. Do you associate the keys with a colour, just as
I associate the feeling of warmth with say orange or red and coolness
with green and blue? And if so, what is the basis for your
association? Or do you actually see the colours?
Chris N
Chris Newman
On 08 Jul 1996 09:58:01 -0400, Dan Schmidt <dsch...@mit.edu> wrote:
>I find that perfect pitch comes in really handy when listening to
>music of the classical period (around 1750-1850). During a Beethoven
>development, it's pretty difficult to follow the modulations just by
>relative pitch; hearing absolute pitch allows me to say "Let's see, I
>remember this movement started in A, and we're in C# now; that's
>pretty far afield." Plus it's easy to tell when the modulations come
>around to the dominant, preparing the recapitulation.
Is it necessary to know an exact modulation to be able to appreciate
the music? Those of us without perfect pitch can sense the increase
in tension - isn't that what it's all about? Does rationalising the
key you are in and it's relationship to the tonic increase your
enjoyment of the music as you hear it? Doesn't it interfere with the
emotional response you get from it?
A question to postulate - if a composer with perfect pitch writes a
piece of music can it only be fully appreciated by someone with
perfect pitch. Are those of us without PP missing out!?
Chris N
Dan Schmidt
new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) writes:
| On 08 Jul 1996 09:58:01 -0400, Dan Schmidt <dsch...@mit.edu> wrote:
|
| >I find that perfect pitch comes in really handy when listening to
| >music of the classical period (around 1750-1850). During a Beethoven
| >development, it's pretty difficult to follow the modulations just by
| >relative pitch; hearing absolute pitch allows me to say "Let's see, I
| >remember this movement started in A, and we're in C# now; that's
| >pretty far afield." Plus it's easy to tell when the modulations come
| >around to the dominant, preparing the recapitulation.
|
| Is it necessary to know an exact modulation to be able to appreciate
| the music? Those of us without perfect pitch can sense the increase
| in tension - isn't that what it's all about?
Tension can be increased in many ways. One of the more subtle is
through modulation. Sometimes a section of music may be lacking in
surface tension (ha ha) while being very harmonically unstable in
relation to the piece as a whole. The development of Beethoven's 6th
Symphony is a good example. (This example, of course, doesn't require
perfect pitch to understand.)
| Does rationalising the key you are in and it's relationship to the
| tonic increase your enjoyment of the music as you hear it? Doesn't
| it interfere with the emotional response you get from it?
It is true that the tension resulting from modulation is more
"rational", but I find that a lot of my enjoyment of music comes from
on-the-fly analysis (of varying depth) of it. Music is a fairly
logical art; much appreciation of it comes from appreciating the
logic. This is true from the smallest scale, where phrase symmetry or
nice voice-leading is very aesthetically pleasing and triggers an
emotional response, to the largest scale.
Sonata form evolved from very simple, small forms which go to the
dominant and back, and are very perceivable as such. A minuet
(ignoring the trio for now) from a classical symphony is just a sonata
in miniature. At this level, the modulations are obvious. When you
extend this to ten minutes or more, the long-range harmonic structure
becomes harder and harder to hear. At what point does it become
simply "rationalising" and no longer an "emotional response?" There
is no simple answer.
| A question to postulate - if a composer with perfect pitch writes a
| piece of music can it only be fully appreciated by someone with
| perfect pitch. Are those of us without PP missing out!?
No one listening to a piece of music fully appreciates it, in the
sense that they understand everything that is going on. There are
many layers; it's a question of how many layers deep you understand.
It is easier to understand the surface layer in Mozart than in
Schoenberg, but there are things going on in Mozart, especially
long-range structure, that are usually not "fully appreciated," and if
you don't perceive them, then you are "missing out." It's a question
of what level you start missing out at.
I hope this hasn't gotten too far off-topic for rec.music.makers.piano.
John DeCicco
new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) wrote:
>Chris N
Hello Chris,
The association, in my case, is one way. When I hear pitches, I
connect then with colors. I don't "see" the colors, but rather "feel"
them. As you describe above, different colors have different feels to
them. Eg, E is green and E flat is a very deep green, somber.
When I see colors in reality, I don't associate them with pitches.
I recently learned of a book entitled "The Man Who Tasted Shapes." I
forget who wrote it, but he describes synesthesia in other forms as
well. In the title example, the person doesn't actually taste the
shapes, but rather senses them as a merging of other senses.
