Just can't please everyone...
Ronn Dunnett
>The guy is starting to act like an asshole, don't you think? Cuts
down
DW in a thread addressed to JVN, cuts down -MIKE-, who's just trying
to
make a buck selling drums. In fact, advertises to RMMP how to go
around
-MIKE-'s back. Shit, I don't even like -MIKE-, but I think it's
awfully
unprofessional. I honestly don't think I'd buy a drum from Ronn now.
Too many nice guys like Brian making perfectly good snares in the
world.
I think Ronn ought to remember he's not just another poster who can
throw shit like the rest of the chimps in RMMP. He's a businessman
who
needs to be a little above the fray.
I know his drums are great, but he needs to get a better "self of
steam"
and stop knocking other guys. His drums should speak for themselves.
Just my .02. I wouldn't bother you, but I know you talk to him.<
I would like to address this.
First of all I consider JVN to be a friend and if nothing else I have
only the greatest respect for him AND for DW. I don't know what thread
this fellow is referring to, but yes, I do occasionally criticize DW
and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
constructive. In fact, my dissatisfaction with many of these companies
is what lead me to start my own. Regardless, like any other person who
posts on RMMP or elsewhere, these are my opinions. They are not
gospel, but they are honest. I have posted things in the past that I
have later come to regret, but I am not above explaining or
apologizing if my opinions cause unintentional misunderstanding or
harm. SOmetimes I shoot from the hip and get things wrong. I'm human
and I am entitles to some frailties. If I was that concerned with how
others might interpret my comments I wouldn't participate in these
public forums. Then I would be just like all of the other companies
that ignore and isolate themselves from thier clients who are in the "
professional trenches" for fear of offending or risking some bad PR
because of misunderstandings.
I get a lot of valuable feedback from these forums and I use that to
help me make better drums AND improve the service I deliver. But my
presence on these forums is primarily as a drummer. Just because I
start a little drum company doesn't mean I become something above my
colleagues in the field. I am a drumer first. I may not always be in
the drum building business, but I will always be a drummer.
That said, I am AM in the business of building drums and as such I
have an interest in the state of the industry. There are things that I
see happening on forums that just grate on my nerves. One of those
things is the way that certain products have begun to appear
EVERYWHERE, and at dirt cheap prices. Not only has Joe Average
discovered he can access Keller shells and cheap Taiwanese hardware
and build his own drums (and I DO NOT begrudge ANYONE that, in fact I
encourage drummers to build at least one drum in thier life becasue
it's the best way to get to know your instrument) but now Joe Average
is an overnight drum company. Then Joe Average becomes an on line
retailer, expect he doesn't actually retail. He doesn't sell the
value, he just sells the price. And they genuine, bonafide dealers who
have established web sites or store fronts have to take it in the butt
because Joe (who is usually NOT entitles to WHOLESALE / DEALER
pricing) can now purchase at WHOLESALE the same items as legit
resellers who have invest real time and real dollars establishing a
real business.
It's not a personal attack on ANYONE - Mike or whoever. I would NEVER
do that. If anyone is to blame it's the wholesalers who are trusted to
to protect genuine retailers and resellers by NOT selling to Joe
Average. And that has not happened.
And that is what I was pointing out.
Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong. I have the right to be either. I
have signed my name and email address and if anyone wants to open
dialogue or discuss ANYTHING, I make myself accessible. And anyone has
the right to agree, disagree or question what I say. I'm not afraid of
criticsm which why I am posting this. Whoever sent this to one of my
clients needs to suck up a bit of courage step up to the plate. If
suffering fools makes me an asshole, then it's a moniker I accept with
pride.
REMOVE@home.com Steve Gardner
that is he is very ignorant. Does "self of steam" speak for itself or what?
He has gone out of his way to get under most everybodys skin. When he
realizes that many people have him killfiled, he changes his name. In other
words....consider the source.
"Ronn Dunnett" <ro...@dunnett.com> wrote in message
news:b16abf84.01081...@posting.google.com...
Lyle Caldwell
spelling was far too good.
--
Lyle Caldwell
Psionic Media, Inc.
"Steve Gardner" <stevegardner REM...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Dlfd7.117869$Cy.16...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com...
Lee Jones
Tom did not send that message. None of his too many to count spelling
mistakes are there. The self of steam reference is in quotes and I believe
is meant as an inside joke.
"Steve Gardner" <stevegardner REM...@home.com> wrote in
<Dlfd7.117869$Cy.16...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com>:
>Ronn- Do not take this person too seriously. He has proven in numerous
>posts that is he is very ignorant. Does "self of steam" speak for itself
>or what? He has gone out of his way to get under most everybodys skin.
>When he realizes that many people have him killfiled, he changes his
>name. In other words....consider the source.
>"Ronn Dunnett" <ro...@dunnett.com> wrote in message
--
"Face it, you are retarded, fat, stupid, mentally ill,
a talentless drummer, small dicked, cowardly and basically
a waste of protein and nitrogen." - R Schuh
REMOVE@home.com Steve Gardner
board. If it was not that person, scratch my post...
"Lyle Caldwell" <cald...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%wfd7.20644$Ke7.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Robert Schuh
LOL! Steve, was that retard Tom who used the phrase "self of steam?" My god, I
knew this guy was a moron, but that on REALLY takes the cake! :-)
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche
"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
Robert Schuh
My god, who was the fucking moron who thinks that "self of steam" is a
phrase and not a word? :-)
-MIKE-
>
>> The guy is starting to act like an asshole, don't you think? Cuts down
>> DW in a thread addressed to JVN, cuts down -MIKE-, who's just trying to
>> make a buck selling drums. In fact, advertises to RMMP how to go around
>> -MIKE-'s back. Shit, I don't even like -MIKE-, but I think it's awfully
>> unprofessional.
