Q: values of used grands: kawai, samick
Sergei Semenov
I have been reviewing messages in this newsgroup over the past couple of
weeks and appreciate the knowledge base here. Like many of those before
me, I need some expert (or not) advise on used grand pianos.
I have had 10 years of lessons when I was young but have not played in
15+ years. I would like to be a serious amatuer but don't want a huge
financial investment. Based on our research thus far, we are expecting
to spend about $8K for a used grand piano. A professional pianist friend
of ours recommended Mason & Hamlin and other brands priced around $15K
which is 3 times what he *thinks* we can get them for (he must have
great connections!). We want something that physically looks nice and
not a turn of the century relic that also happens to sound brilliant.
Our friend also told us that Yamaha & Samick are good for nothing but
firewood. I don't want to necessarily use a professional pianist's
recommendation for my needs.
The following are what we are currently considering. All include tuning
& delivery.
- 1983 Kawai KG2D 5'10" Ebony finish $9,400
- 1983 Kawai GS30 6'1" Ebony finish $11,495
- 1995 Samick G185E 6'1" Ebony finish $7,950
The big questions are:
- Are these prices reasonable?
- Is it worth paying $2K more for the Kawai GS series and the extra
length?
- Is Samick really much less quality than Kawai? And Yamaha vs Kawai?
Are the korean pianos that less in quality or durability to justify the
big difference in price or is the price gap all name recognition?
- What are you getting for the extra price in Kawai vs Samick? And Kawai
GS vs KG?
- Is it de rigeur to bargain on pianos like cars (like my husband
thinks) or is it not done?
My understanding of the Kawai GS is that the design is "European
stringing" and better design/quality. For someone in my situation who
wants a piano to keep for life (don't want to trade-up later), is it
worth it to get the KG or would an amateur who doesn't have tons of
talent ever going to notice or give due service to the difference in
quality?
Thanks so much in advance,
Dori Amenta
Steve K.
SS> me, I need some expert (or not) advise on used grand pianos.
I was recently in a similar position (looking at used grands). I am
just a hobbyist who enjoys pianos, so take my comments in that light.
SS> to spend about $8K for a used grand piano. A professional pianist
SS> friend of ours recommended Mason & Hamlin and other brands priced
SS> around $15K
SS> Our friend also told us that Yamaha & Samick are good for nothing
SS> but firewood. I don't want to necessarily use a professional
SS> pianist's
Interesting that you mention M&H, Yamaha, and Samick. When I was
looking, I narrowed my choices down to used M&H, Yamaha, Steinway, and
a new Young Chang. YC is a similar price and market point to Samick,
and you might want to add that to your list of candidates as well. (I
ended up buying a wonderfully rebuilt 1926 M&H AA, btw). Here are some
things that occurred to me and I hope you might find the thoughts
useful in your search.
o First, particularly with used pianos, the condition of the
individual piano is probably more important than the brand,
especially if you want to buy one in playable condition and not have
to have it rebuilt. For instance, M&H is a much better brand than
YC, but a YC in good condition may be a much better instrument than a
neglected and abused M&H. I've seen some formerly top notch,
top-brand pianos destroyed due to neglect.
o Saying "Yamaha's are good for nothing but firewood" is silly.
Yamaha has a good reputation and builds some very high quality
pianos. Sure, there are junky Yamaha pianos out there, but this is
true of _every_ brand.
o YC (and Samick) are good values for the money. For the price of a
good quality used M&H or Steinway you can probably get a brand new
YC. I played a new one and found it quite nice, but also, the
piano's preparation makes all the difference in the world. I've also
played really crappy YCs. I don't think there's any huge reason to
avoid YC; the nice one I played was my 2nd choice, above some used
Steinways even. I'd be more nervous about a used YC than a new one,
since you wouldn't get the warrantee.
o Your friend said you can "get a M&H for $5000". That's probably
true. But I doubt you can get one in good condition for that price,
outside of the 3-sigma type of deal where somebody's grandmother is
selling one that she only drove to church on weekends. The price for
a _good_ one surely depends on your location, but it seemed to me
that for a model AA (6'2), $14k-$20k is more the ballpark than $5k.
I'd look _very_ carefully at a $5000 M&H to make sure you understand
what it's problems are and what it'd take to fix them. You might
find a once in a lifetime deal, but more likely you'll find a piano
with some big problems.
o No matter what you do, have a competent piano tech check out what
you end up choosing. He/she will be able to spot problems that you
might not.
o In the end, you need to find a piano that "speaks to you". Nobody
can tell you what that really means. Play as many as you possibly
can, and I don't mean for 30 seconds. It takes a while to get over
the initial novelty of a new piano and get a feel for what it's
really like. If a dealer won't let you play a piano for 15 minutes,
they're probably not worth doing business with. Playing as many
different ones as possible will help you to know what you personally
prefer. It's not a decision to be rushed.
SS> Are the korean pianos that less in quality or durability to justify
SS> the big difference in price or is the price gap all name
SS> recognition?
IMHO, some of each. This is very much just my own opinion, but I think
that the quality difference _used_ to be a lot bigger than it is now.
