Kawai RX-3 vs. Boston GP-178
Paul Leventis (at home)
Any opinions? It's tricky for me to compare the two since the dealers are
very far apart. I've yet to play them on the same day.
That said, I find the Kawai RX-3 has finer control of ppp to pp to p, but is
a little lacking when it comes to f/ff. This partially a voicing issue, but
in general I find the dynamic range to be a little less than the Boston.
The action has been a little less consistent, but I think was more of a
regulation issue than anything else.
The Boston's are nice, but a fair bit pricier (nearly 10K Canadian). I do
like that I can trade up to a Steinway within ten years with full trade in,
but my guess is this comes at the expense of negotiation room on the next
piano (which there is little on a Steinway).
So right now I'm leaning more towards the Kawai, on the basis that the
difference is small for the price difference. Any one else's opinions on
the subject would be greatly appreciated!
And on a side note, of all the top pianos I've played, I'm torn between the
Bosendorfer and the Shigeru Kawai -- I sometimes dream of one, sometimes the
other, but will never be able to afford either! At least the Steinways are
within hoping/dreaming distance!
- Paul
Glenn Grafton
<paulleve...@yahoo.ca> said:
>
> Any opinions? It's tricky for me to compare the two since the dealers are
> very far apart. I've yet to play them on the same day.
I'd go with the Kawai RX-3. Although the Boston pianos are different in
many ways than the Kawai's are, both are made in the same factory on
the same assembly line, and share many similarities, despite what you
may hear. You'd be happy with either one, but will pay more for the
Boston.
>
> That said, I find the Kawai RX-3 has finer control of ppp to pp to p, but is
> a little lacking when it comes to f/ff. This partially a voicing issue, but
> in general I find the dynamic range to be a little less than the Boston.
> The action has been a little less consistent, but I think was more of a
> regulation issue than anything else.
What that probably means is that the Kawai is voiced somewhat mellower
than the Boston, which would give you more controlled "ppp" to "pp".
The RX-3 could be voiced somewhat brighter and would give you what you
want.
The other issue is the differences between the actions. Kawai RX grand
actions now use carbon fiber for the action parts as opposed to ABS
with carbon fiber jacks. There's a lot of negative stuff said about
Kawai actions by sales people who try to scare people.
For an interesting read take a look at:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.07/armstrong.html
and compare the material mentioned here:
http://www.kawaius.com/reason11.htm
Wired Magazine talks about the components in Lance Armstrong's bicycle,
helmet etc. Do a search on the page for "carbon" and you'll read 2
places where they mention carbon fiber being used: in his helmet for
the sub fram and this year for the entire wheels ? both the rims AND
the hubs.
You may wonder what in the world this has to do with pianos. We'll
first off, these carbon fiber wheels are light and responsive. Same
thing you want in an action.
> Rotating weight has a greater impact than static weight because a rider
> must move it with every revolution. This year, Bontrager used carbon
> fiber in the hub, which, in addition to the carbon fiber rims
> introduced last year, keeps the weight of both wheels to 42.32 ounces.
>
> The Boston's are nice, but a fair bit pricier (nearly 10K Canadian). I do
> like that I can trade up to a Steinway within ten years with full trade in,
> but my guess is this comes at the expense of negotiation room on the next
> piano (which there is little on a Steinway).
Boston Pianos often command a higher gross profit due to the limited
distribution by a smaller group of dealers. There's also the "Steinway
aura" that comes into the picture.
As far as full trade in value goes, what you'll find with that is that
the full value is given in trade on a Steinway at list price. As time
goes and piano prices appreciate the deal gets better for the dealer.
> So right now I'm leaning more towards the Kawai, on the basis that the
> difference is small for the price difference. Any one else's opinions on
> the subject would be greatly appreciated!
> - Paul
--
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
1-877-GRAFTON (877-472-3866)
1081 County Line Rd. Souderton PA 18964
gl...@nospamgraftonpiano.com (remove "nospam" to reply)
http://www.graftonpiano.com/
Paul Leventis (at home)
two -- which is tricky since the two shops are 45 minutes apart -- but I'm
leaning towards the RX-3 (or maybe an RX-5).
The whole plastic parts business doesn't worry me one bit. They are all
structural pieces and have nothing to do with the sound. I'm an engineer
and believe in progress!
- Paul
jazzberry
Hello,
Generally speaking, many people (not everyone)find that they prefer
the tone of the Boston, to some degree, over Kawai in the six foot
size range. However, they also find that the price premium many
Steinway dealers want for the Boston is too high. I solved the
problem by moving up to the Boston GP-193 (6'4") where the dealer was
more willing to negotiate. They gave me an excellent price, rather
than let me walk out the door and head for the Kawai shop. In my
opinion I got a much better piano for only slightly more money. My
point here is that I don't think the Boston GP-178 is the right piano
to compare to the RX-3 or RX-5. Kawai is the winner here barring an
exceptionally priced GP-178. But if you have a little extra in your
budget and have a real preference for Boston, you can avoid possible
buyer's remorse and be much happier long term, negotiating a good deal
on the GP-193.
