1915 Chickering 5'8" Piano - restoring info
Sandy M.
1915 Chickering 5'8" Grand piano. I noticed about a week after I
bought it, that the under sides had 2 short 2x4's where the pedal
braces are screwed into. Also, there is a "box" where the left and
right pedals go through, but the middle does not go through. The
mechanism which the middle pedal is suppose to hit is flattened. So I
figured I would either have to rebend it or just get a new one. But
this bix is what has me puzzled. It is hollow.
is there anyone out there that can send me a picture of the under
side, of what it is suppose to look like so I can restore it back to
it's original condition. The rest of the piano is absolutely
beuatiful to look at and listen to.
Also where in the heck is the serial number? I looked every for it!
Thank you,
Sandy
John Inzer
an ex-player. Some Ampico grands had a box mounted on
top of a shortened lyre that contained the pedal pneumatics.
(And yes, Chickering used the Ampico)
Does the piano have double legs? Though there are a few
exceptions...a grand with 6 or 9 legs was usually a player.
Also...look at the bottom of your keybed behind the lyre
and if there's a slot that goes from one side of the keyboard
to the other you definitely have what dealers would call
a gutted player.
Is this what the "box" looks like?
http://tinyurl.com/dqz5
(Your pneumatics would probably be missing, but the
wooden frame should look much the same)
If you determine that your piano was, in fact...a player,
here's a link to some pictures of a disassembled Ampico
player mechanism.
http://tinyurl.com/dr36
(If youi have a dial up connection, it may take a while to load)
--
John Inzer
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"Sandy M." <giraffe...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:54e3ea4b.03060...@posting.google.com...
Sandy M.
You were 100% "right on the money". Thank you so very much for the
reply. Okay so I am not going to put a player back in it. (ha ha)
So is there a way now that I can get the middle pedal to be funcitonal
or can I remove the box? (I know I can remove the box, but can I have
it removed and get parts to make it like a "normal" piano?) I found a
web sight that has all different kinds of parts and it instructs in
detail how to remove the whole keyboard and action. I guess I am
trying to find out if I am stepping into a "dangerous" task. I would
like to attempt it, I think (I'm handy with tools, I have a small
farm.)
So could you please give me some more input?
Thank you again.
Sandy
"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote in message news:<NpAEa.197$Yv4....@eagle.america.net>...
Sandy M.
legs. This is also an Anniversary Grand. I found out that it is the
50th Anniversary of President Lincoln's death. (I was reading one of
the older posts, which you had replied to an other person about thier
1915 Chickering.)
Thank you,
Sandy
"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote in message news:<NpAEa.197$Yv4....@eagle.america.net>...
Radu Focshaner
"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote
> If you determine that your piano was, in fact...a player,
> here's a link to some pictures of a disassembled Ampico
> player mechanism.
> http://tinyurl.com/dr36
At the same site,on the Hall fo Shame page, there are pictures of a "Marantz
Nickelodeon". They mention that "The coin op box with both tape players was
destroyed" . How did these "machines" work ? Like a juke box ?
R.
John Inzer
> At the same site,on the Hall fo Shame page, there
> are pictures of a "Marantz Nickelodeon". They mention
> that "The coin op box with both tape players was
> destroyed" . How did these "machines" work ? Like
> a juke box ?
>
> R.
Hi Radu,
Basically they were a console piano with a built up
cabinet. And the player was a PianoCorder. Also
there was an electronic coin mechanism that would
allow the piano to play one tune for $.25.
The ones I recall played eight track tapes...so rewinding
was not necessary but if the example on the website
had two tape players I guess it played cassettes and
was set up so that one could play while the other was
rewinding.
John Inzer
> Okay so I am not going to put a player back in it. (ha ha)
Good decision, the work involved would be monumental.
===========================================
> So is there a way now that I can get the middle pedal to
> be funcitonal or can I remove the box? (I know I can remove
> the box, but can I have it removed and get parts to make
> it like a "normal" piano?)
I would suspect that an experienced rebuilder could
make your current lyre functional. If not...my suggestion
would be to purchase a new lyre w/ hardware and have
it finished and installed.
Sorry, but an ex-player will never be a normal piano.