There were major probs with the ones imported to the usa in their
earlier years, but I think they've fixed a lot of the real serious
issues. There are still problems - for example, the brand new 6'10
model YC I played had a rattle when you played a particular set of
notes. Is this the biggest deal in the world? Probably not - new,
they have a good warrantee, and a reputable dealer will make sure to
fix that sort of thing up front.
SS> - Is it de rigeur to bargain on pianos like cars (like my husband
SS> thinks) or is it not done?
I think it is. After all your piano may cost as much as many cars.
SS> wants a piano to keep for life (don't want to trade-up later),
I don't have any real advice here, except to say that you might
discover down the road that you've learned more about your own
preferences and you might find you like something different than you do
today. I played for 10 yrs on a piano I knew I would someday sell to
get a "dream piano". IMHO, trying to find your "dream
piano(car/house/whatever)" all in one step is hard to do.
SS> worth it to get the KG or would an amateur who doesn't have tons of
SS> talent ever going to notice or give due service to the difference
SS> in quality?
Again, this is just my opinion. But I think "appreciating a good
piano" is not directly tied to playing ability. You don't have to be
an expert player to appreciate the tone and touch of a good piano. In
fact, you don't have to be able to play at all to tell the difference
between an excellent piano and a pile of crap.
On your brand choices, I may be biased since I just bought an M&H. But
if you find one of these in excellent condition (and make no mistake,
many are not!) I think it's one of the finest pianos in the world. A
friend of mine who's opinion on pianos I respect thinks the top 3 piano
brands in the world are Bosendorfer, Steinway, and Mason & Hamlin. But
_so_ much depends on the condition of the individual piano, that you
can't really say "M&H is better than YC". All you can compare is
individual pianos.
- steve
--
s...@NO.frii.SPAM.com [ remove capitalized spamblock to reply via email ]
See the NewsRog preview page at:
http://www.frii.com/~srk/ShadowWorks/Preview/NR.html
Dave Zappa
>
> All,
>
> I have been reviewing messages in this newsgroup over the past couple of
> weeks and appreciate the knowledge base here. Like many of those before
>
> 15+ years. I would like to be a serious amatuer but don't want a huge
> financial investment. Based on our research thus far, we are expecting
> to spend about $8K for a used grand piano. A professional pianist friend
> of ours recommended Mason & Hamlin and other brands priced around $15K
> which is 3 times what he *thinks* we can get them for (he must have
> great connections!). We want something that physically looks nice and
> not a turn of the century relic that also happens to sound brilliant.
> Our friend also told us that Yamaha & Samick are good for nothing but
> firewood. I don't want to necessarily use a professional pianist's
> recommendation for my needs.
First off, you are to be commended for recognizing that you won't be
getting a usable Mason & Hamlin for $8k despite what your friend says.
You are also to be commended for considering Japanese and Korean pianos
despite some fairly harsh critisism from your expert. Being an educated
consumer will land you a nice piano, provided you are patient.
>
> The following are what we are currently considering. All include tuning
> & delivery.
>
> - 1983 Kawai KG2D 5'10" Ebony finish $9,400
> - 1983 Kawai GS30 6'1" Ebony finish $11,495
> - 1995 Samick G185E 6'1" Ebony finish $7,950
>
> The big questions are:
> - Are these prices reasonable?
Without seeing the pianos, there is no way to firmly answer this
question. Price is dependent on many factors, condition, dealer
services, history, etc.. If these are not the so-called "grey market"
pianos I would say they are within the realm of reason.
> - Is it worth paying $2K more for the Kawai GS series and the extra
> length?
Yes
> - Is Samick really much less quality than Kawai? And Yamaha vs Kawai?
Yes, Samick is a step down from Kawai. Yamaha and Kawai are very
comparable instruments. You didn't mention you were considering Yamaha,
and as a Yamaha advocate I can only suggest you go look at a mid-80's G2
and C3 before making your choice.
> Are the korean pianos that less in quality or durability to justify the
> big difference in price or is the price gap all name recognition?
Quality and durability make up most of the difference. I'd also be
fibbing if I said name recognition had nothing to do with it.
> - What are you getting for the extra price in Kawai vs Samick? And Kawai
> GS vs KG?
Samick vs. Kawai you are getting a more durable piano, built with better
materials & better designs. KG vs. GS is a performance issue, much like
a G2 vs. a C3.
> - Is it de rigeur to bargain on pianos like cars (like my husband
> thinks) or is it not done?
99% of the dealers in the US have some "pad" in the initial asking
prices.
> My understanding of the Kawai GS is that the design is "European
> stringing" and better design/quality. For someone in my situation who
> wants a piano to keep for life (don't want to trade-up later), is it
> worth it to get the KG or would an amateur who doesn't have tons of
> talent ever going to notice or give due service to the difference in
> quality?
I'm not knowledgable enough about the differences in the KG vs. GS to
answer that intelligently. I can say that in the Yamaha G2/C3
comparison, both pianos have similar longevity capability, the
difference is more in how the piano performs.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
pTooner
"Steve K." wrote:
> "SS" == "Sergei Semenov" writes:
>
> SS> me, I need some expert (or not) advise on used grand pianos.
>
> I was recently in a similar position (looking at used grands). I am
> just a hobbyist who enjoys pianos, so take my comments in that light.
>
Steve, you may represent yourself as a hobbyist buy you just wrote a factual
and outstanding post. I will only add that I agree with pretty well
everything you said.