Good Luck!
jazzberry
Hello,
Paul Leventis (at home)
Before negotiations, the GP-178 is ~$35K, the GP-193 is ~$44K, the RX-3 is
~$29K, and RX-5 is $35K (all prices canadian). And my sense is the Kawai
dealers are much more likely to drop the price (seem very willing/hungry for
sale). While I agree the GP-193 would be nice to have, it is certainly a
high difference to overcome.
- Paul
Glenn Grafton
<paulleve...@yahoo.ca> said:
> Hi,
>
> Before negotiations, the GP-178 is ~$35K, the GP-193 is ~$44K, the RX-3 is
> ~$29K, and RX-5 is $35K (all prices canadian). And my sense is the Kawai
> dealers are much more likely to drop the price (seem very willing/hungry for
> sale). While I agree the GP-193 would be nice to have, it is certainly a
> high difference to overcome.
>
> - Paul
I have found that in the past the whole issue of Boston vs. Kawai
choice gets somewhat confusing. Often times the pricing on the two
makes is out of kilter from what they should be. The wholesale cost to
the dealers on both brands is actually almost identical. In practice
the tagged and selling prices of the Boston pianos is higher for two
reasons:
1. Limited distribution of Boston pianos.
The Boston dealers know that they are the "only game in town" so they
often feel they can command a higher price as they don't have to worry
about being "shopped" and the customer finding a lower price.
2. The Steinway "Mystique"
There is a certain aura that comes into play when the salesman that 3
minutes ago was showing a Steinway grand takes the customer over to the
"Steinway designed" Boston pianos. Even thought the Boston pianos are
made in the Kawai factory on the same production line and share many
similar construction components.
The same thing would happen if Mercedes sold a line of cars that was
actually made by Subaru or another Japanese car company. Say for
example Subaru made a car for Mercedes; Mercedes had somem input into
their version, perhaps a different set of shocks, springs, dash etc.,
but the car used the same chasis, engine and transmission. The 2nd tier
Mercedes line of cars, if they offered one, would be perceived to have
a greater value than the same car that bore the manufacturerers name.
Thas is often times one of the factors that happens with Boston pianos.
Perception and image is often times one of the key things when a person
sits down at a piano.
To put some facts behind my view, here's the specs. and prices from the
Ancott Associates Acoustic Piano Directory for Spring/Summer 2004. Note
that these prices are not Steinway's suggested prices nor are they
Kawai's suggested retail prices. These prices are arrived at by taking
the manufacturerers wholesale cost and applying a typical "tag" price
mark up.
The value in seeing these is that you can see where the two piano makes
stack up in terms of if they were to have the exact same mark up. Of
course in practice they won't. The point here is for the prospective
piano buyer to make an informed decision.
Here's the sizes and Ancott Prices of the models discussed (satin ebony
in US Dollars):
Boston Ancott Tagged Kawai Ancott Tagged
GP-178 5'10" $22780 $26789 RX2 5'10" $226902
GP-193 6'4" $28960 $33677 RX3 6'1" $29390 $22189
RX5 6'6" $32790 $26778
The above tagged prices were converted from Canadian dollars to US from
http://www.xe.com/ucc/. I thought it would be helpful to at least see
them in the same currency. Naturally there are other factors that come
into play as these are offered in Canada. I would think that any
financial differences would affect both brands.
jazzberry
It appears that the pricing gap between the GP-178 and the GP-193 has
increased significantly since I bought my piano. So I can understand
if moving up is out of the question. However, the pricing info.
essentially confirms that the Steinway dealer has room to negotiate.
Use this information and see what happens on a GP-178. People don't
walk in every day ready to spend over $20,000 for a piano. A smart
dealer wants to put that money in HIS pocket. Of course timing and a
willingness to stick to your guns is critical. If the dealer only has
one GP-178 in his store expect tough negotiations. If he has several
your chances will improve. The dealer needs to understand that you
know he has room to deal and if he's not willing to work with you the
other guy will. In that sense it's a lot like haggling over a car. If
you have a real preference for the Boston put yourself through the
hassel of negotiating and make every effort to get the piano you feel
most strongly about. I must say that I think the RX-2 and GP-178 are
both fine. However, I believe the GP-193 is probably the best
Boston and would generally be prefered over the RX-3 or RX-5 by most
folks. Of course there are always exceptions. The good news is that
you can't really make a bad decision with either brand as long as you
work the pricing issue properly.
Again, good luck!
Glenn Grafton <gl...@nospamgraftonpiano.com> wrote in message news:<2004082313564616807%glenn@nospamgraftonpianocom>...
Raj V
motorcycle to furniture and it works pretty darned well. FAX your
bottom-line offer to the salesman, with the assurance that you are a serious
buyer and if he is a serious seller, to contact you. The theory is the
salesperson is more likely to take an offer on paper more seriously than
verbal repartee. Has worked for me almost every time.