===========================================
> I guess I am trying to find out if I am stepping into a
> "dangerous" task. I would like to attempt it, I think
> (I'm handy with tools, I have a small farm.)
> So could you please give me some more input?
===========================================
If by dangerous you mean to say..."Am I opening a
can of worms"? Yes you are. I cannot express strongly
enough that if you wish this instrument to function correctly...
hire a competent rebuilder to do the work you require.
===========================================
> This is also an Anniversary Grand.
===========================================
If your Chickering has a brass plate on the cheek
block that denotes it as an anniversary model...it
was built in 1923.
Radu Focshaner
> Basically they were a console piano with a built up
> cabinet. And the player was a PianoCorder. Also
> there was an electronic coin mechanism that would
> allow the piano to play one tune for $.25.
>
> The ones I recall played eight track tapes...so rewinding
> was not necessary but if the example on the website
> had two tape players I guess it played cassettes and
> was set up so that one could play while the other was
> rewinding.
Thanks. I googled for this system and I understand that the tapes had
encoded data (sampled at 27ms intervals) processed by the electronics to
activate solenoids. And I also understand that Yamaha bought the system to
put it out of business , in order to promote its Disk Klavier ( and people
say Bill Gates is the bad guy ...)
John Inzer
> And I also understand that Yamaha bought the system to
> put it out of business , in order to promote its Disk Klavier
Hi Radu,
Googling in the rec.music.makers.piano newsgroup and
searching for... I. Herbert Orr ... (correct name..J. Herbert Orr)
you'll find some background on the solenoid system.
Here's a link:
http://tinyurl.com/dwsq
I'm thinking the tape library that Joseph Tushinski...
(ownerof Marantz/SuperScope PianoCorder) spent a
fortune creating...was of major interest to Yamaha.
Sandy M.
number 133 on the frame, at the opposite end of the keyboard (the
metal that holds the strings or is it 113, now I can't remember), what
does this mean?
I also found out from some other sites about the piano (The
Anniversary Grand). This is raised up letters on the inside above the
action facing up. it say "The Anniversary Grand". I found out from
some extensive research, I will try to find the site and post it.
This is the 50th Anniversary of Lincon's death.
But thank you for all the helpful insights. yes, I will get a pro to
install my lyre.
jagu...@swbell.net
wrote:
The Anniversary Grand is a model built during 1923, the hundredth
anniversary of Chickering's first year of production (company
established by Jonas Chickering, former cabinet maker, in Boston,
Mass. 1823), not the 50th anniversary of Lincoln's death. Although
Lincoln owned two Chickerings, I don't think the had much else to do
with the company. (He died in 1865.)
The 113 or 133 on the frame is the "scale" number for the piano. It
is Chickering's designation for a particular stringing scale, which
includes the wires' speaking lengths and wires' diameters, and other
related factors (like soundboard size, bridge placement and shape,
etc.) that influence the overall architectural plan for the strung
area that dictates to large degree the piano's tone potential. Other
makers sometimes use numbers also, or may use letters or even
combinations to describe their scales. The designations are not
universal from company to company.
Good luck with your Chickering. I hope it will bring you as much joy
as mine brings me.
John Inzer
As Jaguar points out...the Chickering Anniversary Model
was built in 1923 to honor their centennial, having begun
doing business in 1823.
I have no idea what you may have found on the internet but
it has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham Lincoln.
--
John Inzer
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"Sandy M." <giraffe...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:54e3ea4b.03061...@posting.google.com...
michael martin
> I would suspect that an experienced rebuilder could
> make your current lyre functional. If not...my suggestion
> would be to purchase a new lyre w/ hardware and have
> it finished and installed.
>
> Sorry, but an ex-player will never be a normal piano.
> ===========================================
jagu...@swbell.net
wrote:
>As Jaguar points out...the Chickering Anniversary Model
>was built in 1923 to honor their centennial, having begun
>doing business in 1823.
>
>I have no idea what you may have found on the internet but
>it has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham Lincoln.
GiraffeGoddess,
Lincoln died in 1865. 1923 minus 1865 equals 58 years difference.