Gerry
Don
>All,
>
>I have been reviewing messages in this newsgroup over the past couple of
>weeks and appreciate the knowledge base here. Like many of those before
>me, I need some expert (or not) advise on used grand pianos.
>
>I have had 10 years of lessons when I was young but have not played in
>15+ years. I would like to be a serious amatuer but don't want a huge
>financial investment. Based on our research thus far, we are expecting
>to spend about $8K for a used grand piano. A professional pianist friend
>of ours recommended Mason & Hamlin and other brands priced around $15K
>which is 3 times what he *thinks* we can get them for (he must have
>great connections!). We want something that physically looks nice and
>not a turn of the century relic that also happens to sound brilliant.
>Our friend also told us that Yamaha & Samick are good for nothing but
>firewood.
Your friend must have been the Kawai dealer. The Yamaha and Samick
are two entirely different instruments...not even in the same class.
In short, forget the Samick.
>
>The following are what we are currently considering. All include tuning
>& delivery.
>
>- 1983 Kawai KG2D 5'10" Ebony finish $9,400
>- 1983 Kawai GS30 6'1" Ebony finish $11,495
>- 1995 Samick G185E 6'1" Ebony finish $7,950
>
>The big questions are:
>- Are these prices reasonable?
>- Is it worth paying $2K more for the Kawai GS series and the extra
>length?
For how many years will you keep this Kawai? It really isn't much
more money for such an investment.
>- Is Samick really much less quality than Kawai?
Yes!
>Are the korean pianos that less in quality or durability to justify the
>big difference in price
YES!
>- What are you getting for the extra price in Kawai vs Samick? And Kawai
>GS vs KG?
>- Is it de rigeur to bargain on pianos like cars (like my husband
>thinks) or is it not done?
>
Bargain with the guys!
>My understanding of the Kawai GS is that the design is "European
>stringing" and better design/quality. For someone in my situation who
>wants a piano to keep for life (don't want to trade-up later), is it
>worth it to get the KG or would an amateur who doesn't have tons of
>talent ever going to notice or give due service to the difference in
>quality?
>
1. Get the best you can NOW while it is affordable.
2. Forget the Samick
D*
--
Recently described as:
"piano-bar-church music director-conductor-funeral pianist."
------------------------------------------------------------
www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
Remembering Shadow
July 1984 - November 13, 1997
A Tribute To The Sweetest, Most Perfect Dog In Heaven
Crandall Chow
> - 1983 Kawai GS30 6'1" Ebony finish $11,495
I have a 1981 GS-30, and am very happy with it. Have had two
technicians and my piano teacher remark about its great bass. I paid
$8950 in the central Texas area at the beginning of the year. It
included one tuning and a five year warranty. Delivery was an extra
$75.
I also looked at a 1991 KG-2A for $8500 in excellent condition.
Hope that gives you an idea of pricing. By the way, I am parital Kawai
pianos, and doubt I would ever buy a Yamaha. But that's personal
preference on its touch and tone only. Yamaha makes quality pianos. Do
consider them (maybe a C-3?) before writing them off based on another
person's tastes. Best of luck!
Radu Focshaner
> In short, forget the Samick.
>
>
I bought my current car in 15 minutes. But then, I knew what I really want.
To buy a piano for my children it took me a month. I've seen a lot of
miserable moth eaten used pianos, then I decided to look for a new one and
since I live 100m from the YAMAHA dealer I entered the showroom. The manager
of the agency (a dealer of YAMAHA , SAMICK, YOUNG CHANG, PEARL RIVER) had a
sound policy : sell the customer a piano, no matter how - but close a deal. I
went to KAWAI and I saw a beautiful upright. They use to "donate" pianos to
contests or master classes and then , after a month they sell them with a
slight discount. When I returned to YAMAHA, the highly professional manager
said to me : "KAWAI's action is entirely made of plastic materials !"
(that's part of the disinformation warfare !). Since I was short of money at
the moment I finally bought a SAMICK . As the russian saying : save now a
copeika, pay later a rouble !. The piano tuner is now part of the family.
Keys got stuck (and still do), double strike is a common occurrence (and that
was not meant to be the "double echapament" of the grands) and in general the
sound is better when I use the "moderator" - otherwise it sounds like a
vintage cemballo. In my youth when I had an old german made piano I wasn't
aware of such malfunctions. Although the piano is in its warranty term, I
don't call for the dealer technicians as they usually don't do more than
spraying some lubricants to the action parts. Little I knew then that it
will be mostly me that will play the piano. I should have "waste" a few bucks
more to get a good YAMAHA and enjoy the piano more. (I would like to add that
in my country, I never met a salesperson who had some training or basic
understanding of what he was selling (not in the TV or Hifi Systems, not in
house appliancies, computers , etc. However they take much pride if they
s___w the customer. The same applies to the customers which are often
bargainig alot. When a deal is closed, both parts think that they s___ the
"opponent" and depart with a big smile.)
Perhaps there are some better SAMICKS but I will never know.
Doesn't everybody dream of a STEINWAY ?
Radu <ra...@writeme.com>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Don
It seems that the "plastic" argument works when:
1. It is presented in a negative tone
2. It is presented as a generalization and specifics are not
mentioned.
3. When the potential customer does not know anything about the
actions of a piano and "what is what" regarding the action.
