Chopin Nocturne No1 in B flat minor (rhythm)
Michael John Holme
Hi,
I've recently been trying to read through Chopins Nocturne No1 in B
flat minor. I have no problem playing 2 notes against 3, cope with 3 vs
4 e.g. Debussy Reverie and Snow is Dancing and I have also done ok
playing 5 against 3. But this piece has me really struggling with it's
11 vs 6, 20 vs 6, 7 vs 6, etc. Last night I thought I had come up with a
solution. I played without taking my eyes off the music at all,
concentrating more than usual on the score. I tried to keep to even
quavers in the left hand and kind of slowed down or sped up as the right
hand got infront of or behind the left. I think I got a satisfactory
result with no wrong notes once. I suppose this method relys abit on the
notes being written out equidistantly which they are not always cause of
space for accidentals.
What I really want to know is what is the secret to playing polyrhythms
how can I get to the stage were I don't care how many notes are against
what. Please tell me how you cracked it.
Mike Holme
-----------------------------------------------------
| Michael John Holme, Senior Technician |
| Dept Computing, Manchester Metropolitan University |
| Chester Street, Manchester, M1 5GD, United Kingdom |
| email : M.H...@doc.mmu.ac.uk |
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------------------------------------------------------
Harry
Michael John Holme wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've recently been trying to read through Chopins Nocturne No1 in B
> flat minor. I have no problem playing 2 notes against 3, cope with 3 vs
> 4 e.g. Debussy Reverie and Snow is Dancing and I have also done ok
> playing 5 against 3. But this piece has me really struggling with it's
> 11 vs 6, 20 vs 6, 7 vs 6, etc. Last night I thought I had come up with a
> solution. I played without taking my eyes off the music at all,
> concentrating more than usual on the score. I tried to keep to even
> quavers in the left hand and kind of slowed down or sped up as the right
> hand got infront of or behind the left. I think I got a satisfactory
> result with no wrong notes once. I suppose this method relys abit on the
> notes being written out equidistantly which they are not always cause of
> space for accidentals.
> What I really want to know is what is the secret to playing polyrhythms
> how can I get to the stage were I don't care how many notes are against
> what. Please tell me how you cracked it.
Ha! I remember it well, ... because it wasn't that long ago. Yes the
printers don't always evenly space the notes and I think the best way
with this nocturne is to *start* by dividing the time values
mathematically, even to the point of drawing lines between the staff to
mark where the notes match up, (for beginners), and here one might chose
to make some rythmic adjustments. In bar four, for example; 22 vs 12
rythme: The last three notes in the right hand I play as a "triplet"
against the last two notes of the left hand. I divide what's left over
at the beginning of the bar more or less evenly. This isn't the only
way to do it, but it slows up the last three notes that lead into the
downbeat of the following bar nicely, in my opinion. Then after much
practise, it becomes automatic and really flows. My new teacher said,
"Oh that's a *gift*." Gift?! My big toe! I worked for that!!!
This has become my favourite piece because it is one of the last ones I
worked on with my former teacher, before he died. I played it at his
memorial. It's very beautiful.
--
* Regards, Fred H. Williams, (alias "harry on the net")
*------------------------------------------------------------
* "Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
* every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft
* from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold
* and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending
* money alone. It is spending the sweat of it's laborers,
* the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children...
* This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under
* the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from
* a cross of iron." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower.
*------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Hofheimer
In the Cortot edition of the 4th Ballade, he makes many changes in the
timing so instead of facing 5-against-3 and other difficult rhythms it
never gets worse than 4-against-3. Whether or not this is good performance
practice, its a good way to learn the notes.
Greg Jones
Michael John Holme wrote in message <343C97...@doc.mmu.ac.uk>...
The way I approach long runs like these is basically the way you talk
about -- concentrate on evenness in the bass and adjust the right hand
to keep in about the right place.