The speed of the association varies, too. If it is one of the more
common notes (C, G, F, B flat), the connection is about as fast as
identifying an observed color in reality. Others require a longer
"evaluation" time.
Cheers,
John DeCicco
Brandon, VT
Chris Newman
On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:49:28 GMT, gma...@netcom.com (Glenn Mandelkern)
wrote:
>....So what key is "Happy Birthday" in? I've always cracked up when hearing
>some people start out on different notes, then a dominant louder voice
>leads the group to the eventual ending key. From one birthday party to
>the next, I don't hear it in the same key. But if I was told it was in A
>which I like and then some loudmouth starts singing it in C that would
>ruin my day :-)
"Happy Birthday" is polytonal. (That's the way I've always heard it
performed) <g>
Chris N
Emil Gilliam
In article <4s7701$k...@thrush.sover.net>,
jdec...@sover.net (John DeCicco) wrote:
>The association, in my case, is one way. When I hear pitches, I
>connect then with colors. I don't "see" the colors, but rather "feel"
>them. As you describe above, different colors have different feels to
>them. Eg, E is green and E flat is a very deep green, somber.
>
>When I see colors in reality, I don't associate them with pitches.
>
[stuff deleted]
Very interesting. I, too, have a one-way association (pitches -> colors), and
for me, E-flat is also a very deep, "somber" green, but perhaps with a little
blue in it (somewhere between forest green and deep aqua). Like you, I don't
actually see the colors, but I "feel" them. E-flat minor also happens to be
my favorite key to compose in (although I don't really compose seriously...)
It takes me a little time to make the association, though, so I only make the
connection with individual notes, or with the key of a piece. I don't imagine
color with every note in a piece - it gets in the way of my listening to the
piece, and generally the notes go by too fast for me to do that.
I'm 17 and I have been making these associations for just about as long as I
have taken piano (since I was 4 or so). I also associate colors with the
letters of the alphabet, and for the musical letters A-G, the colors are the
same for the letters as they are for the notes.
A couple of years ago I started wondering why I associate these specific
colors with notes and letters... then I realized that they correspond exactly
to the Fisher-Price magnetic letters I played with constantly when I was 3 to
5 years old! A is red, B is orange, C is yellow, D is green, E is blue, F is
purple (the colors of the rainbow... how convenient)... then at G the cycle
starts all over again at red. Somehow this spilled over into my perception of
music during my early years of piano. For flat or sharp notes I have,
unconsciously, filled in colors close to the surrounding natural notes,
although it's not very precise.
Has anyone here had a similar experience? I wonder in what other ways the
toys one played with during the developmental years could affect associations
later on down the road.
-Emil
Fritz Owens
On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, John DeCicco wrote:
> new...@powerup.com.au (Chris Newman) wrote:
>
> >On 28 Jun 1996 13:03:25 -0400, babe...@aol.com (BabeGrand) wrote:
>
> >> Finally, I am not sure if one can percieve (and consequentially express!) the harmonical
> >>character of a piece, when one cannot hear what key it is in, to start
> >>with. Certain keys have a very distinctive musical character. If you don't
> >>have perfect pitch and would listen to, say, Beethoven's 5th piano
> >>concerto transposed into D major, without reference you won't hear the
> >>difference. If you have perfect pitch, such a transposition would destroy
> >>the piece for you, distort it beyond belief.
>
> >What is "perfect pitch" anyway. The standard a' = 440 was only set in
> >1939, so the Beethoven's piano concerto you hear now would have a
> >different "flavour" to that heard in Beethoven's time anyway, wouldn't
> >it?
>
> >I have known people with perfect pitch who haven't had much
> >musicality. (On the other hand I have known more without perfect pitch
> >who haven't had *any* musicality :) ! ) Many of the great musicians of
> >the world have perfect pitch, but I'm sure there are also those who
> >don't. (Does anyone know any examples?)
>
> >I believe it is necessary to have a good ear to be a good musician,
> >but that includes relative pitch, not necessarily the ability to
> >precicely identify a particular pitch out of context of other pitches.
>
> >That's my $0.02.
>
> >Chris N
> >--
> >Chris Newman
>
> Hello Chris,
>
> As you imply, I don't know if having PP increases one's enjoyment of
> music. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way. On occasion, while
> driving, I'll be "reading" what I am hearing on the radio. Since for
> me, it takes up a lot of my mnd's "RAM," my attention to driving is
> temporarily lost. Not a good long term plan!