The only thing I'm concerned with, here, is that there might be
someone who doesn't like me. Come on, am I not *the* most lovable
guy in here? C'mere, give us a hug. :-)
> Just my .02. I wouldn't bother you, but I know you talk to him.<
>
> I would like to address this.
>
> First of all I consider JVN to be a friend and if nothing else I have
> only the greatest respect for him AND for DW. I don't know what thread
> this fellow is referring to, but yes, I do occasionally criticize DW
> and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
> constructive. In fact, my dissatisfaction with many of these companies
> is what lead me to start my own. Regardless, like any other person who
> posts on RMMP or elsewhere, these are my opinions. They are not
> gospel, but they are honest. I have posted things in the past that I
> have later come to regret, but I am not above explaining or
> apologizing if my opinions cause unintentional misunderstanding or
> harm. SOmetimes I shoot from the hip and get things wrong. I'm human
> and I am entitles to some frailties. If I was that concerned with how
> others might interpret my comments I wouldn't participate in these
> public forums. Then I would be just like all of the other companies
> that ignore and isolate themselves from thier clients who are in the "
> professional trenches" for fear of offending or risking some bad PR
> because of misunderstandings.
>
Personally, I don't any problem with you offering your opinions of
other companies' products. That's part of why this group exists.
After your "tune-lock" critique explanation, I saw where you were
coming from. And I don't mind you shoot from the hip style. That's
just a personality thing that I share with you. :-)
> I get a lot of valuable feedback from these forums and I use that to
> help me make better drums AND improve the service I deliver. But my
> presence on these forums is primarily as a drummer. Just because I
> start a little drum company doesn't mean I become something above my
> colleagues in the field. I am a drummer first. I may not always be in
> the drum building business, but I will always be a drummer.
Me, too. I hope gigging will put me out of the drum making
business. I don't advertise in any magazines or on the web, because
I don't want to be known as a drum maker. I would like to, some
day, be known as a drummer.
> That said, I am AM in the business of building drums and as such I
> have an interest in the state of the industry. There are things that I
> see happening on forums that just grate on my nerves. One of those
> things is the way that certain products have begun to appear
> EVERYWHERE, and at dirt cheap prices. Not only has Joe Average
> discovered he can access Keller shells and cheap Taiwanese hardware
> and build his own drums (and I DO NOT begrudge ANYONE that, in fact I
> encourage drummers to build at least one drum in thier life becasue
> it's the best way to get to know your instrument) but now Joe Average
> is an overnight drum company. Then Joe Average becomes an on line
> retailer, expect he doesn't actually retail. He doesn't sell the
> value, he just sells the price. And they genuine, bonafide dealers who
> have established web sites or store fronts have to take it in the butt
> because Joe (who is usually NOT entitles to WHOLESALE / DEALER
> pricing) can now purchase at WHOLESALE the same items as legit
> resellers who have invest real time and real dollars establishing a
> real business.
>
> It's not a personal attack on ANYONE - Mike or whoever. I would NEVER
> do that. If anyone is to blame it's the wholesalers who are trusted to
> to protect genuine retailers and resellers by NOT selling to Joe
> Average. And that has not happened.
>
> And that is what I was pointing out.
>
It's hard to think it's not an attack on me, Ronn, when it's a reply
to my post. I told you in the earlier "Check out the prices of this
drum company" thread that I would be selling World Max stuff, very
soon. I can assure you that I am making as much profit on these as
any Mom-n-Pop store from which I have bought stuff.
I'm not exactly Joe Average drum guy who bought some keller shells,
Ronn. Have you seen my custom snare work? Did you know I am
working on building my own steam bent, and stave shells. Did you
know I am trying to build up the capital to invest in a commercial
lathe. Let's not pretend you are some guru with all this secret
information stored up in your head and some incredible talent not
bestowed upon any other human being. We can all divulge secrets,
but it's not my style. I like to get along with people.
I like you, Ronn. I think if we were to sit down to a beer, we
would have some good laughs. But really, do I have to ask your
permission to sell drums or ask you to approve my profit margin. We
share some of the same clientele, and we don't. Guys like Schuh
won't even touch the World Max stuff, but lust over one of my solid
shell beauties. Guys like Speegle want some of both worlds. And
other's just can't afford your stuff, but still deserve a great
sounding snare drum, even if it's not a collector's item.
I love your stuff, Ronn. I think you have very few peers in regards
to your craftsmanship and design. We share the same appreciation
and demand for quality components and material. I have respect for
your ability and your dedication to the craft. Please don't lump me
in with those you look down your nose at. I have said before that
there are only certain World Max components I will be associated
with. I check them out and use them before I sell them. There is
*very little* of their hardware I would put on any of my high end
custom snares. What about you?
Bottom line: those World Max brass snares sound VERY nice, are VERY
sensitive, and happen to be VERY inexpensive. Those darn Chinese do
a good job on a few things, huh?
You have a niche market, Ronn. Your stuff is at the highest level
of quality and sound, right? The creme rises to the top in a free
market economy. What are you worried about? Guys who want to spend
5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, or 12 hundred or more dollars on a metal snare
drum are going to scoff at this World Max stuff, because it just
isn't in the same league. Right? Or is that what you're
worried about? :-)
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
REMOVE@home.com Steve Gardner
to the rest of the message. I will never forget that as long as I live.
There is no way he was serious with that...no way.
"Robert Schuh" <r...@rschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3B758D40...@rschuh.com...
Jeffrey Speegle
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> The only thing I'm concerned with, here, is that there might be
> someone who doesn't like me. Come on, am I not *the* most lovable
> guy in here?
