practise, practise, practise ...
miro szczeskiewicz
practise all very well. Myself included.
Maybe we could learn from each other. So guys, what do you think?
Michal.
Gary
I practice as I play.Simple as that.
Cheers.
Gary.
John Sowalsky
I'm just a beginner, but I find my big problem with practising is that
I'll spend too much time on the technical exercises, and not enough
time on the actual repertoire. Maybe it's because I'm an adult, and
thus, a little more critical of my own lack of technique. Anyways, I
do try to play for a minimum of an hour a day, sometimes more. I guess
the ideal way to do it would be to spend about 45 mins. on technique
and then about 45 mins. on repertoire... I wonder if it might help me
to take a break between the two...?
--
John Sowalsky
sowa...@erols.com
miro szczeskiewicz
> I'll spend too much time on the technical exercises, and not enough
> time on the actual repertoire. Maybe it's because I'm an adult, and
> thus, a little more critical of my own lack of technique. Anyways, I
> do try to play for a minimum of an hour a day, sometimes more. I guess
> the ideal way to do it would be to spend about 45 mins. on technique
> and then about 45 mins. on repertoire... I wonder if it might help me
> to take a break between the two...?
>
> --
> John Sowalsky
> sowa...@erols.com
Hi John,
Maybe start with the actual pieces and play a scale or two in between,
just to rest your mind for a little bit. I'm often envious of music
students who can sit in a practise room for over two hours, non-stop.
Its the going insane factor, rather than technical endurance.
I usually go for 30 min at a time, take a 15 break and go back.
My biggest problem is with the larger works, I might know the entire
piece in sections -- but when it comes time to play it together, I
usually forget the order they go.
There just must be a more efficient way, than this
Leibestraume #3, working at it since july. (The whole thing, but the
ending)
Waltz in Eb, Chopin, since august (I can play the entirety now)
First movement of Sonata Pastorale, LVB -- God know when. (dont ask, up
to the development section).
and its not that I find these pieces too demanding. Its just piecing
them together. Any advice there?
Michal
John Sowalsky
> My biggest problem is with the larger works, I might know the entire
> piece in sections -- but when it comes time to play it together, I
> usually forget the order they go.
>
> There just must be a more efficient way, than this
>
<snip>
> and its not that I find these pieces too demanding. Its just piecing
> them together. Any advice there?
I would try working specifically on the transition points between the
sections. Take the phrase before and the phrase after a transition and
practice through them several times. Then try to play the two sections in
their entirety. If you get stuck on the transition, stop and go back and
work on just the transition some more. Then try both sections all the way
through again... Hope this helps.
--
John Sowalsky
sowa...@erols.com
Jeff Harrison
<gedw...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
> I practice as I play.Simple as that.
Then you aren't practicing. Simple as that.
The two words mean, and imply, two completely different things. Practicing
is the act of working through something in an effort to improve it when
you finally do play it. If you stop and fix things, even if only
infrequently, you are practicing - albeit badly. If you just continue on,
even with mistakes occurring, you are playing. Not the same thing.
Jeff Harrison
Gary
Sorry that my reply was so curt.I was lamenting the fact that I don't have
much time these days for practice.
Best Regards.
Gary.
ckm...@sumter.net
miro szczeskiewicz <skie...@home.com> wrote:
> I find that a lot of beginners and seasoned pianists alike don't
> practise all very well. Myself included.
>
> Maybe we could learn from each other. So guys, what do you think?
Here is the URL to an very EXCELLENT site that deals with practice methods
for improving your skills and using your practice time wisely. It is written
by Dr. Brent Hugh of Western Missouri State College. It is worth reading for
ANYONE, just to refresh your approach to practice.
http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/piano-practice.html
This site is easily printable, but it is 17 pages long on my HP Laserjet.
Charles K. Moss
800+ Classical Music Web Site Links
http://www.sumter.net/~ckmoss/
THE ART MUSIC WEB RING
http://www.sumter.net/~ckmoss/artmusic/index.html
‰
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
miro szczeskiewicz
Hey, no problem. But just playing doesnt get you anywhere --
I just feel there must be a better way to do things,
Michal
miro szczeskiewicz
Thanks for the page.
Michal
Rasiel
Jeff Harrison wrote in message ...
I dunno that I agree completely. By playing a piece over and over,
especially one that you're having difficulty with, most of the time you get
better at it so in a very real sense you're practising and refining. I never
practice in the sense of pulling out Hanon or whatever, I just brave measure
by measure countless times over til the thing sounds right to my ears. Yet,
If I hadn't been 'practising' I would never learn anything, right?
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel
wojtek g.
>
> Here is the URL to an very EXCELLENT site that deals with practice methods
> for improving your skills and using your practice time wisely. It is written
> by Dr. Brent Hugh of Western Missouri State College. It is worth reading for
> ANYONE, just to refresh your approach to practice.
>
> http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/piano-practice.html
>
> This site is easily printable, but it is 17 pages long on my HP Laserjet.
>
14 pages after some editing. Thanks for mentioning this site. Really
excellent! For everybody!
Greetings
Wojtek
Jeff Harrison
<ras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I dunno that I agree completely. By playing a piece over and over,
> especially one that you're having difficulty with, most of the time you get
> better at it so in a very real sense you're practising and refining.
Well, in the sense you are "practicing by playing" it's not really
practicing in the generally agreed upon definition. I understand what
you're saying but if one considers it "practicing", it's not very
efficient practicing.