>
> As BabeGrand noted, however, if a piece is in a different key than one
> is used to hearing, it certainly has a different feel to it.
>
> Does anyone have Synesthesia? It's a combining of 2 or more senses.
> In my case, I merge musical pitches with colors. Eg, A minor is light
> blue, F Major is white, etc. If the piece is in the wrong key, it
> will also be in the wrong color!
>
> John DeCicco
> Brandon, VT
>
That's some interesting thoughts on perfect pitch. I don't have it but I
do have fairly good relative pitch. Once my day starts and I hear a
student play the first couple of measures, my ear is in tune for the day
and I don't seem to have any difficulty identifying keys, chords and
musical phrases. The transposition key on my electronics keyboards is
totally useless to me. If I'm playing in the Key of C and press the
transposition button to move up a half step, I immediately start "seeing"
and hearing the notes in the Key of D flat. As this goes on, playing the
notes in the Key of C distracts me so bad that I cannot continue. My
hands keep trying to play the notes in the Key of D flat and everything
gets twisted up. I've done some accompaniment work in the studio where I
could fool my ear by pressing the transposition before starting the song
but use of the transposition key is totally useless to me in the middle
of a song. Anyone ever experience this?
__ _ . ___ ___
|_ |_) | | /
| | \ | | /__
fo...@www.gnofn.org
Way down yonder in New Orleans
A440A
Oliver Klee writes;
>Nowadays, as well-tempered tuning is almost >always used, the use of a
certain
>key for a certain 'taste' does not apply anymore. >Once, when tuning was
based
>_completely- on overtones, the distances between >the half-tones were not
>exactly the same, thus resulting in each key to >have its own taste.
=================
The tuning in vogue today is not Well-tempering, but rather, equal
tempering. You are right when you say that the half-tones were not
equally spaced, but the overtones are still the defining method of
setting temperaments.
regards
Ed Foote
nashville
Ernest Barreto
In article <4t2u42$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, A440A <a4...@aol.com> wrote:
>The tuning in vogue today is not Well-tempering, but rather, equal
>
>regards
>Ed Foote
>nashville
Can you stand another naive question on this subject? All the
terminology that has been thrown around has me confused. Please
tell me if this is correct:
The overwhelming majority of pianos today are equal-tempered. This
means that the difference in frequency (fundamental oscillations)
between any two half-steps is exactly the same for all the half-steps.
The harmonics may or may not be the same.
yes? no?
thanks,
Ernie
Oliver Klee
Nowadays, as well-tempered tuning is almost always used, the use of a certain
key for a certain 'taste' does not apply anymore. Once, when tuning was based
_completely- on overtones, the distances between the half-tones were not
exactly the same, thus resulting in each key to have its own taste.
But these days, the only effect on the hearer may be that he likes (or
dislikes) the song more if it's a bit lower or higher in pitch / tune.
Another thing, whcih cannot be denied but is quit seldom, is the getting-
accustomed to a key for eg. a day or so. Seems quit interesting to me, BTW.
Oliver Klee
kl...@athene.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Philip Delaquess
In article <4t33bb$f...@fractal.umd.edu> bar...@Glue.umd.edu (Ernest
Barreto) writes:
> The overwhelming majority of pianos today are equal-tempered. This
> means that the difference in frequency (fundamental oscillations)
> between any two half-steps is exactly the same for all the
> half-steps.
> Yes? No?
Yes. The ratio between adjacent frequencies is the twelfth root of
two, or about 1.0595. I don't know what well-tempered or mean-tone or
any of the others are, exactly, but whatever they are, they don't have
uniform half-steps.
> The harmonics may or may not be the same.
Inharmonicity, the error that results from the finite thickness and
stiffness of real physical strings, causes the overtones to deviate
from their theoretical ideals. Upper partials are a bit sharper than
they "should" be. This problem exists regardless of the temperment to
which the fundamentals are tuned. It is often compensated for by
"stretching" the scale; tuning the low notes a mite flat and the high
ones a mite sharp, so that the high partials of the low notes will be
in tune with the low partials of the high notes.
What any of this has to do with perfect pitch escapes me.
--
Philip Delaquess | Ecx malgranda muso,
Software Development | Ne estas sen anuso.