No, I AM! ;-)
> C'mere, give us a hug. :-)
Just keep that hair away from me!
...you could put someone's eye out
with that stuff! ;-)
--
JWS
http://reality.sgi.com/speegle_huntsville/drums.html
---------------------------------------------------------
| Jeffrey W. Speegle |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Wideband Ink Studios | Hartselle, Alabama 35640 |
| 256.751.9850 | jeffrey...@mindspring.com |
---------------------------------------------------------
giarcman
> A friend of mine received this email:
>
> (snip my letter)
>
> I would like to address this.
>
> First of all I consider JVN to be a friend and if nothing else I have
> only the greatest respect for him AND for DW. I don't know what thread
> this fellow is referring to, but yes, I do occasionally criticize DW
> and other companies.
The thread's subject header is JVN? Not Dunnett. JVN.
Here's your post:
***
"DW, like most other companies, has not given much shrift to snare beds
in either their promotional material or thier drums. The only compan
ythat EVER talked about beds was Rogers and they were boasting because
they didn't heave any (Dynasonic). DW and Premier are known for thier
lack of beds. I have had 6 or 7 DW's and a few Premier snares through
the shop for beds. Not that I'm complaining - ignoring one of the most
important aspects of a snare drum is good for my business, so just
keep a churnin' 'em out boys!
This is not intended as an attack or a criticism. Just an observation."
***
Let me summarize. DW doesn't pay much attention to the crafting of snare
beds. In fact, they're infamous for their inattention. Good thing they
suck at snare beds, because MY snare beds are good. Even though this
message fulfills all the requirements of criticism, I'll now pretend this
is not my opinion as a competitor, but rather, an observable fact.
I think that stinks, Ronn. More on why in a bit.
> I try to keep that criticism positive and
> constructive.
Your above criticism was neither. In fact, you used it to highlight your
role as a competitor.
> In fact, my dissatisfaction with many of these companies
> is what lead me to start my own. Regardless, like any other person who
> posts on RMMP or elsewhere, these are my opinions. They are not
> gospel, but they are honest. I have posted things in the past that I
> have later come to regret, but I am not above explaining or
> apologizing if my opinions cause unintentional misunderstanding or
> harm. SOmetimes I shoot from the hip and get things wrong. I'm human
> and I am entitles to some frailties. If I was that concerned with how
> others might interpret my comments I wouldn't participate in these
> public forums. Then I would be just like all of the other companies
> that ignore and isolate themselves from thier clients who are in the "
> professional trenches" for fear of offending or risking some bad PR
> because of misunderstandings.
The above is very confusing. Are you saying now that this wasn't an
observation? Are you saying that this was something you shouldn't have
said? Are you claiming human frailty as some kind of carte blanche...a
sort of drummaker's Tourette's that allows you to criticize other
professionals in here with impunity? Are you suggesting that unless a
drummaker's rep says whatever he wants, no matter how competitive or
undercutting the remark is, that rep is somehow not doing his job? Are
you saying there is no place for professional courtesy amongst drummakers
in this forum?
> I get a lot of valuable feedback from these forums and I use that to
> help me make better drums AND improve the service I deliver. But my
> presence on these forums is primarily as a drummer. Just because I
> start a little drum company doesn't mean I become something above my
> colleagues in the field. I am a drumer first. I may not always be in
> the drum building business, but I will always be a drummer.
Good. I hope you find this feedback valuable, but please, make no
mistake. When you say your presence in this forum is primarily as a
drummer, you're wrong, IMO. You might WANT that to be the nature of your
presence, and you might INTEND that to be the nature of that presence. I
submit that regardless of what you think and want, you are a man who
builds and sells drums to the members of this forum. You comment most
often on threads involving the manufacture and sale of drums. You are
not here primarily as a drummer. You presence here is primarily as a man
who makes and sells drums to the drummers in this group. There's nothing
wrong with that. It just think it should inform the nature of your
posting.
> That said, I am AM in the business of building drums and as such I
> have an interest in the state of the industry. There are things that I
> see happening on forums that just grate on my nerves. One of those
> things is the way that certain products have begun to appear
> EVERYWHERE, and at dirt cheap prices. Not only has Joe Average
> discovered he can access Keller shells and cheap Taiwanese hardware
> and build his own drums (and I DO NOT begrudge ANYONE that, in fact I
> encourage drummers to build at least one drum in thier life becasue
> it's the best way to get to know your instrument) but now Joe Average
> is an overnight drum company. Then Joe Average becomes an on line
> retailer, expect he doesn't actually retail. He doesn't sell the
> value, he just sells the price. And they genuine, bonafide dealers who
> have established web sites or store fronts have to take it in the butt
> because Joe (who is usually NOT entitles to WHOLESALE / DEALER
> pricing) can now purchase at WHOLESALE the same items as legit
> resellers who have invest real time and real dollars establishing a
> real business.
I find the above to be very cynical. First, let's discuss your view of
"Joe Average." Why not strip away this euphemism and just say, "stupid
drum buyers?" Or "the drum riff-raff?" Or "the unannointed?" Rather
than dismissing Joe Average as just another schmuck drummer who wants to
build a snare himself rather than bask in the glory of your admittedly
wonderful drums, why not treat this individual with a little more
respect? His next drum may be one of yours. You may not begrudge them
the experience, but I find it hard to believe you respect it, despite
your mixed message to the contrary.