>I never
> practice in the sense of pulling out Hanon or whatever, I just brave measure
> by measure countless times over til the thing sounds right to my ears. Yet,
> If I hadn't been 'practising' I would never learn anything, right?
Not exactly sure what you mean by the "measure by measure" bit but if you
go over a piece a number of times - even if just from beginning to end -
you are practicing. I suppose intent works into the equation somewhat too.
Jeff Harrison
mcw...@hotmail.com
WHen do you actually move from "practice" mode to "playing" mode ?
As for myself, I tend to spend much time on "practice" mode, ie try to get
all difficult bits smoothened out before getting into a play-through from
beginning to the end.
That, however, usually consumes the most time of mine and tend to get stuck in
it until my wife complains about that I am not playing at all. 8-(((
Any tips or suggestions for breaking out of this never-ending loop I am in ?
But again, if you just play through from beginning to end and making mistakes
here and there that is just not music, is it ?
In article <jeffhrsn-171...@anx-arl1066.deltanet.com>,
jeff...@deltanet.com (Jeff Harrison) wrote:
> In article <01bdf9d1$557a4740$230e8aca@default>, "Gary"
> <gedw...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
> > I practice as I play.Simple as that.
>
> Then you aren't practicing. Simple as that.
>
> The two words mean, and imply, two completely different things. Practicing
> is the act of working through something in an effort to improve it when
> you finally do play it. If you stop and fix things, even if only
> infrequently, you are practicing - albeit badly. If you just continue on,
> even with mistakes occurring, you are playing. Not the same thing.
>
> Jeff Harrison
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Dfrankjazz
own practice style that you ENJOY. Try playing pieces you really like,
interspersing segments of the more tedious stuff (like scales,etc.), with
playing tunes you already now and enjoy playing.. Take breaks whenever you need
them, and keep going! Good luck!
Dave Frank, author,JOY OF IMPROV series, piano faculty, Berklee college of
Music
Leslie Polt
exercises necessary to the pieces I am learning. e.g. for the Bach first
2 part invention, the exercises are designed to develop independent hand
action suitable to counterpoint, such as contra-motion scales in several
keys, 2 against 1 scales, etc. Because time is limited, I put 15 min. into
exercises, and 45 min to 1 hr into the piece.
John Sowalsky wrote in message <3628BC90...@erols.com>...
>miro szczeskiewicz wrote:
>
>> I find that a lot of beginners and seasoned pianists alike don't
>> practise all very well. Myself included.
>>
>> Maybe we could learn from each other. So guys, what do you think?
>
Rasiel
Dfrankjazz wrote in message <19981018230228...@ng144.aol.com>...
>Michal, I find that practicing is an art, like playing. You need to find
your
>own practice style that you ENJOY. Try playing pieces you really like,
>interspersing segments of the more tedious stuff (like scales,etc.), with
>playing tunes you already now and enjoy playing.. Take breaks whenever you
need
>them, and keep going! Good luck!
As a player I really suck but I've found a small tip that makes a sort-of
practicing actually enjoyable. Whatever piece you like to play a lot and
well just embellish it with technical dificulties. For example, now that I
can play the Moonlight's first movement fairly decent I play the bass with
arpegiated chords or the melody in octaves or the whole thing as fast as I
can. I figure this develops my dexterity somewhat while still being
entertaining.
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel
Rasiel
mcw...@hotmail.com wrote in message <70e0j3$snp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>This poses a very interesting question, at least to myself personally.
>
>WHen do you actually move from "practice" mode to "playing" mode ?
>
>As for myself, I tend to spend much time on "practice" mode, ie try to get
>all difficult bits smoothened out before getting into a play-through from
>beginning to the end.
>
>That, however, usually consumes the most time of mine and tend to get stuck
in
>it until my wife complains about that I am not playing at all. 8-(((
>
>Any tips or suggestions for breaking out of this never-ending loop I am in
?
>
>But again, if you just play through from beginning to end and making
mistakes
>here and there that is just not music, is it ?
>
>
>>
>> Jeff Harrison
>>
Jeff, I'm currently learning to play Bach's 2nd prelude. I started out by
playing the first measure. Easy enough. play it again over and over. Went to
the 2nd measure, played it a few million times except this time I played it
along with the first measure. I'm up to measure 18. Naturally, the easiest
measures to play are the beginning ones because I've played them so many
times more than the later ones. This is generally agreed to be an awful way
of learning new works but for it's straight forward and an easy way to
memorize.
Also, if you play music from beginning to end and hit a few wrong notes no
biggie. Still music as long as you made the right notes musical.
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel
Alonzo Nesseler
Rasiel wrote:
Jeff Harrison wrote in message ...
I dunno that I agree completely. By playing a piece over and over,
especially one that you're having difficulty with, most of the time you get
better at it so in a very real sense you're practising and refining. I never
practice in the sense of pulling out Hanon or whatever, I just brave measure
by measure countless times over til the thing sounds right to my ears. Yet,
If I hadn't been 'practising' I would never learn anything, right?
I've been playing now for more than forty years, avoiding exercises and studies the whole time. In truth, one can play a lot of Schumann with little technique. But recently I decided that I would memorize and play Pathetique, Moonlight, Waldstein, and Appassionata. I started with Moonlight.
That's when I realized that Beethoven exposes imperfect technique brilliantly. The thumb crossunders on inside to outside movements are killers. He works the fourth fingers mercilessly. I especially note the many times the run is on the black keys, but the white key is always under the fourth, making a deep stretch necessary at lightening speed. And there is always the matter of trilling the fourth and fifth fingers at the interval of the ninth.