Genetics Computer Group |
dela...@gcg.com | [wise old Esperanto proverb]
A440A
Ernie writes;
>The overwhelming majority of pianos today are >equal-tempered. This
>means that the difference in frequency >(fundamental oscillations)
>between any two half-steps is exactly the same for >all the half-steps.
sorta. The difference in frequency increases between each half step as
you ascend the scale. This is because the notes have more and more Hz as
you go up and the difference between notes is represented by succesively
higher numbers. any note can be used to find the next note in equal
temperament by multiplying it's frequency by the 12th root of 2. this
gives the frequency of the next higher note.
For measurement purposes, there are 100 cents between each
half-step, but the value of a cent, in terms of frequency, varies as you
go up the scale.
Equal tempering has no tonal center, and represents a mathematical
arrangement of the notes in an octave. Well tempering provided for some
key signatures to be more harmonically organized than others. This
provides for a basis from which the concept of the "Character of the Keys"
arose, i.e., that the more accidentals there were in the signature, the
more dissonance there was in the root tonic thirds of that signature.
The Character of the keys is not, IMHO, transferable to the other
orchestral instruments, but rather, is a property of well tempered
keyboards.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashv
Ed Foote
nashville
Oliver Klee
: Can you stand another naive question on this subject? All the
: terminology that has been thrown around has me confused. Please
: tell me if this is correct:
: The overwhelming majority of pianos today are equal-tempered. This
: means that the difference in frequency (fundamental oscillations)
: between any two half-steps is exactly the same for all the half-steps.
: yes? no?
Yes!
(The human ear doesn't in every case think the same, but *physically*
that's exactly the thing.)
Oliver
kl...@athene.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Christine Purvis
Fritz Owens <fo...@www.gnofn.org> writes:
> > >That's my $0.02.
>
> >Chris N
If I'm playing in the Key of C and press the
> transposition button to move up a half step, I immediately start "seeing"
> and hearing the notes in the Key of D flat. As this goes on, playing the
> notes in the Key of C distracts me so bad that I cannot continue. My
> hands keep trying to play the notes in the Key of D flat and everything
> gets twisted up. Anyone ever experience this?
>
Hi, Fritz!
Here's my 1.48 (Canadian) cents worth (after the U.S. exchange rate):
I find that the electronic tone/overtone combination is different
enough from the "piano" sound that I have internalized over
the years that I am able to ignore the discomfort of playing
in one key and hearing another. Also, I have found that the
more often you play in this manner, the easier it becomes to
cope with it. I've also adjusted to playing guitar chords
with a capo, wherein you form the chord of, for example, D major,
put the capo on the first fret, and it comes out as E-flat
major. After the initial discomfort, it's okay.
When you think of clarinetist and others always playing in the wrong
key (music written in one key, and coming out at concert pitch),
you have to reason that there must be some of them with perfect
pitch who have to overcome the discomfort of hearing the wrong key
all the time.
As to advantages of having perfect pitch, or some variation of
it, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this one: teaching is
a lot easier when you know *for sure* whether the student has
hit the right or wrong note. If a B-flat is written on the score,
and I hear the student play an A-flat, there's absolutely no
problem in identifying the mistake -- even if I can't see their
fingers, or I don't know the piece really well, or it's full of
20th-century harmonies that could sound wrong even when they're
played correctly! ;-) .
When I had been teaching for a couple of years, another pianist
remarked to me that she would find teaching difficult because
she was never very good at ear-training, and didn't trust herself
to be able to pick out students' mistakes accurately. It wasn't
until that moment that I realized that perfect pitch was a bit
of an advantage in teaching.
Christine Purvis
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Enjoying the music at the summer festival capital of N. America.
Shirley
Hi, all--
I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I hope I'm not too far
off topic.
I have perfect pitch. Perfect in half-steps, that is. When I was a kid, my
dad used to play "bump bah-dee-ah-dah bump____" on the piano in order to
call me down for dinner. That last bump was like a dangling dominant 7th
chord to me. I couldn't stand it and *had* to finish it, to resolve it.
Anyway, the exercise perfected the talent of perfect pitch.
In college, as a part of the music education curriculum, I had to take a
brass course. One of the instruments I needed to learn to function on was
the trumpet. I understood then and there why I'm a pianist!!!! Anyway,
the transposition was AWFUL for me! When I see a third-line B, I want it
to SOUND like a third-line B!!! The second half of the semester I played
the trombone. I coulda drawn the French Horn (in F) just as easily!!!!
