Damp Chaser questions
PLM
instructions, I leave the piano lid fully closed and the fallboard down. He
told me the Damp Chaser should keep the instrument at 48% RH.
I have a couple of digital (Radio Shack) thermometer/humidistats, which I
have tested against some professional equipment at work. I believe them to
be accurate to within about 2% of actual RH, and they generally agree with
each other exactly - I've never seen them register more than 1% apart when
kept together for more than a minute.
When I leave one outside the piano and one inside the piano, they rarely
differ by more than 3% upon opening the piano to examine the humidity
reading inside the instrument.
In other words, if it's 58% humidity in the piano room, the unit inside the
piano will read no lower than 54% to 55%, no matter how long the piano has
been closed. This appears to be true through a range of humidities that I
have measured so far from the high 40's to the high 60's.
Since the humidity range inside the instrument is varying about as much as
the humidity range outside of the instrument, I've become very skeptical
that there is really any benefit to this system, and wonder if the Damp
Chaser is working properly. I assumed it would keep the piano's internal
humidity around the recommended 48% range, but then again, since the two
Damp Chaser rods are both installed *below* the piano, I really can't see
how they can control the humidity inside the instrument.
The installation has only the dehumidifier rods. Two different techs in my
area have told me they don't recommend the humidifier component, because in
our climate the problem is with high humidity, not low. I am skeptical of
this advice, since I have seen my piano room's humidity fall below 30% on
rare occasions when my room humidifier has been turned off. In the hot
months, humidity can remain above 60% for long periods, and even remain in
the 80% range for days at a time. In any case, I do humidify the piano room
in the winter using a room humidifier, and it generally keeps the area
around the piano in the 40% to 45% humidity range. I would use the room
humidifier even if the Damp Chaser humidifier was installed, since I believe
keeping the house above 40% RH is desirable for health reasons.
Any advice would be appreciated - is there a way to change the settings on
the unit's humidistat? Is there a way to tell if the units are running?
The Damp Chaser rods never feel warm to the touch as far as I can tell.
Gary Rimar
Gary (that would explain it ;-) Rimar
"PLM" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:vX%q7.12316$kf1.6...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
PLM
and this time noticed that they were very warm (hot) to the touch, so I
guess it's working. I'm still not measuring a significant drop in humidity
inside the piano itself. It was at 61% about an hour ago - external
humidity about 65% in the house today.
I suspect the Damp Chaser system is only able to create a stable humidity
within millimeters of the soundboard, and that the system is simply not
designed to significantly affect the general humidity more than a couple of
inches away from it. I still wonder if it doesn't possibly create
conditions where the humidity below the soundboard (and near the
dehumidifier rods) is low, but the humidity above the soundboard is not that
different from the ambient room humidity. I suppose a rod could be mounted
inside the case, but it seems like that would present serious challenges for
running the cord without modifications to the piano case.
"Gary Rimar" <pian...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:vL8r7.2950$xK3.1...@e420r-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Rick Clark
air above the soundboard, because that is not where the humidistat
sensor is, nor is it really the point of the system. The point of the
rod and humidistat under the board in a grand is to stabilize the
moisture content of the wood, not the air above the soundboard. The
effectiveness of the system is demonstrated in tuning stability. That
is the real test. However, there is some benefit inside the case above
from the convection currents generated by the gently warmed
soundboard. This will have some rust-protective effect to the strings.
Many people attempt to "test" their Dampp-Chasers by placing humidity
gauges and second-guessing the system. But this is based on a basic
misunderstanding of principles, and is a fruitless exercise. The
Dampp-Chaser company publishes info trying to dissuade people from
falling into this trap, as you seem to have done.
If you live in an area which is so humid there is a risk of rust on
the strings, an effective preventative is a proper piano string cover
with a low wattage (15 watts) Dampp-Chaser rod lashed to a plate strut
(which will be covered by the string cover. This gives an extra
measure of protection over keeping the lid closed. And in fact, with
this you could leave the lid open if desired.
A string cover alone is a pretty effective item, but an additional rod
is cheap and makes the whole thing foolproof even in nasty humidity
conditions. It is important to note that a proper string cover *must*
be made of wool. Wool has certain qualities as pertains to moisture
that make it suitable to the purpose, whereas other fabrics do not.
Unfortunately Dampp-Chaser does not involve itself with string covers.
They has to be acquired separately. They ought to sell them, because
they are very effective. They have the added major benefit of keeping
dust out of the works, too. Not to mention helping to keep fingers off
strings, which can cause nasty corrosion. I have been installing D.C.
systems combined with string covers in nasty humid coastal Florida for
quite a long time now, and I can tell you it's extremely effective.
However, I don't know your climate specifically or if it's humid
enough to justify extra measures. It could be keeping the lid closed
with the D.C. system is enough to prevent rust.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Cc88m
instrument, making full use of heat transport properties. As you implied, the
humidity is controlled by laminar flow of air; if the humidity of laminar air
is correct, it doesn't matter how thin that layer is; it doesn't make any
difference whether it is 1mm or the entire room, because that's all the piano
"sees". That is why the DC is so efficient and can do its job at such low
wattage. Warm air rises slowly, creating the laminar flow.