Here's where you really go off the rails. Now, Joe Average is getting
uppity enough to consider SELLING his drums to people. Ronn, with all
due respect, if you can't find a way to compete with other drum salesmen,
get out of the business. If people are building, importing or magically
conjuring drums and then selling them at a price, legally, then your
nerves must be grating for no other reason than your own inability to
compete. Since when does a small drummaker like you engage in corporate
anti-competitive nonsense phrases like "genuine, bonafide, legit
dealers?" I'm sorry, was there a drum-selling license imposed on the
general public? Don't you think Pearl, Yammie, Tama, et al consider YOU
a less than genuine, less than bona fide dealer? Don't you think that
attitude sucks? Don't you think it costs them business?
Tell me, Ronn. When you were building your first drum, did you feel
illegitimate? It's absurd to suggest that anyone who sells any legal
product at a legal price in a legal manner is anything but a good,
honest, entrepreneurial American.
> It's not a personal attack on ANYONE - Mike or whoever. I would NEVER
> do that. If anyone is to blame it's the wholesalers who are trusted to
> to protect genuine retailers and resellers by NOT selling to Joe
> Average. And that has not happened.
When you attack someone's sale, it's personal. If I were to stand in
front of your store (were you to have one) handing out pamphlets that
showed your customers just how much you were marking up your materials, I
think you'd find that personal enough.
Now, who is trusting wholesalers to protect "genuine" retailers? Guys
like you? Why is that at all good for US, the drum-buying public? Since
when did the drum industry need anti-free-market controls to stifle the
small businessman? You are not a genuine retailer, Ronn. You are a
retailer. It's a pointless discrimination, especially given the size of
your business.
> Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong. I have the right to be either.
No one has the right to be wrong or correct. We're simply one or the
other--no privilege involved. You have the right to THINK you're one or
the other. I leave the ultimate evaluation up to the big floating Truth
pillar in the sky.
> I
> have signed my name and email address and if anyone wants to open
> dialogue or discuss ANYTHING, I make myself accessible. And anyone has
> the right to agree, disagree or question what I say. I'm not afraid of
> criticsm which why I am posting this. Whoever sent this to one of my
> clients needs to suck up a bit of courage step up to the plate. If
> suffering fools makes me an asshole, then it's a moniker I accept with
> pride.
I have taken a long break from RMMP for personal reasons, all of which
are quite pleasant, but felt compelled to post this. I do not like
feeling like an anonymous whisperer, having been the victim of such
things myself. I did not intend for the person who fowarded my email to
do so; rather, I wanted him to talk with you (as mentioned in my email).
I don't need to suck any courage up. In fact, I was trying to be
discreet for your sake. I am not a fool, and you are not an asshole.
What you did in -MIKE-'s Black Beauty clone thread, however, was
thoroughly unprofessional and undercutting. It was particularly
egregious coming from a fellow small businessman who ought to be, at the
very least, dignified regarding other legal ventures in the same field.
I point you towards JVN, who, as a rep for DW, has had to read plenty in
RMMP that was less than flattering to his brand. Furthermore, he's had
to share the space with reps from Premier, Spaun, MRP, your company, and
others. Through it all, he has never been anything but respectful,
professional, and a credit to DW. He has somehow managed to correct
misinformation and promote his own products without either shilling,
undercutting or smearing, though I suspect he's got enough insider
information to blow our socks off. If you ever wake up and find yourself
looking for a role model on how to conduct yourself as a company rep
online, you need look no further than John.
And now, a word of apology to -MIKE-. I did, in fact, write in my
private email that "I don't even like -MIKE-." I'm not going to
backpedal away from the statement. It's true. I don't really like him
much. I can only qualify it by saying that I don't like MIKE in the
sense that he's just not my type (and I KNOW I'm not really his).
However, I don't have any *active* beef with him at all, which is why I
would have never posted such a remark in RMMP...no real point. My point
in the letter was really made only to support exactly how personally
unbiased my feelings on this issue were. Again, I'm sorry if it seems
like I called him out in RMMP. We're not exactly buddies, but I don't
consider him a problem in my life in any way.
Talking about damning someone with faint praise. :)
For those wondering about "self of steam," that was, in fact, a reference
to our resident word butcher, Tom Giorgio. I'm honestly not that
creative.
Another point. I know that some people (particularly Schuh) have an
issue with anyone allowing any criteria influence their drum-buying
decisions beyond the quality of the drum itself. I respectfully
disagree. The world is full of wonderful snare drums, and I'm just
starting my collection. It may seem odd to some, but I *do* consider the
values and attitude of a company when evaluating their products.
Finally, I'm afraid I have to resubmerge (hold your applause 'til the
end). I don't know when I'll be back. I won't be responding in here to
this thread, but I will lurk on it and send emails to posters when
appropriate. You can often find me in #rmmp on IRC, always on a NewNet
server, typically weeknights around 1 am Eastern Time. Until my return,
I can only leave you with this bit of wisdom...
Listen to jmt. He is the Fool on the Hill.
Just another dude with drum money to burn,
C.
Bob Wennerstrom
didn't want to be flamed by the followers of the God of snare drums.
Ronn, my opinion is that you are to be held to a higher standard than the
average drummer in here. The only thing I have seen you post in here are
disparaging comments about other drum companies or blatant promotion of
your own products.
Here are the things I remember you posting.
The guy at Bearing Edge drums is a rip off
Well, maybe the guy at Bearing Edge isn't so bad
Ayotte lugs aren't very good.
Premier and DW snare beds aren't deep enough
Ludwig retards are incompetent at selling their products
Cheap Taiwainese drums are ruining the drumming world
My snare drums posted very well in the Olympics
I'm giving a great deal on my snare drums now.
I've got items up for auction on Ebay
If you really are a drummer as you say you are, Why don't you join in on
the discussion on some drumming threads. I would have no problem with
hearing your opinion on heads, sticks, hardware, or anything else you are
not selling. Why don't you tell us the first concert you went to or who
your favorite drummer is?