Phew!
And the woodwinds class was just as bad, with the Clarinet and
Saxophone!!!! Flute, I could deal with....just couldn't get the embouchure
together.
I cannot transpose on sight. Capos and transposing instruments drive me
absolutely BANANAS! Transposition-on-sight is *not* one of my talents.
But like anything else, it can be learned. :)
Shirley
jeanette
Well, I have perfect pitch. My mom insisted that I didn't have
perfect pitch, but "relative pitch". However, I CAN sing the correct
pitches for notes, etc. What I probably don't have is Absolute
Perfect Pitch, where the person can really tell if the note is sharp
or flat. However, that may have to do with me playing with a tuned
instrument -- piano. I can normally identify notes without difficulty
on most instruments. The only piece which has bothered me for the
last 15 years (?) are the opening trumpet passage in the TV show,
CHiPs.
Yes, I do hear notes in colour. A minor is my "favourite" chord. It
sounds Red to me -- like being home. C is a neutral sound, while E is
happy. (you have to kinda smile to SING the letter E)
I used to play the trombone, and the clarinet. My arm is too short to
play 7th position on the trombone (kept throwing the darn slide off
when I tried); and the concert B-flat concept for the clarinet drove
me nuts. I'll stick to the piano, thank you.
Does anyone listen to pitch and say "that was xxx Mhz"? I think I've
gotten a few psychologists interested in doing a study someday about
perfect pitch -- how to we hear it, translate it, and perceive it?
Transposition on keyboards -- are a pain if the keyboard does it
automatically. I have to Ignore what I hear to continue. However, I
have the tendency of playing pieces in the wrong key because I
apparently transpose at the keyboard so easily, I like putting the
things I play in an easier singing key.
Does anyone remember at what age they discovered that they have
perfect pitch? My mom tells me that I started piano because she
caught me playing the piano at age 3 and a half -- the piece she had
just been teaching a student -- correctly by ear. One of my students,
age 4, has perfect pitch -- or at least, can correctly identify notes
played at the keyboard. She was having a little difficulty
identifying the black keys, primarily because she wasn't quite clear
on their names quite yet. (she could find them and play them)
Jeanette
Aloysia
jeanette wrote:
>
> Yes, I do hear notes in colour. A minor is my "favourite" chord. It
> sounds Red to me -- like being home. C is a neutral sound, while E is
> happy. (you have to kinda smile to SING the letter E)
>
> I used to play the trombone, and the clarinet. My arm is too short to
> play 7th position on the trombone (kept throwing the darn slide off
> when I tried); and the concert B-flat concept for the clarinet drove
> me nuts. I'll stick to the piano, thank you.
>
That latter paragraph seems right. I'm just a newcomer to this
newsgroup, so I hope I'm not replying to an old and dying thread!
I'm 13 and I play piano _and_ clarinet. I am quite accustomed to
the B-flat thing. I guess when it comes to harder theory I'll start
messing up with it.
Smile!!
Aloysia
--
"Death is...the ultimate purpose of life and therefore,
during the last few years, I have acquainted myself so
thoroughly with this truest and best friend of man, that his
image has not only ceased to frighten me but has become a
source of great comfort. And I can only thank God for having
afford me the opportunity...to see death the key to true
happiness"
- W.A. Mozart Apr. 4 1787
Kristin
I am wondering if I am unusual. Right after I wake up in the morning, you can
ask me to sing any note, and I am practically always able to do it. If you
play a note on the piano, I can identify it with 99% accuracy. However, after
I listen to music for awhile, I tend to lose this ability. After listening to
the radio for an hour or two, you can FORGET it! I also tend to go flat while
singing acapella without realizing that I am doing it even though it drives me
CRAZY when I hear other people do the very same thing. Am I weird???
Kristin
John DeCicco
jean...@direct.ca (jeanette) wrote:
>Well, I have perfect pitch. My mom insisted that I didn't have
>perfect pitch, but "relative pitch". However, I CAN sing the correct
>pitches for notes, etc. What I probably don't have is Absolute
>Perfect Pitch, where the person can really tell if the note is sharp
>or flat. However, that may have to do with me playing with a tuned
>instrument -- piano. I can normally identify notes without difficulty
>on most instruments. The only piece which has bothered me for the
>last 15 years (?) are the opening trumpet passage in the TV show,
>CHiPs.