C. C. Chang
Gary Lambert
a Dampp-Chaser system installed in my vertical piano. Although the
placement of the equipment is different, the operation should be
the same.
Information at the Dampp-Chaser website suggests that the dehumidifier
rods should become "hot" when the humidity is high. If they always feel
cool, nothing is happening and I would suspect that the unit is not
operating properly.
I share your concerns about the system's effectiveness. It is clearly a
compromise that is not a full substitute for controlling the humidity
in the room. As an engineer, I appreciate your attempts to verify the
operation of the system. Please keep me informed of your progress.
Mine is scheduled to be installed in late October. I would enjoy
comparing notes after it is up and running.
Gary Lambert
gary.l...@verizon.com
In article <vX%q7.12316$kf1.6...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "PLM"
Tom Shaw
calling it an upright) and I think it works very well in it since the air
around the device can circulate by convection (whenever the rods are on)
thruout the whole inside of the piano. However I haven't looked to see if
the strings are getting rusty.
TS
"Gary Lambert" <glam...@gte.com> wrote in message
news:glambert-240...@132.197.92.99...
Garrett
PLM wrote:
> The installation has only the dehumidifier rods. Two different techs in my
> area have told me they don't recommend the humidifier component, because in
> our climate the problem is with high humidity, not low.
I am curious what area /country you live in ?
Garrett
Jazz Performance
Professional Musician / Music Educator
Jazz & Classical Music Education
Web: http://www.magma.ca/~garrett
Well, I think that music,
being an expression of the human heart,
or of the human being itself,
does express just what is happening.
I feel it expresses the whole thing
the whole of human experience at the
particular time that it is being expressed.
John Coltrane
Garrett
Cc88m wrote:
Hmmmm,,,,, could someone explain this "laminar flow" a little more, not sure I
understand it.
thanks
Christof Pflumm
> Cc88m wrote:
>
> > As I understand it from a scientist's point of view, the DC is a truly clever
> > instrument, making full use of heat transport properties. As you implied, the
> > humidity is controlled by laminar flow of air; if the humidity of laminar air
> > is correct, it doesn't matter how thin that layer is; it doesn't make any
> > difference whether it is 1mm or the entire room, because that's all the piano
> > "sees". That is why the DC is so efficient and can do its job at such low
> > wattage. Warm air rises slowly, creating the laminar flow.
> > C. C. Chang
>
> Hmmmm,,,,, could someone explain this "laminar flow" a little more, not sure I
> understand it.
Laminar flow, as opposed to turbulent flow, means a flow where the
fluid or gas moves in one direction. In turbulent flow, you have
vortices etc. Laminar flow normally only occurs for low flow
velocities. The interesting thing in this context is that in laminar
flow, the fluid or gas doesn't mix well, so that only a thin air layer
adjacent to the wood is important. I don't know if that's really the
case with a damp chaser in a piano, but it sounds reasonable.
Bye,
Christof
PLM
skeptical of the soundness of the two techs' advice not to install the
humidifier component in this climate. I have monitored my home's humidity
since 1998, when I first bought the piano, and have seen the natural
humidity in the house as high as 90% and as low a the high 20's. This
humidity range seems to me to more than justify the full Dampp-Chaser
treatment. Neither tech even stocks the humidifier component, and would
have to order it. I may ask my current tech to go ahead and order the
necessary parts, since the dry season is approaching...
"Garrett" <gar...@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:3BAFD145...@magma.ca...
Roger Wheelock
Dampp-Chaser Corp. Bob Mair, the CEO of Dampp-Chaser, has provided the
following.
"Rick Clark and Christof Pflumm have done an excellent job providing a
description of the functioning of the Dampp-Chaser Climate Control System. I
would add only the following comments:
The full system, meaning the humidifier as well as the dehumidifier, makes its
own environment under the sound board of a grand piano or within the cavity of
an upright piano. Generally the environment is dependent upon itself; i.e. the
humidistat is telling the humidifier and the dehumidifier what to do. It's
affected by what is happening around the piano to a degree but is not dependent
on it. We routinely see, during our experimentation, dehumidifiers on when the
ambient relative humidity is 25%. The same holds true for the upper levels;
i.e. the humidifier being on at ambient relative humidity levels of 65%. The
humidistat is cycling the humidifier and the dehumidifiers to maintain an
average relative humidity of 42-48%. The exact point is determined by the
calibration of the particular humidistat.
Only if you have both components of the system, the humidifier and the
dehumidifier, will you truly control the environment and thus produce the most
stable moisture content. I would urge that you have your current technician
put in the humidifier portion of the system.
An undercover for grand pianos is now available. This is attached to the
underside of the rim and prevents normal room air currents from interfering
with the environment generated by the Climate Control System. It is made from
speaker cloth and does not change the tone or the sound volume."
If anyone has further questions I would be happy to answer them. I can be
reached at ro...@dampp-chaser.com
Thanks,
Roger
"PLM" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
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> My tech installed a Damp Chaser system on my Yamaha C2 grand. Following his
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