I also realized that I could try to play at this stuff forever and never do these things perfectly. Reluctantly, after years of avoidance, I pulled out Clementi. There is no way to avoid him at this point. I have to work those week fingers and the thumb cross-unders in an intense way until they are as strong as my other fingers. I don't see how anyone can avoid doing this kind of work if they want to do Beethoven beautifully and in perfect left-right synchronization.
After two months of at least thirty minutes of Clementi before practicing the fourth fingers are doing much better and the thumb cross-unders doing better as well.
An that's in addition to endless strengthening exercises for the lengthy octave tremolos.
Sometimes, guys, you gotta do it.
Lon
Alonzo Nesseler
First, to play something, you have to know it. You can't still be learning it or
you can't play it. A tautology, really. Practicing a piece is learning to play
it.
When you play, you feel the phrases, the development, the larger scope of the
piece. And, if you're like most pianists, you change it as you go. Discover
things about it. Change the emphasis. Bring out a middle melody more than usual.
Play with the piece, so to speak. Make it your own.
But you never stop. You never go over a tricky part. Playing is the same in the
privacy of the studio or on the concert stage. If it doesn't feel like that,
you're not really playing.
Practicing, on the other hand, concentrates on the parts that aren't right. That
you don't know. That you can't play. I've read many messages in this thread where
practicing is by the measure. Most pianists break it down by the phrase rather
than the measure, leading in with something, and, hopefully, existing with
something. The phrase is the unit.
There are lots of ways to practice. The days I hate most, on a new piece, is
playing it (yes, playing it, but not well) against the metronome. It is
remarkable what an eye opener than can be, exposing sections that need work.
Essential in Beethoven, it's even useful in Chopin. Particularly if you've been
working on some thing forever and have engrained speed variations as a result.
Ouch.
Usually I have sections I need to work on. Memory challenges I like to do first.
I have much trouble with parallel passages in different keys requiring different
fingerings. Damned Beethoven. He always does this. So does Chopin, and it's
worse.
Then I work on the thumb crossunders in the endless runs, the chromatic ones
being the easier. And the fourth fingers on the white keys.
I took a cue from Rachmaninoff and sometimes practice at very slow tempi, so slow
that the automatic nature of a well-learned section fades and some confusion sets
in. If I know a piece well at ultra slow tempo, I'll never screw it up a tempo.
Sometimes I have to iron out the improvements I may have made to a piece I've
been playing for years. Going back to the music is often a challenge since it has
been internalized for so long. But since I am actually a better pianist than I
was, I often find places I didn't do right or misread. Last week I started
correcting a piece I've played for thirty years. I missed a tie in Schumann. Made
the ending a lot better. I'll have to remember to work on it often because after
all that grooving it's difficult to change.
But that's what pianists do very, very well--they can break and remake habits
swiftly. Otherwise they could never get it right.
And, always with Beethoven, I have to work on the perfect synchronization of the
left and right hands. With the Romantics, one can get away with murder. With
Beethoven, one can get away with nothing. Especially in the wide arpeggios. My
theory is when all ten fingers are perfectly synchronized in Beethoven, you're
done. You can play him. Or anything else, for that matter.
So many ways to practice, so few to play. But, really, playing is where the fun
begins. For the first time, it's the piece you are working on, not the sections.
Trying to get the emotions moving properly and connectedly through the
development. Fighting them, sometimes, lest you lose all control. Turning it into
a performance. This is practice, too, but of a different sort. This is when a
book stops being a collection of words and paragraphs and becomes...a story.
I'm probably over intellectualizing this stuff, but I hope it has been helpful.
Chris Newman
miro szczeskiewicz wrote in message ...
>My biggest problem is with the larger works, I might know the entire
>piece in sections -- but when it comes time to play it together, I
>usually forget the order they go.
>
>There just must be a more efficient way, than this
>
me too, that's why I like learning variations - at least you get the
snippets complete and if you get them in the wrong order, well who cares?
:)
Try listening to recordings a lot, this sure gets the piece into aural
memory anyway.
Chris N
Jeff Harrison
<ras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jeff, I'm currently learning to play Bach's 2nd prelude. I started out by
> playing the first measure. Easy enough. play it again over and over. Went to
> the 2nd measure, played it a few million times except this time I played it
> along with the first measure. I'm up to measure 18. Naturally, the easiest
> measures to play are the beginning ones because I've played them so many
> times more than the later ones. This is generally agreed to be an awful way
> of learning new works but for it's straight forward and an easy way to
> memorize.
I disagree with those who think this is an awful way to practice. It
simply is a way to work out finger difficulties and it tends to promote
accuracy. It doesn't help one with getting the bigger picture, but that
will come very quickly if the technical foundation is strong. I realise
that it tends to make the first sections better than the rest, but that is
only a temporary effect. Personally, I have practice Bach works the same
way and found it to work just fine, so screw 'em! :)
One adjustment that you might try to make is to find more difficult
measures in the work and make a "side project" out of them. This will
ensure that those difficult bits will be every bit as good as the rest.
> Also, if you play music from beginning to end and hit a few wrong notes no
> biggie. Still music as long as you made the right notes musical.
Actually, it very important to get people to play and think this way. I
have to coax many of my students to "keep going" when they reach a certain
point in a piece's development. They seem to always be in "practice mode"
and haven't quite found a way to get into "play mode" easily. Very
important.