>Yes, I do hear notes in colour. A minor is my "favourite" chord. It
>sounds Red to me -- like being home. C is a neutral sound, while E is
>happy. (you have to kinda smile to SING the letter E)
>I used to play the trombone, and the clarinet. My arm is too short to
>play 7th position on the trombone (kept throwing the darn slide off
>when I tried); and the concert B-flat concept for the clarinet drove
>me nuts. I'll stick to the piano, thank you.
>Does anyone listen to pitch and say "that was xxx Mhz"? I think I've
>gotten a few psychologists interested in doing a study someday about
>perfect pitch -- how to we hear it, translate it, and perceive it?
>Transposition on keyboards -- are a pain if the keyboard does it
>automatically. I have to Ignore what I hear to continue. However, I
>have the tendency of playing pieces in the wrong key because I
>apparently transpose at the keyboard so easily, I like putting the
>things I play in an easier singing key.
>Does anyone remember at what age they discovered that they have
>perfect pitch? My mom tells me that I started piano because she
>caught me playing the piano at age 3 and a half -- the piece she had
>just been teaching a student -- correctly by ear.
Hello Jeannette,
I too was about 3 or 4 years old. My older sister was listening to
the song "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" by the Shirelles on the radio. I
had a small Emenee organ, and started playing the melody, much to my
mother's horror, er, surprise. Of course at that age, one thinks
"doesn't everyone do this?"
During later junior high and high school years, I would put on the
headphones and play along with songs on the radio. Still do
occassionally.
John
Aloysia
I'm not even close to having perfect pitch! I had always thought
how nice it would be to have perfect pitch, but after some of those
comments, maybe perfect pitch isn't such a perfect thing!
I also have a question. People say that W.A. Mozart had perfect
pitch. My piano teacher told me that *pitches* then were all a little
higher than *pitches* now. Is that true? Then if all the perfectly
pitched people then were to live now, maybe they wouldn't have perfect
pitch? Or would they just get used to it and have perfect pitch anyway?
(confused yet?)
:-) Aloysia
Adam Summers
Aloysia (us...@host.edu) wrote:
[original post deleted]
: I'm not even close to having perfect pitch! I had always thought
: how nice it would be to have perfect pitch, but after some of those
: comments, maybe perfect pitch isn't such a perfect thing!
: I also have a question. People say that W.A. Mozart had perfect
: pitch.
A story goes that he could tell if a violin was an eith of a tone
out of tune. Of course this could just be rumour.
: My piano teacher told me that *pitches* then were all a little
: higher than *pitches* now. Is that true?
Yes. In a sense - pitch was less standardised than it is today.
This could be because there was no way to compare two organs from
different towns to make sure they were the same pitch.
Most people tune to A440 these days, though (for example)
the concert hall at the conservatorium where I study has its'
keybooard instruments tuned to A442. I cant hear the difference.
: Then if all the perfectly
: pitched people then were to live now, maybe they wouldn't have perfect
: pitch? Or would they just get used to it and have perfect pitch anyway?
: (confused yet?)
Perfect pitch isn't such a magical, absolute thing. Its no "Holy Grail",
though sometimes it is a handy thing to have --- but a vary strong
relative pitch is much better (one of the reasons being that through
relative pitch you could obtain a very strong harmonic sense as well).
I have a friend who can tell the difference of pitchings. And, just for
the record - he learnt how to do it.
This is not intended to open up a discussion of Perfect Pitch again.
These opinions are my own -- I dont care if you disagree with them -
I am not in the mood for nit-picking - and I am sick of having at
least one perfect pitch thread running at any one time.
[Sorry to sound cantankerous -- Im tired!]
Adam
---
asum...@cs.newcastle.edu.au
Glenn Mandelkern
In article <4tosfj$k...@thrush.sover.net>,
John DeCicco <jdec...@sover.net> wrote:
>jean...@direct.ca (jeanette) wrote:
>
>>Does anyone remember at what age they discovered that they have
>>perfect pitch? My mom tells me that I started piano because she
>>caught me playing the piano at age 3 and a half -- the piece she had
>>just been teaching a student -- correctly by ear.