4. When the potential customer knows nothing about ABS plastic.
Ya know, my Ford had plastic parts...and ran over 200,000 miles with
those plastic parts!!!
So what???
D*
Tom Croft
nice tone and a responsive action. Last week when our technician came
to tune our Yamaha P22 studio, we discussed grand pianos a bit, and he
said the exact same thing: a KG-2D is really a 6' piano in a smaller
case.
Tom
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:15:24 +1000, "Gary" <gedw...@hotkey.net.au>
wrote:
><snip>
>I believe that the KG 2D is the best
>value for money piano ever made.
><snip>
boyer/sheers
>
> Sergei Semenov wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I have been reviewing messages in this newsgroup over the past couple of
> > weeks and appreciate the knowledge base here. Like many of those before
> > me, I need some expert (or not) advise on used grand pianos.
> >
> > I have had 10 years of lessons when I was young but have not played in
> > 15+ years. I would like to be a serious amatuer but don't want a huge
> > financial investment. Based on our research thus far, we are expecting
> > to spend about $8K for a used grand piano. A professional pianist friend
> > of ours recommended Mason & Hamlin and other brands priced around $15K
> > which is 3 times what he *thinks* we can get them for (he must have
> > great connections!). We want something that physically looks nice and
> > not a turn of the century relic that also happens to sound brilliant.
> > Our friend also told us that Yamaha & Samick are good for nothing but
> > recommendation for my needs.
>
> First off, you are to be commended for recognizing that you won't be
> getting a usable Mason & Hamlin for $8k despite what your friend says.
> You are also to be commended for considering Japanese and Korean pianos
> despite some fairly harsh critisism from your expert. Being an educated
> consumer will land you a nice piano, provided you are patient.
>
> >
(Big snip)
To the original poster:
You CAN get a usable M & H for $8k, or maybe a lot less. Maybe not from
a dealer, so they don't want you to know that, of course. You'll have to
look long and hard and know what to look/listen for. Search the want
ads, auction announcements, etc. religiously, but don't expect one to be
found any time soon. However, I knew of four that were auctioned near
Pittsburgh, PA, USA, a few years ago within the same year. Haven't seen
one lately, though. (The one that wasn't usable required about $2-3k to
be usable. I bought it at auction for $900 about 7 years ago.)
B. Boyer
P.S. One of the most beautiful-sounding pianos I've ever played was a
Kawai concert grand. I would forget the Samick, though.
Gary
>> & delivery.
>>
>> - 1983 Kawai GS30 6'1" Ebony finish $11,495
The KG 2 is 5' 9" and is an ideal size for the average home.It has the
same string length and soundboard area as a 6' piano except for the lowest
four strings which are rarely used anyway.By the time Kawai had got to the
*D* series , they had perfected the art of Grand Pianofabrik. It's Yamaha
rival was 5'7" but the KG 2D was really A 6' piano in a smaller case. Also
the KG 2D has a more "European" sound.I believe that the KG 2D is the best
value for money piano ever made.
which will produce a *brighter* tone.The action is a dream and reminds me of
those wonderfully responsive Bechstein actions of the 20's.
Two of the best from Kawai but of course , being s/h , get them checked
out.
l...@epix.net
"Steve K." <s...@NO.frii.SPAM.com> wrote:
(much very good advice snipped)
> o In the end, you need to find a piano that "speaks to you". Nobody
> can tell you what that really means. Play as many as you possibly
> can, and I don't mean for 30 seconds. It takes a while to get over
> the initial novelty of a new piano and get a feel for what it's
> really like. If a dealer won't let you play a piano for 15 minutes,
> they're probably not worth doing business with. Playing as many
> different ones as possible will help you to know what you personally
> prefer. It's not a decision to be rushed.
>
(and still more snipped)
I like the above paragraph. I think this is the best advice you can get.
$8,000 is a rather small budget for a good, medium-to-full sized grand but it
can probably be done if you're patient. A while back, I tried to start a
thread on getting the best piano on a budget and got only one reply (people
like to shoot their mouths off here, but are often strangely silent when a
really useful topic comes up). Anyway, I'll try a search and see if I can dig
it up. . .
Good luck,
George Gilliland
Amateur Classical Pianist,
Piano Enthusiast
pv...@my-dejanews.com
conductor making recordings with various performers including John Williams
the guitarist, Celine Dion and Goldie Hawn. Anyway, the grand piano in the
recording studio is a Samick. I thought that was interesting, may be they
don't record classical works?
Phi
In article <7fj9ii$sbf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Radu Focshaner <ra...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> > In short, forget the Samick.
> >
> > 2. Forget the Samick
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> Perhaps there are some better SAMICKS but I will never know.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Bruce Meglino
the smaller sizes? That is, I don't think that there's a lot of difference
between brands in the 9' piano range. In fact, I think a concert grand Yamaha
is more expensive than a concert grand Steinway.
Bruce
In article <7fmfua$nqf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
pv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hi all, I'm sitting here watching "Bravo Profile" on TV, it's about some
> conductor making recordings with various performers including John Williams
> the guitarist, Celine Dion and Goldie Hawn. Anyway, the grand piano in
the
> recording studio is a Samick. I thought that was interesting, may be they
> don't record classical works?