To be quite honest, I really, really thought about buying a Dunnett snare
drum due to all the rave reviews of your congregation. Now that you have
opened your mouth in here, I wouldn't even consider it.
Think about it, How would it look if a spokesman for GM got on some
automotive newsgroup and posted disparaging comments about other
automakers while promoting Chevys? If you want to be "just one of the
guys", get an annonomous account and post away but while you are
representing your company, I suggest you tread lightly in here.
Drummer at large
George Lawrence
there's your culprit.
--
George Lawrence, Nashville TN
Drumsets Rendered
http://www.drumguru.com
"The longer you take, the farther you'll get"
George Lawrence
instrument on anything other than sound and craftsmanship. All drum
makers are odd ducks anyway :-). I just won't pay his prices,so I'll
have to wait on a mother in law deal somewhere! I know where you get
your shells anyway, Ronn. :-)
--
TomDrums
>board. If it was not that person, scratch my post...
Steve are you not from Arizona?
You guys don't have a good track record down there when it comes to average IQ
numbers. I would be very careful if I were you. ;o)
TomDrums
>there's your culprit.
What is Lok? I have scoured websters and cannot find this word?
Michael Fell
wrote:
>I'll buy one of Ronn's drums. I will never base my decision to play an
>instrument on anything other than sound and craftsmanship. All drum
>makers are odd ducks anyway :-). I just won't pay his prices,so I'll
>have to wait on a mother in law deal somewhere! I know where you get
>your shells anyway, Ronn. :-)
I was under the impression Ronn made his own shells. This is true
isnt it?
Mike
Michael Fell
Look in the Japanese version of Webster's. :-)
Mike
Ronn Dunnett
great deal of respect for the author of the message.
I have been contacted directly by many people on this board who have
had issues with things I have said or the way I said them and I have
always dealt with them with respect. Obviously drummers and people in
general will disagree from time to time.
I don't know who sent it and I don't care because if you don't have
the courage of your convictions to speak your mind to the person you
have an issue with or sign your name...well, your opinion isn't worth
much is it?
veinmelter
> that is he is very ignorant. Does "self of steam" speak for itself or what?
> He has gone out of his way to get under most everybodys skin. When he
> realizes that many people have him killfiled, he changes his name. In other
> words....consider the source.
>
Lame excuse Mr. Dunnett. There was no reason to post the World Max #'s
on the other thread. It just reads as sour grapes and doesn't look
good if you're trying to be a first class snare drum craftsman. Maybe
you should think a little more before you press the "send" button.
And besides, what's the point of posting the "hate' mail? Don't
you feel empowered if you just file it away in the back of your mind
to be remembered when necessary? That's what I did with Rob's.
REMOVE@home.com Steve Gardner
"TomDrums" <n2...@aol.comNospam> wrote in message
news:20010811195019...@mb-md.aol.com...
TomDrums
Yo Steve is it my imagination or did I see you trying to bring my name into
Ron's
mess?
Sean Conolly
> Ronn, my opinion is that you are to be held to a higher standard than the
> average drummer in here. The only thing I have seen you post in here are
> disparaging comments about other drum companies or blatant promotion of
> your own products.
>
> Here are the things I remember you posting.
>
> The guy at Bearing Edge drums is a rip off
> Well, maybe the guy at Bearing Edge isn't so bad
> Ayotte lugs aren't very good.
> Premier and DW snare beds aren't deep enough
> Ludwig retards are incompetent at selling their products
> Cheap Taiwainese drums are ruining the drumming world
> My snare drums posted very well in the Olympics
> I'm giving a great deal on my snare drums now.
> I've got items up for auction on Ebay
Well, I could easily imagine someone who spends countless hours on his
little drum business to be a bit wrapped up in it. Especially one who has
set out to produce the finest sounding drums available. I wouldn't be
surprised at all to find this person to be kind of anal and obsessed with
his work. Why? Because he probably spends well over a hundred hours a week
immersed in his company and his craft. It's just a natural tendancy that
goes with the turf.
So were I to meet this long suffering brother in arms, I'd buy him several
drinks and try to get him to loosen up and think about anything but drums
for a few hours. Then I'd hope he'd reward me with a nice discount on one of
his masterpieces ;-)
FWIW: I don't hold anyone to a higher standard than I hold to myself.
Sean
Robert Schuh
My god you like to whine like a little Beeyoch Mo. You ought to stay with all the other pussies in the DCI board and keep
your pie hole shut.
Robert Schuh
Wow, check the ego on this guy! :-) I NEVER lusted after your snares Mike, but
I did sport wood a few times! :-)
Robert Schuh
Ronn,
I have 3 convictions, does that make me special? :-)
TomDrums
What the F? What in the F do I have to do with Ron? How in the hell did I mixed
up in this? Keep me out of this thread Steve and Grow the F up.
Go practice more inbreeding down there and shut your pie hole.
Are you married to your sister by any chance?
-MIKE-
> but I did sport wood a few times! :-)
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
Then why the naked picture in the mail? :-)
-MIKE-
my name up over there. I really wish you would address the concerns
of my reply to this post.
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
> A friend of mine received this email:
>
>>The guy is starting to act like an asshole, don't you think? Cuts
> down
> DW in a thread addressed to JVN, cuts down -MIKE-, who's just trying
> to
> make a buck selling drums. In fact, advertises to RMMP how to go
> around
> -MIKE-'s back. Shit, I don't even like -MIKE-, but I think it's
> awfully
> unprofessional. I honestly don't think I'd buy a drum from Ronn now.
> Too many nice guys like Brian making perfectly good snares in the
> world.
>
> I think Ronn ought to remember he's not just another poster who can
> throw shit like the rest of the chimps in RMMP. He's a businessman
> who
> needs to be a little above the fray.