Jeff Harrison
Jeff Harrison
> All playing includes practicing,
While that's certainly true to a degree, I think you have to add that is
just is an *effective* way to practice as someone's statement seemed to
imply.
>but practicing doesn't always include playing.
Agreed.
Jeff Harrison
Rasiel
Jeff Harrison wrote in message ...
>Actually, it very important to get people to play and think this way. I
>have to coax many of my students to "keep going" when they reach a certain
>point in a piece's development. They seem to always be in "practice mode"
>and haven't quite found a way to get into "play mode" easily. Very
>important.
>
>Jeff Harrison
Jeff, having no teacher it makes things a bit harder for me. Any rules of
thumb for when you hit an absolute brick wall? For example, I can play (just
took it up on a challenge) the first two bars of the Revolutionary. Can play
the notes through and through but never, ever, can I play them, uh, how
shall I say? Allegro con Fuoco :-) Obviously playing these measures over
and over isn't getting the speed into my fingers.
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel/rasiel.html
Alex Blakemore
[regarding polishing each measure or phrase before adding another]
> ... it tends to make the first sections better than the rest, but that is
> only a temporary effect.
One remedy my teacher suggests to this is to work backwards at first,
polishing the last section, then a middle section etc to the beginning.
--
Alex Blakemore
al...@genoa.com NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted
Jeff Harrison
<al...@genoa.com> wrote:
> One remedy my teacher suggests to this is to work backwards at first,
> polishing the last section, then a middle section etc to the beginning.
That's just going to cause the same effect in reverse. Not really all that
good of an idea.
Better to break the work up into logical, musical sections and then work
from the most difficult to the least difficult.
Jeff Harrison
Jeff Harrison
<ras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jeff, having no teacher it makes things a bit harder for me. Any rules of
> thumb for when you hit an absolute brick wall? For example, I can play (just
> took it up on a challenge) the first two bars of the Revolutionary. Can play
> the notes through and through but never, ever, can I play them, uh, how
> shall I say? Allegro con Fuoco :-) Obviously playing these measures over
> and over isn't getting the speed into my fingers.
It's very likely due to what I sometimes call the "experiece effect"; you
may well not be able to play them to your liking for years - maybe even
never (especiallly since that work is so freakin' hard!). Muscle memory
takes a LOOOOOOONG time to develop and, even though you play those bars
over and over, it can't replace the abilities you will obtain only through
years of playing.
Research has also shown that there are significant difficulties to
becoming highly advanced after starting at a certain age (they claim it's
age 13). While that may be true to a degree, it shouldn't be construed as
meaning you can never be a truly good musician. Maybe just not an Arrau.
:)
The best thing to do is to try and find a teacher that can work within
your lifestyle/time-constraints. This will give you the needed direction
to proceed and work in a logical manner and point you to works that will
help you develop whatever needs to be developed. Don't forget - you can
still screw around with the other music on the side for fun!
Try it - you'll like it! (anyone remember *that* catch-phrase?)
Jeff Harrison
Glenn L
>
> In <jeffhrsn-201...@anx-arl1070.deltanet.com> Jeff Harrison wrote:
> [regarding polishing each measure or phrase before adding another]
> > ... it tends to make the first sections better than the rest, but that is
> > only a temporary effect.
>
> polishing the last section, then a middle section etc to the beginning.
>
I had a piano teacher that suggested memorizing this way. That way you
supposedly know the end better than the beginning so "If you can start
the piece, you can finish it". I think I successfully proved her wrong.
Glenn L
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> Alex Blakemore wrote:
> >
> > Jeff Harrison wrote:
> > [regarding polishing each measure or phrase before adding another]
> > > ... it tends to make the first sections better than the rest, but that is
> > > only a temporary effect.
> >
> > One remedy my teacher suggests to this is to work backwards at first,
> > polishing the last section, then a middle section etc to the beginning.
> >
> I had a piano teacher that suggested memorizing this way. That way you
> supposedly know the end better than the beginning so "If you can start
> the piece, you can finish it". I think I successfully proved her wrong.
>
> Glenn L
>
LOL! Geez, Glenn, that's two outstandingly funny posts this week! Keep 'em
coming!
Cork Van Den Handel
Glenn L
>
> Glenn wrote:
> > Alex Blakemore wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeff Harrison wrote:
> > > [regarding polishing each measure or phrase before adding another]
> > > > ... it tends to make the first sections better than the rest, but that is
> > > > only a temporary effect.
> > >
> > > One remedy my teacher suggests to this is to work backwards at first,
> > > polishing the last section, then a middle section etc to the beginning.
> > >
>
> > I had a piano teacher that suggested memorizing this way. That way you
> > supposedly know the end better than the beginning so "If you can start
> > the piece, you can finish it". I think I successfully proved her wrong.
> >
> > Glenn L
> >
>
> LOL! Geez, Glenn, that's two outstandingly funny posts this week! Keep 'em
> coming!
>
> Cork Van Den Handel
>
telling the truth (what's that about truth being funnier than fiction -
or is that stranger than fiction?). When I was in my early teens, My
piano teacher put on recitals once a year with all her students. Up
until my teens I had no problem playing in front of people or even doing
the competitions she put me in. Then CLICK it all turned off.