>
> Phi
>
> > <snip>
pTooner
Bruce Meglino wrote:
> Is it just my ear or is the differences between piano brands much greater in
> the smaller sizes? That is, I don't think that there's a lot of difference
> between brands in the 9' piano range. In fact, I think a concert grand Yamaha
> is more expensive than a concert grand Steinway.
>
> Bruce
I believe you are absolutely correct. In fact, I believe that all of the concert
pianos are hand built using basically the same methods in order to achieve the same
ends. It is for this reason that those pianos have no more to do with the home type
pianos than the car that Jeff Gordon drives on the racetrack has in common with a
chevolet that you can buy at your local dealer.
Gerry
Don
>Hi all, I'm sitting here watching "Bravo Profile" on TV, it's about some
>conductor making recordings with various performers including John Williams
>the guitarist, Celine Dion and Goldie Hawn. Anyway, the grand piano in the
>recording studio is a Samick. I thought that was interesting, may be they
>don't record classical works?
>
>Phi
>
Maybe the studio owner's brother-in-law was a Samick dealer?!?
Don
>Is it just my ear or is the differences between piano brands much greater in
>the smaller sizes? That is, I don't think that there's a lot of difference
>between brands in the 9' piano range. In fact, I think a concert grand Yamaha
>is more expensive than a concert grand Steinway.
>
>Bruce
>
I would always prefer a 9' steinway or Baldwin. I have never played a
9' japanese piano which could come close in overall tone quality and
richness.
Of course, if I were raised in Japan, my "ear" might prefer the sound
of a 9' Japanese over the two American pianos.
David C. Brown
<9129F93672C393C8.32CCC50C...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
calldo...@airmail.net (Don) wrote:
> pv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >Hi all, I'm sitting here watching "Bravo Profile" on TV, it's about some
> >conductor making recordings with various performers including John Williams
> >the guitarist, Celine Dion and Goldie Hawn. Anyway, the grand piano in the
> >recording studio is a Samick. I thought that was interesting, may be they
> >don't record classical works?
> >
> >Phi
> >
> Maybe the studio owner's brother-in-law was a Samick dealer?!?
>
> D*
>
>
> Recently described as:
>
> "piano-bar-church music director-conductor-funeral pianist."
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
>
> Remembering Shadow
> July 1984 - November 13, 1997
>
> A Tribute To The Sweetest, Most Perfect Dog In Heaven
Hello all-
I have tuned this piano. It is in a studio here in Austin and is an SG
-225 Samick. The studio is mainly used for pop recording, so the cost and
upkeep of a concert grand is probably not necessary for their needs. I
think it is wise when people match the cost and tone of an instrument to
their needs.
Regards
pv...@my-dejanews.com
Are you sure you're not related to the studio owner or his brother-in-law?
Phi
<snip>
> > >the guitarist, Celine Dion and Goldie Hawn. Anyway, the grand piano in
the recording studio is a Samick. I thought that was interesting, may be they
> > >don't record classical works?
> > >
> > >Phi
> > >
> > Maybe the studio owner's brother-in-law was a Samick dealer?!?
> >
> > D*
> >
<snip>
> Hello all-
>
> I have tuned this piano. It is in a studio here in Austin and is an SG
> -225 Samick. The studio is mainly used for pop recording, so the cost and
> upkeep of a concert grand is probably not necessary for their needs. I
> think it is wise when people match the cost and tone of an instrument to
> their needs.
>
> Regards
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
David C. Brown
No, I am not related to anyone at this studio. I guess I'm not sure why
you would think I was from my reply. Perhaps you could enlighten me.Thanks
for your help.
David
In article <7fo7l9$blt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hi David,
> Are you sure you're not related to the studio owner or his brother-in-law?
> > Hello all-
> >
> > I have tuned this piano. It is in a studio here in Austin and is an SG
> > -225 Samick. The studio is mainly used for pop recording, so the cost and
> > upkeep of a concert grand is probably not necessary for their needs. I
> > think it is wise when people match the cost and tone of an instrument to
> > their needs.
> >
> > Regards
> >
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
David C.Brown RPT
Staff Piano Technician
School of Music
The University of Texas at Austin
pTooner
"David C. Brown" wrote:
> Hello again-
>
> No, I am not related to anyone at this studio. I guess I'm not sure why
> you would think I was from my reply. Perhaps you could enlighten me.Thanks
> for your help.
>
> David
>
Hi David, I can enlighten you. There is a very small but extremely vocal few
regulars on this newsgroup who have an anti-korean fixation. I occasionally try
to keep things on an even keel, but not always. If you say anything pro Samick
or Young Chang you can expect a rabid reaction. Oddly enough, it you mention one
of the PSO's from China or the Soviet Union you will get much less violent a
reaction. I have no idea why this is, but there appears to be no logic to it.
There are people here who will tell you (sincerely) that one of those tiny little
Yamaha verticals is inherently better than a full sized korean grand. I have no
explanation, perhaps it's like some of the country boys who will insist that
Johnson makes better outboard motors than Evinrude. (In case you don't know,
they are absolutely identical motors until the final coat of paint determines
which brand they will be.)
Gerry
Don
>
>
>"David C. Brown" wrote:
>
>> Hello again-
>>
>> No, I am not related to anyone at this studio. I guess I'm not sure why
>> you would think I was from my reply. Perhaps you could enlighten me.Thanks
>> for your help.