Initially you can draw lines or whatever to figure out approximately
where the notes should fall, but as you develop the piece, you
probably don't want to play the run in the melody completely even
anyway. There will usually be a fair amount of rubato, so things
don't line up the way they used to.
It's mostly a mental multitasking effort. You simultaneously listen
to the even bass line in the left hand and the flowing run in the
right. Eventually something will just "click" and they'll operate
independently. It takes lots of practice though.
Stricter rhythms (for example, 4-3 in one of the posthumous Chopin
etudes) are a little bit different, because there things will stay
"lined up" more. It still helps to try to multitask in your brain and
hear both lines independently but simultaneously, to avoid sounding
very mechanical.
And yes, it's hard. I find even simple polyrhythm like 3-2 is
difficult for me when it gets going fast, in Beethoven for example.
--
Greg Jones
gre...@xmicrosoft.com
[I just happen to work here. Sheer coincidence.]
[Remove the anti-spam x's from my address to reply.]
Jason Sifford
Just work out the fioritura metrically (I think someone else suggested
this, too).
For example, the third bar of the nocturne has 11 in the space of 6,
so learn the 11 like this:
3 sets of triplets and a duplet at the end (3+3+3+2=11)
Once you've got that, just pretend you're a bad pianist and let your
right hand lag behind your left a little, make sure all the notes are
even, and it should be fine.
On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:38:18 +0100, Michael John Holme
<M.H...@doc.mmu.ac.uk> wrote:
>Hi,
>
> I've recently been trying to read through Chopins Nocturne No1 in B
>flat minor. I have no problem playing 2 notes against 3, cope with 3 vs
>4 e.g. Debussy Reverie and Snow is Dancing and I have also done ok
>playing 5 against 3. But this piece has me really struggling with it's
>11 vs 6, 20 vs 6, 7 vs 6, etc. Last night I thought I had come up with a
>solution. I played without taking my eyes off the music at all,
>concentrating more than usual on the score. I tried to keep to even
>quavers in the left hand and kind of slowed down or sped up as the right
>hand got infront of or behind the left. I think I got a satisfactory
>result with no wrong notes once. I suppose this method relys abit on the
>notes being written out equidistantly which they are not always cause of
>space for accidentals.
>What I really want to know is what is the secret to playing polyrhythms
>how can I get to the stage were I don't care how many notes are against
>what. Please tell me how you cracked it.
>
ZortC
Suggest you practice hands separately for a good while and as you play each
hand alone think and feel in terms of pulse - forget about thinking in terms
of beats for now. When you are dealing with no more than 7 notes in one hand,
you can use one pulse; since your example is 20:6, you will need to use one
pulse split into smaller bits - probably into three. So - the RH plays 20
notes all in a pulse and the LH plays 6 notes all in a pulse -- with the
length of time of a pulse being exactly identical for each hand. Try it this
way first with a smaller number of notes to get the feel of what I mean by
pulse instead of beat.
Begin your practice by playing one hand three or four times in a row, then the
other hand three or four times in a row; do this for several reps, then try
hands together once (I can almost guarantee it won't work just yet!).
Gradually move from doing each hand alone three or four times to doing each
hand alone two or three times before alternating, then hands together once.
Eventually work down to alternating hands each time and then hands together
once
After you have succeeded in combing your hands by using the pulse method, you
can determine how much you need to shorten the length of the pulse in order to
make it fit the tempo of the rest of the music.
I have been teaching for a number of years and have had great success with this
process. Good luck - and let us know how you're doing!
Ceil
Ralph Thomas
In article <343C97...@doc.mmu.ac.uk>, Michael John Holme <M.H...@doc.mmu.ac.uk> says:
>
>Hi,
>
> I've recently been trying to read through Chopins Nocturne No1 in B
>flat minor. I have no problem playing 2 notes against 3, cope with 3 vs
>4 e.g. Debussy Reverie and Snow is Dancing and I have also done ok
>playing 5 against 3. But this piece has me really struggling with it's
>11 vs 6, 20 vs 6, 7 vs 6, etc. Last night I thought I had come up with a
>solution. I played without taking my eyes off the music at all,
>concentrating more than usual on the score. I tried to keep to even
>quavers in the left hand and kind of slowed down or sped up as the right
>hand got infront of or behind the left. I think I got a satisfactory
>result with no wrong notes once. I suppose this method relys abit on the
>notes being written out equidistantly which they are not always cause of
>space for accidentals.