Good Luck,
Raj
Paul Leventis (at home)
Thank you both for your feedback. I've also looked up the "constant mark up"
prices in multiple places and have found them to be completely off of what
I've observed in store.
I'll think I'll go negotiate hard with the Boston dealer on the GP-193 and
see what I can get out of them; it will be easier for me than usual because
it really is about price at this point and I am willing to walk out of the
store and get myself a Kawai! Then I'll go do the same with the Kawai
dealer on the RX-3 (actually, two Kawai dealers). And then I can decide
whether the extra $xK (5? 10?) is worth it to me or not...
I wish I had $100K sitting around; then I'd just go get myself the
Bosendorfer I've always wanted and be done with it :-)
- Paul
"jazzberry" <rr4...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b452eb0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
Glenn
to you?
Answer those then you will buy the Kawai.
Steinway built Boston to sell to people that couldnt afford to buy
Steinways. They throw the trade up bs out there to take people off the
market. Currently, Kawai is working on disolving the relationship b/c
Steinway salesmen, get pissed off and build all kinds of bs into the
Bostoon name, folks like you find out about the relationship and then
get pissed at Kawai also, Currently, Kawai is the only manufacturer in
the world working on improvments in piano technology. If their
pocketbook holds out, they will be copied as most trend setters are..
My name is Glenn I sell Pianos
rr4...@aol.com (jazzberry) wrote in message news:<b452eb0b.04082...@posting.google.com>...
Glenn
there are inaccuracies in it. It is using last years wholesales.
Yamaha, Boston, Kawai & Chas Walters and others have increased their
prices on most units. This is causing problems for many of us sales
slimers, as it is bad enough to have to rebutt lies and build
credibility*, let alone have folks believe a flawed source.
Thanks!
* A saleman with credibility = there are wpmd's!!!!!!
rr4...@aol.com (jazzberry) wrote in message news:<b452eb0b.04082...@posting.google.com>...
franck
signature.
If your comments sound smart enough then people will be convinced.
If you assume Kawai is the only piano maker to make improvements in piano
manufacturing, how do you explain that Yamaha keyboards are more sensitive
and longlife than Kawai's ?
Maybe the reason why Kawai makes good investments in technology is that they
are a way behind Yamaha and Steinway...
Do you mean you are a Kawai piano seller???
"Glenn" <san...@juno.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:fab3840e.04082...@posting.google.com...
Glenn Grafton
the Spring /summer edition came out I checked the companies we deal
with and found it to be right on. Kawai had a price increase March 2004
and those changes are reflected in it. Certainly there could be a
change in pricing by one manufacturer made after the edition is
published. It is published twice a year however so it is usually fairly
current. I just got notice of a price increase from one of the other
piano companies this morning. That is only a 5% increase however and
will be reflected in the upcoming fall/winter edition.
The bottom line is:
1. It is a snapshot at that point in time it's published of accurate
prices for dealer use that applies the SAME markup on all pianos to
show a realistic "tag" price.
2. Some dealers that are used to enjoying higher gross profits on the
sale of a particular make DO NOT like it. The reason for this is that
it points out the disparity in the prices that they are charging and
give the consumer a realistic view of the relative value of what
they're getting.
If a customer is looking at a Boston grand piano and comparing it to a
Kawai they will probably find that the Boston dealer wants a couple
extra thousand for the comparable sized grand. The Boston dealer is
probably doing that because the market will bear it due to the limited
distribution of Boston pianos (ie they don't have to be competitive
with another dealer).
Once a buyer is aware of the relative pricing similarities can better
make a decision on the value of the pianos.
Here's the information again on comparing the Boston and Kawai 5'10"
models. These are not the manufacturerers suggested prices, or what
dealers necessarily sell them for but an average "tag price" based on
the same exact mark up from dealer cost.
Make Model Size Ancott Suggested Price
Kawai RX2 5'10" $22690
Boston GP-178 5'10" $22780
On 2004-08-26 16:09:24 -0400, san...@juno.com (Glenn) said:
> Glenn Please stop using Ancott as bible without telling folks that
> there are inaccuracies in it. It is using last years wholesales.
> Yamaha, Boston, Kawai & Chas Walters and others have increased their
> prices on most units. This is causing problems for many of us sales
> slimers, as it is bad enough to have to rebutt lies and build
> credibility*, let alone have folks believe a flawed source.
> Thanks!
>
> snip
>>> GP-193 6'4" $28960 $33677 RX3 6'1" $29390 $22189
>>> RX5 6'6" $32790 $26778
>>
--
Glenn Grafton
> there are inaccuracies in it. It is using last years wholesales.
> Yamaha, Boston, Kawai & Chas Walters and others have increased their
> prices on most units. This is causing problems for many of us sales
> slimers, as it is bad enough to have to rebutt lies and build
> credibility*, let alone have folks believe a flawed source.
> Thanks!
>
> snip
Actually in my checking the Ancott directory is quite accurate. When
--