My last public performance (one of her recitals), after memorizing some
dumb song backwards, I got up to play it and half way through completely
lost it. It was an ugly seen in front of all those parents and I think
my teacher was really angry with me 'cause I was one her best students
playing real stuff not the kiddie songs. Anyway, I did prove her
wrong! I won - I think?
Glenn L
miro szczeskiewicz
> telling the truth (what's that about truth being funnier than fiction -
> or is that stranger than fiction?). When I was in my early teens, My
> piano teacher put on recitals once a year with all her students. Up
> until my teens I had no problem playing in front of people or even doing
> the competitions she put me in. Then CLICK it all turned off.
>
> My last public performance (one of her recitals), after memorizing some
> dumb song backwards, I got up to play it and half way through completely
> lost it. It was an ugly seen in front of all those parents and I think
> my teacher was really angry with me 'cause I was one her best students
> playing real stuff not the kiddie songs. Anyway, I did prove her
> wrong! I won - I think?
>
> Glenn L
Haha, Maybe you should call her up one fine evening and play the
song backwards. (Complete with subliminal messages).
In all seriousness, I couldnt play any of those recitals either. They
all had the air of 'look what my kid can do', and not the 'lets just go
out and play some tunes'. That and I felt like an advertisment campain
for my teacher for his teaching.
Oh, and I'd get pretty bemused listening to all those kiddie songs over
and over and over and over.
Sorry about my bad grammar,
Michal.
Rasiel
Not that I follow the advice personally but...
When I first heard about the benefits of starting from the end working to
the beginning the main argument was that the most difficult parts of a work
are near the end, usually because of technically difficult codas and such.
Ras
ras...@yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rasiel/rasiel.html
cv...@my-dejanews.com
>
> There's a joke in almost everything. Isn't there? Unfortunately, I was
> telling the truth (what's that about truth being funnier than fiction -
> or is that stranger than fiction?). When I was in my early teens, My
> piano teacher put on recitals once a year with all her students. Up
> until my teens I had no problem playing in front of people or even doing
> the competitions she put me in. Then CLICK it all turned off.
>
> My last public performance (one of her recitals), after memorizing some
> dumb song backwards, I got up to play it and half way through completely
> lost it. It was an ugly seen in front of all those parents and I think
> my teacher was really angry with me 'cause I was one her best students
> playing real stuff not the kiddie songs. Anyway, I did prove her
> wrong! I won - I think?
>
> Glenn L
>
I'm very interested in what others think of the value (or lack thereof?) of
recitals, and (if valuable) how frequently they should be scheduled. I did
not play in recitals when I learned piano as a child, and have NEVER been
comfortable playing for an audience. On the other hand, I was very involved
in singing at that time (through high school), and thought nothing of
performing solos in front of large audiences.
Was the difference related to the high frequency of vocal performances
eliminating stage fright, or is playing the piano so dramatically more
difficult than singing that the fear is of a much higher level?
Glenn L
>
> I'm very interested in what others think of the value (or lack thereof?) of
> recitals, and (if valuable) how frequently they should be scheduled. I did
> not play in recitals when I learned piano as a child, and have NEVER been
> comfortable playing for an audience. On the other hand, I was very involved
> in singing at that time (through high school), and thought nothing of
> performing solos in front of large audiences.
>
> Was the difference related to the high frequency of vocal performances
> eliminating stage fright, or is playing the piano so dramatically more
> difficult than singing that the fear is of a much higher level?
>
> Cork Van Den Handel
Hey Cork,
Despite my bad experience, I am glad I was put in the recitals and
competitions. Up until the stage fright set in I did very well
especially in the competitions. The decline in performances was gradual
though. At the time, I kept thinking it was because I had to sit
through the whole show until it was my turn. In the recitals, the best
(not trying to brag by any means we were all kids) went last. This
meant I had to sit and listen to every other kid play every song while I
had time to get nervous and just keep trying to keep the melody to the
songs I was to play in my head. As I typed in a previous post, as I
play I have the tune going in my head and sitting through an hour or so
of other songs really interfered. Who knows, maybe I just wasn't
prepared.
In any situation, other than playing the piano, I have no fear of
getting in front of crowds. I think for me, part of the problem is I
get self conscious when someone is standing behind me staring at my
hands. The other thing is that as a solo pianist, if you have a slip,
no matter how minor, it can throw you (me) off beyond repair and there
is no covering especially for someone like me who has no theory
background and can't improvise my way back on track. If your voice
cracks while singing it is over in a second and maybe they heard it
maybe they didn't. If your giving a speech and forget a line, no one
knows if you just keep talking even if you change thoughts. BUT, if
the music stops, the music stops! They are all staring at you.
I think that playing the piano is dramatically more difficult than
singing and definitely on a higher level.
Glenn
XyZortC
>recitals, and (if valuable) how frequently they should be scheduled.
Of course I'm biased, but I believe recitals do have value. Some of the
reasons or benefits --
1. Music is a gift from God; musical talent is a bonus gift. Gifts should be
shared.
2. The piano can be a lonely instrument. Public performances with fellow
students provide a bonding opportunity for promotion of self and encouraging
others.
3. After months of work toward perfecting a piece, the natural outcome is to
shout it to the world.
4. A great number of childhood endeavors include activities with an eye to the
future. Today's fly-away-fingers six-year-old may be tomorrow's Horowitz or
Cliburn or Rubenstein or Billy Joel or Ray Charles or Herbie Hancock.
5. Older students are heros to the younger students. At lessons the week
after every recital or care center performance or home gathering we have, at
least one of the younger students asks "some day can I play a song like Susie
did?"
