Stieff upright
Ted Lucas
Baltimore, serial number 12136." Can anyone tell me anything about it or where
I can find out? Thanks. Ted Lucas.
Rick Clark
Stieff was amoung the best if not the best of the American upright
makers. However, as your serial number dates to 1895, this piano was
probably due for rebuilding 50 years ago. Unfortunately, the economics
of rebuilding old uprights does not work out as it does for fine
quality grands. There is no established market for old uprights to
sell for more than a couple thousand $ ( a couple hundred is more
common), yet a good, thorough rebuilding would be $10,000+. So usually
these old uprights just get sold back and forth for small amounts of
money. Many people like them just for their looks and if all the keys
make sound they are satisfied. But most of them are full of serious
problems that keep them from performing as they did when new. IOW,
many work "OK", but almost none are up to their true potential.
However, if you ever wanted to choose a piano for a 'labor of love'
restoration, the Stieff may be a good candidate.
Rick Clark
fresaint
Gary wrote in message <85kmna$45c$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au>...
>
>Rick Clark wrote in message <387dc975...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>tedl...@aol.com (Ted Lucas) wrote:
>>
>>>Friends -- My daughter has recently gotten a piano, labelled "Chas. M.
>Stieff,
>>>Baltimore, serial number 12136." Can anyone tell me anything about it or
>where
>>>I can find out? Thanks. Ted Lucas.
>>
>>Stieff was amoung the best if not the best of the American upright
>>makers. However, as your serial number dates to 1895, this piano was
>>probably due for rebuilding 50 years ago.
>
> Yep , Has probably had patch up jobs which has allowed it to survive
>thus far.
>
> Unfortunately, the economics
>>of rebuilding old uprights does not work out as it does for fine
>>quality grands. There is no established market for old uprights to
>>sell for more than a couple thousand $ ( a couple hundred is more
>>common), yet a good, thorough rebuilding would be $10,000+.
>
> I can and I can't agree with you on this Rick.There definitely IS a
>market where I am for that unique u/r which combines the attributes of
>quality and furniture and -turn of the century -vintage holds great appeal
>for many people.I currently have 5 customers on my list waiting for me to
>supply them with a quality restored piano ( albeit , to fit in with their
>period architecture) ,10,000+$American seems very exorbitant to me as a
cost
>to restore an u/r piano and I can make a good living by charging half of
>this price.
> Most good pianos stay in the family and it is mostly recycled rubbish
>which comes on the market so you have to be very lucky to be in the right
>place at the right time to aquire that elusive magical piano that combines
>structural , functional and optical attributes.
> Also , many people may not have the room for a grand and a high quality
>u/r will be just spiffing for them.
>
> So usually
>>these old uprights just get sold back and forth for small amounts of
>>money. Many people like them just for their looks and if all the keys
>>make sound they are satisfied. But most of them are full of serious
>>problems that keep them from performing as they did when new. IOW,
>>many work "OK", but almost none are up to their true potential.
>
> Ain't that the truth.
Rick Clark
>10,000+$American seems very exorbitant to me as a cost
>to restore an u/r piano and I can make a good living by charging half of
>this price.
I'm betting you are doing a lot less work than I am talking about. I'm
talking about the same level of rebuilding I would do on a quality
grand, which on an 1895 piano would have to include new soundboard and
bridges. Now if you can do that, plus rebuild the rest of the piano to
like new condition for $5000 I would be truly amazed.
Or are you "restoring" them by fixing what is currently broken,
replace rotten-looking components, refinish, regulate, restring, and
leave it at that? I can see that for $5000.
Rick
piano guy
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Rick Clark <piano...@spambotsmustdie.com> wrote in message
news:387e50d...@news.mindspring.com...
Gary
Rick Clark wrote in message <387dc975...@news.mindspring.com>...
>tedl...@aol.com (Ted Lucas) wrote:
>
>>Friends -- My daughter has recently gotten a piano, labelled "Chas. M.
Stieff,
>>Baltimore, serial number 12136." Can anyone tell me anything about it or
where
>>I can find out? Thanks. Ted Lucas.
>
>Stieff was amoung the best if not the best of the American upright
>makers. However, as your serial number dates to 1895, this piano was
>probably due for rebuilding 50 years ago.
Yep , Has probably had patch up jobs which has allowed it to survive
thus far.
Unfortunately, the economics
>of rebuilding old uprights does not work out as it does for fine
>quality grands. There is no established market for old uprights to
>sell for more than a couple thousand $ ( a couple hundred is more
>common), yet a good, thorough rebuilding would be $10,000+.