>
> I know his drums are great, but he needs to get a better "self of
> steam"
> and stop knocking other guys. His drums should speak for themselves.
>
> Just my .02. I wouldn't bother you, but I know you talk to him.<
>
> I would like to address this.
>
> First of all I consider JVN to be a friend and if nothing else I have
> only the greatest respect for him AND for DW. I don't know what thread
> this fellow is referring to, but yes, I do occasionally criticize DW
> and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
> constructive. In fact, my dissatisfaction with many of these companies
> is what lead me to start my own. Regardless, like any other person who
> posts on RMMP or elsewhere, these are my opinions. They are not
> gospel, but they are honest. I have posted things in the past that I
> have later come to regret, but I am not above explaining or
> apologizing if my opinions cause unintentional misunderstanding or
> harm. SOmetimes I shoot from the hip and get things wrong. I'm human
> and I am entitles to some frailties. If I was that concerned with how
> others might interpret my comments I wouldn't participate in these
> public forums. Then I would be just like all of the other companies
> that ignore and isolate themselves from thier clients who are in the "
> professional trenches" for fear of offending or risking some bad PR
> because of misunderstandings.
>
> I get a lot of valuable feedback from these forums and I use that to
> help me make better drums AND improve the service I deliver. But my
> presence on these forums is primarily as a drummer. Just because I
> start a little drum company doesn't mean I become something above my
> colleagues in the field. I am a drumer first. I may not always be in
> the drum building business, but I will always be a drummer.
>
> That said, I am AM in the business of building drums and as such I
> have an interest in the state of the industry. There are things that I
> see happening on forums that just grate on my nerves. One of those
> things is the way that certain products have begun to appear
> EVERYWHERE, and at dirt cheap prices. Not only has Joe Average
> discovered he can access Keller shells and cheap Taiwanese hardware
> and build his own drums (and I DO NOT begrudge ANYONE that, in fact I
> encourage drummers to build at least one drum in thier life becasue
> it's the best way to get to know your instrument) but now Joe Average
> is an overnight drum company. Then Joe Average becomes an on line
> retailer, expect he doesn't actually retail. He doesn't sell the
> value, he just sells the price. And they genuine, bonafide dealers who
> have established web sites or store fronts have to take it in the butt
> because Joe (who is usually NOT entitles to WHOLESALE / DEALER
> pricing) can now purchase at WHOLESALE the same items as legit
> resellers who have invest real time and real dollars establishing a
> real business.
>
> It's not a personal attack on ANYONE - Mike or whoever. I would NEVER
> do that. If anyone is to blame it's the wholesalers who are trusted to
> to protect genuine retailers and resellers by NOT selling to Joe
> Average. And that has not happened.
>
> And that is what I was pointing out.
>
George Lawrence
--
RIDDIM
> >
> > >Look back in recent posts and see who uses the word chimp repeatedly
and
> > >there's your culprit.
> >
> > What is Lok? I have scoured websters and cannot find this word?
> It is a sur name in Manchuria.
Ergo, a crooked Manchurian candidate could be said to have it locked?
Lyle Caldwell
--
Lyle Caldwell
Psionic Media, Inc.
"RIDDIM" <RID...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:9l5aa6$mul$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Bob Wennerstrom
giarcman wrote:
> Another point. I know that some people (particularly Schuh) have an
> issue with anyone allowing any criteria influence their drum-buying
> decisions beyond the quality of the drum itself.
He doesn't seem to feel that way about drum heads now does he?
Drummer at large
Lyle Caldwell
If you heard me play and my kick and hat were consistently flamming, and you
said "you really need to work on that- here's an excercise to help," then
you would not be negative at all.
I could choose to react negatively or positively to your criticism, but that
does not affect the nature of your criticism.
But that's different from competitors criticizing one another (and yes,
Ronn, you are in competition with DW. If I have $400 in my pocket and I'm
considering getting a new snare, odds are I would consider both your snares
and DW's. You are therefore competing for the same business).
To keep the drummer analogy intact, if Mark and I were both auditoning for
the same gig, and Mark said "Lyle needs to work on not flamming the hat and
kick," in that case, the criticism would indeed be negative in nature, just
as Mark posits below.
So, in the context of this thread, Mark is correct, but it's not a hard and
fast rule that criticism is always negative and destructive.
--
Lyle Caldwell
Psionic Media, Inc.
"Mark Rance" <m...@pcisys.net> wrote in message
news:3B76CA36...@pcisys.net...
> Ronn Dunnett wrote:
> I do occasionally criticize DW
> and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
> constructive.
> As a point of order, there is no such thing as "positive criticism"
> nor "constructive criticism." Criticism, by definition, is negative
> and destructive.
> -Mark
>
>
>
jmt
Wrong. Consider yourself criticized.
Critically yours;
jmt
Mark Rance wrote:
>
> Ronn Dunnett wrote:
>
> > I do occasionally criticize DW
> > and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
> > constructive.
>
> As a point of order, there is no such thing as "positive criticism"
> nor "constructive criticism." Criticism, by definition, is negative
> and destructive.
>
> -Mark
>
--
"I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man." R.D. Davies
George Lawrence
The definition of criticism: the art of judging merit. A spoken or
written judgement concerning some matter resting on opinion. censure,
unfavorable comment. Source: The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary,
Encyclopedic edition, 1989 (the big ass one on my desk).
so criticism can asess positive or negative aspects of a matter or
subject thus it can be constructive and/or positive as well as negative.
Mark Rance wrote:
>
> Ronn Dunnett wrote:
>
> > I do occasionally criticize DW
> > and other companies. I try to keep that criticism positive and
> > constructive.