6. Parents need a reason to crow. They spend over a thousand dollars a year
for lessons and books and instrument maintenance, countless hours of listening
(suffering in silence) to the same measure over and over and over and like to
have something to brag about to their friends (who are parents of tone-deaf
clods, of course).
7. Recitals are about the music - _and_ about poise, stage presence,
dignity, class, charm, determination, commitment, and other transferable
life-skills.
8. Private teachers have only two viable forms of advertising: word-of-mouth
and public display.
> I did
>not play in recitals when I learned piano as a child, and have NEVER been
>comfortable playing for an audience. On the other hand, I was very involved
>in singing at that time (through high school), and thought nothing of
>performing solos in front of large audiences.
>Was the difference related to the high frequency of vocal performances
>eliminating stage fright, or is playing the piano so dramatically more
>difficult than singing that the fear is of a much higher level?
>
>Cork Van Den Handel
Could be. Or could be -
- In singing you're not alone. At the very least, you have an accompanist on
stage.
- Everyone can sing. Of course, not everyone can sing extremely well, but
everyone can do it. Practically anywhere, practically from birth, and if
you're born with a great voice, it can even be done without a teacher. It's a
natural function. (No flames from singers, please. I'm only saying anyone can
_sing_. I'm not saying anyone can sing _beautifully_.) Not so with the piano.
- Singers can have memory lapse on-stage, but generally it's forgetting the
words, not the melody. The melody can go on without the correct words
(becoming "la la la" or "oooo" or repeating the first verse; or the bright
accompanist realizes what's happening and covers for the singer). Unless you
have been trained in the right use of theory and faking, a memory lapse at the
piano can mean sudden screaching silence.
- Or could just be you _knew_ you were a great singer and had not yet convinced
yourself of your greatness as a piano player.
Ceil
XyZortC
Just realized I didn't respond to "how frequently" part of your post.
We have two major recitals every year, a care center or retirement home
performance just about every month, and a gathering at my home every two
months. This works for us. Can't say if it's enough or too many for others.
Ceil
Bob Sutherland
Are your care center/retirement home performances in the same format
as a recital with all your students playing? Or just a select number
of them? My kids' Suzuki Violin group puts on concerts a few
times a year in similar locations, but, as they are playing violins &
cellos, they all play together.
I guess I'm wondering about the length of the program.
Bob Sutherland
--
Sutherland & Associates / rsu...@mixcom.com / 414-332-1153
Sun Certified Java Programmer
http://www.mixweb.com/SuAssoc/gfc.html
Glenn L
> game to find if my stage fright is permanent or if it will go away over time.
>
> Thanks for the response!
> Cork
>
Cork, I'd be curious for an update down the line on how you do and any
thing which may help control the nerves. You could just e-mail. The
last time I played for a group of people I was over someones house for
the 4th of July last year and I was shaking like a leaf but I made it
through it.
I found that playing the first page of Chopin's Funeral March kind of
lightens me and the situation up a little. I just don't understand why
people object so much to it. I think it is beautiful. Seriously.
Which reminds me, I have to put that back into my memory.
Glenn
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> Hey Cork,
>
> Despite my bad experience, I am glad I was put in the recitals and
> competitions. Up until the stage fright set in I did very well
>
> I think that playing the piano is dramatically more difficult than
> singing and definitely on a higher level.
>
> Glenn
>
Well, my instructor has informal "play-ins" for her adults so I'll test the
game to find if my stage fright is permanent or if it will go away over time.
Thanks for the response!
Cork
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
XyZortC
>somewhat more optional? Cork
>
Yes, the two major recitals are mandatory. Care centers and home gatherings
are sometimes optional, but when they serve as performance preparation for a
major recital, they are mandatory. To play in the formal spring recital, a
student must play in at least three of these practice performances - two of
them from memory. To play in the more casual fall recital where students have
the music on the piano, a student must attend at least one practice
performance.
Ceil
XyZortC
>Are your care center/retirement home performances in the same format
>as a recital with all your students playing? Or just a select number
>I guess I'm wondering about the length of the program.
>Bob Sutherland
Most care center performances have about 15 students each, with a mix of
ability from beginner to advanced. Programs generally run about an hour or
less. It would be torture for the residents (and me, sometimes!) to sit
through all 45 in one afternoon.
We split each of our two major recitals into two programs; even with an
intermission mid-way through each program, they are still long for younger
brothers and sisters.
Ceil
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> > and (if valuable) how frequently they should be scheduled.
>
> performance just about every month, and a gathering at my home every two
> months. This works for us. Can't say if it's enough or too many for others.
>
> Ceil
>
I assume attendance at the major recitals is mandatory, while the others are
somewhat more optional? Cork
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> - Or could just be you _knew_ you were a great singer and had not yet
convinced
> yourself of your greatness as a piano player.
>
> Ceil
>
Of course!!! I knew I could count on you to pinpoint the reason! <grin>
But thanks for your thoughts on recitals; I'll keep them in mind as I search
for a new instructor for our son. Cork
XyZortC
Students shouldn't be the only ones to play. I believe the teacher must also
perform at these events. It's probably one of the best examples of showing by
doing.
How many high school football games include the coach suited up and on the
playing field?
Ceil
cv...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Cork, I'd be curious for an update down the line on how you do and any
> thing which may help control the nerves. You could just e-mail. The
> last time I played for a group of people I was over someones house for
> the 4th of July last year and I was shaking like a leaf but I made it
> through it.