If I didn't know why they were celebrated as "Anniversary Grands",
their introduction still couldn't have coincided with the 50th
anniversary of Lincoln's death. The 50th anniversary of Lincoln's
death would have been in 1915. You may have read it somewhere on a
web site, but it is quite simply not correct. I don't think the
Chickering Co. would have introduced a model to commemorate his death,
a very sad occurrence, in any event, and if they were so disrespectful
of so solemn an occasion as to do so, they wouldn't have done it 8
years late.
There are many books detailing by parts the history of Chickering and
Sons which always mention the "Anniversary Grand". Chickering
"Anniversary Grands" were built in 1923 (all of them, and all with
little plaques). It was much ballyhooed because Chickering was then
the first and oldest piano maker in the U.S.
President Coolidge is reported to have attended the 100th anniversary
festivities in Boston where the "Anniversary Grand" was introduced.
It was a "big deal".
There is an interesting brief history of Chickering online and a
Chickering Registry at:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9580/
The site is maintained by Mr. Ed Koontz of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Mr. Koontz has provided a fairly extensive bibliograhpy of literature
you may find interesting as a resource for further information about
Chickering & Sons and their pianos.
With regard to former-players, there are often keybed length and
keyweight balance issues that remain uncorrected and even
uncorrectable with players that have been stripped of the mechanism.
There are sometimes other issues of action geometry as well that can
be difficult or impractical to correct. These pianos were not just
ordinary pianos with an added mechanism. Design accommodations
(additional length--and not where it counts-- and more) were made to
allow complex and often bulky player machinery to coexist with the
action. You probably will not be able to judge the intended touch of
a Chickering by what you have now. (That said, I don't know how
significant the ultimate difference in touch and response will be to
you.)
I'm hoping for the best result for you. A competent tech can help you
with the pedal assembly and assess the potential for manual
playability and the work that may be required to optimize it .
John Inzer
> Will it be a lesser instrument than a "normal" piano? If so, how?
Let's just say that practically every component had to
be modified in one way or another to accommodate the
installation of the player mechanism.
Here are pictures of an Ampico system that has been
removed from a grand.
Tom Shaw
For some reason that link doesn't work for me. My s/w indicates it gets
about half way thru the download and stops on a blank white screen.
TS
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"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote in message
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michael martin
ex-player would be a lesser instrument. The keys are longer on an
ex-player, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Is the action any
different? Would the tone be any different? It seems that players
used the same scale design as their normal counterparts, they can be
rebuilt with the same hammers, strings, etc. that you would use to
rebuild a "normal" piano, so how do the the player modifications
affect the instrument's musical properties?
"Tom Shaw" <a000...@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<bcn8cb$n...@library2.airnews.net>...
John Inzer
> John,
> For some reason that link doesn't work for me. My s/w indicates it gets
> about half way thru the download and stops on a blank white screen.
> TS
Hi Tom,
The link is functioning...possibly you need to delete
some temp files or something.
Try this link to one of images:
http://tinyurl.com/dr2x
John Inzer
> The link worked for me, but I can't tell from those pictures
> why an ex-player would be a lesser instrument.
You're reading something into my post that I never
said. My statement was,
"Sorry, but an ex-player will never be a normal piano."
It's entirely possible that a gutted player could be
restored into a decent instrument. What I mean by
never be *normal* refers to the simple fact that practically
every component of a piano has to be modified in some
way to accomodate the installation of the player
mechanism. These modifications will always be there,
so....removing the player mechanism does not mean
"Now I have a normal piano".
BTW the key sticks are not longer in all players, this refers
mainly to the Duo-Art system and we are currenty discussing
the Ampico.
Tom Shaw
asked :-).
TS
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"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote in message
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John Inzer
> Bingo! Got it that time. However after looking at the scan I am sorry I
> asked :-).
> TS
Quite a pile of *left overs* huh?
Robert S.
> "michael martin" wrote:
> Will it be a lesser instrument than a "normal" piano? If so, how?
For one thing, the keys are shorter.
Of course, it it were a carefully restored player, it would be an
interesting instrument.
Sandy M.
know they may be wrong. But this what I went by.
http://www.shafferpianos.com/chickering.html also
http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/classifieds_0302.html.
I have searched and searched the internet to find a 1923 Anniversary
grand 5'8". I cannot find no such length in that year. If you find
one please let me know. All what I can find is 5'8" in 1915 as an
Anniversary Grand.