>What I really want to know is what is the secret to playing polyrhythms
>how can I get to the stage were I don't care how many notes are against
>what. Please tell me how you cracked it.
>
>Mike Holme
>
This is one of my favorite Chopin pieces.
I suggest you don't get carried away with the mechanical relationships. Try instead
playing each hand separately. When you put both hands together, watch the phrasing
and find where both hands can come together. The art is in the sound - the interpretation -
not the mechanics. Very subtle.
One thing I like to do is play CD's of the pieces I'm working on. It's nice to hear other
artists interpretations.
Good luck
Ralph Thomas
Michael Owen
Richard Hofheimer <a-ri...@microsoft.com> wrote:
: In the Cortot edition of the 4th Ballade, he makes many changes in the
: timing so instead of facing 5-against-3 and other difficult rhythms it
: never gets worse than 4-against-3. Whether or not this is good performance
: practice, its a good way to learn the notes.
There's a great book by Douglas Hofstadter (who wrote Godel, Escher, Bach)
called "Metamagical Themas". It's got a chapter in it called "Pattern and
Poetry-The music of Chopin" (or something like that). It's a great read
and goes into some detail about poly-rhythms among other things. His
description of trying to play some of the etudes is hilarious and so very
accurate.
Mike
Tom Shaw
subject.
TS
Harry
Tom Shaw wrote:
>
> Michael Owen wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > There's a great book by Douglas Hofstadter (who wrote Godel, Escher, Bach)
> > called "Metamagical Themas". It's got a chapter in it called "Pattern and
> > Poetry-The music of Chopin" (or something like that). It's a great read
> > and goes into some detail about poly-rhythms among other things. His
> > description of trying to play some of the etudes is hilarious and so very
> > accurate.
> >
> Personally I wouldn't recommend anything Hofstadter wrote on any
> subject.
> TS
Now I have three of Hofstader's works and I found them to be very
interesting. What didn't you like about his writing? I will say, the
bit on Chopin was OK, but it didn't help me play anything better. I
like Hofstader mostly for the math.
MJMClayton
My suggestion would be to look for no answers on the printed page. Memorize
the parts by any of the methods altready suggested that might work for you.
Combine the parts (RH & LH) without looking at the page. KNOW the music and
FEEL it. Your musical sense will do much to put the parts together. Learning
to play those difficult passages (not necessarily the entire piece) from
memory will, in my experience, greatly speed up the learning process.
Chopin did not write metric music. These clashes of beat divisions are
intended to create a carpet of sound with shifting intesnsity. It´s not a
matter of getting the exact placment of the notes "right", but achieving the
musical effect that Chopin was looking for while presenting a coherent
interpretation.
Robert Scott
mjmcl...@aol.com (MJMClayton) wrote:
>My suggestion would be to look for no answers on the printed page. Memorize
> the parts by any of the methods altready suggested that might work for you.
> Combine the parts (RH & LH) without looking at the page. KNOW the music and
> FEEL it. Your musical sense will do much to put the parts together. Learning
> to play those difficult passages (not necessarily the entire piece) from
> memory will, in my experience, greatly speed up the learning process.
I had been avoiding music with too much disconnected timing
(22 against 12 as in the Nocturne No1) until I met this Nocturne.
I played the first line over and over at slow speed until gradually
something clicked and I could play the steady LH without thinking
about it. Finally the speeds matched and the LH and RH were actually
finishing together. Now, rather than causing me dread, 22 against 12
is something I look forward to with great anticipation.
Bob Scott
Ann Arbor, Michigan