>
> I found that playing the first page of Chopin's Funeral March kind of
> lightens me and the situation up a little. I just don't understand why
> people object so much to it. I think it is beautiful. Seriously.
> Which reminds me, I have to put that back into my memory.
>
> Glenn
>
I'll do that. Recently, I was coerced into playing after a business dinner
party and led off with an old swing version of "Old Man River" that I
arranged in my mid-teens, 25 years ago. That settled me down enough to
convert the shakes to mild trembling, (;-)) and had the obvious benefit that
I could add or subtract embellishments without anyone (other than my wife)
knowing. I'm sure having one success immediately must help. Then I moved on
to more serious stuff. (Still, I forgot the middle section of the second
Gershwin Prelude (the cross-hands part), so I foreshortened the piece and
moved from the second statement into the end.)
I think a confidence-builder at the outset will be my first device.
cv...@my-dejanews.com
I must ask: do you suffer from stage fright at your recitals??? All the
pressure of having your students and their parents there listening?
pTooner
cv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I'm very interested in what others think of the value (or lack thereof?) of
> recitals, and (if valuable) how frequently they should be scheduled. I did
> not play in recitals when I learned piano as a child, and have NEVER been
> comfortable playing for an audience. On the other hand, I was very involved
> in singing at that time (through high school), and thought nothing of
> performing solos in front of large audiences.
>
> Was the difference related to the high frequency of vocal performances
> eliminating stage fright, or is playing the piano so dramatically more
> difficult than singing that the fear is of a much higher level?
>
> Cork Van Den Handel
>
>
Interesting thought! For what it is worth, I can play several other instruments
without a stage fright problem. Singing is just as bad as piano, though. I am
not sure whether it is because singing and piano you are on your own and with
most other instruments you have considerable back-up from the rest of the group?
Gerry
--
Art 2.0
Bob Sutherland
>
> One more thought on the value of recitals --
>
> Students shouldn't be the only ones to play. I believe the teacher must also
> perform at these events. It's probably one of the best examples of showing by
> doing.
>
I've had some discussion with my daughter's piano teacher (also mine
but that's beside the point) about the
value of her (the teacher) playing. She feels that she shouldn't
play. In her view, the recital is for the students. When I point
out the value of being a role model or example, she says that her
more advanced students perform that function. I think I disagree.
She is very good and a much better example that even her most advanced
students.
Bob Sutherland
Tom Shaw
mathematical power of the number of performers you are with e.g. it is
more than four times less traumatic with a duo, more than nine times
less traumatic with a trio, etc. etc.
TS
XyZortC
> When I point
>out the value of being a role model or example, she says that her
>more advanced students perform that function. I think I disagree. (snip)
And who provides the example for the older students?
I agree with your disagreement!
Ceil
XyZortC
>pressure of having your students and their parents there listening?
>
>Cork
No stage fright, although I sometimes suffer from stage _excitement_ -- by
the time I play (last) I'm so pleased with the students (whether they play
brilliantly or not) and so caught up in their excitement I might need a few
minutes extra alone before going on-stage to be able to capture the mood of the
piece from the beginning. This makes for an unplanned dramatic pause, so the
audience is probably thinking "what kind of prima dona does she think she is
anyway, making us wait this long? She'd better be damn good. I'm hungry and
have to go to the bathroom."
We - not just the students, but me too - take great pains with preparation and
know we've done everything possible to minimize the odds of having a
catastrophe on-stage, but I suppose having a personality that includes traits
like conceit and a love of being the center of attention doesn't hurt!
On the other hand, if _my_ teacher were suddenly raised from the dead and
joined the audience, it might be a whole different story.
Ceil
Glenn Mandelkern
only you'd never know it by simply looking at them. Why not?
They give the outward appearance of confidence, and may sound musically
correct. Inside, however, they are trembling in ways nobody else
could imagine. (And the reverse is also true -- some people don't know
at all what they're doing or saying, but give outward signs that fools the
rest of the audience. I've heard this admission from some people who
are asked to come up and say a few words. They give all the signs of
upright head, outward chest, proper breathing and vocabulary to get
a standing ovation from listeners who are impressed, only to say,
"I have no idea what I was talking about.")
One public performer who was afflicted by stagefright was Carly Simon.
You can read more about how she dealt with it in the book "Social Phobias."
Maybe too by reading this book you can get ideas as to how to deal
with your own mishaps regarding public recitals. One popular explanation
I've heard from some adults is that no matter how much they practice,
they still remember one very bad time in their childhood, either at
the piano or somewhere else. They had studied something very intensely,
then gave their own idea or interpretation about it. When they showed
such originality, they were corrected, and worst of all, in front of
a group. Maybe other children laughed. Maybe other adults gasped.
They therefore decided they'd never put themselves in a similar situation
ever again. However, that's usually not a conscious decision, it's just
that the pain has been buried deep, almost forgotten and denied
for simple survival. While sometimes these things can be uncovered
in therapy, simple awareness can many times help, esp. when one notices
a pattern of response to certain kinds of situations like recitals.
Another person I heard interviewed recently who suffers from stagefright
is Sammy Hagar. That was surprising! He said that he considers himself
to be a very shy person. In fact, that's what motivated him to become
a performer. He said when he is on stage, he moves around a lot since
that's his way of not getting caught up in his shyness. If the audience
is appreciative and helpful, he gets into his act more. I've heard this
too from other musicians, how the audience affects their playing too
depending on how critical or how supportive they are.