I can and I can't agree with you on this Rick.There definitely IS a
market where I am for that unique u/r which combines the attributes of
quality and furniture and -turn of the century -vintage holds great appeal
for many people.I currently have 5 customers on my list waiting for me to
supply them with a quality restored piano ( albeit , to fit in with their
period architecture) ,10,000+$American seems very exorbitant to me as a cost
to restore an u/r piano and I can make a good living by charging half of
this price.
Rick Clark
>Who's installing new soundboards in uprights? Beam me up Scottie.
It's being done by few. Seen Journal articles on it. But actually your
point is my point- that you *don't* do complete rebuilding of
uprights, (normally). Too expensive given the market for them. Yet a
very high % of them have serious bridge problems, enough to warrant
bridge replacement... and if you're going to do that, there's no sense
leaving that old soundboard in there which ribs may fail at any time,
if they haven't already, not to mention the other usual soundboard
issues.
Rick
piano guy
just had no idea that anyone would spend the money to do the job. I'm glad
to hear it because I like uprights, they have a special sort of charm all
their own.
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Rick Clark <piano...@spambotsmustdie.com> wrote in message
news:387ea298...@news.mindspring.com...
Rick Clark
I didn't mean anything negative by using the term "restoring" in
quotes. I just mean that it is a term with a very flexible meaning
that people use in different ways. Reading it back, I realised it may
have come off as sarcasm, not my intention.
Rick
Ethel Jean Saltz
first child's entry into the piano world, there was a general saying,
if you don't know anything about pianos then for $50 get a Stieff with
a good soundboard. Which I luckily did. I did my 1 1/2 year stint with
piano lessons first on it so I could know what my kids were going to
learn. Then my 7YO son took my place with the piano teacher, on that
same piano. It bought me experience so that I did know what kind of
"feel" I wanted from a piano. I ended up with an Everett.
One of my daughters, 44YO, is now interested in getting a piano. So
when I happened to be in a piano store for incidental items, I started
fingering the pianos. Brought back that "feeling" of what I wanted in
a piano. It was "resistance" that I was most comfortable with.
BTW, my short-term piano teacher, a year ago, ended up selling me his
old unused now Everett which saved me from spending time shopping. I
still love it. Yamaha bought up the company. It's not made any more.
The Yamaha site has a list of serial numbers. Unfortunately the serial
number was obliterated off the metal name plate, so I'll never know
the year of my current Everett.
Be-ahavah oo-ve-shalom, Queen Jean of Creekbend
Mac-Niet-Spin-Gal, 391 A.G. (after Galileo/5370)
mailto: nie...@airmail.net
John S. Gray
soundboards/bridges/pinplanks, but that was 1981.
Are they still going?
A Mr. Stephenson of London, Ontario, was rumoured to have a working
soundboard press in his shop, and that was only 10 years ago. His work is
highly praised from a number of quarters.
Old pointers, I know.
JG
John S. Gray
a warranty problem) which is best, I think, left off the NG. Anyway, I
cannot break through your spam-proofing. Please e-mail me
<db...@torfree.net> when you have a spare moment, please & thanks.
I know that I had your address somewhere, but I can't find it. Sorry. My
fault.
John S. Gray
up in Canada
Clark
perception as to how one should orient the grain of a bridge cap; Knabes made in B.
share this dilemma - at least if this is in New England, undoubtedly the bridges are
in poor condition and need attention, though they are fine and well-constructed
instruments otherwise.
The difference between old uprights and grands? Well, _one_ of the two has an action
that's changed a lot since 1821. So people are used to it, big deal - what's the
problem in restoring either? Upright cases are easier to refinish, and their
soundboards are easier to replace.
We've got a Mason upright in the shop with a sb worse than the 5-rib Chickering 121
grand. How does a simple evaluation count either?
Just my thoughts,
Clark
Roby Daniels
cac...@net1plus.com says...
I don't have a clue here, but am very interested in
someone's best guesstimate...
Given an upright and a grand, both of which need complete
rebuilding and refinishing, what are there factors that
would cause the cost to be significantly different between
the two? This question assumes that all the same parts
would be either repaired or replaced.
TIA
Roby
Rick Clark
>Given an upright and a grand, both of which need complete
>rebuilding and refinishing, what are there factors that
>would cause the cost to be significantly different between
>the two? This question assumes that all the same parts
>would be either repaired or replaced.
It's a good question, and I don't see a significant difference in cost
when one rebuilds to the same degree.
What happens in the real world (the U.S. market, anyway) is that most
rebuilders adjust how much work the piano receives to the amount of
money they believe they can get. The same can also apply to grands.