But I am still unable to find the article comemmorating Lincoln's 50th
Anniversary of his death. (1865-1915) is 50 yrs. I know I found it
some where. (ha ha)
I would like to find out now, if I have a 1915 or 1923 5'8"
Chickering.
Thank you to anyone who can help me.
Sandy
Sandy M.
This is a continuation of my other posting...
I found a message board posted June 8, 2000. A person put the serial
number of her Anniversary grand and it came up 1915. So I am really
confused now...
Thank you,
Sandy
michael martin
about whether it was a lesser instrument - that every component had to
be modified to accommodate the player mechanism - seemed to suggest
that you thought the modifications did have a negative impact on the
piano's musical qualities. I have seen negative comments about
ex-players on this NG in the past, but have not seen a clear
explanation of what, exactly, it is about them that supposedly makes
them musically inferior to a normal piano. So I was just curious
about that.
"John Inzer" <oo...@doobie.xyz> wrote in message news:<5KJHa.150$Rk4....@eagle.america.net>...
jagu...@swbell.net
ink/paint on the metal harp, usually on the brace that runs from front
to back about a foot from the left side. If for any reason that has
been obliterated by a harp repaint, it can be very difficult to pin
down it's serial through the records at the Smithsonian, but it can be
done with some crossreferencing of case numbers and other numbers that
appear on other parts of the piano such as the action.
I have a fairly decent chart that dates their production to within
just a few years. (The Web-published age tables too often give a
spread of even as high as 20-50 years which certainly isn't good for
narrowing things down and leaves one guessing based on "styles" which
are often misleading as Chickering built both early "moderns" and late
"Victorians" for a very long overlapping period of time.
I believe the dating of that anniversary grand at Shaffer's is someone
trying to work with the loose numbers available and using their best
judgement .
There may be only one Chickering piano whose exact year is not in
question--the Anniversary Grand. There is no question that the
Anniversary Grand was made in 1923 and only 1923, to commemorate
Chickering's 100th year milestone. It was advertised as such and
plenty of documents attest to that. I have no doubt whatsoever that
your piano is a 1923 model. As is the one at Shaffer. And the one in
the Juillard ad (if it's not in fact the same piano advertised under
another venue--quite common).
I've seen a number of these Anniversary Grands for sale over the past
year on E-Bay and elsewhere around the web, mostly correctly dated at
1923 (sometimes with original paperwork). If I can find an article
about this particular model, I'll be more than happy to e-mail it to
you. It's probably already somewhere in my personal archives of more
than 500 MB of info. It'll take me a while to sift through all of
that.
I've become something of a Chickering fanatic. I'm hoping you will
enjoy yours so much so that you will become one also. Happy
tinkering and playing until either of us finds the definitive word on
the year.
On 17 Jun 2003 18:54:10 -0700, giraffe...@mac.com (Sandy M.)
wrote:
>Here are the sights I found linking the Anniversary Grand to 1915. I
jagu...@swbell.net
wrote:
>Hi,
>This is a continuation of my other posting...
>
And here's a bit more to go with mine earlier, not what we're looking
for, but interesting all the same (more than 200 medals for their
designs!)
See the excerpt from Larry Fine's Blue Book of Piano's at:
http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/kron3.htm#LetterC
Scroll down to Chickering for some good brief reading.
Now back to searching the archives...
jagu...@swbell.net
jagu...@swbell.net
wrote:
>I have searched and searched the internet to find a 1923 Anniversary
>grand 5'8".
Sandy,
One more point that I failed to mention in the other posts--the 5'8"
pianos were built well into the 30's. Chickering turned out these and
even larger, even 9 ft. pianos well into the 30's. I've played a few
of these later examples. The Scale 133 5'8" is actually one of the
pianos of that size that I think speaks with a much larger voice than
many pianos of a larger size. That scale was built for many years.
I'm still looking for the holy grail of 1923, but while I'm looking,
I'm thumbing through simply lots of 5'8''s well into American Piano
Co. buy-out years and into the 30's. Played some 6's and 6'6"s from
that era myself.
Rick W.
Sandy M.
received. I have searched and searched on the piano and I cannot find
the serial number anywhere. I also know the person who refurbished
it, had also told me he couldn't find a serial number.
Although I do have to say "Thank you" to all of those who helped me
out with the huge amount of information on my piano.