So you're definitely not alone! Moreover, it may also turn out that you
do not have this problem at any place else but recitals. Some people have
been noticed as being great public performers in some settings, yet in
others they're torn. It's possible to be shy in some settings but not
in others. Therefore, if you want to pursue solutions to this, you'd
like to know if it's a general shyness problem or only in specific times.
That's also why in other situations, people demand that the truly competent
should be able to perform
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern "Hee, hee, hee, hee!" -- Questor the Elf
gma...@netcom.com
San Jose, CA
Games, GUI's and Entertainment
1997 Computer Games Developers Conference Seminar Host: "OO is so good!"
Career Magazine Author, www.careermag.com: The Candidate is a Human Being
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> >I must ask: do you suffer from stage fright at your recitals??? All the
> >pressure of having your students and their parents there listening?
> >
> >Cork
>
> No stage fright, although I sometimes suffer from stage _excitement_
>
> On the other hand, if _my_ teacher were suddenly raised from the dead and
> joined the audience, it might be a whole different story.
>
> Ceil
>
I know that feeling well. I perform at my worst for my instructor, WITHOUT
FAIL. Cannot figure that one out for anything, because I tell myself I
should be at my most relaxed in that setting, seeking advice and help to
improve. Oh, well.
cv...@my-dejanews.com
> I have always found that stage fright is inversely proportional to some
> mathematical power of the number of performers you are with e.g. it is
> more than four times less traumatic with a duo, more than nine times
> less traumatic with a trio, etc. etc.
> TS
Tom, that idea makes a lot of sense. Add to that the technical demands of
the instrument and I think the two together explain much of the piano-related
stage fright.
It's a lot easier to sing a solo with a small orchestra behind you than with a
single piano accompaniment.
Cork Van Den Handel
Cc88m
In article <19981024225904...@ng77.aol.com>, xyz...@aol.com
(XyZortC) writes:
>Of course I'm biased, but I believe recitals do have value. Some of the
>reasons or benefits --
>
>1. Music is a gift from God; musical talent is a bonus gift. Gifts should be
>shared.
(etc, snipped)
You forgot the most important one! MOTIVATION!
NOTHING motivates students to practice as an oncoming recital!
C. C. Chang
Cc88m
In article <363131...@NOSPAM.bcpl.net>, Glenn L <gli...@NOSPAM.bcpl.net>
writes:
>Despite my bad experience, I am glad I was put in the recitals and
>competitions. Up until the stage fright set in I did very well
>especially in the competitions. The decline in performances was gradual
>though. At the time, I kept thinking it was because I had to sit
>through the whole show until it was my turn.
Following are my opinions on stage fright; in order to control it, you
must know some fundamental truths about this phenomenon:
(1) it happens to almost anybody, good pianist, or bad.
(2) it is sometimes totally debilitating, in which case you need
stronger medicine than described below.
(3) for most of us, it can be controlled to a surprising degree by
proper preparation routines leading up to the recital. Most good teachers
know most of the best routines, but a good description would take
longer than appropriate for a post. For example, to avoid blackouts,
you must play the piece very slowly at least once a day.
(4) in addition to these routines, you can also use props, such as using
the sheet music in front of you (even if you have the piece memorized)
as a psychological prop, and to help you get restarted in case you
black out completely.
(5) the best solution is, to learn to enjoy the performance.
(6) study the mechanism by which stage fright originates and grows;
its causes and effects.
C. C. Chang
Loki607
And when you give nine hours of your life A DAY to it, seven days a week, four
weeks a month, 12 months a year, and you cannot live without it, but you're not
good enough to do it, because God forgot the "bonus gift"... well, what then?
What then?
S.McCullough
Loki607
do find helpful-- assuming I get any choice in the matter-- is to start off
with a piece that's slow and easy, so I can get adjusted to being up for
scruitny. God bless Rachmaninoff for starting the Rach 3 simple!
S.McCullough
Cc88m
In article <19981101190926...@ng69.aol.com>, lok...@aol.com
(Loki607) writes:
>And when you give nine hours of your life A DAY to it, seven days a week,
>four
>weeks a month, 12 months a year, and you cannot live without it, but you're
>not
>good enough to do it, because God forgot the "bonus gift"... well, what then?
>
>What then?
Then you are obviously using the wrong practice methods. Don't worry,
you are not alone; join the club of thousands of piano students. This is
the greatest travesty in piano learning today. Give them the right teachers
or practice methods, and the entire world changes! It's do-able!!!!!!!!!!!
C. C. Chang
Juanitalee
>good enough to do it, because God forgot the "bonus gift"... well, what the?
I certainly hope that you are enjoying playing somewhere along in there.
I've never put that many hours into playing, never wanted to be the "Bonus"
player, I guess. I am so happy to sit down and play whenever.
And the folks at the Alzheimer center across the street are always happy to
have me play, too!
Chris Mear
Geez, you're not onto that already, are you, Steph?
I might as well give up now......
(By the way, it gets a little harder after the first two pages...)
<g>
Chris Mear.
Chris Mear
>I have always found that stage fright is inversely proportional to some
>mathematical power of the number of performers you are with e.g. it is
>more than four times less traumatic with a duo, more than nine times
>less traumatic with a trio, etc. etc.
>TS
Ah... that explains why I find playing in school orchestra turns me into a
mindless lump of pudding... <g>
(Or maybe it's the great music we always play... 8-) )
Chris Mear.