Grand Rebuilder A may think he can only easily sell a certain
instrument for, say, $7500, so he does a little of this, a little of
that, fills up the budget, and calls the job "done". Alternately or
simultaneously, Rebuilder A may not have the technical skills to do a
more complete job anyway- and thus rebuilds only what he knows how to
do. Rebuilder B may be more of a no-compromise type, *who only chooses
a piano which ultimate market might bear, say, a $20000+price* , then
truly "rebuilds" it including soundboard, bridges, new action, etc.
Since most people shop by price, Rebuilder A's approach is the most
popular.
Somewhere in between would be a quality rebuilder who may not
automatically replace every soundboard and bridge or whippen, but
rather inspects each system closely and replaces anything looking
"suspicious", but might also leave in or recondition whichever "old
parts" are obviously completely sound. He may sell the piano for
whatever he thinks the market will bear or may have some kind of
formula for determining price.
In the case of uprights, so-called "reconditioning" almost always goes
to the minimal way of doing things, because there is so little market
for $10,000+ old uprights. A typical "rebuild" at the high end might
be refinish-restring-action fix-up, new key covers. At the low end, I
find refinishing, new key covers + "make all the keys work" being
passed of as "reconditioned" or "rebuilt". But virtually none getting
the same degree of rebuilding as high-end grand rebuilding, even
though they could use it. The market won't bear it.
Rick
Gary
Roby Daniels wrote in message ...
>someone's best guesstimate...
>
>rebuilding and refinishing, what are there factors that
>would cause the cost to be significantly different between
>the two? This question assumes that all the same parts
>would be either repaired or replaced.
>
>Roby
Hi Roby
There are a few factors at play here.Soundboards and pinblocks are
almost never replaced on an U/R( If they needed it then you wouldn't take
them on in the first place).Cheaper materials are used on an U/R .U/R pianos
are aquired either for free or at low cost whereas good prices have to be
paid for quality grands.U/R's are much easier to regulate ( i am referring
to the process of making it nice to play ) than grands.
The labour cost and time is the same but U/R's are "bread and butter"as
they sell quickly as they are more affordable for most people.
I make bigger profits on my beautiful Grands but I also take bigger risks
with them as well.But I must be doing something right because I can't keep
up with demand.TOUCH WOOD!
B.t.w. Is Roby your full name or is it short for a longer name?
Regards Gary.
Frank Weston
Roby Daniels wrote:
>Given an upright and a grand, both of which need complete
>rebuilding and refinishing, what are there factors that
>would cause the cost to be significantly different between
>the two? This question assumes that all the same parts
>would be either repaired or replaced.
>
An upright would probably cost more. Disassembling/reassembling an upright
may require some cabinet work. An upright pinblock is very difficult to
replace. Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
more difficult to work on. Uprights may have many more hinges and metal
parts that need replating. Upright trapwork is a little more complicated.
All in all the cost/time differences are not huge, but they are significant.
The real down side is that an upright of good quality will cost as much or
more to restore than a grand and will sell for maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of what a
grand of equivalent quality will bring.
Frank Weston
P.S. I'm thinking about going into business converting old uprights into
digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
LFletc6143
>digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
It's a good plan, Frank. I've toyed with the idea myself. Also consider
aquariums, or wine cases.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/Technician
Roby Daniels
piano...@spambotsmustdie.com says...
> It's a good question, and I don't see a significant difference in cost
> when one rebuilds to the same degree.
>
> What happens in the real world (the U.S. market, anyway) is that most
> rebuilders adjust how much work the piano receives to the amount of
> money they believe they can get. The same can also apply to grands.
> Grand Rebuilder A may think he can only easily sell a certain
Thank you for a very thorough explanation.
If in the market for a rebuilt piano, either upright or
grand, is there a best way to determine what exactly has
been done to a particular instrument?
(I wonder this, because I fear that a given piano could be
made to sound and play quite well for a short period,
without having been thoroughly re-worked.)
Would most technicians called in as a consultant be able to
determine this by examination?
Thank you,
Roby
lflet...@my-deja.com
"Gary" <Pri...@unreachable.com> wrote:
>
> Frank Weston wrote in message <85psiq$73f$1...@nw003t.infi.net>...
> Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
> >more difficult to work on.
>
>
Are you basing that on experience or just stating a "belief"? Anyone
who has even "looked" closely at the two action types can tell that a
vertical action is much more complicated and more difficult to work on.
The grand action is almost simple in comparison to a vertical.
> >P.S. I'm thinking about going into business converting old uprights
into
> >digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
>
> I hope that you are saying this "tongue in cheek " Frank.