>>
>> David
>>
>
>Hi David, I can enlighten you. There is a very small but extremely vocal few
>regulars on this newsgroup who have an anti-korean fixation. I occasionally try
>to keep things on an even keel, but not always.
Thank you for your more-than-a-little-condescending opinion of some of
the readers of this newsgroup. It is good of you to lower yourself
and help us poor, little, blubbering, idiots with our mis-guided
opinions of some instruments.
Ya know, all of us come from different life experiences. Our opinions
and belief systems are shaped over decades from of our past upbringing
and experiences.
I make my statements coming from my background as a vocational
musician of over 30 years performing in virtually every kind of venue
and on pianos of every kind, age, brand, shape and country-of-origin.
I do not make statements on most instruments. However, when I have
had consistent experiences with certain instruments, I feel like I can
share those experiences.
Those experiences will probably be different from the poster...but
information was requested.
You, Gerry, and others also have your history which shapes your
opinions. But the original poster asked for feedback and personal
thoughts and opinions on these instruments.
Last I knew, this was an open forum. It should be understood by the
original poster that they will have feedback and opinions from readers
based on the various backgrounds of the readers.
You will not always agree with me because your experiences are
different from mine. But that doesn't mean that YOUR comments are any
better than mine or MY comments are any better than yours. We bring
different experiences to the table.
My "anti-korean fixation" is the result of years of experience playing
Korean pianos which CONSISTANTLY SUCK!!! If you had the same
experience with Korean pianos, you would have the same opinion as I.
Sorry you think it is a "fixation!"
RJsmit1
>If you say anything pro Samick
>or Young Chang you can expect a rabid reaction. Oddly enough, it you mention
>one of the PSO's from China or the Soviet >Union you will get much less
violent a
>reaction. I have no idea why this is, but >there appears to be no logic to
it.
>There are people here who will tell you >(sincerely) that one of those tiny
little
>Yamaha verticals is inherently better than a >full sized korean grand.
As a non-piano professional, who has lurked and occassionally posted to this NG
over the past couple of years, I might serve as a reasonable barometer of how
some of the advice given on this subject is playing with us 'amateurs'. My
sense of the general reaction by participants on this NG to Korean pianos is
that they are generally not as good as Japanese pianos, but judge it on a model
by model basis. On the other hand, I don't remember hearing very much positive
about Chinese pianos. The other thing I have learned from this NG is that this
business is not standing still and that one should rethink his/her
predispositions from time to time with the benefit of fresh evidence. I believe
that the manufacturers are responding to an increasingly competitive
marketplace and they are trying to put out better products. An example of that
appears to be the Petrof. I have heard some very good comments recently about
these pianos, but some folks still soundly thrash them (partly on the basis of
dealer preparation, etc. etc.) Another interesting phenomenon is Steinway-
opinions range from poor to very complimentary on new production and some folks
feel that the old ones 'walk on water'.
>I have no explanation, perhaps it's like some >of the country boys who will
insist that
>Johnson makes better outboard motors than >Evinrude.
And finally, we Texans prefer Johnsons to Evinrudes- perhaps it's because
Johnson is easier to spell. (And that's definately why I got an Eko chain
saw...)
Randall Smith
Houston, Texas
Radu Focshaner
pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
> Oddly enough, it you mention one of the PSO's from China or the Soviet Union
you will get much less violent a reaction.
>
About the Soviet Union pianos - I can be very "vocal" ! Since the great
immigration of russian families, the country has been flooded with russian
pianos. My wife's family brought 3 of them for sale. It was a common belief
in the S.U. that there is here a very demanding market. Well , I cannot blaim
them, for the former Soviet Union had , I think, the greatest number of piano
teachers , every one of them fully booked. Also, their piano industry had no
competition and they produced them as they were tractors : sturdy and uggly,
warranteed to last a life time , in and above the water. Our local
conservatory (all teachers russians) has only two YAMAHA pianos, all others
are soviet ones. The leader teacher,though, got an YOUNG CHANG. In short
those russian pianos are terrible and I would not shed a tear if they were
re-shipped to the S.U. in small parcels as Frank Weston once suggested.
Radu <ra...@writeme.com>
pv...@my-dejanews.com
It was merely an attempt at humor, carrying on from a previous poster who
responded to my post saying may be the studio owner's brother-in-law is a
Samick dealer. I'm sorry if you didn't find it amusing.
And hey Gerry, take it easy. I don't remember ever attacking Korean-made
pianos. I was the one pointing out that a professional recording studio was
using a Samick, and perhaps they found it doing the job perfectly well.
For the records, I don't have an opinion about Samick, because I don't know
much about it. I have played some good Young Changs, and some not so good.
I have also played some good Yamahas, and some not so good. The point being
it's perhaps not wise to make sweeping generalities or stereo-type.
I bought a violin once, and spent many hours talking to the German master
violin-maker who owns and runs the shop. There were many good and expensive
Chinese and Korean violins. He said the problem is that there are so many
cheap and poor quality ones as well which are nothing but firewood, and they
ruin general public opinion, making it hard to sell the good ones. I ended
up buying a Tchekoslovakian one with a really sweet voice, and really could
not justify buying a better but also more expensive one, Korean, Chinese,
German or Italian. The best one I had was an old, old German-made, but I
digress.