>
> As a point of order, there is no such thing as "positive criticism"
> nor "constructive criticism." Criticism, by definition, is negative
> and destructive.
>
> -Mark
>
--
George Lawrence
then my criticism would be positive. Criticism is also defined in
Webster's as asessing the merits and demerits of a matter. To be
criticial is to be negative. To criticize can be either. A critic is a
judge and the judgement can go either way. A critique can be positive or
negative
Mark Rance wrote:
> Using your definition, they specifically mention "unfavorable comment"
> but there
> is nothing I read in what you post that implies anything positive.
Look up the word merit?
>
> Said another way, if you had praise for someone would you say "I
> positively criticized them"?
> Are "criticism" and "compliment" not antonyms?
They can be in context, but that is not the only use of criticism: "His
criticism of my playing was favorable".
>
> Anyhow, this definition is more in line with what I think of...taken
> from dictionary.com
>
> criticism n 1: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or
> shortcomings; "the senator received severe
> criticism from his opponent" [syn: unfavorable judgment] 2: a serious
> examination and judgment of something;
> "constructive criticism is always appreciated" [syn: critique] 3: a
> written evaluation of a work of literature
> [syn: literary criticism]
>
> -Mark
>
You can also find more dictionaries that use the phrase "constructive
criticism". So there is such a thing as positive criticism and
constructive criticism. A student yesterday asked me to critique her
drum demo. I gave positive and negative comments in my critique.
Ronn Dunnett
OK, game on.
First, let's consider this. It was you who sent an
email to a client
and colleague of mine. You involved a third party. You
made comments
and suggestions that were unflattering and unfair and
then suggested
that he should "talk to me about it". Only in hind
sight have you
managed to muster the courage to post your thoughts
here and put your
name to it. Very good.
Let's go on because you've got Dunnett in the mood.
Craig Mazin : The thread's subject header is JVN? Not
Dunnett. JVN.
Sorry, email is addressed to one person. Threads on
public forums are
open to the public. My comment about DW and other
company's beds are
based on my personal experience, that being 6 or 7
drums. It is my
opinion that most companies spend more time talking
about aesthetics
than functions like snare beds. My experience supports
that. And it
was not an attack. It was a comment. By the same token
there are a
great many things that I love about DW and Premier two
very good drum
companies. I guess I need to put smiley faces after
eveything I write
:) otherwise they get misinterpreted. :)
Now, a very important point. I am not in competiton
with DW and they
are not in competiton with me. It's almost as silly as
suggesting
Paiste is in competiton with Ludwig. DW has full range
product line. I
only build snare drums. DW probably scraps more drums
than I make in a
year. As far as I am in competiton with myself.
Craig Mazin : The above is very confusing. Are you
saying now that this wasn't an
observation? Are you saying that this was something
you shouldn't
have
said? Are you claiming human frailty as some kind of
carte
blanche...a
sort of drummaker's Tourette's that allows you to
criticize other
professionals in here with impunity? Are you
suggesting that unless a
drummaker's rep says whatever he wants, no matter how
competitive or
undercutting the remark is, that rep is somehow not
doing his job?
Are
you saying there is no place for professional courtesy
amongst
drummakers
in this forum?
Brother, I think YOU are confused. Anyone can read
anything into
anything and you are doing a hell of a job putting
words in my mouth.
You are not a drum builder and your experience appears
to be limited
to that of a consumer. You have zero understanding or
knowledge of my
relationships with other builders or people in the
industry. There is
a great deal of comraderie and friendship. Even more,
we all have the
ability to appreciate each others work (and believe me
we love each
other's drums) while acknowledging that we each do
things our own way.
Craig Mazin : When you say your presence in this forum
is primarily as a
drummer, you're wrong, IMO. You might WANT that to be
the nature of
your presence, and you might INTEND that to be the
nature of that
presence.
That's right. In your opinion, now that we know who you
are. The
operative word here is primary. I was a drummer first.
Obviously I
have an interest as a builder, but it's runs secondary
- IM humble O
:)
Craig Mazin : I submit that regardless of what you
think and want, you are a man who
builds and sells drums to the members of this forum.
You comment most
often on threads involving the manufacture and sale of
drums. You are
not here primarily as a drummer. You presence here is
primarily as a
man who makes and sells drums to the drummers in this
group. There's
nothing wrong with that. It just think it should
inform the nature of
your
posting.
Thank you for telling me who and what I am. Now that I
know I am a man
I guess I can take off these patent leather pumps. My
feet were
killing me. I think I have sold 2, possibly 3 drums as
a result of
RMMP. What difference does it make? Don't answer :)
Craig Mazin : First, let's discuss your view of
"Joe Average." Why not strip away this euphemism and
just say, "stupid
drum buyers?" Or "the drum riff-raff?" Or "the
unannointed?" Rather
than dismissing Joe Average as just another schmuck
drummer who wants
to
build a snare himself rather than bask in the glory of
your admittedly
wonderful drums, why not treat this individual with a
little more
respect?
You obviously didn't read what I said very carefully or
chose to
misinterpret it. Thank you for putting more words in my
mouth. "Joe
Average" is a reference to someone who, because he has
discovered he
can buy wholesale parts, decides that he is going to
become
a"business" and starts his "business" by posting on
forums that he has
cheap parts. He doesn't have a store front, he doesn't
have a website,
he doesn't have a business license, business
cards...anything that
would constitute a legit "business". But what he IS
doing is damaging
legit small retail drum shops, small to medium
drumbuilders and a few
others who have made a substantial investment in those
businesses.
Craig Mazin : Here's where you really go off the rails.
Now, Joe Average is
getting
uppity enough to consider SELLING his drums to people.