>
>
I will let Frank speak for Frank, but I don't think his tongue was
anywhere near his cheek. Most of the old uprights have mush on the
inside and the possibility of a pretty piece of furniture on the
outside. What's wrong with turning one into a digital? That's the only
way it will every make music again. Everyone should own an 800 pound
digital. If you want to be a "purist", don't waste the effort on an old
upright. Make a door stop out of it.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/technician
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Roby Daniels
Pri...@unreachable.com says...
> Hi Roby
> There are a few factors at play here.Soundboards and pinblocks are
> almost never replaced on an U/R( If they needed it then you wouldn't take
> them on in the first place).Cheaper materials are used on an U/R .U/R pianos
> are aquired either for free or at low cost whereas good prices have to be
> paid for quality grands.U/R's are much easier to regulate ( i am referring
> to the process of making it nice to play ) than grands.
> The labour cost and time is the same but U/R's are "bread and butter"as
> they sell quickly as they are more affordable for most people.
> I make bigger profits on my beautiful Grands but I also take bigger risks
> with them as well.But I must be doing something right because I can't keep
> up with demand.TOUCH WOOD!
> B.t.w. Is Roby your full name or is it short for a longer name?
> Regards Gary.
Thanks for your response, Gary...
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. If I, on the other
hand, were to find an upright that needed work and
contracted with you or another rebuilder to give it the full
treatment, then could I assume that it *could* cost in the
neighborhood what rebuilding a grand would cost? The
decision, of course, made up front by the client. Not a
situation where the rebuilder would have to find a buyer
after the fact.
Oh, BTW, my full name is Roby Taylor Daniels and, no, it's
not a nickname.
Thanks again...
piano guy
I think the idea of computer desks is a good one, and there are plenty of
old klunkers out there.
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Frank Weston <kla...@annap.infi.net> wrote in message
news:85psiq$73f$1...@nw003t.infi.net...
>
> Roby Daniels wrote:
>
> >Given an upright and a grand, both of which need complete
> >rebuilding and refinishing, what are there factors that
> >would cause the cost to be significantly different between
> >the two? This question assumes that all the same parts
> >would be either repaired or replaced.
> >
> An upright would probably cost more. Disassembling/reassembling an
upright
> may require some cabinet work. An upright pinblock is very difficult to
> replace. Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
> more difficult to work on. Uprights may have many more hinges and metal
> parts that need replating. Upright trapwork is a little more
complicated.
> All in all the cost/time differences are not huge, but they are
significant.
>
> The real down side is that an upright of good quality will cost as much
or
> more to restore than a grand and will sell for maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of what a
> grand of equivalent quality will bring.
>
> Frank Weston
>
piano guy
> >Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
> >more difficult to work on.
Gary wrote:> I.M.O. Frank , Not true , in fact I believe the opposite to
be true.
=========================================================
Sorry Gary...a complete restoration on an upright is much more complicated
than a grand. And my answer is not just an opinion...it's based on
experience. And why not convert broken down uprights into useable
furniture, most of them will never be restored as pianos.
Gary
>more difficult to work on.
I.M.O. Frank , Not true , in fact I believe the opposite to be true.
>P.S. I'm thinking about going into business converting old uprights into
>digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
I hope that you are saying this "tongue in cheek " Frank.
Yogi Panda
> digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
FWIW, my wife vetoed the idea of placing my Clavinova into a square
grand case, but I seriously think that there is a market for digital
pianos in a nice conventional piano case, no joke ... Yogi
Gary
lflet...@my-deja.com wrote in message <85qk35$651$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> Frank Weston wrote in message <85psiq$73f$1...@nw003t.infi.net>...
>> Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
>> >more difficult to work on.
>>
>> I.M.O. Frank , Not true , in fact I believe the opposite to be true.
>>
>
>who has even "looked" closely at the two action types can tell that a
>vertical action is much more complicated and more difficult to work on.
>The grand action is almost simple in comparison to a vertical.
O.K. Larry , off the top of my head a comparison :
Grand action.
1.chassis 2.action brackets ( 4 ) 3.whippen 4.jack 5.roller (knuckle)
6.hammer & shank
7.repetition lever 8.drop screw & repetition button 9.set-off rail 10.back
check 11.hammer rest rail 12. damper lever 13.damper lift rail 14.damper
lift flange 15.damper 16.damper spoon (if you're lucky)
Upright action.
1.chassis 2.action brackets (2) 3.whippen (always *with* a damper
spoon)4.jack 5.notch (knuckle) 6.hammer & shank 7.counter check 8.check
9.damper lift rail 10 damper 11.bridle tape.12. set - off rail 13. hammer
rest rail.
Decide for yourself.
>>a
>vertical action is much more complicated and more difficult to work on.
I challenge you to accurately tune , voice and regulate the action &
keyboard on a "basket case" Grand quicker than I can on a "basket case"
Upright.