Nevertheless, I'm always humble when it comes to your superior knowledge.
I wonder if I touched a nerve? Now if you want to talk about French
pianos...never mind.
Phi
In article <3721C49D...@geddings.net>,
pTooner <ge...@geddings.net> wrote:
>
>
> "David C. Brown" wrote:
>
> > Hello again-
> >
> > No, I am not related to anyone at this studio. I guess I'm not sure why
> > you would think I was from my reply. Perhaps you could enlighten me.Thanks
> > for your help.
> >
> > David
> >
>
> Hi David, I can enlighten you. There is a very small but extremely vocal few
> regulars on this newsgroup who have an anti-korean fixation. I occasionally
try to keep things on an even keel, but not always. If you say anything pro
Samick or Young Chang you can expect a rabid reaction. Oddly enough, it you
mention one of the PSO's from China or the Soviet Union you will get much
less violent a reaction. I have no idea why this is, but there appears to
be no logic to it.
> There are people here who will tell you (sincerely) that one of those tiny
little Yamaha verticals is inherently better than a full sized korean grand.
I have no explanation, perhaps it's like some of the country boys who will
insist that Johnson makes better outboard motors than Evinrude. (In case
you don't know, they are absolutely identical motors until the final coat of
paint determines which brand they will be.)
>
> Gerry
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
DeanMay
>Korean pianos which CONSISTANTLY SUCK!!! If you had the same
>experience with Korean pianos, you would have the same opinion as I.
Well, Don, as long as you include paragraphs as above in your opinions then the
rest of us will be able to accurately assess the value of your input.
Dean May
Terre Haute, IN
EBONY & IVORY Piano Rebuilders
===================================
Will a Man rob God? -Malachi, Hebrew prophet
DeanMay
>Johnson is easier to spell. (And that's definately why I got an Eko chain
>saw...)
ROFLOL!
pTooner
pv...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> And hey Gerry, take it easy. I don't remember ever attacking Korean-made
> pianos. I was the one pointing out that a professional recording studio was
> using a Samick, and perhaps they found it doing the job perfectly well.
>
Apparently my post was less than clear. I believe you said something as to would
someone enlighten you as to why you should draw criticism for mentioning that a
korean piano was used in a recording studio. I was simply trying to enlighten you
as to why that reaction comes from this group, nothing more.
Gerry
pTooner
Don wrote:
> >Hi David, I can enlighten you. There is a very small but extremely vocal few
> >regulars on this newsgroup who have an anti-korean fixation. I occasionally try
> >to keep things on an even keel, but not always.
>
> Thank you for your more-than-a-little-condescending opinion of some of
> the readers of this newsgroup. It is good of you to lower yourself
> and help us poor, little, blubbering, idiots with our mis-guided
> opinions of some instruments.
I don't see anything condescending about the remark you quote. As to the "poor
little blubbering idiots," I have no idea about your personal life, but I find that
on all other subjects your remarks indicate an insightful and open mind. It is only
on the subject of Korean pianos that you have this fixation. (So far as I know) Now
I don't think they're God's gift to the unwashed masses, but neither do I believe
that only those who can afford Steinway's should play piano.
>
>
> Ya know, all of us come from different life experiences. Our opinions
> and belief systems are shaped over decades from of our past upbringing
> and experiences.
>
> I make my statements coming from my background as a vocational
> musician of over 30 years performing in virtually every kind of venue
> and on pianos of every kind, age, brand, shape and country-of-origin.
> I do not make statements on most instruments. However, when I have
> had consistent experiences with certain instruments, I feel like I can
> share those experiences.
>
> Those experiences will probably be different from the poster...but
> information was requested.
Quite true, did you really believe that the studio owner's brother-in-law was a
Samick salesman?
>
>
> You, Gerry, and others also have your history which shapes your
> opinions. But the original poster asked for feedback and personal
> thoughts and opinions on these instruments.
>
> Last I knew, this was an open forum. It should be understood by the
> original poster that they will have feedback and opinions from readers
> based on the various backgrounds of the readers.
>
> You will not always agree with me because your experiences are
> different from mine. But that doesn't mean that YOUR comments are any
> better than mine or MY comments are any better than yours. We bring
> different experiences to the table.
>
> My "anti-korean fixation" is the result of years of experience playing
> Korean pianos which CONSISTANTLY SUCK!!! If you had the same
> experience with Korean pianos, you would have the same opinion as I.
>
> Sorry you think it is a "fixation!"
>
> D*
>
Our life experiences can't be too awfully different because we agree on the majority
of muic related issues. Perhaps I can illustrate the difference in this way;
Yesterday I sold (at cost) a Winter spinet to a young lady with 5 children. All of
them were aspiring musicians so far as she was concerned. Now I can assure you that
the spinet was no better than a bottom end modern korean console. I suggested as
much to her, but she had some major financial constraints and would consider nothing
larger due to the size of the room. I have never understood what room size had to do
with piano height, but that's another story. Anyway, because this woman has a cheap
spinet which is in tune and regulation and all the keys work appropriately 5 possible
future pianists will have a chance. I feel quite certain that if cheap pianos had
not been available this would not have happened, and in my opinion that would be the
ultimate tragedy.