Ronn, with all
due respect, if you can't find a way to compete with
other drum
salesmen, get out of the business.
I am not in competition with parts sellers anymore than
I am with DW.
And the "HE" you make reference to is not selling HIS
drums. In the
case we are discussing here the individual is selling
World Max drums
- unless of course, he peels the sticker off :) By the
way, a salesman
sells. If you had any retail experience you would
understand that
selling involves much more than just offering cheap
prices. Competition based solely on price takes
0 skill, 0 intelligence. A chimp - like the ones you
refer to on RMMP
- could do it :)
Craig Mazin : Tell me, Ronn. When you were building
your first drum, did you feel
illegitimate?
As a matter of fact, yes. It took years to develop a
relationship with
my suppliers.
Craig Mazin : It's absurd to suggest that anyone who
sells any legal
product at a legal price in a legal manner is anything
but a good,
honest, entrepreneurial American.
Oh yeah? Then why aren't we buying all of our sticks
and heads right
from the factory? We can all be legit retailers then
can't we? Try
calling Evans or Paiste and tell them you are in
business. Fill out
the forms. See what happens. World Max is soft when it
comes to
supplying parts and drums. They are an exception. And
that has sure
created a whole bunch of WorldMax entreprenuers.
Craig Mazin : Now, who is trusting wholesalers to
protect "genuine" retailers?
Guys
like you? Why is that at all good for US, the
drum-buying public?
Since when did the drum industry need anti-free-market
controls to
stifle the
small businessman? You are not a genuine retailer,
Ronn. You are a
retailer. It's a pointless discrimination, especially
given the size
of your business.
Dude you almost sound like you know what you're talking
about. If you
can't tell the difference between a guy with a
catalogue and a
computer sitting at home casually posting World Max
drums for sale on
a bulletin board (or ebay for that matter) at a 5% mark
up and a guy
who has invested his life or at least a good deal of
the bank's
capital in a store front or a shop, well, that's
unfortunate. Please
tell me about MIKE'S business. Is this a shop? Is this
a store? Is
this an online enterprise? Is there a business plan? Is
there a credit
line? Please, share you wisdom, because it didn't sound
to me like
Mike was really running a retail operation. If he is,
well, let's get
Ronn's patent leather pump out of his mouth.
Craig Mazin : No one has the right to be wrong or
correct. We're simply one or the
other--no privilege involved. You have the right to
THINK you're one
or
the other. I leave the ultimate evaluation up to the
big floating
Truth
pillar in the sky.
I see. I'm glad that I at least have the right to your
opinion. :)
Craig Mazin : I do not like feeling like an anonymous
whisperer
So you decide to ask someone else to whisper in my ear.
Craig Mazin : I am not a fool, and you are not an
asshole
You may now exercise your right to be wrong. I am very
much in tune
with my inner asshole. :)
As for you, you're a chimp, just like the rest of us.
TomDrums
Pete Pemberton
PP
"-MIKE-" <mi...@mikedrums.com> wrote in message
news:_mgd7.58188$k7.13...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Chris 'Coz' Costello
From what I can tell, any feathers you've ruffled don't even come
close to the Matt Gaither wars of years gone by. Any other RMMP
vets remember those? Awfully similar ingredients, now that I think
about it.
Jeez, now I sound like an old man. Get off my lawn, you damn kids!
Later,
COZ
NP: Miles Davis, _Steamin' with the Miles Davis Quintet_
--
"Hipness is transient. You've got to change in order to
be continually hip" -- Vinnie Colaiuta
"All drummers are crazy." -- Charlie Watts
Joby Foley
I am not sure why you ever got involved in any personal banter on this
site in the first place while representing a company trying to do business
with this very crowd you are engaging. Any repercussions will be because of
your own exposure on here positive or negative.
As for your evaluation of the market you are dead on correct. I have
been sighting this in several posts where it is so easy for someone to
produce a similar product to many other credible companies. This is part of
every line of business and the basis of our free market economy.
The supply chain will always expand. Either from increased growth to
existing customers or to an expansive customer base or both. You cannot
control the supply chain unless you buy it. You have no basis for requiring
the suppliers to be exclusive...especially in a non essentials market like
drum shells. The people who constantly seek out seperation from their
competition will have longevity. Keep your focus on what makes your product
unique and forget about everyone brawling over who is the best Keller shell
company.
My advice to you is to get a handle on your participation in here and
actively engage in the management of your business' total scorecard. Most
importantly your public image. Of 100% of the people who could potentially
buy your product, most will be deterred by the simplest of problem in
perception. What I see happening here is a simple mistake in overall vision
potentially putting the brakes on your companies growth. I have never seen
a drum company gain the level of notariety as fast as yours has. Don't fuck
it up.
Please understand I am trying to be helpful here. I am actively seeking
out my new snare drum and I still am considering one of your models.
Joby Foley
Glenn Dowdy
> > Wow, check the ego on this guy! :-) I NEVER lusted after your snares
Mike,
> > but I did sport wood a few times! :-)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Robert Schuh
>
> Then why the naked picture in the mail? :-)
>
George for a nekkid Pat?
Glenn D.
Rev. Poindexter
<mfel...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2001 23:52:40 GMT, n2...@aol.comNospam (TomDrums) wrote:
>
> >>Lok back in recent posts and see who uses the word chimp repeatedly and
> >>there's your culprit.
> >
> >What is Lok? I have scoured websters and cannot find this word?
>
> Look in the Japanese version of Webster's. :-)
Better yet, the Hebrew version. Isn't "lok" the singular of "lox"?
;)
RP
--
Rev. Poindexter (masquerading as Scott Logsdon)
poind...@subgenius.com
--- visit the Unofficial Sonor Virtual Museum ---
www.sonormuseum.com