>
>> >P.S. I'm thinking about going into business converting old uprights
>into
>> >digital pianos or computer desks. Anybody interested?
>>
>> I hope that you are saying this "tongue in cheek " Frank.
>>
>>
>
>I will let Frank speak for Frank, but I don't think his tongue was
>anywhere near his cheek. Most of the old uprights have mush on the
>inside and the possibility of a pretty piece of furniture on the
>outside. What's wrong with turning one into a digital? That's the only
>way it will every make music again. Everyone should own an 800 pound
>digital. If you want to be a "purist", don't waste the effort on an old
>upright. Make a door stop out of it.
This is an old idea and indeed kits have been available for years.I
personally think that it is a horrid aberration and I would rather put the
money toward a better digital .
Yes , Frank can certainly speak for himself but I am sure that Frank would
agree with me when I say that "time is money" and I just can't imagine Frank
devoting much time to these *cottage* pursuits.O.t.o.h. maybe I'm wrong and
they are the next big thing.
Gary.
Gary
piano guy wrote in message ...
>Frank Weston wrote:
>> >Upright actions are generally more complicated than a grand and
>> >more difficult to work on.
>Gary wrote:> I.M.O. Frank , Not true , in fact I believe the opposite to
>be true.
>=========================================================
>Sorry Gary...a complete restoration on an upright is much more complicated
>than a grand. And my answer is not just an opinion...it's based on
>experience.
to be so.
And why not convert broken down uprights into useable
>furniture, most of them will never be restored as pianos.
Yes I agree , if you have the time.
Regards Gary.
Frank Weston
Gary wrote:
> O.K. Larry , off the top of my head a comparison :
>
> Grand action.
>1.chassis 2.action brackets ( 4 ) 3.whippen 4.jack 5.roller (knuckle)
>6.hammer & shank
>7.repetition lever 8.drop screw & repetition button 9.set-off rail 10.back
>check 11.hammer rest rail 12. damper lever 13.damper lift rail 14.damper
>lift flange 15.damper 16.damper spoon (if you're lucky)
> Upright action.
>1.chassis 2.action brackets (2) 3.whippen (always *with* a damper
>spoon)4.jack 5.notch (knuckle) 6.hammer & shank 7.counter check 8.check
>9.damper lift rail 10 damper 11.bridle tape.12. set - off rail 13. hammer
>rest rail.
> Decide for yourself.
If the complication of a piece of machinery were determined simply on the
basis of number of parts, then winding a clock would be 100's of times more
difficult than pounding a nail. Moreover, you are off on your parts count.
> I challenge you to accurately tune , voice and regulate the action &
>keyboard on a "basket case" Grand quicker than I can on a "basket case"
>Upright.
Do we get to include the time it will take you to find or manufacture
upright parts that are no longer in existence? Will you be having new brass
hammer flanges machined at tremendous expense or will you be attempting to
do bandaid repairs to the old ones? How many times will you be pulling the
action in a vain attempt to make the dampers actually work?
>>I will let Frank speak for Frank, but I don't think his tongue was
>>anywhere near his cheek. Most of the old uprights have mush on the
>>inside and the possibility of a pretty piece of furniture on the
>>outside. What's wrong with turning one into a digital? That's the only
>>way it will every make music again. Everyone should own an 800 pound
>>digital. If you want to be a "purist", don't waste the effort on an old
>>upright. Make a door stop out of it.
>
> This is an old idea and indeed kits have been available for years.I
>personally think that it is a horrid aberration and I would rather put the
>money toward a better digital .
>Yes , Frank can certainly speak for himself but I am sure that Frank would
>agree with me when I say that "time is money" and I just can't imagine
Frank
>devoting much time to these *cottage* pursuits.O.t.o.h. maybe I'm wrong and
>they are the next big thing.
>
Obviously you have not priced quality hardwood lately. The types of woods,
veneer and solids used in old uprights are going for $8 to $12 per bd. ft.
or sq. ft. At that rate a big old upright is worth about $300 just for the
wood, more if the posts can be removed and used for other projects. Why not
take old uprights that will never be of any use to anyone again as pianos
and convert them to take advantage of their value as fine furniture? What
really kills me is to see beautiful wood and quality woodworking carted off
to the dump just because it will never be economically feasible to restore
it as a musical instrument. Believe me, enough old uprights will survive to
stock all the museums that want them in original condition. Moreover, if we
convert enough of them to furniture, maybe the price will be driven so high
on those remaining that it will actually become economically feasible to
restore them as pianos.
Frank Weston - looking for a Victorian era Knabe upright (to restore at huge
profit)
kam...@flash.net
> Gary wrote:
>
> > I challenge you to accurately tune , voice and regulate the action &
> >keyboard on a "basket case" Grand quicker than I can on a "basket case"
> >Upright.