Gerry
Don
>>My "anti-korean fixation" is the result of years of experience playing
>>Korean pianos which CONSISTANTLY SUCK!!! If you had the same
>>experience with Korean pianos, you would have the same opinion as I.
>
>Well, Don, as long as you include paragraphs as above in your opinions then the
>rest of us will be able to accurately assess the value of your input.
>
>
Dean, are you trying to impress us with the fact that you can slam an
insult and make yourself feel superior?
Then let me clarify it for you. The Korean pianos on which I have
performed have had constant problems with the key action. The action
was sticky, keys refused to "return to the upright position." These
problems were consistent from Korean piano to Korean piano.
The Korean pianos, in general, also seemed to be less stable in the
area of tuning. They went "out of tune" more quickly than other
pianos and under conditions which would not affect other pianos as
soon or as strongly.
I would like to blame it on the lack of skills of the technician as
some on this newsgroup have suggested. The problem with that is that
there were several technicians from various music dealers, none, of
whom, could resolve the problems with these Korean pianos.
One of the technicians was my personal tech whom I had known and used
for around 10 years at the time, tuning well-worn Baldwins and Yamahas
at the Fairmont Hotel in Dallas.
So...did I express myself in a way that would help you understand?
D*
>Dean May
>Terre Haute, IN
>EBONY & IVORY Piano Rebuilders
>===================================
>Will a Man rob God? -Malachi, Hebrew prophet
Recently described as:
Timothy A. Martin
I have to ask that age-old question:
Is it genetic; or is it the environment?
Were the Korean pianos that had these
problems in the same physical environment
as other instruments not exhibiting the same
problems? Korean pianos seem to be commonly
found in churches, for example. Churches
typically turn on the air conditioning on
Sunday morning and leave it off the rest of the
week. Such conditions invite tuning instability
and action problems due to both temperature
and humidity fluxuations.
At any rate, my personal experience as well
as the words spoken in this list by others would
contest the statement that all Korean pianos
are prone to these stability problems.
Maybe whoever played on the Korean pianos
before you played on them had a problem
with perspiration.
On another note, this newsgroup seems to have
a tendancy to lean towards bitter comments lately.
I do hope that folks would not somehow feel the
need to be more rude to others just because they're
not looking at them face-to-face. Maybe I'll just
stay off this list for a while anyhow. It sounds like
that might make some folks happy. I'll see what
I can do to contribute to global happiness...
-- Tim
DeanMay
>>>Korean pianos which CONSISTANTLY SUCK!!! If you had the same
>>>experience with Korean pianos, you would have the same opinion as I.
>>
>>Well, Don, as long as you include paragraphs as above in your opinions then
the
>>rest of us will be able to accurately assess the value of your input.
>>
>Dean, are you trying to impress us with the fact that you can slam an
>insult and make yourself feel superior?
Actually, Don, I was trying to show how silly you make your entire argument
when you include such a paragraph. It destroys all your credibility and makes
anything else you say equally silly.
>
>Then let me clarify it for you. The Korean pianos on which I have
>performed have had constant problems with the key action. The action
>was sticky, keys refused to "return to the upright position." These
>problems were consistent from Korean piano to Korean piano.
You say Korean pianos, lumping Samick and Young Chang in the same category.
They don't belong together. An excellent prep job on a Young Chang can make it
a contender with any other piano. Unfortunately, most Young Chang dealers won't
make such an invesment and will sell them right out of the box. Such a prep job
on a Samick still only produces a mediocre piano. Speaking from my own
experience, of course.
In all fairness, Young Chang does have a problem with sticky hammer centers
which will cause the symptom you are describing. It usually responds very well
to treating the hammer centers with protek; sometimes the repinning one or two
hammers is necessary. After that the problem goes away. Any decent tech should
be able to solve that problem.
>
>The Korean pianos, in general, also seemed to be less stable in the
>area of tuning. They went "out of tune" more quickly than other
>pianos and under conditions which would not affect other pianos as
>soon or as strongly.
I've tuned a Young Chang G185 (6'1"), seen it moved to different facilities on
a skid 4 times in 6 weeks and it was still in very decent tune afterwards.
>
>I would like to blame it on the lack of skills of the technician as
>some on this newsgroup have suggested. The problem with that is that
>there were several technicians from various music dealers, none, of
>whom, could resolve the problems with these Korean pianos.
What Korean pianos- Samick or Young Chang- and how large is your sample? What
kind of conditions and care were they subjected to?
>
>One of the technicians was my personal tech whom I had known and used
>for around 10 years at the time, tuning well-worn Baldwins and Yamahas
>at the Fairmont Hotel in Dallas.
Before I got in the business I had a tech who was an excellent tuner but would
not have been able to fix the problem I discussed.
>
>So...did I express myself in a way that would help you understand?
Indeed, no silliness in this posting. My condolences on your dog. You have an
interesting home page.
Dave Zappa
> The Korean pianos on which I have
> performed have had constant problems with the key action. \
:snip:
> The Korean pianos, in general, also seemed to be less stable in the
> area of tuning.
:snip:
> The problem with that is that
> there were several technicians from various music dealers, none, of
> whom, could resolve the problems with these Korean pianos.
In other words Don thinks they suck. I can respect that. :-)