>
>Hello Jeannette,
>
>I too was about 3 or 4 years old. My older sister was listening to
>the song "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" by the Shirelles on the radio. I
>had a small Emenee organ, and started playing the melody, much to my
>mother's horror, er, surprise. Of course at that age, one thinks
>"doesn't everyone do this?"
>
>During later junior high and high school years, I would put on the
>headphones and play along with songs on the radio. Still do
>occassionally.
>
I discovered I had perfect pitch after learning scales. I noticed
that for every song on the radio I could name the corresponding scale.
This was only a week after I was assigned some scales to learned.
I started lessons at age 12. I was amazed by this since I would name
song title and artist and proudly associate that with my studies.
For example, when practicing the Cm scale , I would say I was doing
just like Anita Ward was doing for "Ring My Bell", also in Cm.
So after I was introduced to scales, the next week I played all the
scales for my teacher, telling her that I wanted to know each and every
scale to be able to name at least one song and artist who I felt was
inspired by a scale. I also noted a lot of difference between the
feelings of the different keys so I wanted to get to know how all the
scales in the book felt. Because of this I could never understand why
so many students dreaded scales. I remember some scales were close to
impossible to come up with a match (I distinctly remember struggling
to find some, such as "YMCA" in F#.)
My teacher who was a few decades older than me did not know these
songs and artists I referenced, but she then explained perfect pitch
to me. She did forewarn me to be careful to not become overly dependent
on it since principles of harmonization and resolution would be best
understood using relative pitch. So when we did ear training, she would
play a perfect fifth and ask me to name the interval. When I first said
something like, "Oh that's G and D, so that's a perfect fifth", she would
say not to do that; instead she said to focus on the characteristics of
the sound.
I would not be surprised if many people actually have perfect pitch
but do not have the musical training to identify it. I have observed
how some people always sing a given song (e.g., "Happy Birthday") in
the same key who are not musicians. (I cite "Happy Birthday" since it
always cracks me up how not everyone starts on the same note, but then
a predominant person carries the tune; so I'm always curious as to
what key it will be sung in. If I'm chosen to lead, I do it in A-flat
since it's most comfortable for me.)
Similar to John, I have played along with several songs on the radio.
It helps by saving money in not having to buy a lot of sheet music.
I remember in junior high and senior high as well when in bands,
some of my classmates would fret (no pun intended) in despair when
they could not find the sheet music to a given song. Many times I'd
ask them to just give me 3 to 5 minutes so I could write out a chart
and then we could proceed. I also remember how some of them liked
telling me to turn around, then they'd play a guitar chord for me to name.
It would be doubly funny when they'd put together some chord they did
not know the name for, e.g., Am7b5--they'd be impressed with what seemed
to be a long and detailed name.
(Incidentally, I despise when looking for sheet music and the song
is transposed to a different key, e.g., a song recorded in B-flat is
transposed to C, since B-flat is perceived to be a "difficult" key.
Or if it has "too many flats" like Ebm or Abm, it is transposed
up a half step. But sometimes they say, "Originally recorded in [key]."
Examples of this are "Mad About You" by Sting and "Easy as it Seems" by KISS.)
Macedon
In article <4tsdm7$e...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, c932...@lily.newcastle.edu.au
(Adam Summers) says:
>Aloysia (us...@host.edu) wrote:
>: Then if all the perfectly
>: pitched people then were to live now, maybe they wouldn't have perfect
>: pitch? Or would they just get used to it and have perfect pitch anyway?
>: (confused yet?)
>Perfect pitch isn't such a magical, absolute thing. Its no "Holy Grail",
>though sometimes it is a handy thing to have --- but a vary strong
>relative pitch is much better (one of the reasons being that through
>relative pitch you could obtain a very strong harmonic sense as well).
Precisely. Also perfect pitch in what scale? Diatonic? Chromatic?
Undevigenti? "Perfect pitch" in Western classical ain't 'perfect' for
Indian classical, or old Persian, or ancient Greek.... Musical scale
and what sounds "in tune" is a socio-cultural phenomena. Don't believe
me? Just take a look at what the Greeks thought of Persian music. ;>
\ | / | Macedon
-->*<-- | Department of History
/ | \ | Penn State University
| jr...@psuvm.psu.edu
Shirley
Macedon <JR...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
Heeheehee....my perfect pitch is "well-tempered". :) I can hear in
half-steps (since I'm a pianist) but can't always hear when a choir is
gradually sliding flat.
--Shirley