>
> ...How many times will you be pulling the
> action in a vain attempt to make the dampers actually work?...
After new replacement damper levers wires have been shaped to match the old
ones and installed in the action while it is outside the piano, then aside from
the few unique and special situations that exist, regulating the damper system
in an ordinary upright piano is not a difficult act to accomplish with the
action in the piano, and it certainly is not necessary to pull (remove) the
action to do so.
--
Keith McGavern
Registered Piano Technician
Oklahoma Chapter 731
Piano Technicians Guild
USA
kam...@flash.net
validity of rebuilding old uprights, researching the series
of articles Don Valley, RPT in South Carolina contributed to
the Piano Technicians Journal from July 1994 through October
1996 entitled _Behold The Upright_ would be an excellent
place to start.
I visited with him at one of the past national conventions,
and after some table conversation, he clearly demonstrated
to me, in conjunction with his articles, the feasibility of
doing this type activity and its advantageous for both
business and customers.
piano guy
The pinblock is an integral part of an upright, the sides of the piano have
to be knocked off and the block literally has to be chiseled off the back
structure. In most grands the block just lifts out clean after removing the
plate. And even the blocks that are glued and dowelled are easier to remove
than an upright pin block.
Installing a complete set of damper levers would cause most piano tech's to
commit themselves to a mental ward. Grands don't have damper levers, they
have under levers and don't require all the accurate bending and spacing
necessary on an upright. However, the damper wires on a grand can be tricky
but there is no reason to replace them.
Adjusting the damper spoons on an upright requires much practice and skill,
grands don't have any such part.
Bottom line, if you replace all the parts in an upright action, and replace
the soundboard, bridges and pin block...you have a much more complicated
rebuild job than you would have if you did a similar restoration on a
grand.
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Gary <Pri...@unreachable.com> wrote in message
news:85sarl$bnp$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au...
Gary
piano guy wrote in message ...
>
>The pinblock is an integral part of an upright, the sides of the piano have
>to be knocked off and the block literally has to be chiseled off the back
>structure. In most grands the block just lifts out clean after removing the
>plate. And even the blocks that are glued and dowelled are easier to remove
P.G. Thanks for your response. I agree entirely about the pinblock and
also the soundboard. If these are shot then the piano is a boat anchor.But
there are still a large number of high quality U/R's which are still
structurally sound and only require larger wrestpins. Old German pianos used
very small wrestpins originally and are very suitable for this.
>Installing a complete set of damper levers would cause most piano tech's to
>commit themselves to a mental ward. Grands don't have damper levers, they
>have under levers and don't require all the accurate bending and spacing
>necessary on an upright.
I replace the damper felts only ( which I make myself ) and
tails,retaining the original levers.Bending and spacing wires on an U/R is a
"piece of cake" to get uniform lift and I am a little bewildered as to why
others should find this difficult.
> However, the damper wires on a grand can be tricky
>but there is no reason to replace them.
No reason to replace them on an U/R either
>Adjusting the damper spoons on an upright requires much practice and skill,
Yes , I believe that I have this skill.
>grands don't have any such part.
Yes they do.
>
>Bottom line, if you replace all the parts in an upright action, and replace
>the soundboard, bridges and pin block...you have a much more complicated
>rebuild job than you would have if you did a similar restoration on a
>grand.
Well o.k. , I concur with you about the pinblock but I have never said
otherwise.
Regards
Gary.
Ryan Linderman
I read that Steingraeber will take an old upright and completely replace the
insides with a brand new
piano, while preserving the case. This is just another twist, and might be pretty
cool for beautiful family
heirlooms that are now worthless as instruments.
Ryn
piano guy
I guess you forgot that we were discussing *complete* restoration, not the
reconditioning that you speak of. And I still say there are few piano techs
who can accurately install a set of upright damper levers. You make your
own dampers huh? how nice.
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Gary <Pri...@unreachable.com> wrote in message
news:85upu8$5ek$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au...
kam...@flash.net
> ...I still say there are few piano techs
> who can accurately install a set of upright damper levers.
I understand that this comment of yours can only be speculation, and that the
word "few" doesn't specify an exact number. So I don't know what few really
means to you. The dictionary definition certainly seems to imply not very
many.
Having attended numerous Piano Technicians Guild (PTG) seminars/conventions
over the years, and having associated with more than just a few technicians
during those times, I just can't agree with your assessment.
I do realize the damper system in an upright piano can be confusing to some
with limited experience or some who are not necessarily willing to venture
into some areas of piano work, but eventually the damper system falls into its
own category of understanding, just like learning to tune pianos.
After some practical experience in regulating upright damper systems,
installing a new set of damper levers is not something that proves to be that
large a leap to the next level in this area. It definitely requires
understanding of the upright damper system concept, plenty of patience, and
the knowledge that one can't just mount 'em, leave 'em, and expect 'em to
work.
However, there are easily more than a few PTG piano technician members that
can, and could, perform this type work, should it become necessary and/or
desired, and do it without trepidation.
There are really some amazingly, stupendous professional piano technicians on
planet earth. Their dedication and abilities far exceed many areas of piano
service that I only read about.
For any others who might be following this thread, a point of information
only: Replacing a complete set of upright damper levers it is not a common
job, and rarely occurs in the day to day piano service activity.
piano guy
I won't argue with you because I know it's futile, however your own
statement clarifies what I said in the first place.
===========================================================
> Replacing a complete set of upright damper levers is not a common
> job, and rarely occurs in the day to day piano service activity.
===========================================================
Practice makes perfect.
Gary
piano guy wrote in message <#BXV9khY$GA.273@cpmsnbbsa05>...
>Hi Gary,
>
>I guess you forgot that we were discussing *complete* restoration, not the
>reconditioning that you speak of.
>>Sorry Gary...a complete restoration on an upright is much more complicated
>than a grand. And my answer is not just an opinion...it's based on
>experience.
Your good self , my humble self ,or both of us are confusing definitions
of *restoration*,*reconditioning* and *rebuilding* methinks.Again let me
reiterate that I have never implied that *rebuilding* u/r's is a viable
economic proposition.But full restoration (inside & out) certainly is for a
select few which are still structurally sound.
This whole thing started because I disputed the notion of u/r actions
being more complicated and harder to work on compared to Grands. They are
not.(s'pose I should qualify that with those tedious I.M.O. letters)
I hope that I am not coming across as a smarty about this but I can't
let assertions pass of which I disagree.
Regards
Gary.
LFletc6143
>of *restoration*,*reconditioning* and *rebuilding* methinks.Again let me
>reiterate that I have never implied that *rebuilding* u/r's is a viable
>economic proposition.But full restoration (inside & out) certainly is for a
>select few which are still structurally sound.
This seems to be what's happened here at least in my opinion. It seems that you
view "rebuilding" as a higher level of reworking than a "full restoration". I
view it the other way around, and I think PG does, too. To me if you say you
"rebuilt" it, I consider that it probably has the original board/bridge, and
many of the original action parts are still there. But if you say you did a
"full restoration", I expect to see new board/bridges, pinblock, all new
action, new finish, etc., basically "remanufactured.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/Technician
"The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second rat that gets the cheese"
kam...@flash.net
> ...your own statement clarifies what I said in the first place.
> ===========================================================
> > Replacing a complete set of upright damper levers is not a common
> > job, and rarely occurs in the day to day piano service activity.
> ===========================================================
It's erroneous reasoning to believe this supports your belief:
> ...there are few piano techs
> who can accurately install a set of upright damper levers.
Just because a job occurs infrequently doesn't negate the skill level
of an individual to perform it when needed and/or desired. Just
because a concert level pianist doesn't play a certain piece of music
frequently, doesn't negate their ability to do so.
There comes a time when one knows their skills and abilities to do
what's necessary, when it's necessary, whether it's done frequently or
not. There are easily more than a few piano techs that *do* have the
skill level to replace an entire set of ordinary damper levers
properly. To quote a TV western character Walter Brennen used to play
a long time ago, "No brag, just fact."
> Practice makes perfect.
I'm not certain if you were saying this to support your position, but
the last I saw this maxim, it was modified, "Perfect practice makes
perfect." Still doesn't really apply to the matter at hand either way
you say it.
kam...@flash.net
> ...But if you say you did a
> "full restoration", I expect to see new board/bridges, pinblock, all new
> action, new finish, etc., basically "remanufactured.
These words have been kicked around way too long, and it probable won't change for
a long time, but here is my offering on the subject.
"Restoration" is not rebuilding, reconditioning, remanufacturing, or any other
terms one chooses to use, and it's not meant to imply replacement of parts,
whether you are speaking of the action, soundboard, bridges, pinblock, etc.
It is it's *own* thing..."to bring back to original condition." To grasp the
concept for now, think museum type pieces.
I attended a Piano Technicians Guild (PTG) convention course on the subject of
restoration at Toronto, Canada, 1987, which was given by Ed Swenson, RPT, of New
York, who is unquestionably one of the leading experts in North America when it
comes to restoration of older pianos for historical preservation. Two other names
come to mind at having a pretty terrific grasp of the concept of restoration.
They are Stephen Birkett of Canada and Anne Beetem of Virginia.
Following is a link to better help anyone truly interested in understanding these
terms used in piano work. There are two contributions from Guy Nichols, RPT, of
New Mexico and Ms. Beetem Once you link, use the search words -
informal/definitions
http://www.ptg.org/archive/pianotech/1997/v1997.n419, Dec 29 1997
Best to all,
Clark
This is important; as an integral part of the upright, the types of pinblock failures differ in uprights and grands. It follows that the types of repair (as I would count replacing a grand block) should differ as well - simply applying one logic to the other in a blanket comparison perhaps is not the most appropriate fix. Inlaying new material in a grand block likewise would count as rather an outlandish repair since, as you say, it is easier to remove it from the case.The pinblock is an integral part of an upright, [...] In most grands the block just lifts out clean after removing the plate. And even the blocks that are glued and dowelled are easier to remove than an upright pin block.
Umm, you said comparable restorations, right?Grand[...] damper levers[...] don't require all the accurate bending and spacing necessary on an upright. However, the damper wires on a grand can be tricky but there is no reason to replace them.
My point in the previous post in regards the Stieff upright,
was that as plentiful as they are, some uprights still are worth a vigilant restoration rather than the wholesale condemnation often that they get. Now, the Stieff may have a WN&G action with sostenuto, somewhat rare but which narrows the perceived gap between the upright and grand classes.How does a simple evaluation count [...]
As the market bears numerously priced rebuilt grands, so it can with uprights as well.
Clark
Tomorrow the world will be one upright poorer ;)
LFletc6143
>Tomorrow the world will be one upright poorer ;)
>
No, it will for sure be *4* uprights poorer. That's how many we're hauling to
the dump in the morning!
piano guy
Quite frankly I don't think we have a meeting of the minds, and as warped
as mine is I can't see that ever happening.
Why don't we discuss hysteresis?
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
Gary <Pri...@unreachable.com> wrote in message
news:864dbj$t5r$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au...
>
> piano guy wrote in message <#BXV9khY$GA.273@cpmsnbbsa05>...
> >Hi Gary,
> >
> >I guess you forgot that we were discussing *complete* restoration, not
the
> >reconditioning that you speak of.
> P.G.Also wrote:
> >>Sorry Gary...a complete restoration on an upright is much more
complicated
> >than a grand. And my answer is not just an opinion...it's based on
> >experience.
> Hi P.G.
> Your good self , my humble self ,or both of us are confusing
definitions
> of *restoration*,*reconditioning* and *rebuilding* methinks.Again let me
> reiterate that I have never implied that *rebuilding* u/r's is a viable
> economic proposition.But full restoration (inside & out) certainly is for
a
> select few which are still structurally sound.
piano guy
(think Lone Ranger)
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
LFletc6143 <lflet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000119195830...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
piano guy
In this thread I am clearly rat #1 thoink!!! These guys refuse to give a
sucker an even break. I guess I thought *complete* included *everything*.
--
******piano guy*******
I *should* be in a zoo
return email disabled
LFletc6143 <lflet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000119102016...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> >both of us are confusing definitions
> >of *restoration*,*reconditioning* and *rebuilding* methinks.Again let me
> >reiterate that I have never implied that *rebuilding* u/r's is a viable
> >economic proposition.But full restoration (inside & out) certainly is
for a
> >select few which are still structurally sound.
>
> This seems to be what's happened here at least in my opinion. It seems
that you
> view "rebuilding" as a higher level of reworking than a "full
restoration". I
> view it the other way around, and I think PG does, too. To me if you say
you
> "rebuilt" it, I consider that it probably has the original board/bridge,
and
> many of the original action parts are still there. But if you say you did
a
> "full restoration", I expect to see new board/bridges, pinblock, all new
> action, new finish, etc., basically "remanufactured.
>
>
LFletc6143
>
As far as I'm concerned, complete *does* mean *everything.
Clark
No, it will for sure be *4* uprights poorer. That's how many we're hauling to the dump in the morning!
Clark
LFletc6143
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
>
>
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>
>No, it will for sure be *4* uprights poorer. That's how many we're hauling to
>the dump in the morning!
>Hold the truck, Larry - I've got a couple grands you can bring, too!
>
>Clark
Pull the plate first. I you don't some of the "rebuilders" in my town will
probably go get them out of the dump and sell them.
ja...@millwoodart.com
> Friends -- My daughter has recently gotten a piano, labelled "Chas. M. Stieff,
> Baltimore, serial number 12136." Can anyone tell me anything about it or where
> I can find out? Thanks. Ted Lucas.
Where was the serial number on the piano?
